The Derry City thread - Derry sign first four players

[Magicme]

Anyone got a link to it, didnt get any papers today.

[iceman]

Gloomy reading indeed:rolleyes:

[thischarmingman]

From When Saturday Comes:

http://www.wsc.co.uk/content/view/4010/38/

[Mr_Parker]

What difference does it make ? :confused:

If the existing DCFC is no different than the one that 'died' in 1972, only to ressurect 13 years later, then why would the current one be any different than a future one that stopped and instantly restarted as a different trading entity ?

Net - there's no diffference. Weak WUMming...


You seem to be confusing legal entity and trading name.

Per our membership of both the IFA and the FAI the club is Derry City FC. Always has been and hopefully always will be.

I'm not confusing anything. I think you would need to check up on the current IFA regulations as they do not allow such an easy differentiation between the trading and legal entities. ;)

[dcfcsteve]

I'm not confusing anything. I think you would need to check up on the current IFA regulations as they do not allow such an easy differentiation between the trading and legal entities. ;)

We'll worry about that if the need arises, Mr Mooty McMoot.

What is it that they put in the christmas hampers of Irish League fans - 'Eau de Conjecture' or something.....? :confused:

[OneRedArmy]

I'm not confusing anything. I think you would need to check up on the current IFA regulations as they do not allow such an easy differentiation between the trading and legal entities. ;)Good job we're not planning to play in the IL so.

[pineapple stu]

Back on topic - is there any confirmation that the Radio Foyle reports are correct?

[OneRedArmy]

Back on topic - is there any confirmation that the Radio Foyle reports are correct?
What Radio Foyle reports, that we are going into Division 1 next season?

Off the top of my head, that would need:
1) Us to form a new legal entity and buy the trading name off the liquidator
2) Find a way to pay off the IL creditors within the rules of the law
3) Put together a licensing application
4) Get a team and manager
5) An FAI Board meeting to consider our application

Whatever way you look at it there's months of work before we know for sure.

[EalingGreen]

You think the FAI are bad?

Whatever you think of John Delaney, he has probably done more, personally, for the club than the IL/IFA have in the forty odd years since the first time they wouldn't let us play in the Brandywell, against Anderlecht.

They weren't overly worried about there being no senior football in Northern Ireland's second city. Coleraine are tolerated, because they're part of the furniture, while the 'big teams' would rather the likes of Dungannon, Limavady and Institute played somewhere else (too far to travel don't you know). And of course they let Omagh Town feck off wither and die.A lot of woolly-minded, uninformed nonsense there, I think.
For one thing, when referring to "they", you blithely and incorrectly conflate the IL, IFA and "big clubs" in your determination to bad mouth senior football in NI.

More specifically, certain parties may not have been "overly worried" about DCFC having a place in senior football, but others were much more sympathetic - eg Glentoran assisting their efforts to join the LOI. Besides, things change over the decades, as demonstrated by another club from the second city, Institute, gaining a place at the top level.

As for Coleraine being "part of the furniture", what does that actually mean? That their presence a long distance from Belfast screws your other argument about "big clubs" not wanting to travel?

And as for Swifts, Limavady and Stute being "unwelcome" for being small or distant etc, that is patent balls. Otherwise why would the IFA/IL have adopted a pyramid system and licensing system etc, which allows for progression on footballing merit from Intermediate level via the Championship, to the top level, so long as minimum off-field standards are maintained?

Why would the IL Premier Division be 12 clubs, as opposed to 10 in the LOI? Why would a major provincial club like Portadown, reasonably close to Belfast, have had their Premier application rejected on a technicality, when clubs like Stute were in there? Why would a Belfast club like Donegal Celtic have been excluded, whilst a distant club like Swifts were accepted.

And as for Omagh Town, you clearly don't know the first thing about what went on at that club. Legal considerations prevent me from suggesting the real reasons for their demise (regretted by absolutely no-one, btw), other than to say that many feel their difficulties were more a matter for the RUC to investigate, than the IFA's to resolve.

And as for all the FAI/Delaney are doing for DCFC etc, that is a long way from what certain individuals at the very heart of the club were saying as recently as a week or two ago.

Things change, you know, even if they don't in the minds of certain other individuals...:rolleyes:

[EalingGreen]

We'll worry about that if the need arises, Mr Mooty McMoot.

What is it that they put in the christmas hampers of Irish League fans - 'Eau de Conjecture' or something.....? :confused:

If (either) DCFC is to play in the LOI next year, they have to be a member of their "home" National Association - in this case, the IFA.

And the IFA are liable to want to know exactly which "DCFC" is applying to join (or renew with) them - there is the little matter of debts to other IFA Members clubs to consider, after all.

Of course, DCFC and the FAI may attempt to ignore such niceties and who knows, they might even get away with it, but it is exactly this unwillingness to face facts and respect rules which keeps getting both into difficulties.

Still, why bother about all that, when you can deflect attention from it by snide comments, personal abuse and smart-alec remarks?

[dcfcsteve]

If (either) DCFC is to play in the LOI next year, they have to be a member of their "home" National Association - in this case, the IFA.

And the IFA are liable to want to know exactly which "DCFC" is applying to join (or renew with) them - there is the little matter of debts to other IFA Members clubs to consider, after all.

Of course, DCFC and the FAI may attempt to ignore such niceties and who knows, they might even get away with it, but it is exactly this unwillingness to face facts and respect rules which keeps getting both into difficulties.

Still, why bother about all that, when you can deflect attention from it by snide comments, personal abuse and smart-alec remarks?

EG - I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Wait.

And.

See.

What.

Happens......

[John83]

If (either) DCFC is to play in the LOI next year, they have to be a member of their "home" National Association - in this case, the IFA.

And the IFA are liable to want to know...
http://trinitypastor.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/broken_record.jpg

[OneRedArmy]

And as for Omagh Town, you clearly don't know the first thing about what went on at that club. Legal considerations prevent me from suggesting the real reasons for their demise (regretted by absolutely no-one, btw), other than to say that many feel their difficulties were more a matter for the RUC to investigate, than the IFA's to resolve.

And as for all the FAI/Delaney are doing for DCFC etc, that is a long way from what certain individuals at the very heart of the club were saying as recently as a week or two ago.

Things change, you know, even if they don't in the minds of certain other individuals...:rolleyes:The same legal constraints don't seem to bother you in relation to Derry City.

One rule for one a different one for the rest. Usual story as far as the IFA/IL goes in relation to Derry City.

You seem to like to dish it out but don't like getting it back. You know where you can go if you don't like it...

[MariborKev]

And as for all the FAI/Delaney are doing for DCFC etc, that is a long way from what certain individuals at the very heart of the club were saying as recently as a week or two ago.

Things change, you know, even if they don't in the minds of certain other individuals...:rolleyes:

The individuals who have departed the club with their reputations in tatters?

Why exactly would any store be placed in what they said.

The FAI raised the issue of the IL creditors last week at the meetings that were held. No one is ignoring anything. But sure you keep shouting away.

[dcfcsteve]

In that case, close down the entire forum; otherwise you'll have people posting on things like who's going to win the League next season, what clubs players are going to be signing for, how the ROI will do in Paris on Wednesday etc etc.

http://i4.bebo.com/047a/16/medium/2009/05/20/09/2091529839a10859573140m.jpg

Thankfully no-one else has the same absurd propensity that you do for repeating themselves ad nauseum over what is currently a moot point. Hence why the rest of the website works just fine.

Put the Kleenex back in the box and let's all just wait a few weeks and see what happens.

Final post on this - I've been bored into submission.

:ball:

[dcfcsteve]

There's no point arguing with DCFCSteve, he is one of them no f*ck all no it alls, who always thinks he's right.

I really wouldn't give much credence to what he posts and I sure as hell wouldn't bother having a sensible discussion with him as it really isn't possible, especially with his pedantry, smart a$$ remarks.

A "no f*ck all no it alls' .......!? :D

I certainly know more about spelling than you do anyway SB. :o

Thanks - that's cheered me up no end (and enabled me to temporarily break my desire to not post on this pointless arguement anymore).

Big kiss x

[Steve Bruce]

A "no f*ck all no it alls' .......!? :D

I certainly know more about spelling than you do anyway SB. :o

Thanks - that's cheered me up no end (and enabled me to temporarily break my desire to not post on this pointless arguement anymore).

Big kiss x

I forgot to mention when your not getting your way, you move onto spelling and grammar.;)

[John83]

... no actual provision in the IL Rules to deny a club "inheriting" membership in such circumstances!..


I wouldn't be so certain that the IL would even have you back...


..."DCFC2010" may not be permitted by UEFA to play in the LOI, or even 'A' League, for jurisdictional reasons.


... any new entity which replaces Wellvan may find it difficult to justify playing in the ROI or gain a licence for the IL.


...Any professional club has to be a Member of the Association within whose boundaries it is situated...

Therefore, if the IFA is of a mind to, I suspect it could either draw the new teams intention to apply to the LOI to the attention of UEFA for an adjudication, or possibly even prevent it altogether, since unlike 1985, any objection might not be considered unreasonable.


There are no longer any extraordinary reasons which would prevent them participating in the IL like every other NI club; therefore the principle that clubs should ordinarily compete in a League within their own National Association's jurisdiction should prevail (imo).


If I understand you right, are you saying that DCFC do not have to transfer their membership of an Association from the IFA to the FAI?

If so, then that much is true, for I'm pretty certain that any club which is located in NI has to be a Member of the IFA, whether or not they participate in an NI League. This explains why, for instance, Cardiff C and Swansea C are still both members of the FAW.

The issue in DCFC's case is twofold however (imo). Since the old DCFC/Wellvan is no more, then its membership of the IFA must presumably also have ceased to exist.
Therefore, any new club setting up in NI, regardless of the background circumstances of its incorporation, must presumably have to apply to the IFA for membership.

Thereafter, assuming that membership was approved, they presumably would have to seek permission, either from UEFA or the IFA (or both), in order to participate in a League outside the jurisdiction of their own Association.

Whether that permission is a mere formality, or would have to be substantively justified, I'm not sure. In principle, however, I feel it ought to be the latter.


So what you are saying is that the IFA and FAI should both turn a blind eye to the regulatory, even legal, status of the successor to DCFC?...

So you need only make good your obligations to those entities which may have the power to prevent you going merrily along your preferred path?
I guess it must be "To Hell" with any other small creditor who isn't in a position to object...

The topic of debate is a prospective football club which will be based in NI, playing its home games in NI and which it seems likely will have to be a member of the IFA in NI.
Meanwhile, it hopes to play its League football in another jurisdiction, which situation is ordinarily not allowed, so that it seems it should be obliged to receive at least an acknowledgement by UEFA/the IFA that it may do so in succession to the former DCFC, if not a brand new authorisation all of its own.


...I would not suggest that the IFA force DCFC to rejoin the IL "or else", at least without good reason.
But neither do I accept that they should just ignore what is going on at one of their (former?) Member clubs, either...


For if we really are talking about a new club, then the onus should not be on the IFA to show why it (club) may not play in another jurisdiction, rather it should be on the new club to show how/why it may.


If (either) DCFC is to play in the LOI next year, they have to be a member of their "home" National Association - in this case, the IFA.

And the IFA are liable to want to know exactly which "DCFC" is applying to join (or renew with) them - there is the little matter of debts to other IFA Members clubs to consider, after all.

You've made your point. Repeating yourself over and over and over to provoke a reaction is trolling.

[EalingGreen]

The same legal constraints don't seem to bother you in relation to Derry City.

If I posted what I (ahem) "strongly suspect" to be the case as regards Omagh Town, it would risk getting this forum closed down.

Where have I ever posted anything regarding DCFC which could be considered even remotely actionable?



One rule for one a different one for the rest. Usual story as far as the IFA/IL goes in relation to Derry City.
How so?
The IL didn't want DCFC in the IL back in the 1980's, so they weren't voted back in. Similarly, the IFA/IL didn't want OTFC*, in any shape or form, back in the IL, so no effort was made to get them back in.
You might have mentioned Portadown's application for membership of the Prem being rejected by the IFA solely for being submitted 29 minutes late, or Donegal Celtic's application being outscored by other clubs considered less "attractive"/"justified".
How is any of that "one rule for one a different one for the rest"?



You seem to like to dish it out but don't like getting it back. Dishing "what" out, exactly? Snide personal remarks? Refusing to answer direct questions? Don't think so, somehow.
As for "getting it back", I am not the one who keeps avoiding the issues in my posts.




You know where you can go if you don't like it...
Who's the one "who can't take it" now, then? Classy, real classy.

Anyhow, one of the reasons I like this forum is that it is well moderated; if I post anything which is out-of-order, it will be the Mods who direct me elsewhere, not some aggrieved poster who seemingly cannot bear to be reminded of certain uncomfortable truths about the team he supports.

* - Whatever point ANMouse was trying to make in his garbled post, his reference to OTFC made no supporting sense at all.

[EalingGreen]

The individuals who have departed the club with their reputations in tatters?

Why exactly would any store be placed in what they said.

The FAI raised the issue of the IL creditors last week at the meetings that were held. No one is ignoring anything. But sure you keep shouting away.
Note to DCFC Steve, ORA and others:
The above is an answer to a point which has been raised, whether it be a good reply or otherwise. It is such responses which allow for proper discussion on a message board.
Refusing to answer direct questions and choosing instead to make sarcastic remarks, or accusing the questioner of being repetitive or disruptive etc, even though he is merely trying to elicit a reply, does not.

[OneRedArmy]

If I posted what I (ahem) "strongly suspect" to be the case as regards Omagh Town, it would risk getting this forum closed down.For the very same reasons, a lot of what you are trying to drag out in terms of DCFC falls under exactly the same category, with the added complexion that the story is still playing out.

For this very reason DCchat was taken down by the owner for a period and new registrations are banned.There is a lot more to this than football rulebooks.

So the end result is that you get to hurl from the ditch, yet the points you raise can't be answered fully at this stage.

So instead of letting it play out, you keep raising the same issues, that most of us are well aware of (and frankly can't be sorted overnight) again, and again.

Why on earth are you doing this? Whats your motivation? And unless there's something you aren't disclosing, you aren't the official voice of the IFA/IL, so your views are only that, views.

[pól-dcfc]

Note to DCFC Steve, ORA and others:
The above is an answer to a point which has been raised, whether it be a good reply or otherwise. It is such responses which allow for proper discussion on a message board.
Refusing to answer direct questions and choosing instead to make sarcastic remarks, or accusing the questioner of being repetitive or disruptive etc, even though he is merely trying to elicit a reply, does not.

Note to members of internet forums: The above is a perfect example of how to appear smug and condescending on the internet.

[A N Mouse]

A lot of woolly-minded, uninformed nonsense there[b/], I think.
For one thing, when referring to "they", you blithely and incorrectly conflate the IL, IFA and "big clubs" in your determination to bad mouth senior football in NI.

Well you'd know all about that.


More specifically, certain parties may not have been "overly worried" about DCFC having a place in senior football, [b]but others were much more sympathetic - eg Glentoran assisting their efforts to join the LOI. Besides, things change over the decades, as demonstrated by another club from the second city, Institute, gaining a place at the top level.

All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing


Besides, things change over the decades, as demonstrated by another club from the second city, Institute, gaining a place at the top level.

Technically they don't play in the city, and it wasn't exactly easy for them to get there.


As for Coleraine being "part of the furniture", what does that actually mean? That their presence a long distance from Belfast screws your other argument about "big clubs" not wanting to travel?

Well you seem to be confused about Coleraine, did the IFA break their own rules, bend their own rules or rewrite their own rules after Coleraine went out of Business? - paying roughly a fifth of the approx 1.5 million they owed.


And as for Swifts, Limavady and Stute being "unwelcome" for being small or distant etc, that is patent balls. Otherwise why would the IFA/IL have adopted a pyramid system and licensing system etc, which allows for progression on footballing merit from Intermediate level via the Championship, to the top level, so long as minimum off-field standards are maintained?

Why would the IL Premier Division be 12 clubs, as opposed to 10 in the LOI? Why would a major provincial club like Portadown, reasonably close to Belfast, have had their Premier application rejected on a technicality, when clubs like Stute were in there? Why would a Belfast club like Donegal Celtic have been excluded, whilst a distant club like Swifts were accepted.

You seem awfully defensive about this. Yet this can typically be heard, from fans, on the radio, usually after a defeat. It has on occasion been heard from chairmen and managers, that these clubs don't belong in the league.


And as for Omagh Town, you clearly don't know the first thing about what went on at that club. Legal considerations prevent me from suggesting the real reasons for their demise (regretted by absolutely no-one, btw), other than to say that many feel their difficulties were more a matter for the RUC to investigate, than the IFA's to resolve.

Oh look the IFA washing their hands of something :p

Too bad they didn't heed the RUC's advice on the Brandywell.


And as for all the FAI/Delaney are doing for DCFC etc, that is a long way from what certain individuals at the very heart of the club were saying as recently as a week or two ago.

I refer you to MK's post


Things change, you know, even if they don't in the minds of certain other individuals...:rolleyes:

Yet you, by your wumming, are advocating that another generation of Derry people grow up to despise the IFA.

[passerrby]

I think its time both sides in this argument stop the speculation neither knows whats going to happen but both have aired thier views and time will make one of you feel very superiour while the other will not reply to anything for a while.

[pineapple stu]

Thread locked until such time as there's a further development. When it re-opens, can people stop dicsussing the same point over and over and over and over again, even when it's been refuted by people to whom it more directly relates?

[pineapple stu]

Going to re-open this thread now. A couple of groundrules -

1) The vast majority of Derry fans on here and, as far as I can see, on derrycitychat, want the culb to remain in the League of Ireland. Let's not have page after page on how they could reform in the Irish League.
2) Either a new Derry can play in the League of Ireland, or they can't. It's factual, and no amount of discussion, hypothesising, querying, investigating, precedentising or whatever will actually change that. So let's leave that issue aside too.

Any posts covering either of the above two will be binned, with infractions going for repeat offenders.

[Sam_Heggy]

Going to re-open this thread now. A couple of groundrules -

1) The vast majority of Derry fans on here and, as far as I can see, on derrycitychat, want the culb to remain in the League of Ireland. Let's not have page after page on how they could reform in the Irish League.
2) Either a new Derry can play in the League of Ireland, or they can't. It's factual, and no amount of discussion, hypothesising, querying, investigating, precedentising or whatever will actually change that. So let's leave that issue aside too.

Any posts covering either of the above two will be binned, with infractions going for repeat offenders.

I say, send them to the Irish League [cough] supporters forum [cough] where they have strickter rules and you will start on -20 posts with 6 infractions.

[Stiof]

Statement from the board of Wellvan Enterprises Ltd T/A Derry City FC

Date: 18th November 2009

As everyone will now be aware, all five directors of Derry City FC have moved aside to enable the already formed ‘steering committee’ to enter formal negotiations with the FAI, to seek a return to senior football for our club

A key part in the road map to return us to the League of Ireland was the announcement last week that we were prepared to stand aside, to ensure these negotiations could reach a successful conclusion as it was clear that the already formed ‘steering committee’ would be in a better position to achieve this goal

We would like to place on record our continued commitment to working with the ‘steering committee’ on all issues that require us to do so and confirm our support for this group to be successful in their negotiations, which we understand are progressing

In these clearly testing financial times its commendable that individuals within the ‘steering committee’ have pledged to provide not only practical help but also financial assistance which no doubt our club will need moving forward

We have already met with representatives of the ‘steering committee’ on a number of occasions and will continue to assist them as best we can to ensure a successful outcome for all

It’s of vital importance to the supporters of Derry City FC and the greater community of this city that senior football is returned on time for the commencement of the 2010 season and we’re fully committed to playing our part to ensure this happens

It’s also our moral duty to ensure all creditors of Derry City FC are not disregarded, as they stood by our club in recent times despite the obvious difficulties we were experiencing and it would be wrong now to simply sit back and disregard that contribution

We have therefore sought professional legal and insolvency advice as to how we can best address the issues at hand in an efficient and expedient manner

We will seek to appoint a firm with the correct experience and expertise that will result in the best possible outcome for our creditors, whilst also enabling the ‘steering committee’ to continue with their efforts to set up a new company, members club or other new entity and gain entrance for the start of the 2010 season to the League of Ireland

We therefore have two key objectives to complete as directors of Wellvan Enterprises Ltd T/A Derry City FC and those are outlined above and we confirm to supporters, sponsors, staff, volunteers and the greater community of Derry that we will honour these commitments and will work with all connected parties to achieve the best possible results

The very real human element in all of this must be at the forefront of any solutions that are subsequently implemented as there are individuals including players and staff, families, supporters and creditors with real genuine concerns and these parties are uppermost in our thoughts in these exceptionally difficult times

[OneRedArmy]

In case anyone can't read between the lines, the directors who wrote the statement and the creditors they are trying to help........are one and the same*.




*there are other creditors too

[passerrby]

they havent gone away ya know

[Doomofman]

It's just more of the same stuff really... No surprise people are looking for their money...

[passerrby]

question, if the board of derry city have stood down then how can they issue statements on behalf of derry city.
or have they moved sideways to allow some process to begin

[Kildareman]

How many of the 'original' 5 directors are now on the 'steering committee'?

[tiktok]

question, if the board of derry city have stood down then how can they issue statements on behalf of derry city.
or have they moved sideways to allow some process to begin

in fairness, it's a board of Wellvan statement.
Directors can't just step aside from a company in liquidation, there are laws which prevent that, or At least to punish those who try

[passerrby]

in fairness, it's a board of Wellvan statement.
Directors can't just step aside from a company in liquidation, there are laws which prevent that, or At least to punish those who try

not really up to speed on company law. so does that mean they stood down from the board of dcfc but are still the controllers of derry city through wellvan

[OneRedArmy]

How many of the 'original' 5 directors are now on the 'steering committee'?
None AFAIK.

[tiktok]

not really up to speed on company law. so does that mean they stood down from the board of dcfc but are still the controllers of derry city through wellvan

If a liquidator gas been appointed he's in charge, there may be differences North and south but a director couldn't Walk away from wellvan but could resign From the club board. Non company directors of wellvan could walk away from both boards as I understand it

[MariborKev]

Company should be in administration by COB.

[Mr A]

Things about to get very interesting once again.

[Mr A]

Derry Journal Article, an interview with the chair of the steering group: http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sport/Unpaid-City-staff-to-receive.5844191.jp

I wonder what happened with Dungannon's intention to wind up Wellvan.. it seems not to have come to pass.

Also, since DCFC are still owned by Wellvan and are now in administration, it would seem logical that if they are in the league next season the rule relating to examinership/ administration would ensure a points deduction. The expectation though is that there will be no such deduction. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

[pineapple stu]

Isn't part of the point of administration that you get protection from creditors? That'd mean no winding-up orders allowed.

[Mr A]

Absolutely yeah, but if it's only happening today I'd have thought Dungannon would have had time to get their spoke in first.

[OneRedArmy]

All creditors form an orderly queue, liquidator at the front, HMRC next, any preferential next, then the other poor buggers.

Oh and by the way, the only assets are contingent.

That is all.....

[Mr A]

Does Derry City FC count as an asset, will that be sold to the new setup?, or how does that bit work?

[OneRedArmy]

Does Derry City FC count as an asset, will that be sold to the new setup?, or how does that bit work?I should've said contingent and intangible.

I think what you've asked is the million dollar question. Its really a question for the liquidator to get the best value for all assets to try and make good the creditors as best possible.

[pineapple stu]

Surely the name is only of nominal - say £100 - value?

[OneRedArmy]

Surely the name is only of nominal - say £100 - value?
Depends how much the liquidator reckons he can get for it and how quick the successor club needs it (adding in the IFA complexity).

[passerrby]

a points deduction must happen

[Dodge]

Depends how much the liquidator reckons he can get for it and how quick the successor club needs it (adding in the IFA complexity).

If I was Finn harps I'd be trying to buy the name.

[Steve Bruce]

Surely the name is only of nominal - say £100 - value?

I'd say if you have 3 or 4 people wanting to be the next DCFC chairman with a bit of money in their pockets, they may get quite a bit for it.