The Derry City thread - Derry sign first four players [Archive] - Page 34

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Mr_Parker

13/11/2009, 6:39 PM

Because I haven't seen an agreement that states
1) Derry City would share Celtic's cost
2) what Celtics obligations were in respect of the squad they brought over.

Obviously I can't believe a thing that our former board said, so can you confirm that we are liable based on a written contract or was it a gentlemans agreement between Derry and Cliftonville?

Have you seen the same for the money owed to Dungannon and Linfield?

Mr_Parker

13/11/2009, 6:40 PM

Do we?

C'mon Parker, I asked you this question yesterday and It's not like you NOT to have an answer.

Sorry missed it. What was the question?

Krstic

13/11/2009, 6:43 PM

Sorry missed it. What was the question?

Are we still members of the IFA and do we have to continue to be so?
If we are, do we have a rep on any board?
I know Jack McCauley is our rep within the FAI.

Schumi

13/11/2009, 7:38 PM

This has been sidetracked into a debate over whether a new Derry City can play in the LOI or not. That's a red herring as it's of no benefit to anyone for the Irish League to prevent them playing in the LOI. Some deal will be done to pay the debts to Dungannon and whoever else.

What's of more concern is how Derry can by-pass the A Championship and play in the first division next year while walking away from all their debts. That a new Derry team should be given first call on the First Division place ahead of Tralee, Castlebar, Cobh, etc. is disgraceful.

Bascially what I'm asking is this: Is the Derry City that will play in next season's First Division a brand spanking new club which is setting off in it's first season, or is it the old club with all it's history under new ownership?
Like Shamrock Rovers, it will be the best of both worlds.

Must be fun in the lower league?

It's not bad for a short holiday every few years when you get bored of playing the same teams all the time.

-lamb-

13/11/2009, 7:56 PM

it's of no benefit to anyone for the Irish League to prevent them playing in the LOI.
depends if they played il football or be thran and close shop.
let's be honest here, derry city would probably be the 3rd biggest club at worst in the il and a worthwhile long term addition back to the ranks of clubs they really belong to in the first place.

geysir

13/11/2009, 8:04 PM

Back in the real world, it is clear, as stated above, that the biggest issue is the IL creditors.

Whilst the IFA probably has good right to object on other grounds, politically, there is no reason to. The IL has been happy with Derry not being members and the FAI has been happy to have them. Therefore, realisitically, unless there is a reason for someone to rely on the law to object, then there is no reason to open what would be a huge political can of worms.

However, the 3 IL clubs being creditors is a very good reason to object (I'm assuming C'Ville have a legal agreement that we would pay a portion of Celtics cost, otherwise its two IL creditors). Some way has to be found to make good this debt, otherwise the IFA is almost duty bound to object to NewCo joining the FAI, on behalf of its out of pocket members.

Solve that, and the other problems solve themselves IMO.

Not that that will stop Ealing Green constructing and destructing numerous arguments to the contrary. All on his own.

Derry FC are a bona fide LOI club. The IFA have no special claim over Derry.
In the matter of the outstanding debt of Derry to IL clubs, the IFA have just the same claim for retribution as they would have over any other bankrupt LOI club that owed money to an IL club.

Schumi

13/11/2009, 8:06 PM

depends if they played il football or be thran and close shop.
let's be honest here, derry city would probably be the 3rd biggest club at worst in the il and a worthwhile long term addition back to the ranks of clubs they really belong to in the first place.

If they don't want to play in the IL, as seems very clear from their fans' views here, there's no point in trying to force them. It'd only be looking for trouble.

Mr_Parker

13/11/2009, 8:07 PM

Do I really need to spell this out ? :eek:

"We" is Derry City FC.

And before you try to get smart arse - "we" still exist, and the FAI can't remove our IFA membership.

No, but the IFA can. :cool:

Mr_Parker

13/11/2009, 8:09 PM

Are we still members of the IFA and do we have to continue to be so?
If we are, do we have a rep on any board?
I know Jack McCauley is our rep within the FAI.

1. Yes and yes.
2. Not that I know of, but with over 800 members I would be surprised if every club had a rep on a committee.

dcfcsteve

13/11/2009, 9:30 PM

depends if they played il football or be thran and close shop.
let's be honest here, derry city would probably be the 3rd biggest club at worst in the il and a worthwhile long term addition back to the ranks of clubs they really belong to in the first place.

Moderators : Is it possible to dole out virtual exclusion orders to keep these dirty old Irish League men at least 100 virtual metres away from anything to do with Derry 'maiden' city ?

They're starting to scare more than just the kids now with their salivating obsession..... :eek:

dcfcsteve

13/11/2009, 9:31 PM

No, but the IFA can. :cool:

Indeed they can. And they could remove yours too. And any other club regiesterd with them. Isn't life fascinating.

Nedser

13/11/2009, 9:31 PM

Because I haven't seen an agreement that states
1) Derry City would share Celtic's cost
2) what Celtics obligations were in respect of the squad they brought over.

This might be veering slightly off-topic, but TBH I'm not sure what the topic is anymore, so anyway. I don't know whether there was a written agreement between DCFC and Cliftonville, but WRT to the 2nd question, it's very hard to believe that Celtic would have given any guarantee about what squad they would bring. It was an international weekend, which means Celtic could not have guaranteed the availability of any player who might have got an international call up (which is most of their squad).

dcfcsteve

13/11/2009, 9:49 PM

i did. interesting reading, but not sure just how relevant it is to derry city's position.
one difference i will mention is that all of those teams you mention (afaik) were all playing in another jurisdiction prior to uefa's foundation or else had no national league or fa of their own.
afaik many of those welsh teams were (not forgetting the fact wales didn't actually have a national league until the 90s, post-"derry city to loi" and at a time when uefa were starting to crack down on teams in other jurisdictions), as were the liechtenstein teams (plus no affiliated fa until the 90s), as were berwick rangers, as were gretna.

but that is not the case with derry city. they had a national league and are not a pre-uefa legacy quirk.

and this is a forum to discuss happenings, possibilities and opinions. people have every right to go on about it if they want. it's not anyone else's fault YOU don't want to hear about it tbh.

Lamb - the pre-UEFA legacy bit is irrelavent.

No - the important thing all these rather common 'exceptions' have in common is that they currently benefit from an exception to the rule. Regardless of why that exception originally arose, or the fact that for many of them the original driver behind their exception status is no longer valid.

And football being footbal - nay, life being life - once a club has the benefit of such an exception, no-one takes it off them. Note the FAW getting their ass kicked in the High Court when they tried to force the Welsh exile clubs playing in England back into the new Welsh league.

By your arguement - for example, once a new league existed in Wales, the special circumstances that enabled them to play in the English structure (lack of a proper Welsh alternative) were no longer valid, so the FAW was corrrect in trying to force them back. Only, the law didn't see it that way.

Likewise for DCFC. The original driver of our exception - the fact that the IFA/IL were unreasnable in theoir desire to not see us back in their set-up - is gone now. As shown by the trembling knee rubbing from every IL fan on here at the prospect of having us back in your league. Yet just like the Welsh exiles, the fact the original driver behind out exceptiion is gone means not a jot. As once an exception exists in football, it doesn't get taken away. Otherwise, the 4 UK nations would have lost their individual seats on the FIFA governing committee years ago - as that is football's less defensible and most unjust 'exception'.

So you see - it is all deeply releavnt to Derry City. And all that aside - if you can't see the relevance of the fact that European law has actively supported the rights of football teams from one jurisdiuction to play in another (even in the face of virulent opposition to it from their home FA) then you're beyond debating with.

Now please - enough of the covetous stalking.

cheifo

13/11/2009, 10:51 PM

corkharps

13/11/2009, 10:58 PM

-lamb-

13/11/2009, 10:59 PM

Lamb - the pre-UEFA legacy bit is irrelavent.

No - the important thing all these rather common 'exceptions' have in common is that they currently benefit from an exception to the rule. Regardless of why that exception originally arose, or the fact that for many of them the original driver behind their exception status is no longer valid.

And football being footbal - nay, life being life - once a club has the benefit of such an exception, no-one takes it off them. Note the FAW getting their ass kicked in the High Court when they tried to force the Welsh exile clubs playing in England back into the new Welsh league.

By your arguement - for example, once a new league existed in Wales, the special circumstances that enabled them to play in the English structure (lack of a proper Welsh alternative) were no longer valid, so the FAW was corrrect in trying to force them back. Only, the law didn't see it that way.

Likewise for DCFC. The original driver of our exception - the fact that the IFA/IL were unreasnable in theoir desire to not see us back in their set-up - is gone now. As shown by the trembling knee rubbing from every IL fan on here at the prospect of having us back in your league. Yet just like the Welsh exiles, the fact the original driver behind out exceptiion is gone means not a jot. As once an exception exists in football, it doesn't get taken away. Otherwise, the 4 UK nations would have lost their individual seats on the FIFA governing committee years ago - as that is football's less defensible and most unjust 'exception'.

So you see - it is all deeply releavnt to Derry City. And all that aside - if you can't see the relevance of the fact that European law has actively supported the rights of football teams from one jurisdiuction to play in another (even in the face of virulent opposition to it from their home FA) then you're beyond debating with.

Now please - enough of the covetous stalking.
all well and good.................but ONLY if your understanding of the similarities is actually the basis for any legal judgement. if not then your argument isn't as clearcut as you make it out and the differences between your club's and these other clubs' cases could have brought a different outcome.
is it just your opinion that situations that were pre-uefa or lack of domestic leagues made no difference, or do you know for fact that it made no difference?
is there any club that fitted neither of those scenarios that has won a case? i'm not saying i know for sure if it makes a difference, but i'm asking you if you know for sure that it doesn't?

Schumi

13/11/2009, 11:08 PM

Those this mean that the Derry city playing in the first Div next season have never beaten Harps?:cool:

For a month or two anyway.

Scrufil

13/11/2009, 11:22 PM

dcfcsteve

13/11/2009, 11:49 PM

So, if the 'old' Derry City is no more, does this mean that the 'new' Derry City is exactly that - a new club with no history. Does it mean that the 'old' Derry City is dead and that it's history died with it. Will it mean that the 'new' Derry City are founded/formed in 2009 and that all honours etc. are part of the 'old' Derry City - or is the 'new' Derry City just a continuation of the 'old' Derry City. Bascially what I'm asking is this: Is the Derry City that will play in next season's First Division a brand spanking new club which is setting off in it's first season, or is it the old club with all it's history under new ownership?

It's a non-question in fairness Harps1954.

Don't forget that our club arose from the ashes after a 13yr absence and joined an entirely separate league in a different footballing and political jurisdiction, yet that didn't affect any of our history, honours etc. So in your scenario, a quick change in legal trading terms would have no affect.

Claims on silverware in footbnall, only ever seem to be an issue when they're contested e.g. MK Dons asd AFC Wimbledon. And even in that case the Franchise agreed to relinquish all claims on Wimbledon's history and honours.

Sorry to disappoint. But at least you'll have the opportunity to try to undo oiut 98% undefeated record against Harps next season.... :)

VinnyDCFC

14/11/2009, 12:07 AM

The last few pages of this thread have been crazy reading to say the least

DCFC were forced to leave the IL in the 70's and over thirty years later it would appear that there are some on here that are suggesting that we are forced back into the IL again

culloty82

14/11/2009, 7:42 AM

Don't know how the actual process for re-admitting Derry works, but the fairest solution would be to ask both them and all A Championship teams to apply. Derry would win a unanimous vote on merit, and everything would be fair and above board.

Mr A

14/11/2009, 8:42 AM

Sorry to disappoint. But at least you'll have the opportunity to try to undo oiut 98% undefeated record against Harps next season.... :)

And we'll hold on to our 100% 'Never kicked out of the league for massive, systematic cheating' record.

Dodge

14/11/2009, 8:59 AM

Ah isn't the FAI a grand organisation altogether. Lie, cheat, spit, curse and fart on all the clubs around you if you are Derry City and what reward do you get? A little bit of a dressing down and a virtually free pass into the first division. Yet if you abide by the rules and run up some debt then feck off, wither and die if you are Kildare County.

That makes no sense at all. Kildare chose to feck off, Derry are fighting hard to stay alive.

I've always called on the FAi to be as hard as possibe with obvious cheating. Instant relegatin is fair enough for most "crimes" committed by our clubs, including Derry in this case. Kicking them out of the league serves no purpose whatsoever.

If they get their license, there's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be allowed in the first division.

A N Mouse

14/11/2009, 9:30 AM

Ah isn't the FAI a grand organisation altogether. Lie, cheat, spit, curse and fart on all the clubs around you if you are Derry City and what reward do you get? A little bit of a dressing down and a virtually free pass into the first division. Yet if you abide by the rules and run up some debt then feck off, wither and die if you are Kildare County.

You think the FAI are bad?

Whatever you think of John Delaney, he has probably done more, personally, for the club than the IL/IFA have in the forty odd years since the first time they wouldn't let us play in the Brandywell, against Anderlecht.

They weren't overly worried about there being no senior football in Northern Ireland's second city. Coleraine are tolerated, because they're part of the furniture, while the 'big teams' would rather the likes of Dungannon, Limavady and Institute played somewhere else (too far to travel don't you know). And of course they let Omagh Town feck off wither and die.

paudie

14/11/2009, 9:58 AM

That makes no sense at all. Kildare chose to feck off, Derry are fighting hard to stay alive.

I've always called on the FAi to be as hard as possibe with obvious cheating. Instant relegatin is fair enough for most "crimes" committed by our clubs, including Derry in this case. Kicking them out of the league serves no purpose whatsoever.

If they get their license, there's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be allowed in the first division.

Agree completely. It goes without saying that Derry City have been a tremendous asset to the LOI. They have been punished for rule breaking and restarting in the 1st division is appropriate.

Krstic

14/11/2009, 10:31 AM

Those this mean that the Derry city playing in the first Div next season have never beaten Harps?:cool:

No and what makes matters even more unfair, any points deduction we get will be off set by the usual 9 points we take from Harps;)

Mr A

14/11/2009, 10:37 AM

Surely this means that DCFC are out of the Setanta cup or will that be fudged as well I wonder..

Kildareman

14/11/2009, 10:59 AM

That makes no sense at all. Kildare chose to feck off, Derry are fighting hard to stay alive.

Dodge you surprise me. Or do you have a source for this statement?

I have read, I think it was on the official forum, that the problems of Kildare were brought to the FAI. AFAIK we had a meeting with the FAI informing them of the serious financial state the club was in.
But we were told the FAI couldnt help us so the club was left with no choice but to fold.

From what I remember this was taken from a local radio interview given by manager Joey Somerville.

Looking at the events in Derry we were definitely not treated in any way similar but merely pushed aside.

Wet fish in face...

Kildareman

14/11/2009, 11:10 AM

Its not the action towards the top "glamour" clubs but the obvious inaction towards the smaller clubs that p***es me off.:(

Mr_Parker

14/11/2009, 3:57 PM

This might be veering slightly off-topic, but TBH I'm not sure what the topic is anymore, so anyway. I don't know whether there was a written agreement between DCFC and Cliftonville, but WRT to the 2nd question, it's very hard to believe that Celtic would have given any guarantee about what squad they would bring. It was an international weekend, which means Celtic could not have guaranteed the availability of any player who might have got an international call up (which is most of their squad).

22 Celtic players were on international duty that weekend. Add to that the known injuries at the time and any notion that this was the reason that Derry called off the game because of the squad is rubbish. The game was called off because Derry didn't get of their arse and market the game. At the time it was cancelled, less than 48 hours beforehand, they had only sold circa 200 tickets. Derry knew exactly what calliber of player to expect on an International weekend when they agreed to play them on that date.

Mr_Parker

14/11/2009, 3:58 PM

Dodge

14/11/2009, 8:40 PM

Apologies Kildareman

However Kildare's problems aren't the making of the FAi and ultimately Kildare made the decision not to carry on. Derry haven't made that decision

Yet

SligoBrewer

14/11/2009, 9:16 PM

Surely this means that DCFC are out of the Setanta cup or will that be fudged as well I wonder..

Who cares?

Kildareman

14/11/2009, 10:38 PM

Apologies Kildareman

However Kildare's problems aren't the making of the FAi and ultimately Kildare made the decision not to carry on. Derry haven't made that decision
Yet

Neither are Derrys problems the making of the FAI but the FAI have chosen to help Derry as best it can.
It wasnt us who were caught cheating and possibly committing fraud.
Yet we are ignored.
I would be pretty sure the club would have accepted A League football for a clean bill of health.:mad:

OneRedArmy

15/11/2009, 12:21 AM

Depends on which club you are talking about. The existing Derry City or any possible new Derry City.You seem to be confusing legal entity and trading name.

Per our membership of both the IFA and the FAI the club is Derry City FC. Always has been and hopefully always will be.

Dodge

15/11/2009, 1:00 AM

dcfcsteve

15/11/2009, 11:09 AM

Depends on which club you are talking about. The existing Derry City or any possible new Derry City.

What difference does it make ? :confused:

If the existing DCFC is no different than the one that 'died' in 1972, only to ressurect 13 years later, then why would the current one be any different than a future one that stopped and instantly restarted as a different trading entity ?

Net - there's no diffference. Weak WUMming...

dcfcsteve

15/11/2009, 11:12 AM

Neither are Derrys problems the making of the FAI but the FAI have chosen to help Derry as best it can.
It wasnt us who were caught cheating and possibly committing fraud.
Yet we are ignored.
I would be pretty sure the club would have accepted A League football for a clean bill of health.:mad:

I know that you and a lot of people won't like the cold hard reality of this staement, but reality is that some clubs are considered worth saving and some are considered more important/essential to our league than others.

Anyone who doesn't think that is the case is deluding themselves as to the economic and political realities of football. It'd be the same in any league in the world.

If you don't like that reality being typed on a screen, then don't have a go at me for being the one who points it out.

The football romantic and the democrat in me dislikes the fact that that's the way football is. But the realist in me can see and understand it.

Kildareman

15/11/2009, 11:40 AM

Oh please Dodge theres 85 pages on the orchestrated fudge here. Do you really need it repeated.

I totally agree with Steve. Derry and other high profile clubs especially those in a city will always have priority over clubs like ours.
I am really making the point that we didnt just decide to pack it all in at a whim. An effort was made to survive but the tentacles of support couldnt stretch as far as Kildare.

OneRedArmy

15/11/2009, 12:39 PM

An effort was made to survive but the tentacles of support couldnt stretch as far as Kildare.We have a group of local businessmen who again are likely to inject money to get the new club going and possibly to pay off the IL clubs if required.

Do Kildare have the same? All the FAI have said is that they will support us if we have the will and the cash to start from scratch and put a team on the pitch.

From what I've seen Kildare have neither the will nor the cash to keep a team going?

Kildareman

15/11/2009, 1:21 PM

We have a group of local businessmen who again are likely to inject money to get the new club going and possibly to pay off the IL clubs if required.

From what I've seen Kildare have neither the will nor the cash to keep a team going?

I took it that the clubs debts are carried by the outgoing directors and not the "new" Derry city (small 'c';)).
Investing in the new club is one thing but I doubt very much that a group of local businessmen are willing to pay off other directors debts??

It is amazing how the will can return when the cash appears..:D

-lamb-

15/11/2009, 1:24 PM

are 2 of those local businessmen also on the steering group and also own 60% of the wellvan/derry city shares between them?

OneRedArmy

15/11/2009, 1:34 PM

are 2 of those local businessmen also on the steering group and also own 60% of the wellvan/derry city shares between them?So you read the papers as well?

-lamb-

15/11/2009, 2:26 PM

not about derry city, no.

thischarmingman

15/11/2009, 3:04 PM

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/derry-stood-for-more-than-football-1944007.html

We'd never seen anything like it. In the depressed Irish '80s, they were like visitors from another dimension. It was as though the League of Ireland had suddenly been transformed into a different competition altogether, for one Sunday and one Sunday only at your local ground

Aaron

15/11/2009, 3:08 PM

are 2 of those local businessmen also on the steering group and also own 60% of the wellvan/derry city shares between them?

Why ask that question here when I posted that on ILS;)

Riddickcule

15/11/2009, 3:14 PM

The Loi is well and truely ******ed...

-lamb-

15/11/2009, 4:08 PM

Why ask that question here when I posted that on ILS;)
hello aaron(?) :p
actually, nightmare partially dragged it out eventually.
but always best to double check. all derry city info needs confirmed elsewhere otherwise who knows what nonsense you might end up being suckered into believing. ;)
plus, it disseminates interesting info to parties who otherwise may not have known.

Riddickcule

15/11/2009, 4:18 PM

Did anyone read the long article about the state of the loi in the sunday times today?

It was in the business section, very thorough and many figures and facts.

-lamb-

15/11/2009, 4:35 PM

i'm just sitting down with the sunday times right this second actually.