The Derry City thread - Derry sign first four players

[Mr_Parker]

No, as season is already over, all results stand, but derry are removed from the league table. Top and Bottom of the table would still look the same.


As the season has been completed, Derry's results stand. So say the FAI.

In the IFA Articles of Association, even if all the games are finished, the official end of season date is the 31st May. If something comes to light in the period between the last game and that date it would still have an impact. Do the FAI not have a similar rule?

For example, let's say the league has gone down to the wire between two teams and the day after the last games it is found that a player was found to have been ineligible a scored the winner that one one of the teams the league. This isn't found out until a few days after the league finished when the refs report etc is sent in. So that would just be tough? Somehow I don't think so.

[dcfcsteve]

Yes, you could see their massive fanbase over the last few months. Don't be so naive. The bandwagoners are gone now. Derry will get a similar crowd to us next year in the 1st Division.

Well we managed a bigger crowd than you in the Premier Division, even when you were top of the league......:o

[Martinho II]

I am devastated for Derry City Fc as longford town fc have wonderful memories of playing them from the mid eighties cup matches to the city fans sitting on the dressing rooms roofs at abbeycartron! It will be hard to get back to the league of ireland but for the sake of soccer I hope that Wellvan will be dissolved get rid of the nastiness around the club and start again.. It did Limerick a world of good starting all over again.. McDiaid has an awful neck on him.

Hopefully things will work out for them..

[EalingGreen]

EG,

The details transferred from Derry City FC to Wellvan in 94, and possibly could transfer again.

Very possibly, though the entity which Wellvan took over had not been been thrown out of the LOI, which difference may be critical.


EG,
The rest of the post once against smacks of egotistical nonsense.What on earth is "egotistical" about any of it? :confused:
And as for "nonsense", you may not like or agree with it, but neither have you refuted my suggestion that any new entity which replaces Wellvan may find it difficult to justify playing in the ROI or gain a licence for the IL.

[EalingGreen]

Why say "I am not sure if Derry will be playing under the FAI or IFA in the future" in seventeen words, when you can say it in 824?
Because if I were to say it in those terms, DCFC fans would either dismiss it, or demand I back it up.

As I said to Maribor Kev, if what I am saying is incorrect, illogical or prejudiced etc, why not demonstrate how, rather than just "playing the man"?



And EG - what's this obsession you have with "DCFC2010". You are the only person I have seen using this abortion of a name.Oh ffs! It's just shorthand - i.e. quicker than typing "the new Derry City" or somesuch.
I'd have thought DCFC fans had somewhat more to worry about than that. :rolleyes:

[Mr_Parker]

Not sure if this has been asked or mentioned but are all the results void versus Derry and the points going to be reallocated accordingly?


No, as season is already over, all results stand, but derry are removed from the league table. Top and Bottom of the table would still look the same.


As the season has been completed, Derry's results stand. So say the FAI.


In the IFA Articles of Association, even if all the games are finished, the official end of season date is the 31st May. If something comes to light in the period between the last game and that date it would still have an impact. Do the FAI not have a similar rule?

For example, let's say the league has gone down to the wire between two teams and the day after the last games it is found that a player was found to have been ineligible a scored the winner that one one of the teams the league. This isn't found out until a few days after the league finished when the refs report etc is sent in. So that would just be tough? Somehow I don't think so.



Just had a look at the FAI rulebook.....seems all is not clear cut.


RULE 39. PLAYING SEASONS
(a) The Winter Season shall be 1st August ending 31st May except for competitions under the auspices of the
SFAI which shall end the 30th June.
The Summer Season shall be 1st March ending 30th November
The Current Season shall be defined by the calendar year in which every League commences

Surely the FAI have to follow their own rules?

[EalingGreen]

Why don't you and your bluenose buddies toddle off to discuss your great league elsewhere. We're not interested in merging with anyone.

If you replaced Derry City with "girl" and Irish League fans with "men in raincoats", you'd all be charged with stalking and subject to an exclusion order.
"How to Win Friends and Influence People", eh? :rolleyes:

P.S. My "bluenose buddies"? :eek:

[John83]

Surely the FAI have to follow their own rules?
When Dublin City made like a banana, their results for the full round of fixtures they had completed remained. This is consistent. Frankly, I don't think it changes the table any, so who the heck cares?

[pineapple stu]

When Dublin City made like a banana, their results for the full round of fixtures they had completed remained.
Nope; all their results were expunged.

[Mr_Parker]

When Dublin City made like a banana, their results for the full round of fixtures they had completed remained. This is consistent. Frankly, I don't think it changes the table any, so who the heck cares?

It may not change anything but demonstrates that the FAI need to think before they speak. They can hardly preach rules to others when they don't even know their own rules.

[Mr A]

I think it's the participation agreement which is the issue here- that's the contract that they terminated.

[Celdrog]

Nope; all their results were expunged.There is a rule somewhere that when a certain percentage of games are completed the results stands and clubs are then awarded points on the percentage basis of points won in the games against the expunged club (bit like the duckworth lewis in cricket).
With Dublin City they went early in the season they had only played a few games so the results were scrapped.
The FAI are being consistent here.

[pineapple stu]

There is a rule somewhere that when a certain percentage of games are completed the results stands and clubs are then awarded points on the percentage basis of points won in the games against the expunged club (bit like the duckworth lewis in cricket).
Is that a rule, or is it just an urban legend?

I think Dodge posted it first that I saw; I wonder at times if it's like the 54321 jersey sales...

[OneRedArmy]

"How to Win Friends and Influence People", eh? :rolleyes:

P.S. My "bluenose buddies"? :eek:I'm not trying to do either.

I'll state it clearly again: the will of the vast majority of our fanbase is to remain in the LoI, at the highest level we can and to explore every opportunity we can to do that.

If, despite our best efforts, that isn't possible, then I suppose we'd look into alternatives. However all our efforts at the minute are in achieving the former, and even if the LoI is ruled out, you'd have a large percentage of support who have zero interest in supporting Derry City in the IL.

No matter how you dress it up, you have re-phrased essentially the same post for the last two or three weeks numerous times. You get a broadly consistent answer back, repeatedly, and yet you keep asking it ad nauseum.

Ask it again if and when the LoI don't let us back in, but until then, its a moot discussion.

[pineapple stu]

No matter how you dress it up, you have re-phrased essentially the same post for the last two or three weeks numerous times. You get a broadly consistent answer back, repeatedly, and yet you keep asking it ad nauseum.
Have to agree with this. Can we leave aside speculation as to whether Derry should rejoin the IL and move on?

[Angus]

I would be devastated if this happened to a club I support and I would probably be very annoyed with those responsible

And I know that UCD is in a unique environment with the facilities and the assembly line of players, but what did we expect ?

This is precisely what we have been criticising the FAI for not doing - and it is one of those occasions when it is very unfair on the club getting hit first because of the unpunished precedent elsewhere - but unfortunately it happens that way sometimes

One occasion where I have to agree with the FAI's response

[thischarmingman]

This was posted on our forum today by themed. The user who posted it joined the forum today, and has made two posts so far, this being one of them. That is not in any way to undermine them, just covering myself and letting everyone on this forum draw their own judgement based on the same facts as we have on ours. Make of it what you will, I'm sure official reports will be in the media soon enough.


i went along to the press conference today and agree that the so called local journalist failed to ask the pertinent questions! Pat mc daid was flanked by solicitor Des doherty, and 2 other board members. Forgive me if i get the dates wrong. Pat said that he received a phonecall from an FAI official tuesday evening inviting them to dublin on wednesday regarding help with ongoing difficuties. He stated the FAI official said they should come down as the FAI have experience with clubs in financial difficulties and they would offer advice before the board made any decision they later regret. He emphasised that the FAI official told him they would be among footballing friends! Pat attended a meeting on wednesday with the vice chairman and four FAI officials which lasted 3 hours approx.

Pat stated their was no mention of players contracts during this meeting apart from a passing comment in the last 5 mins of the meeting regarding players contracts 20 yrs ago when he was 12! It moved on to Saturday then when Derry were summoned to meet the FAI in Dublin. John delaney then seemed to take draconian measures in Dublin. Des doherty spoke that no formal charge was labelled at Derry city and they were in a room with 17 officials from the FAI. Des stated he could see a4 paper in front of the officials and asked could he see the paperwork on behalf of his client, he was refused. He stated they were not allowed to question the FAI officials.

He stated he was involved in high profile legal matters throughout the world (bloody sunday,Iraq) and that the way business was conducted beggered belief. He went on to talk about a players contract which he would not name. He said that players contracts are lodged and stamped with the FAI. I need to be careful from this point on as i dont want to mislead anybody. From what i understand a player had a contract which was replaced 11 days later with another contract which was lodged and stamped with the FAI. Des stated that the official contract states that any previous agreement between the two parties was null and void. If anybody was at the press conference and read this point differently, please post and if i got it wrong apologies in advance.

Des went on to state that they were left sitting in the room for 2 hours before the FAI returned and expelled derry from the league. He went on to state that John delaney refused them access to the later press conference and when he asked Mr delaney for the 60,000 euro for finishing fourth to help pay the players, Mr delaney told him they were not getting it. Des stated that on Monday morning he will start legal proceedings from his office with regard to money owed and pat stated they will also be challenging the expulsion also.

[sheao]

Very sad news to hear Derry being thrown out of the league, this are a vital part of the league and add an awful lot to it. I really hope that they can come to some agreement with the FAI to have some involvement in the LOI.

[hedderman]

It's very interesting from a legal perspective. I don't know anything about Sports Law and don't know how they are planning to challenge the meeting. It's interesting to note that the initial statement last night on the club's website was very vague:

"We are currently exploring any possibility of any type of appeal procedure within the FAI or via a court of law in Dublin or Belfast."
http://www.derrycityfc.net/cityweb/

From the post above, it appears that the FAI may have not have completely covered themselves legally. If the FAI had been an administrative tribunal, I think it would be highly likely that Derry City would be able to institute judicial review proceedings against them. How that would work in the FAI's case, given that they are not a government organisation, I do not know.

I can understand the reasoning behind taking legal proceedings, given that the FAI are not going to pay the club money for 4th place and the European participation money is in jeopardy also. I don’t know where Derry will get the money to bring the matter to court though.

Whether a court case will be for the good of the club either, it is difficult to tell. It may well hinder the creation of a new entity and add more difficulties in an already divisive situation.

[cestlavie]

With respect, that's a load of cr*p and Pat will tell you that himself

Do you think Pat was likely to stay when all he got from a section of the DCFC support was abuse, Frodo et al. I witnessed it myself and Im sure you did too, he knew where he stood.

[WoodquayBoy]

I thoguth Ealing Green made some good points. Just because Derry fans don't want to go down the IL route does not mean it won't happen - I''m sure none of them wanted to be run by a bunch of cheating scumbags, and look what happened.
Just because ye don't agree with the man doesn't mean he is wrong

[MariborKev]

I thoguth Ealing Green made some good points. Just because Derry fans don't want to go down the IL route does not mean it won't happen - I''m sure none of them wanted to be run by a bunch of cheating scumbags, and look what happened.
Just because ye don't agree with the man doesn't mean he is wrong

WQB,

He hasn't a clue what he is talking about.

Has he been to a DCFC AGM where it was discussed, what is his back up on it. As I said before, it is unrequieted love.

[brendy_éire]

Just because Derry fans don't want to go down the IL route does not mean it won't happen

Yes, it does.

The vast, vast majority of fans don't want it. It's not an option. We'll never, ever go back to them.

[WoodquayBoy]

Fair enough lads, just playing Devil's Advocate (how hot was Connie Nielsen in the nip in that film btw?!?!?! Lars Ulrich is one lucky sod). My point is, Derry fans don't want to go down the IL route . . . but what happens if they have no choice?

[A N Mouse]

Fair enough lads, just playing Devil's Advocate (how hot was Connie Nielsen in the nip in that film btw?!?!?! Lars Ulrich is one lucky sod). My point is, Derry fans don't want to go down the IL route . . . but what happens if they have no choice?

Two men and a drum?

[Scrufil]

Aside from the actually Derry City Club itself and its woes is there to be any sort of ban or fine put on players who had double contracts? I would think there must be some sort of ban placed on these players who knowingly cheated.

[L.T.F.C.]

Aside from the actually Derry City Club itself and its woes is there to be any sort of ban or fine put on players who had double contracts? I would think there must be some sort of ban placed on these players who knowingly cheated.

if your employer asked you to do something underhanded, would you put your job in jeopardy in this economic climate?

[Scrufil]

I'm barred from working at present so I can't answer that question. Anyway no-one ever offered me extra money ever so its a stupid question.

[Paddyfield]

From Irish Times 09 Nov 2009

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2009/1109/1224258392628.html


Derry threaten court action

EMMET MALONE Soccer correspondent


DERRY CITY will this morning seek payment of money the club insists it is owed by the FAI for finishing fourth in the league this season, with club officials warning yesterday that, if it is not paid immediately, it will go to court to prevent any of the Premier Division’s other clubs from being paid.

The club was told at the meeting on Saturday in Abbotstown, where it was expelled from the league, that it was not due the €60,000 prize for finishing fourth as it was no longer a member of the league. But club solicitor Dessie Doherty will now press for immediate payment in what could be just the first instalment of a battle sparked by the disciplinary measure taken against City by the association over the weekend.

In an emotional meeting with journalists after Saturday’s hearing, club chairman Pat McDaid described the proceedings as “a kangaroo court” which had reached a “predetermined conclusion”.

Claiming that the club had been refused access to some of the documentary evidence upon which the FAI had relied in reaching its decision, McDaid said City had “not received any natural justice”.

He said the club would challenge the decision in any way open to it in the courts, north or south of the Border. And he maintained that the second contract held by a player (Darren Quigley) which lies at the heart of the issue was merely a temporary measure intended to provide some security for both parties until a proper, longer-term agreement could be signed.

“We’re talking about a contract that was in place for less than two weeks,” he said. “It was a holding contract until a proper registration could be put in place – and the FAI have seen fit to put Derry City out of football for that.”

City claim that, as that contract predates the official “standard player’s contract” which contains a clause invalidating any pre-existing agreements, the offending document was invalid from the time the “proper” one was signed.

The case against them centres on claims that all of the club’s players had such second contracts and that the terms of these side deals were being honoured until money at the club ran out at the end of the summer.

It is alleged that at a meeting between four FAI officials and two from City last Wednesday, the charges were effectively admitted, but this appears to have been disputed by the club on Saturday.

According to City’s version of events, they were invited to the meeting at the weekend which they were not in any way led to believe might adjudicate on the case. It was, they claim, only after the meeting had started that it began to become apparent that it was “a hearing”.

Doherty, a prominent solicitor in the city who has been involved in many high-profile northern criminal cases, the long-running Bloody Sunday inquiry and even played a part in the defence of Saddam Hussein, said afterwards that he had never been treated so “abominably”.

FAI chief executive John Delaney said that he had “felt sick” as the decision to expel Derry from the league had been taken. But he insisted that, on the evidence before it, the association had had no choice but to punish the club for serious breaches of the rules.

City officials, he said, had “freely admitted that over 20 players had been given contracts which differed substantially and materially with the ones that were held in private. It is disappointing to hear a denial of that now, because it is just not true.”

The club were told on Saturday that if they cooperated fully in relation to the charges from this point on then the association would meet it this week to discuss at what level below the premier league City might be allowed to re-enter the league next season.

Things may not now go quite that smoothly, as the issue of prize money could lead to a wider challenge of the sanctions imposed on the basis of a claim that there was an absence of fair procedures.

Stephen McGuiness, the general secretary of the PFAI, said yesterday he expected the association to pursue all of the players involved, and suggested the union would not represent the players in disciplinary proceedings because of the nature of the offences.

After a string of impressive performances that helped his side towards top-flight safety and a place in the FAI Cup final, Sligo Rovers striker Rafaelle Cretaro has been named the Soccer Writers’ Association of Ireland Player of the Month for October.

Cretaro scored five times during the month.

“It’s gone well, better than I would have expected,” Cretaro said. “If you had told me at the start of the season that I’d score 21 goals, I would have laughed at you, but my game has gone from strength to strength.”

[OneRedArmy]

Unless Derry have found someone to bail out Wellvan to the tune of £750k, taking this action actively reduces our chance of putting a team on the pitch next season.

I suppose the need to clear peoples names outweighs the greater good......:rolleyes:

[dortie]

Unless Derry have found someone to bail out Wellvan to the tune of £750k, taking this action actively reduces our chance of putting a team on the pitch next season.

I suppose the need to clear peoples names outweighs the greater good......:rolleyes:

If there is indeed substantial evidence of 2nd contracts with over 20 players then it will be interesting to see the banning orders dished out to each and every player who signed them knowing they were illegal.

If the FAI have the evidence then in actual fact the legal actions will implicate the entire playing staff rather than clear names.

The only good thing out of it will be the truth, as everything will come out in the open.

[OneRedArmy]

If there is indeed substantial evidence of 2nd contracts with over 20 players then it will be interesting to see the banning orders dished out to each and every player who signed them knowing they were illegal.Stephen McGuinness' comments on not representing the players was interesting.

In any other walk of life a union generally defends employees whatever the allegation. Would back up the accusations that the PFAI are not just physically close to the FAI.

[Mr A]

The thing that strikes me about the noise coming from the Wellvan board is that they have very little choice but to do what they are doing. There could be serious legal implications for them personally if they cannot refute the allegations that have been made, especially if tax has not been paid on the secondary contracts. Also, there's probably a natural inclination to save face. The complaints to date seem to be about process rather than the substance. I may have missed it, but they haven't come out and unequivocally said that there were no secondary contracts.

Given that they have been blaming players, media etc for the issues for some time now, it's little surprise that it's the FAI's turn now.

[Derry]

Can anyone tell me why would the directors of Derry City voluntarily say they had 20 players on secondary contracts. What would be their reason for saying so?

[Mr A]

Because they knew the FAI knew and they were hoping for leniency?

[Macy]

Stephen McGuinness' comments on not representing the players was interesting.

In any other walk of life a union generally defends employees whatever the allegation. Would back up the accusations that the PFAI are not just physically close to the FAI.
A union would represent their members, not necessarily defend. The way I heard him on Radio 1 yesterday, was they wouldn't defend the actions. I'd be surprised if they could wash their hands of them completely as suggested - they were/ are affiliated to SIPTU, and if they use the same rule book I don't see how they could do that. However, nothing would surprise me with the PFAI...

[Roo69]

Personally i can't see how the FAI would kick Derry out of the League WITHOUT having stone wall evidence that Derry were giving players 2 contracts to sign. That would lead me to say the following... Derry have some ****ing cheek looking for prize money for 4th place and lost revenue's for Europe next season.

IMO, and as i have said befiore, i really feel sorry for the fans having to go through this, but as a club they deserve what has happened.

One thing i really had to laugh at was McDaid saying the FAI had put Derry's very existance in doubt and that there was a serious agenda going on somewhere....

[gufct]

I have tremendous sympathy for all DCFC Supporters over what has happened but I feel that the Board of DCFC have let them down and any sympathy for the club will be eroded if they dont face up to the facts and take their punishment.

Pat McDaid looks like someone who will try and face this down rather than trying to work on a solution that will mean a future for LOI soccer un Derry.

[refjohn]

I am not an expert on bankruptcy laws and they are different in UK. But does being on board of a bankrupt Limited Company not prevent you from being on board of another? Several members of Derry's board own their businesses so if this is true I can see why they are fighting tooth and nail to keep Wellvan and DCFC afloat.

[blue til i die]

McDaid labels FAI treatment "shameful and disgusting" following expulsion

An expected one hour meeting in the FAI Headquarters in Abbottstown on Saturday ran for nearly four and a half hours, before the decision to expel Derry City from League of Ireland football was announced.

Immediately following the ruling, a devastated and emotional Derry City chairman, Pat McDaid, described the treatment of their club as “absolutely shameful and disgusting”.

More: http://www.extratime.ie/newsdesk/articles/2764/

[Hulsey]

if your employer asked you to do something underhanded, would you put your job in jeopardy in this economic climate?

In a nutshell yes they should have. They could have decided to not sign the illegal contracts and signed for another club who may not have offered them as much, but at least it would have been legal. If they weren't paying tax on the 2nd contracts then they are going to end up in trouble. Hope for the players sakes that they were

[pineapple stu]

You'd wonder would none of them at least have checked this with the PFAI before signing.

[Mr_Parker]

Can anyone tell me why would the directors of Derry City voluntarily say they had 20 players on secondary contracts. What would be their reason for saying so?

I'm guessing on this one, but maybe they divided the reported 200k owed over 8 weeks to get the weekly wage bill on one hand and then on the other took the 20 contracts the FAI had and added them togther and when they compared them there was a gap?

[dcfcsteve]

Fair enough lads, just playing Devil's Advocate (how hot was Connie Nielsen in the nip in that film btw?!?!?! Lars Ulrich is one lucky sod). My point is, Derry fans don't want to go down the IL route . . . but what happens if they have no choice?

Here's a crazy idea.

How's about we worry about that if and when the event arises, eh ?

Please don't go down the EG route of putting yourself on repeat and asking a speculative question ad nauseum.

Let's all just move on from the 'what if' game and come back to it if and when it becomes a proposal.

Simples. :cool:

[Magicme]

I am not an expert on bankruptcy laws and they are different in UK. But does being on board of a bankrupt Limited Company not prevent you from being on board of another? Several members of Derry's board own their businesses so if this is true I can see why they are fighting tooth and nail to keep Wellvan and DCFC afloat.

I would say there are also worries about the implications if they are found guilty of fraud. That would not only impact on Derry City FC but on the individuals involved.

Feel sorry for them because even if they have done something wrong, they did so due to their love of Derry City FC and its heartbreaking to know that some very good footballing people may be lost to our league. Only Derry City really know what went on.

[RoversHead]

Im amazed at the new found credibility being attributed to the FAI over this issue.No matter what the alleged crime it was a kangaroo court,the speed and tenacity shown by the FAI in this case begs belief when compared to their unwillingness to give even a scant look at the books elsewhere.One club ignores the 65% rule completely and will be rewarded with 250,000 euro to cover it up while another club (dont even start me on Cork)Derry City are turfed out of the league and not paid their prize money because of contract overlapping:confused::confused::confused:

[leo120408]

As a Derry City fan _ I dont think the FAI have much wrong to be fair - our chairman has been lying to us fans over a lot of stuff for the last few months.

I am disappointed he is threatening court action ( which is a joke - as how will we be able to afford it !) when he should be on his knees begging John Delaney to allow us in the first division.

We have been in the wrong and have to face the consequences - they admitted to the FAI last week about the dual contracts now they seem to be backtracking and looking very stupid in the process.

[Steve Bruce]

Here's a crazy idea.

How's about we worry about that if and when the event arises, eh ?

Please don't go down the EG route of putting yourself on repeat and asking a speculative question ad nauseum.

Let's all just move on from the 'what if' game and come back to it if and when it becomes a proposal.

Simples. :cool:

Couldn't put that better myself. Whilst I have asked the question in the past, I'm not overly concerned one way or another. The IL has stability as it stands and has existed long than most other leagues in the world, so either way we'll continue as we have done

[Mr_Parker]

Has anyone got a link to the Participation Agreement refered to by the FAI statement?

[RoversHead]

Im not defending the DCFC board and only when the FAI show the same speed and tenacity dealing with the other cheats in the league will I afford them any credibility.