eircom League in Europe - 2008

[CuanaD]

3 great draws IMO - all interesting games difficult to predict.
Drogs got one of the 2 most difficult teams they could have drawn from the non-seeds - the other was BATE
Pats & Cork got 2 of the easiest from the seeds.

None of these will be easy games - all 6 teams will be hopeful of progression.
I don't think that any game will be won by more than 2 goals on agg. - best anyone could really hope for would be an away draw & home win.

IMO these teams are all at a similar level to our eL teams & IF we were to win all 3 ties, that would show a real progression in European terms. Realistically 2 wins 2 draws & 2 defeats would be our level IMO (or 1-4-1, either way one coefficiant point) - so I'm hoping for better!

[Boo_Boy]

Sorry if this is in the wrong thread. I don't follow the Eircom League at all.

My question is, who qualified from Ireland for the Champions League? What stage of the qualifiers do they go in at? Who, when and where do they play their first two matches?


Thanks very much, and please excuse my ignorance. I live in North America.

Stephen Colbert?, is that you?!:p

[HarpoJoyce]

Copenhagen...that's rough!
Zagreb..... dido!

Is she playing a concert at the same time Linfield will be there...they get everything!


Sorry if this is in the wrong thread. I don't follow the Eircom League at all.

My question is, who qualified from Ireland for the Champions League? What stage of the qualifiers do they go in at? Who, when and where do they play their first two matches?


Thanks very much, and please excuse my ignorance. I live in North America.

I don't know if anyone answered you Stephen however,
(1) Drogheda Utd. will play CL home games at Dalymount Park (HoIF) in Dublin.
(2) Qualifying Round 1, at the beginning. There are 3 Qualifying rounds untill the Group Stages.
(3a) Levadia Talinn, Estonia (more talented sister to Flora and Gloria Talinn)
(3b) Drogheda Utd. were drawn out of the hat first but UEFA.com still have dates to be determined. http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/index.html
The expected date of all ties is 1st leg 15/07/2008
2nd leg 23/07/2008
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/fixturesresults/index.html


The above www.UEFA.com website is recommended to familarise yourself with the goings on over here. In the top right-hand corner is a drop-down 'Competitions' list. (hours of fun).

[bigmac]

Prediction time so...
I think that a realistic enough prediction is that we'll get 1.333 pts this year - 3 wins and 2 draws in total. As regards the overall coefficient, here's what I think.
Last year, Ireland was ranked 35th in Europe. Teams immediately ahead of us are Bosnia-Herzegovina, Moldova, Lithuania, Latvia, Finland and Hungary (because they're losing such a huge score)
By dropping such a measly coefficient from 5 years ago we automatically gain an advantage over Bosnia and Moldova - if we just match their results then we'll jump above them. This should be the minimum we can hope for this year - a jump to 33 in the ranking.
For the teams just above us then:

Moldova will probably get through the CL (Kazakh team) but it's not a foregone conclusion at all. Nistru drew Hertha Berlin in the UC (no points there) and Nacia drew Borac (Serbia) so it'll be tough for them too. We should end up ahead of Moldova by a full coefficient point
Bosnia-Herzegovnia have a tough CL draw (Albania) but they're the seeds so we can assume they'll get through. They have Vaduz and another Albanian team in the UC so they again should do ok out of that. On the other hand, Bosnian teams are the two lowest seeds so both Vaduz and Partizan Tirana (top half of unseeded) will fancy their chances much as we do against the Latvians. If we equal the Bosnian results we'll be ahead by the equivalent of 1 draw.
Hungary go straight into Rd 2 of the CL but will play Fenerbahce there, and thus will probably pick up no points. They should get both teams through UC though, and will end up very close to us but just ahead.
Lithuania will get full CL points (Santa Coloma - Andorra) and will win one (TNS) and lose one (Viking Stavanger) in the UC - they will still be ahead of us
Latvia will go through in the CL (Llanelli) and will probably get through in the UC tie against Glentoran - Given that Latvia are the nearest team above us in the Northern part of the UC it is really important that Pats win both games and deny them points. Hopefully Glentoran can get a good result as well.

In summary I think the best we can do is end up 32nd - if Hungary has a nightmare season. Obviously if we get teams into the 2nd round and can pick up points there then it's a bonus and we may creep up a little further but if we get over 1 pt then I don't think we should complain too much. From a longer term point of view, we should hope that Latvia have a really bad season so that we can get as close as possible to them. It's funny that the nearby (geographically) leagues may have a large bearing on the outcome for us - obviously if TNS, Llanelli and Glentoran do well, it is of huge benefit to the LOI.

[CuanaD]

Just to back-up what bigmac is saying, here's a link to Bert's page showing our (Country Ranking) starting position (33rd) before this years games:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2009.html

[holidaysong]

Just to back-up what bigmac is saying, here's a link to Bert's page showing our (Country Ranking) starting position (33rd) before this years games:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2009.html

What kind of draws did the Hungarian and Lithuanian clubs get? Could getting to 31st be done?

[HarpoJoyce]

What kind of draws did the Hungarian and Lithuanian clubs get? Could getting to 31st be done?

In the Champion's League Kaunas have drawn Santa Coloma of (no not Spain) Andorra.

The table Bert Kassel presents 'hides'* information about the potential of some leagues. Liechenstein had a poor total from last year, so they are due a respectable total this year again (upwards to 2.000).

Because Leagues like LIE,LTU, FIN and LAT tend to be in the North Europe group the LoI need to get above one or two of them again because it will help the UEFA Cup representatives been seeded. Hungary and Moldova are less important to better, but it will show signs of progress if we do.

I have a question for the Bert Kassel lovers. Would you be happy with the LoI been at a position in the table where they are seeded in the UEFA CUP and CL q1 rd. clubs progress in the annual tournaments, showing perception of success, knocking on the door of groups (CL and UEFA) but never making the breakthrough. But just because of their advantage in the early rd. they are able to show success there?

*Hides is the wrong word, I think I mean Conceal.

[bigmac]

What kind of draws did the Hungarian and Lithuanian clubs get? Could getting to 31st be done?

See above; Hungarian clubs got manageable ties in the UC (Zestaponi and Karagandy) but will be unseeded in R2 of the CL.
Lithuania have 2 easy draws and one v tough one.
31st would only be possible if we had a season similar to the one in 06/07 which is unlikely given Drogs' tough first round draw and mission impossible reward for winning it.

[bigmac]

I have a question for the Bert Kassel lovers. Would you be happy with the LoI been at a position in the table where they are seeded in the UEFA CUP and CL q1 rd. clubs progress in the annual tournaments, showing perception of success, knocking on the door of groups (CL and UEFA) but never making the breakthrough. But just because of their advantage in the early rd. they are able to show success there?

It'd be hard to complain about it to be honest. I think I'd be happy to be at a stage where it would be more of a surprise to go out in the first round than to progress. I'd like to see the current attitude towards the first round moved to the second round whereby a good draw is what we're looking for first and foremost.
I'm under no illusions about group stages of UC, given that the lowest 10 seeds in the previous round last year included Galatasaray, Fiorentina, Everton, Atletico Madrid and Red Star Belgrade. To beat one of these teams would be a pretty exceptional result.
In the CL, it may actually be easier due to the timing of the draw. By beating a good team in the 2nd QR, you then get their coefficient in the next draw and could thus end up playing a more beatable team. As an example -

Last year, Tampere from Finland beat Murata of San Marino in R1 They then beat Levski Sofia in the 2nd QR and hence were seeded in the 3rd round. They drew Rosenberg there and went out, but had they got a more favourable draw - eg BATE of Belarus - they'd have had a really good shot at it
In summary, I'd be happy with steady progress. In a year or two I would hope that all teams will be seeded and they'll each be expecting to progress through to the next round. Ideally, by the time we lose the big coefficient year, we'll be in a position where our 4 (by then) European clubs will be picking up 2 wins each to start with and we won't be worried about falling back in the rankings.

[bigmac]

Incidentally (nope, I'm not getting any work done today), it is the 2007 rankings that decided our European spots for this year, not last years rankings - obviously this is so that leagues will no before they begin how many European spots are on offer (with the exception of fair play). Therefore the 2008 ranking of 35th is what will dictate our European qualifiers at the end of this season for the 2009/2010 season.

The Champions will therefore go into QR1 of the CL and by my calculations will probably not be seeded. This of course will depend on the coefficient at the end of this year, but I think that our representatives will end up the top unseeded team. :(
With the new format Uefa Cup, the Cup winners will go into QR2 and the 2nd and 3rd placed teams will go into QR1. By my calculations, both teams in QR1 will be seeded, and the cup winners may just about be seeded - it depends on the regional split and fair play winners I think.

[pineapple stu]

What kind of draws did the Hungarian and Lithuanian clubs get? Could getting to 31st be done?
From the point of view of UEFA Cup seeding, Hungary's not relevant as the draw is regionalised in the first couple of rounds.

[holidaysong]

From the point of view of UEFA Cup seeding, Hungary's not relevant as the draw is regionalised in the first couple of rounds.

I know that, I wasn't really concerned with seeding. I was just wondering if the Lithuanian and Hungarian clubs had harder draws than the Irish clubs and therefore if we could leapfrog them in the rankings. It could be possible to jump Hungary next year with them losing the big 4.166 perhaps?

[Dodge]

But jumping them won't matter. LIkewise Moldova. I we go ahead of Lithunia, the next stop is Latvia

[HarpoJoyce]

But jumping them won't matter. LIkewise Moldova. I we go ahead of Lithunia, the next stop is Latvia


From the point of view of UEFA Cup seeding, Hungary's not relevant as the draw is regionalised in the first couple of rounds.

I think holidaysong's question is about the central ranking list. And how the LoI can gain places in one season.
Last season the LoI gained 5 places
http://www.uefa.com/uefa/keytopics/kind=64/newsid=584172.html *

One apology I used this link in JC_GUFC's co-eff thread, but the source lmaterial remains relevant to this post.

[holidaysong]

But jumping them won't matter. LIkewise Moldova. I we go ahead of Lithunia, the next stop is Latvia

In terms of seeding it doesn't matter of course if we are ahead of Moldova, but 31st would be better than 33rd. :)

EDIT - That was indeed what I was asking about HarpoJoyce.

[higgins]

Well does anyone know for sure if next seasons UEFA Cup will be based on Regions for the opening rounds ?
I don't think it has been decided yet.

From what I can tell (assuming we get 3 or 4 wins this year), we will be seeded in QR1 of UEFA Cup and seeded in QR2 of the UEFA Cup.

In the CL it looks like the team who represents us would need to have some of their own points in the team coefficient charts to be seeded. I suppose we are looking to Pats or Bohs to get past QR2 of the UEFA Cup this year and to go on and win the eircom League!

[bigmac]

But jumping them won't matter.

True - but the overall rankings matter in terms of where the teams enter each competition. The 2 nearest magic numbers are:

34th in the rankings - 3rd place into Q1, Cup winners & 2nd place into Q2
27th in the rankings - 3rd place into Q1, 2nd place into Q2 & Cup winners into Q3


If we have 2 good European seasons then 27th is just about attainable which would mean that the Cup winners would only have to win two ties to get to the group stages.

[holidaysong]

34th in the rankings - 3rd place into Q1, Cup winners & 2nd place into Q2
27th in the rankings - 3rd place into Q1, 2nd place into Q2 & Cup winners into Q3


If we have 2 good European seasons then 27th is just about attainable which would mean that the Cup winners would only have to win two ties to get to the group stages.

Should that be Q1 then?

[bigmac]

Should that be Q1 then?

No - the 27th ranked country will get its cup-winning representatives directly into the 3rd qualifying round. They would definitely be unseeded here, but there would be a huge chance of a glamour tie as all the top countries will have a representative here as well.

[holidaysong]

No - the 27th ranked country will get its cup-winning representatives directly into the 3rd qualifying round. They would definitely be unseeded here, but there would be a huge chance of a glamour tie as all the top countries will have a representative here as well.

But a close to zero chance of gaining co-efficient points therefore causing them to drop down the rankings again. It seems like a way of creating a closed shop for the top leagues to me.
It would arguably be better to enter earlier in Q1 or Q2 and be seeded, thereby allowing them a chance to improve upon their co-efficient.

[HarpoJoyce]

Well does anyone know for sure if next seasons UEFA Cup will be based on Regions for the opening rounds ?
I don't think it has been decided yet.

From what I can tell (assuming we get 3 or 4 wins this year), we will be seeded in QR1 of UEFA Cup and seeded in QR2 of the UEFA Cup.

In the CL it looks like the team who represents us would need to have some of their own points in the team coefficient charts to be seeded. I suppose we are looking to Pats or Bohs to get past QR2 of the UEFA Cup this year and to go on and win the eircom League!

It's usual for UEFA to reginalise associations close to their neighbours now. Otherwise they are paying out large compensation for travel to clubs who can't afford the travel.

I used to care about which LoI clubs qualified for Europe and that they hang on to their best players during the close season. But that leads to the same clubs qualifying and further leads to stagnation and compleancy.


But a close to zero chance of gaining co-efficient points therefore causing them to drop down the rankings again. It seems like a way of creating a closed shop for the top leagues to me.
It would arguably be better to enter earlier in Q1 or Q2 and be seeded, thereby allowing them a chance to improve upon their co-efficient.

That's the nature of the co-efficient ranking list. The later a club is introduced to the competition the more difficult it is to gain match points. Easy games many points move up. Less games, harder points move down.
Because the ramp is so slow up the table, it's hoped LoI clubs will be prepared for the higher standard. But there are numerous mini-whirlwinds on the list, it's fun watching Greece and Turkey compete for the same places.

At the same time, there's an annual tournament so its where a club finishes on that too that can be measured. I call it the race for UEFA Cup round one.

The introduction of the cup-winners into the 3rd UEFA Cup qualifying round will dilute this round as invariably it will have many domestic mod-table or below cups. And is an advantage to any talented club.

[bigmac]

But a close to zero chance of gaining co-efficient points therefore causing them to drop down the rankings again. It seems like a way of creating a closed shop for the top leagues to me.
It would arguably be better to enter earlier in Q1 or Q2 and be seeded, thereby allowing them a chance to improve upon their co-efficient.

True - several people have pointed out before that should the current improvement continue, we will eventually end up in a seesaw situation for a few years where entry to a higher round causes us to drop down which then gets us the points to get up again.

The top leagues are definitely faring well in the new system, but the Uefa group stages were always difficult to qualify for given the large numbers of teams from the top countries. As you say, a close to zero chance of getting into Q4 from Q3 and an even unlikelier chance of getting out of Q4.

The new format for the CL does make it a little bit easier however. 5 of the places in the group stages will be allocated to countries ranked 13 and worse. Essentially this would mean that to make the CL group stages, the LOI team would probably have to beat 1 team ranked between 13 and 22 - and 1 team ranked 13 to 18 assuming that other matches go with the seeding. While still a difficult task, think back to Shels against Deportivo and think how much more realistic the group stages would have seemed had they been playing Anderlecht or Rosenberg that year - and those would have been seeded teams.

[mattl]

Don't forget though it will be much easier to qualify for the Uefa Cup group stages via the Champions League.

So next year our league winner only has to get to Q3 of the Champions League and if they lose in that they go directly into the Uefa Cup group stages (as opposed to Round1 in the current format).

Easier said than done yes but do remember the new qualifying system means it'll be a lot easier to get through the Champions Leage Q2 as you'll only be facing the champions from leagues 13-25 so with a good draw it's very do-able e.g. Sweden, Slovakia, Cyprus or Croatia.

What do yez think?

[Dodge]

Bohs losing 1-0 in latvia

[Terry]

are bohs doing updates anywhere?

[Dunny]

are bohs doing updates anywhere?

http://www.bohemians.ie/index.php/live-match-update.htm#last

[Terry]

http://www.bohemians.ie/index.php/live-match-update.htm#last

cheers

[niallsparky]

Bohs lost 1-0. Still well in the tie though.

[Martinho II]

Bohs lost 1-0. Still well in the tie though.


did many bohs go and i assume a lot of them had to change their flights at short notice??

[Dodge]

20 Bohs fans at the game apparently. Fair play to them.

EDIT; This video posted by Bohs fan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oh2zHUqRMY

[Terry]

whens the second leg?

[TheBoss]

Saturday

[Duggie]

still capable of going through - pity they didnt get an away goal though. elfsborg beat hibs 2-0 in scotland.

[holidaysong]

It'll be a pity of Bohs do get through and have to play Elfsborg - could get a great crowd against Hibs.

[pateen]

still capable of going through - pity they didnt get an away goal though. elfsborg beat hibs 2-0 in scotland.

Shyte, didnt know that was the result.
Best of luck to bohs next sunday

[Carlin]

20 Bohs fans at the game apparently. Fair play to them.

EDIT; This video posted by Bohs fan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oh2zHUqRMY

Was about 40-50 Bohs there. That Riga side ain't great and I'd be confident of getting a win on Saturday. If they score an away goal, it could be tricky though....

[pateen]

Next week is a nervy week.

What’s peoples thoughts on Drogs making the next round.
Confidence is not good there at the moment.
A nervy win last weekend.
Jason Galvins bust up.
Faz Signs.

The last two could be both good. Gavin is a big loss. Best centre half in the country IMO

[CuanaD]

Next week is a nervy week.

What’s peoples thoughts on Drogs making the next round.
Confidence is not good there at the moment.
A nervy win last weekend.
Jason Galvins bust up.
Faz Signs.

The last two could be both good. Gavin is a big loss. Best centre half in the country IMO

Going to be tough for Drogs alright - I'm just p1ssed i wont be able to be there - have to be away midweek - hope they make the next round so I can get to Dayler again:ball:

[TheBoss]

Elfsborg 2-0 Hibernians (agg: 4-0)

So Bohs will play Elfsborg if they beat Riga Tonight.

[paul_oshea]

can someone tell me why there is no mention of the game on rte.ie and why bohemians dont have it on the front page, you have to click into match centre to see time etc.

Have to say if I was back in Dublin I'd definitely be going to this one. Something good to do of a Saturday night before a feed of pints.

[pineapple stu]

Bohs 1-0 up. 1-1 on aggregate. McGuinness on 21. Would imagine Bohs'll go on to win from here.

[SkStu]

McGuinness

[higgins]

Is this game on the radio anywhere or live updates ?

[pineapple stu]

No. Updates on RTE radio, though they've only left the hurling once to get news of the goal.

[pineapple stu]

Riga equalise. Bohs in serious trouble.

[SkStu]

2 goals needed now to progress... damn.

[paul_oshea]

surely they should be beating teams from latvia?! :rolleyes:

[pineapple stu]

The Latvian league which is ranked six places higher (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2009.html) than the LoI? I still think Bohs should have gone on to win having gone 1-0 up at home, but we're in no place to be assuming wins over Latvian teams.

Looks like Pat Fenlon's Euro conservatism has come back to haunt him again.

[paul_oshea]

The Latvian league which is ranked six places higher (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2009.html) than the LoI? I still think Bohs should have gone on to win having gone 1-0 up at home, but we're in no place to be assuming wins over Latvian teams.

Looks like Pat Fenlon's Euro conservatism has come back to haunt him again.

ya, if they want to start moving on and getting more people through the gates they need to be beating Latvian opposition.

I'm sure the reason he is conservative is because of his experience in Europe and he realises he needs to be given the teams.

[pineapple stu]

Beating Latvian teams in Europe won't help crowds.

Your second sentence doesn't make sense.

Bohs got a last gasp winner, but go out on away goals.