eircom League in Europe - 2008

[elroy]

When it comes to the EL teams in the CL, im nearly more optimistic against big teams than smaller teams. If Drogs can beat Tallinn, then i think they will put it up to Kiev, not saying they'll beat them but certainly could give them a game. Tallinn will be no walkover though.

[ifk101]

Who did cliftonville get?

Copenhagen.

[saintmaniac]

Has it got the dates right? :eek:

Yeah, 17 and 31 July. Think that's about right. Can't get onto the Pats forum to check, as it's crashed - looks like the combined force of me and a load of curious Latvians has killed it for a bit. I knew the first game wasn't very long after the draw itself. Makes travel a little difficult, but I think it was the best draw we could have gotten in that respect - some of the Scandinavian teams look very difficult to get to, and as for flights...

I can't remember if the dates were as close together last year - guess we have to blame those pesky Spaniards and their beautiful brand of football for distracting UEFA from the really important stuff :p

[Steve Bruce]

2 out of 3 Irish League clubs out already then. Glentoran wont do much either, but at least have a chance

[Stevo Da Gull]

Copenhagen...that's rough!
Zagreb..... dido!

[dubman]

I don't think most Pats fans are cavalier about that draw - we've had enough disasters in the last few years to ensure that. I'll never forget the Moldovans as long as I live. But put it this way, they're a step below Odense's level... so hopefully won't lose by 5 this time :o

I will never forget that 0-5 , shocking day.

[Steve Bruce]

Copenhagen...that's rough!
Zagreb..... dido!

Before I make a point, I want to say that I know the LOI is a higher standard league.

But this draw highlights the flaws of co-efficient ratings. Linfield and Cliftonville have been handed 2 of the hardest draws possible, we are likely to get no points at all.hopefully Linfield can force a draw at home. But it is unlikely.

I do however wish every team bar Glentoran on this island to do well and hopefully we’ll have some interest in the 2nd round.

[sligored]

Cork City vs. Haka (Finland)

haka beat sligo rovers 4-0 on aggregate in 1983 cup winners cup.
however considering the plane was nearly diverted on the way to finland with the drunkenness of some of the sligo rovers team members at the time, i suppose a 3 0 loss was to be expected

[Stevo Da Gull]

Before I make a point, I want to say that I know the LOI is a higher standard league.

But this draw highlights the flaws of co-efficient ratings. Linfield and Cliftonville have been handed 2 of the hardest draws possible, we are likely to get no points at all.hopefully Linfield can force a draw at home. But it is unlikely.

I do however wish every team bar Glentoran on this island to do well and hopefully we’ll have some interest in the 2nd round.

Yeah I'd like to see all the clubs from the island do well, the only thing that I'd hold against the clubs from the north is the players unavailable through holidays, that kind of annoys me. You can correct me here obviously, but didn't Linfield come very close to beating Elfsborg a few years ago with 1 or 2 players missing on holiday - what if those missing players are the difference? (again I could well be wrong in this instance).

[pineapple stu]

Lisburn had about four players on holidays for the InterToto game last week (they lost 3-1 in Finland, having been 3-2 down from the first leg). Ditto Glentoran when they played Shels, I think. IL teams don't really seem to take Europe seriously at all.

[superfrank]

IL teams don't really seem to take Europe seriously at all.
Or maybe they're just happier sticking to the FIFA-season?

[Duggie]

lads these were pretty much as good as we could have got. if all three teams dont get thru to the next round id be disappointed.

[DmanDmythDledge]

Talinn have played Bohs twice in Europe before. In 2001, Bohs won 3-0 agg and in 2004 lost 3-1 agg. They've got decent performances in Europe the past few years, have beaten FC Twente and ran Newcastle and Red Star Belgrade close.


Great draws...
4 wins in the UEFA Cup and Drogheda should get at least a win and draw in the CL.
Don't know how anybody could complain about these.
Wouldn't be so confident about Drogs.

Would four wins in the UEFA be enough to secure seeding next season?

[Steve Bruce]

Yeah I'd like to see all the clubs from the island do well, the only thing that I'd hold against the clubs from the north is the players unavailable through holidays, that kind of annoys me. You can correct me here obviously, but didn't Linfield come very close to beating Elfsborg a few years ago with 1 or 2 players missing on holiday - what if those missing players are the difference? (again I could well be wrong in this instance).

That was last year. We should have go got through, but that's the way it goes.

[Steve Bruce]

Lisburn had about four players on holidays for the InterToto game last week (they lost 3-1 in Finland, having been 3-2 down from the first leg). Ditto Glentoran when they played Shels, I think. IL teams don't really seem to take Europe seriously at all.

IL teams are in a rut at the moment and have lost confidence on progressing in Europe.

Ferguson is the only one on holiday this year.

[David]

Superb draw for the Eircom teams but complete opposite for Irish League with only the Glens having a chance (and I hope they get beat :D). Every chance that all three Eircom teams progress, I hope they do.

[pineapple stu]

Would four wins in the UEFA be enough to secure seeding next season?
The UEFA is changing from next season (as the InterToto will be gone), and the top Irish team will be getting straight into the second qualifying round. So it'll be very different with more teams in it, and harder to say if we're going up in the world. Best thing to do is try and win the games and not worry about it.

Edit - Levadia Tallinn's record in Europe (http://kassiesa.com/uefaclubs/search/fm.php) (excludes games played as Levadia Maardu, like the previous tie against Bohs). Pretty impressive.

Edit edit - the search function dies with the link. Here's their record -

Search string: levadia tallinn
year cup rnd
2009 CL Q1 Drogheda United Irl Levadia Tallinn Est
2008 CL Q2 Red Star Belgrade Srb Levadia Tallinn Est 1-0 1-2
2008 CL Q1 Pobeda Prilep Mac Levadia Tallinn Est 0-1 0-0
2007 UC R1 Levadia Tallinn Est Newcastle United Eng 0-1 1-2
2007 UC Q2 FC Twente Enschede Ned Levadia Tallinn Est 1-1 0-1
2007 UC Q1 Levadia Tallinn Est Haka Valkeakoski Fin 2-0 0-1
2006 CL Q1 Levadia Tallinn Est Dinamo Tbilisi Geo 1-0 0-2
2005 UC Q2 Bodø/Glimt Nor Levadia Tallinn Est 2-1 1-2 8-7
2005 UC Q1 Levadia Tallinn Est Bohemians Dublin Irl 0-0 3-1
2003 UC Q1 Levadia Tallinn Est Maccabi Tel-Aviv Isr 0-2 0-2

[TheBoss]

There's two Levadia Tallinns I think - one sold its licence to the other or something wierd like that a few years back. This may be a different team (though I haven't checked that out). If you read your ATW, you'd know that. ;)

You are somewhat right, They were formed in 1998 as FC Levadia Maardu, for the start of the 2004 season, they were renamed FC Levadia Tallinn, which is not be to confused with the other FC Levadia Tallinn, that was in the league between 2001-2003

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, got half confused myself reading it, so I left it out in the end. :)

Interesting that they beat Haka recently.

[TheBoss]

Levadia Tallinn's Main Threats:
Nikita Andreev - FW
Tarmo Kink - WG/FW
Konstantin Nahk - CM
Indrek Zelinski - FW

I do not see any threats for Haka really.

[dcfcsteve]

But this draw highlights the flaws of co-efficient ratings. Linfield and Cliftonville have been handed 2 of the hardest draws possible, we are likely to get no points at all.hopefully Linfield can force a draw at home. But it is unlikely.



A draw is a draw - you just get on with it in terms of who you're paired with.

City got the hardest draw in the northern UEFA Cup region in 2006 (IFK Gothenborg). The rest, as they say, is history. So it does happen - and to other clubs/leagues as well.

Re co-efficient ratings - the better you do, the easier the draw, so the better you'll do again. Not letting players go off on holiday during the weeks when you know yiou'll have Euro games would be a good starting point for IL teams if they want to stop getting such sh!tty draws....:o

[pete]

Hard draw for IL sides but thats just bad luck this year. Bring unseeded does not help either.

The LOI ranking has been improving in recent years not due to luck but because we have beaten seeded teams from Sweden, Croatia, Cyprus & Finland

[Steve Bruce]

Hard draw for IL sides but thats just bad luck this year. Bring unseeded does not help either.

The LOI ranking has been improving in recent years not due to luck but because we have beaten seeded teams from Sweden, Croatia, Cyprus & Finland

What Croatian side have you beaten?

By the way I am not making excuses as to why the LOI are ahead of us in the co-efficients, I am making a point at how flawed they are. This is the 3rd year in a row we have got the top 1-3 seeds.

[TheBoss]

It was Hajduk Split, Shels beat them.

[Steve Bruce]

It was Hajduk Split, Shels beat them.

Well I think we can all safely say, that Shels team where by far the best side man for man this island has seen in a couple of decades. I'm sure if the rest of us pumped in the money they did for their players we would have the squads/teams capable of getting to the 3rd round as well.

[adamd164]

Yes, that was a huge scalp for Shels.

We've had some great results as well; we've knocked out Djurgardens from Sweden, Apollon from Cyprus, Valur from Iceland, Malmo from Sweden, Nijmegen from Holland.

What Northern teams can boast that record in recent times?

[JC_GUFC]

By the way I am not making excuses as to why the LOI are ahead of us in the co-efficients, I am making a point at how flawed they are. This is the 3rd year in a row we have got the top 1-3 seeds.

That's just called luck!

Cork and Pat's were both unseeded in the UEFA Cup draw as well. It was luck that they got 2 of the easier teams in the draw and that the Irish League teams got 2 of the top ranked teams.

Last year St Pat's got pretty much the toughest draw they could have and deserved a bit of luck this year.

[Steve Bruce]

Yes, that was a huge scalp for Shels.

We've had some great results as well; we've knocked out Djurgardens from Sweden, Apollon from Cyprus, Valur from Iceland, Malmo from Sweden, Nijmegen from Holland.

What Northern teams can boast that record in recent times?

Where did you see me putting yous down, that post comes across as very defensive.

The last team Linfield put out was Ventspills 3 years ago. Glentoran progressed to the 2nd round the year before. Linfield put in a good performance last year against Elsborg who went onto the 3rd round of CL and if I'm not mistaken the group stages of the UEFA cup.

The year before be played Gorica and put in a good 2nd leg performance 2-2.

We are part-time, miles away from match fitness. We don't have much of a chance, but our draws in recent years have been hurrendously bad for us.

[adamd164]

Sorry, I didn't mean to seem argumentative. I'd like to see the Irish League do well in Europe.

[bigmac]

Steve, I can see your point about it being very difficult for unseeded teams when they draw a top seed, but I'm not sure I get your point about the draw being flawed because of this.
Do you have a fairer solution or are you just frustrated at a difficult draw?

Last year's Uefa draw wasn't that bad - one Swedish and one Lithuanian team, when the LOI teams got one Danish and one San Marino (the advantage of being seeded). The previous year it was a Norwegian and Lithuanian team when the LOI teams got one Swedish and one Finnish team.

[Steve Bruce]

Steve, I can see your point about it being very difficult for unseeded teams when they draw a top seed, but I'm not sure I get your point about the draw being flawed because of this.
Do you have a fairer solution or are you just frustrated at a difficult draw?

Last year's Uefa draw wasn't that bad - one Swedish and one Lithuanian team, when the LOI teams got one Danish and one San Marino (the advantage of being seeded). The previous year it was a Norwegian and Lithuanian team when the LOI teams got one Swedish and one Finnish team.

The draw itself isn't flawed, but I think co-efficients are flawed. In the last 3 draws Linfield has been given the hardest or next to hardest possible draws. We get a poor co-efficent because of this. Yet a country of lesser standard could get an easier draw and have a co-efficent far superior.

Maybe I am just frustrated at getting the hardest possible draws year in and year out. Next year should be a bit different with this new format.

Oh and my solution wouldn't be accepted by UEFA. My solution would be to stick everyone in a hat (including the Man Utds, Real Madrids etc) and have a free draw. Then everyone will be on a level playing field and if Linfield get Real Madrid at least we would get a financial windfall out of it.

[adamd164]

Oh and my solution wouldn't be accepted by UEFA. My solution would be to stick everyone in a hat (including the Man Utds, Real Madrids etc) and have a free draw. Then everyone will be on a level playing field and if Linfield get Real Madrid at least we would get a financial windfall out of it.

Totally agree that's the way it should be done. As you say though, the suits won't have it. They don't care about grassroots football; they care about money.

[bigmac]

My solution would be to stick everyone in a hat (including the Man Utds, Real Madrids etc) and have a free draw.

Completely agree.
With the co-efficients, it's much more difficult for the lowest ranked leagues to get away from the bottom. Obviously if a higher ranked league slips back a little (maybe from entry to 2nd qualifying round to 1st QR) they then have an easier draw to make back their coefficients, but as you say, to get away from the unseeded section, you have to get a good draw and perform above average. For me, the big problem for the IL is the lack of strength in depth. This means that not only does one team have to get a good draw, that team has to be strong enough to capitalise on it for the good of the others.

[JC_GUFC]

For anyone who's interested PP have odds on who will qualify from each of the ties.

http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=go_soccer_level2&category=SOCCER&ev_class_id=53

[Dodge]

Well I think we can all safely say, that Shels team where by far the best side man for man this island has seen in a couple of decades. I'm sure if the rest of us pumped in the money they did for their players we would have the squads/teams capable of getting to the 3rd round as well.

Don't forrget that that "great" Shels team won only one game in that run. I@m now knocking the run (far from it given our euro record) but although they got through 2 rounds (and played 8 ties in total) they have 1 win to show for it.

Obviously I'd be delighted with same.

From our point of view its as good as could be hoped for. Weakest team on the pitch, decent tourist spot for the fans.

Oha nd Steve Bruce, last year Pats were drawn against the highest seeds.

[higgins]

The system at the moment is fair.
Everyone wants easy teams from San Marino or the Man Utd's of this world.

Odds are in a draw with all the teams we come out the next 20 or 30 years and get very little in the way of easy or bumper draws. You'd go out every year to like of Kiev or Steaua or others that are better but not big draws.

The way it works now is perfect in my opinion. Rounds with teams that have a chance against each other and the better you are the further you go. Nobody wants to get beaten 8-0 each year by teams from Spain england or Italy either, despite the money you'd get. In fact the move next year adding in another qualifying round is even better. The more qualifying rounds the better in my opinion, gives everyone something to aim for.

Talk to any Shels fan. Making the 3rd QR that year was as great and as special to us as winning it was for the Liverpool fans.

As for the North and their bad draws...
boooooooooooooo hooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

You have 5 years to get decent results to claw your way out of the mess. If you can't do that or won't do that then your tough.

Over 5 years if your league is better than those of Lativa or Iceland or Finland etc you'd come out on top eventually.

[Dodge]

What Croatian side have you beaten?


Pats beat Rijeka in inter toto too (even if it dodn't count regards co-eff)

[higgins]

Regarding next year.
Looks like we will go back to unseeded in the Champions League QR1 from what I can tell (we're currently 18th from 34 teams in QR1 for example) but very very close to being seeded! There is actually a QR0 for the CL from next season.

If the Irish League are not careful they could be playing in that :)
They are 48th from 52 states and the bottom 6 play in QR0! so bad results this year and your football season starts even earlier next year.

UEFA Cup we'll get our Cup Winners into QR2 and they are very close to being seeded in that QR2.
Our two other entrants will go into QR1 and should be seeded. In fact a good year now and we will have 2 teams starting in QR2 and being seeded from next year.

[McCusker26]

Cannot see Drogheda beat that Estonian side. Last time they played Bohs they tore them apart and are consistently top of their league. They have a very good record in Europe too whilst Drogs are struggling big time.

Haka from Finland will be too strong for Cork too I think.

Pats should progress I think.

Being drawn at home in the 1st leg is the kiss of death. You need to be far superior to progress if you are drawn at home in the first leg so I think Cork and Drogs will suffer against better teams.

[Dodge]

Cannot see Drogheda beat that Estonian side. Last time they played Bohs they tore them apart and are consistently top of their league

Not in tallinn they didn't and that was the first leg too

[CuanaD]

Mods:
Shouldn't this thread be merged into the "eircom League in Europe - 2008" stickied thread?

[DmanDmythDledge]

For anyone who's interested PP have odds on who will qualify from each of the ties.

http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=go_soccer_level2&category=SOCCER&ev_class_id=53
How can you make Drogs favourites? Just look at Talinn's record in Europe, plus Drogs poor form this season and lack of European experience.

[Dodge]

How can you make Drogs favourites? Just look at Talinn's record in Europe, plus Drogs poor form this season and lack of European experience.

The only answer is to back Talinn heavily if you disagree with him

[CharlesThompson]

Cannot see Drogheda beat that Estonian side. Last time they played Bohs they tore them apart...

I really know I shouldn't bite however I beg to differ... Bohs had beaten this side 3-0 over two legs two seasons previously. Drawn against them two years later we travelled to them for the first leg and got a credible 0-0 away leg result and we expected to beat them at home.

Problem for us was that the players thought all they had to do was turn up on the night. We made some brutal mistakes during the game and Talinn rode their luck. If I remember correctly it ended up being Kenny's last game in charge of Bohs because the manner in which we lost the game had been coming and was symptomatic of our teams performances to date in that season. This was down to the arrogance of the players in the squad at the time and something Kenny was not able to remedy - another story I know. in any case, IMO and in most bohs supporters opinion and to be fair I would suggest, to most independent patrons on the night, we beat ourselves that night and were by no means whatesoever torn apart by Tallinn.

[DmanDmythDledge]

The only answer is to back Talinn heavily if you disagree with him
I have.;)

[Réiteoir]

we absolutely hammered on the Tallinn door in that first leg - had a lorryload of chances and just couldn't convert a single one.

I remember long periods of the second half when they couldn't get out of their own half

[Stato]

The draw itself isn't flawed, but I think co-efficients are flawed. In the last 3 draws Linfield has been given the hardest or next to hardest possible draws. We get a poor co-efficent because of this. Yet a country of lesser standard could get an easier draw and have a co-efficent far superior.


I can see where you're coming from, Pats have drawn a seeded side who are one point from the bottom of their league and have only won three matches in the last two seasons, yet they're seeded on the basis of performances by other teams in their country over the last five years.

However, there's no perfect system. Even in an open draw your chances of improving or even drawing a big team is slim. Look at this year's draw, statistically there was a 2 in 7 chance of one of the four "Irish" teams drawing Man City but none of them did.

[Dodge]

I can see where you're coming from, Pats have drawn a seeded side who are one point from the bottom of their league and have only won three matches in the last two seasons, yet they're seeded on the basis of performances by other teams in their country over the last five years.

However, there's no perfect system. Even in an open draw your chances of improving or even drawing a big team is slim. Look at this year's draw, statistically there was a 2 in 7 chance of one of the four "Irish" teams drawing Man City but none of them did.

And of course if we were to have club only co effs Man City and Olimps would have the same (and Pats would be ahead of both of them...)

The rankings are fine. There's no such thing as a perfect fool proof system

[TheBoss]

Cannot see Drogheda beat that Estonian side. Last time they played Bohs they tore them apart and are consistently top of their league.


You sure about that, Bohs knocked them out.



They have a very good record in Europe too whilst Drogs are struggling big time.


Do you know that they lost 14 players that signed with other clubs, their best players went off to play in foreign leagues, like Latvia, Russia, Denmark, Finland, Norway and Slovenia.

[pineapple stu]

Bohs beat them in 2001 (or so) and lost to them three years later (under a different name).

Was Pete Mahon's first games and Stephen Kenny's last. Was at the 3-1 home defeat and didn't think the Estonians were great, but their results since then can't be ignored.