eircom League in Europe - 2008

[TheBoss]

What a surprise, Dynamo Kiev lose 2-1 at Home today, hopefully, something similar on Wednesday :D

[Dodge]

is that the optimism breaking out?

If you can call thinking we won't lose 5-0 optimistic, then yeah...

[CuanaD]

damn just got there before me:)
yeah this proves the importance of seeding, so well done to St Pats.

by the way Bigmac just wondering what would the most co effieicents any team ever got in one season? hard to answer, but i reckon St Petersburg would have picked up a huge amount from last seasons run, considering they went through something like 7 rounds and won the final
They were ranked 6th of last years teams:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/ccoef2008.html

[Celdrog]

Drogs team arrived in Kiev tonight at 7pm. Dan Connor didn't even travel - not looking good for him, his career could be over.

Roddy acting the maggot again.
Thread on Drogs forum (http://www.irishfootienetwork.com/viewtopic.php?t=11141&sid=0b0d762c91258543066f5ccb3a0f0161)

Any recommendations? I think we'll do well to keep it to 2 but you never know.

[pineapple stu]

Any recommendations? I think we'll do well to keep it to 2 but you never know.
I'd recommend winning by two and then having lots of drink.

I agree you'll do well to keep it to two though. Depends on Kiev though (if, hypothetically, they ease up at 1-0, for example).

[higgins]

Lads, the coefficients for 2008/09 being used for 2010/2011 is irrelevant really.
You should only view those when looking at the number of teams you have in europe and at what round the teams start, everything else happens at the current coefficient values.

For example in the 2009/2010 season we will be entered as 35th seed but when it comes to the draw and the seeding we will be effectively the 33rd seeds (if things stay the same as they are now).

It's only in terms of the rounds at which you enter that you have to look at the placing from two seasons back.

We won't be too far off having three teams seeded in the UEFA Cup QR2.
From what I can work out we will be 46 47 and 48th of the 80 team in that round and possibly higher if unseeded teams were to go through from QR1.
I know some sides could have a team coefficient higher than their league ranking but not many will.

[paul_oshea]

when for next season higgins?

When will Ireland have 3 teams in the UEfA cup and more importantly when will they all be seeded in the 2nd qualifying round?! Sounds a bit far off...

[superfrank]

Next season Ireland will have three teams in the UEFA (because of the termination of the InterToto).

[Schumi]

If I've read next year's access list (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/access2009.html) correctly, if our Champions' League team win two ties, they make it to the UEFA Cup group stages. The losers from CL qualifying round 2 go into the last qualifying round of the UEFA Cup and losers from CL qualifying round 3 go into the UEFA Cup groups. This is one round quicker than currently where losers from CL qualifying round 3 have to win another tie to make the UEFA Cup groups.

[bigmac]

If I've read next year's access list (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/access2009.html) correctly, if our Champions' League team win two ties, they make it to the UEFA Cup group stages. The losers from CL qualifying round 2 go into the last qualifying round of the UEFA Cup and losers from CL qualifying round 3 go into the UEFA Cup groups. This is one round quicker than currently where losers from CL qualifying round 3 have to win another tie to make the UEFA Cup groups.

I read it that way as well. There are effectively 2 separate CL qualifying pools - one for the top 15 countries and one for countries 13 down (the overlap is for countries that have 2 teams in the CL, their 2nd placed team gets stuck in the harder qualifier group). Each of these pools provides 5 teams in the CL group stages and 5 into UEFA stages. Essentially it means that if an EL team win their first round tie, they will effectively be playing to get into the UEFA Cup group stages. Unfortunately, unless Pats can get coefficient points against Elfsborg or Drogs get something from Kiev (and other results go our way), the champions will be unseeded next year.

[higgins]

When ?

From next season we have 3 teams in UEFA Cup.
2 starting in QR1 that will certainly be seeded and 1 starting in QR2 that is very close to being seeded.

It gets better again because from the year after we're very likely to have 2 starting in QR2 and 1 starting in QR1. In fact we're only 5 spots off having 1 team that starts in QR3!!

I'd imagine we will move to being QR2 seeds in the 2010/11 season going at our current rate.

[LeixlipRed]

Tbh, I'd hold out hope for us getting through to the group stages of one of the competitions by sheer fluke in the next few years. The format changing is definitely a good thing for us. With kind draws you could definitely hit the 3 rd round of the CL qualifiers.

[pineapple stu]

Ventspils of Latvia 2-0 up on Brann Bergen at half time; Ventspils down to ten men after 11 minutes, at which stage they were already 1-0 up.

Going to watch Bergen later this month; hope they're better than that score indicates!

[mandrake]

when the draw was made for the 2nd qualifiers drogs couldve got sk brann or rapid vienna, these teams were beatable, as we can see....
that was 2 teams out of 14 beatable...this is teh luck an irish team needs to qualify for the 3rd round qualifiers... some one will get the luck some day...

[higgins]

It will all be easier next year.

Just look at Drogheda, if it was 2009 they would have another two games coming up even if Kiev beat them 10-0 tomorrow. That game would be for a place in the UEFA group stages.

So from next season UEFA Group stages should be just around the corner...

All that has to happen is somebody gets a decent draw in CL QR2 such as a Shels v Split as the loser in CL QR3 goes straight to UEFA Groups and even if you lose in CL QR2 you have a two legged tie to get into the UEFA Group stages.

Only a matter of time.

[bigmac]

With Kaunas and Ventspils both winning last night (would have loved it if Kaunas had knocked out CeItic instead of Rangers), our hopes of catching either of them this year are pretty much gone. At least Ventspils went out on away goals. Kaunas have a very winnable tie against Aalborg for a place in the group stages. If they win that we can forget about catching them in the foreseeable future :mad:


I know its a big if, but if Drogheda did manage to get past Kiev, and rangers lost out to Kaunas Drogs could draw them as Kaunas would take Rangers seed. What a chance that would be to get into the Champions league proper. I think its gonna take freak results like that for an Irish club to get into the Champions league
It can happen - Aalborg must be in dreamland, beat Sampdoria to make the group stages of the UC last year and possibly group stages of CL this year.

[Torn-Ado]

Elfsborg are far more superior to anything in the league of Ireland. They'll be brimming with confidence and rightly so. It will probably end up like Droghedas tie against Helsingborg with a draw at home and being soundly beaten away.

However Pats are playing away first which has always been good to the Irish sides against the Swedish league in Europe and if they grind out a draw in Borås, who knows. Best of luck to Pats though. I'd love to see them win the tie and get through to the third round.

[Dodge]

BTW Torn-Ado, we're all basing ourselves in Gothenburg...

[Torn-Ado]

BTW Torn-Ado, we're all basing ourselves in Gothenburg...

And I've just quit the pub so I won't have to endure you reprobates singing yer songs like Hibs a few weeks ago and Derry two years ago. :D

I jest. I'll make my way into town and have a few brooskies. Ill probaby wander out to Borås and watch the game too. How many is expected to travel?

[Dodge]

Not sure. we brought 200 to Riag but a few of the younger fans can't afford this trip. I'd expect about 150-200

[pineapple stu]

1-0 Kiev after 15.

Doesn't change anything, still needed two to go through, etc, etc, etc, but it could be a long night now for Drogheda.

[superfrank]

2-2!

About five minutes to go.

[CuanaD]

Sickened at the result!
Yes a draw in Kiev was a great result, but Drogs were SO CLOSE to knocking out Kiev - no moral victories.

[soccerc]

And I've just quit the pub so I won't have to endure you reprobates singing yer songs like Hibs a few weeks ago and Derry two years ago. :D

Was the Dubliner sold recently or just a change in managment?

[ifk101]

Elfsborg are far more superior to anything in the league of Ireland.

Elfsborg are favourities to win the tie but "far more superior"?


They'll be brimming with confidence and rightly so.

Don't see why. They did reach the UEFA Cup group stages last season but were hockeyed by the teams they played. Their away match against Valencia was what I'd expect a match between Brazil and the Faroe Islands would look like.


It will probably end up like Droghedas tie against Helsingborg with a draw at home and being soundly beaten away.

Hopefully not but Elfsborg are very defensive even at home so I think the odd goal or away goals will decide this tie.


However Pats are playing away first which has always been good to the Irish sides against the Swedish league in Europe and if they grind out a draw in Borås, who knows. Best of luck to Pats though. I'd love to see them win the tie and get through to the third round.

Yeah good luck Pats. Hope the Swedes come out with a few comments. Usually helps to drive on our club teams.

[finnpark]

Ive heard from a good source that one of the Elfborg players said, to local press there, that he seen a video of pats and that a few of the players looked like overweight women. He also said that they hoped to put the tie dead in Sweden and that Pats cannot play decent football.

[bigmac]

Well done to Drogs last night - unlucky not to win the game, but hard to quibble with the overall result of the tie. That unforseen coefficient boost has put us level with Bosnia and within touching distance of seeding next year in the CL. They're still ahead (I assume because they were ahead of us last year) so we have to hope for Pats to pick something up against Elfsborg and the Bosnian teams to get nothing.

**edit**
Just had a horrible thought. If Ferencvaros win the league in Hungary then they'll be seeded in the CL regardless of whether Hungary is 32 or higher as they have a huge club coefficient from 5 years ago :mad:

[LeixlipRed]

Ive heard from a good source that one of the Elfborg players said, to local press there, that he seen a video of pats and that a few of the players looked like overweight women. He also said that they hoped to put the tie dead in Sweden and that Pats cannot play decent football.

Will the Swedes never learn.

[LeixlipRed]

**edit**
Just had a horrible thought. If Ferencvaros win the league in Hungary then they'll be seeded in the CL regardless of whether Hungary is 32 or higher as they have a huge club coefficient from 5 years ago :mad:

Aren't they still in the 2nd division after being relegated a few years back?

[Dodge]

Will the Swedes never learn.

Read the post above that (last line). I made the same mistake...

[LeixlipRed]

Read the post above that (last line). I made the same mistake...

Ahh, missed that :D

[pineapple stu]

Aren't they still in the 2nd division after being relegated a few years back?

Yup.

Nearly got promoted last year, but fell just short.

[pete]

Ive heard from a good source that one of the Elfborg players said, to local press there, that he seen a video of pats and that a few of the players looked like overweight women. He also said that they hoped to put the tie dead in Sweden and that Pats cannot play decent football.

Arrogant Swedes? :eek:

That said they always have a good excuse when they lose. Even after Malmo beating them 3-1 at home in the Inter Toto they expected to win 4-0 in Sweden & local bookies had City at 12/1. When we got past Djungardens their excuse was we played too slow for them. :D

[Torn-Ado]

Was the Dubliner sold recently or just a change in managment?

No. Neither.

[Torn-Ado]

Elfsborg are favourities to win the tie but "far more superior"?

They have a decent mix of international players and up and coming youths. They're far more technically gifted than anything in the league of Ireland. From 04-06 Irish teams faired really well against the Swedish league but since last year the Swedish league got its act together and their performances in Europe dwarfed anything produced from Ireland. Even last night IFK Göteborg were extremely unlucky to be knocked out in Basel with some disgraceful refereeing


Don't see why. They did reach the UEFA Cup group stages last season but were hockeyed by the teams they played. Their away match against Valencia was what I'd expect a match between Brazil and the Faroe Islands would look like.

They reached the group stages because in the first place they got to the third qualifying stage of the CL where understandably Valencia beat them with ease. They're obviously a different kettle of fish from anything in Sweden and Ireland. And despite their shortcomings in Europe last season they'll probably take a glance at St Pats performances against Odense at the same time and be confident.

Hopefully not but Elfsborg are very defensive even at home so I think the odd goal or away goals will decide this tie.

As I said playing away first, like Cork did in Stockholm and Derry did here, could be a huge advantage to Pats. Elfsborg may be shaky and not know what to expect from Pats. Helsingborg had the Drogheda tie sewn up at full time in Dublin last year when they got a score draw with the home leg to come. Hopefully Pats can grind out a result in Borås and leave the Swedes needing a win in Ireland.

Yeah good luck Pats. Hope the Swedes come out with a few comments. Usually helps to drive on our club teams.

They've done it already.



My answers in bold...

[bigmac]

Yup.

Nearly got promoted last year, but fell just short.

Guess I'm showing my lack of knowledge of Hungarian football so! :D

[bennocelt]

They were ranked 6th of last years teams:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/ccoef2008.html

thanks for answering my last question
and now for another one:)

if kaunaus takes rangers co efficients now, if they lose the next game and are put into the uefa cup do they still keep rangers co efficients. If they did then i would imagine they would be well seeded?

[holidaysong]

if kaunaus takes rangers co efficients now, if they lose the next game and are put into the uefa cup do they still keep rangers co efficients. If they did then i would imagine they would be well seeded?

Their own seeding would be used in that scenario. They only 'take' Rangers' seeding as the draw for QR3 is done before QR2 is finished. Therefore it is assumed the higher seeded club will win through and it is their seeding that is used for the purposes of the draw.

[finnpark]

Hopefully the Irish media will have the Swedes boasted up well to feed their arrogance. Its a tough match for Pat so hopefully the media can do their best to motivate the Saints :)

Pats should have a few photographers and autograph hunters at the airport to meet the Swedes :D

[higgins]

I'd fancy Pats to get more points in their game than the two Bosnian sides. Certainly got the better draw and even if Pats grab a draw at home I think it's more than Bosnia are getting!
If Pats get a draw then Hungary need two wins, looking at the teams they face I can't see that happening either.

Would be a great season if we hold onto 32nd. Even if we don't we'll have two of our three UEFA Cup teams getting a bye to QR2 in 2010.

27th is our next aim :)

[pete]

Would be a great season if we hold onto 32nd. Even if we don't we'll have two of our three UEFA Cup teams getting a bye to QR2 in 2010.

With summer football almost better to start in the QR1 as could get easy draw & rack up some points but we lose that eventually if we to improve. Next year could shake up a lot as no more easy draws for some of the seeded countries ahead of us.

[bigmac]

27th is our next aim :)

Although Cup Winners into Q3 will not be seeded at that. It all depends on the regionalisation now. With 50 teams in the first round they may either not regionalise, or split into 2 regions instead of 3. Looking at the other northern teams in Q1 we have Faroes (2), Wales (2), N Ireland (2), Estonia (2), Lithuania (1), Latvia (1), Finland (1), Sweden (1) and there will be 3 fair play places as well. Hopefully both teams should be seeded in Q1 but probably not in Q2, again it depends on regionalisation. By my calculations, if it was a European-wide open draw, then the top 30 countries will have seeded teams.

[ifk101]

My answers in bold...

I've done a little bit of digging after Michael Keane's wages emerged. Keane was on €3,250 a week which is approximately SEK 117,000 a month. Aftonbladet recently reported (May 2008) that the average wage paid in Allsvenskan is SEK 61,000. I don't know if Michael Keane's wages were the highest at Pats but I'd guess that there are a number of players in their squad that would be on something similar. Based on wages, I'd imagine that Pats would be competing with the upper tier of league clubs in Sweden.

[ifk101]

Some interesting comments from the official Elfsborg website;

According Elfsberg's "scout"; "Pats play a direct style of football, with a lot of cross balls and heading".

On describing the match between Pats and Drogheda;

"It was like a match from 15 years ago - simple and fast".

Other observations,

"(Pats) had a useful right winger and the team is big, physical and strong. Balls in the air will be difficult".

[finnpark]

Some interesting comments from the official Elfsborg website;

According Elfsberg's "scout"; "Pats play a direct style of football, with a lot of cross balls and heading".

On describing the match between Pats and Drogheda;

"It was like a match from 15 years ago - simple and fast".

Other observations,

"(Pats) had a useful right winger and the team is big, physical and strong. Balls in the air will be difficult".

Yes, he was right.

[finnpark]

Based on wages, I'd imagine that Pats would be competing with the upper tier of league clubs in Sweden.

Which means that they are over paying the players.

2 rules Pats should adapt and any other club;

1. Never sign a player that has had a bad injury in the past 12 months.

2. Never sign a player that is just out of prison

[Torn-Ado]

I've done a little bit of digging after Michael Keane's wages emerged. Keane was on €3,250 a week which is approximately SEK 117,000 a month. Aftonbladet recently reported (May 2008) that the average wage paid in Allsvenskan is SEK 61,000. I don't know if Michael Keane's wages were the highest at Pats but I'd guess that there are a number of players in their squad that would be on something similar. Based on wages, I'd imagine that Pats would be competing with the upper tier of league clubs in Sweden.


Keane was on €3,250 a week which is approximately SEK 117,000 a month.

Are you sure thats right?

[ifk101]

Are you sure thats right?

Michael Keane's wages are correct AFAIK (see the Pats subforum and relevant thread)

€3,250 - forex €1 euro equals approximately SEK 9, that gives SEK 29,250 per week (3250*9) and SEK 117,000 per month (29250*4).

And here's the article about the Swedish wages if you want to read it yourself

http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/fotboll/allsvenskan/article2382292.ab

[soccerc]

Some interesting comments from the official Elfsborg website;

According Elfsberg's "scout"; "Pats play a direct style of football, with a lot of cross balls and heading".

On describing the match between Pats and Drogheda;

"It was like a match from 15 years ago - simple and fast".

Other observations,

"(Pats) had a useful right winger and the team is big, physical and strong. Balls in the air will be difficult".

Now that's why Johnny Mac messed about with the tactics and formation against Drogs so as to lure Elfsborg into a false sense of how Pats play.

Dunno what right winger he was talking about as being useful as Ryan Guy hugged the line in that game and couldn't cross himself in a church.

[ifk101]

Dunno what right winger he was talking about as being useful as Ryan Guy hugged the line in that game and couldn't cross himself in a church.

It was probably Ryan Guy he was talking about. Roughly translated he said Pats' right winger was useful and had a lot of "go" about him but that Pats physic and size were the things that worried him most.