LOI In Europe 2020

[Straightstory]

Dundalk is the Europa League is a bigger deal than kicking practice for the rugger buggers. The IRFU may be within their rights in refusing Dundalk the use of The Aviva, but if they approached this issue in a spirit of generosity rather than arrogance, petty-mindedness and mean-spiritedness, then Dundalk could be accommodated. Hulsizer seems a tad arrogant himself, so that probably hasn't helped.

[pineapple stu]

I think it's a bit of a leap here to say the IRFU have acted with "arrogance, petty-mindedness and mean-spiritedness"

If the IRFU had the ground booked and Dundalk came along and announced that they were using it without agreement (as whatever else, there was clearly no agreement here), it seems reasonable for them to stand their ground.

I don't know if that's what happened, but it's enough for me not to jump in with a two-footed lunge on the IRFU

[Asterix]

Kicking practice is part of the lead up to every rugby game. The Italians will be given time for it as well, they'll be given time for a normal training session too. This isn't something new the IRFU have just introduced to stop Dundalk playing there.

[Yossarian]

I don’t think Dundalk jumped the gun in announcing the games would be in the Aviva. I’m guessing that what happened was that it wasn’t realised that the rugby crowd would be using it on the Thursday and Friday before their game. The use of the Aviva was probably provisionally in place prior to the play off game. The issue, as ever, is Dundalk’s chairman shooting his mouth off in public instead of sorting the issue out in private.
It’s unfortunate that there is this clash and it would have been a sign of goodwill and cooperation if the IRFU found a way to accommodate Dundalk and their own need for kicking practice.

The bigger picture in all this is an ownership who seem to have no interest in developing a stadium of their own to play these games in, considering that they are open that their aim is to play European group games regularly. If they don’t want to develop our own stadium then it is ridiculous to publicly criticise the owners/operators of the only suitable venues for these games in the country.

[pineapple stu]

I don’t think Dundalk jumped the gun in announcing the games would be in the Aviva. I’m guessing that what happened was that it wasn’t realised that the rugby crowd would be using it on the Thursday and Friday before their game.
Honestly, that's the very definition of jumping the gun.

If they'd enquired about booking the venue, the first thing they'd have been told was that it was in use. (And this seems to be the equivalent of all clubs in European football having the right to a session at the match venue beforehand)

If they didn't know about it (and I know you're just suggesting this as a possibility, not stating it as fact), then it means they didn't bother asking the venue organisers if the slots were available. So they jumped the gun.

[Nesta99]

Kicking practice is no more than a couple of hours in he morning for one team and afternoon for the other. The full training session at the stadium dont usually happen on the same day. It was scheduled long before Dundalk had any need to use the stadium. I dont know how long it takes to get the ground ready for the EL but I cant imagine there not being the time to do whats necessary, The pitch wont have been cut up as it a light session and any scrummaging prep isnt done on the main pitch it. Dundalk and Molde could do their stadium sessions earlier in the week. I think that there just has been too much sniping between Bill and the IRFU, more cordial behaviour could have come to an arrangement - but this very public spat means heels are well dug in. Bill isnt used to not getting what he wants probably and issues in Ireland would be nonissues in the US.

i dont think the iRFU doing this out of spite, there s a clash in the schedule that coud have been worked out. One of the main issues would be the additional people from UEFA, DFC. IRFU and World Rugby and this could be an issue under covid. But again not an insurmountable proplem that could be arranged. Bill shouting in public was not very helpful!

[DCWA]

Why would the IRFU go out of their way at all to accomodate Dundalk?

There is no quid pro quo benefit that Dundalk could some day offer them in return that I can see or think of?

[pineapple stu]

Molde would be entitled to use the ground the previous evening (under UEFA rules). I think those sessions typically take place at the same time as kick-off.

So maybe it's just not possible to arrange a football training session on Wednesday, a rugby training session on Thursday morning and again in the afternoon, and then back to football for Thursday evening?

Either way, it does seem like the bould Bill simply announced the venue without bothering to check first. So that's his problem.

[WeAreRovers]

This won't help either. https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-40065317.html

The lack of understanding from the Dundalk chairman and owners around stadium management and the culture of Irish sport and business is astonishing.

[Ezeikial]

This won't help either. https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-40065317.html

The lack of understanding from the Dundalk chairman and owners around stadium management and the culture of Irish sport and business is astonishing.

For curiosity what part do you think wont help - that Peak6 appear to have made an offer around operating the stadium or the fact that the Irish Examiner has published this story?

[WeAreRovers]

Both the timing of the story and the idea that a third party could waltz in and take over managing the Aviva, no matter what the cash offer.

Never, ever, ever going to happen. Particularly not to a company that owns a sporting franchise in Ireland. Cuckoo in the nest and all that.

[Neish]

Both the timing of the story and the idea that a third party could waltz in and take over managing the Aviva, no matter what the cash offer.

Never, ever, ever going to happen. Particularly not to a company that owns a sporting franchise in Ireland. Cuckoo in the nest and all that.

100% Too many foreign but mainly American business people or American based consortiums seem to think can just come in to Ireland & Uk buy a football club and run it like sport "franchises" as they call them (but I hate that world when used to describe sports teams) are run in the USA. We'll just change the team colours, name, etc and sure there would be no problem moving home games to a location hours away

[Nesta99]

There hasnt been any franchising of clubs Peak6 have been involved in that Ive seen, not at Dundak anyway. So a loss making management company was being offered 30mil, all losses covered but if there was a profit it would be split. At a time when both the FAI and IRFU are talking bout being on the verge of collapse if they dont get money. Maybe they could have negotiated a better figure but i dont see a whole lot wrong with a deal that includes a lump sum and all losses covered. Even for 5 years it would go a long way to get over bcd era. Culture around Irish sport is pretty toxic at the best of times so might be time to change!

[Ezeikial]

100% Too many foreign but mainly American business people or American based consortiums seem to think can just come in to Ireland & Uk buy a football club and run it like sport "franchises" as they call them (but I hate that world when used to describe sports teams) are run in the USA. We'll just change the team colours, name, etc and sure there would be no problem moving home games to a location hours away


I know this has happened in the USA and elements of it have happened in the UK, but are you suggesting that this is prevalent in League of Ireland?

[Asterix]

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-40065530.html

“Vinny picked the players and why they didn’t play for him, I don’t know. But at some point, it’s about results, we expect to win. Our wage bill is double that of anyone in the league so we’ve got to do better.”


Even if dundalk were winning the league this year the players they have aren't worth spending that much money on.

[pineapple stu]

As part of that plan, Hulsizer admitted that Dundalk were looking to move up to 10 games each season from Oriel Park to the Aviva.
I think this was known before, but it does look like Peak6 are only involved with Dundalk to try get their hands on Lansdowne Road. No different to the guys putting millions into Drogheda/Shels/Cork to try get a big housing project going (well, except Peak6 don't seem to have put any money in)

It does seem like the league would be better off without these guys. They're adding nothing, and their plans seem dodgy. They don't seem to have accounted for the IRFU having the main stake in Lansdowne either.

[Nesta99]

I'm not sure how getting involved with Dundalk would sway an opportunity to get their hands on the Aviva. Sounds more opportunistic from the point that the FAI defaulting on their share became public knowledge. It would show amazing insight if they bought Dundalk to advance a plan to get the Aviva knowing that JD was cooking the books and a world pandemic would leave everyone in the sh1t....maybe they released the virus as part of the sinister plot!!

I'm still not totally convinced on Peak6's intentions but so far they have done no more or no less that what they stated from day 1. They purchased the club, including cash assets, which entitled them to spend it as they saw fit. Many of us disagree on their priorities, but now certainly under covid football, they are bound to be subsidising things with their 'own' money. Bill seems mad as a badger here, to me he sounds American and says exactly what he thinks - loudly! Never sits well in Ireland when people dont sit quietly in their place. Maybe he is completely bonkers but as an associate of sports investment firm they looked to offer basically a risk free financial break for FAI/IRFU - it was the IRFU that said that the professional game could be gone in Ireland wthin a year if it doesnt get government support, how rude of Peak6 to suggest an alternative that would have mutual benefits (im sure they knew all about and would care greatly about restrictions in place for the residents of Landsdowne Rd). Have people already forgotten how Delaney turned down €75m that would have cleared AAviva debt with some change, becuse the thought they could do better themselves, ended up ponying up €5mil for backing out of other deals and about a decade later need a 20mil government bailout and still owe €35mil on the stadium. The IRFU wouldnt be useless but the still have the begging bowl out and are turning down income and debt relief probably on a principle or some sense of pride - during extremely volatile financial times. I know Americans can rankle in general but havinga big mouth isnt a crime or that we'd be better off without these guys, giving the tree a shake can be a good thing sometimes!

[sbgawa]

Given the wage budget is double anyone else's not winning the league this year will probably mean major losses next year.....will they gamble on winning the league and having access to the champions path again in 2022?? Or cut and run with this year's EL money..

[Nesta99]

Given the wage budget is double anyone else's not winning the league this year will probably mean major losses next year.....will they gamble on winning the league and having access to the champions path again in 2022?? Or cut and run with this year's EL money..

It's certainly possible. I have my doubts about Peak6 the same as from their takeover, but tbh they have done what they said they would. That doesnt mean that the risk of being left high and dry is a constant concern. Maybe if they had a stake in the Aviva they would stick around longer. But all that aside, there is a whole lot of trying to read between the lines when maybe there is just nothing there. Eg moving up to 10 game to the Aviva, well we have been moving games to Dublin and with a run to the a group stage thats near 10 games anyway. I didnt see moving 10 league games as the proposal. Now maybe they would try for a Super Saturday type thing where 2 or 3 high profie league games are played over a day, but thats every bit as speculative as everything else. Saying that wages are double everyone elses? Well if thats a brag is a daft one and not a badge of honour unless the league is won and it results in regular progression in Europe. Agents must be making a killing on us, especially if you are showing your hand on the sort of wages willing to be payed and not necessarily to higher calibre of players. Maybe management didnt utilise the calibre of squad available for whatever reason or maybe scouting was rubbish, advisors useless or had an easy and willing cash cow. Loud, brash, and not at all the norms in the country, Bill will divide opinion if we were to win the damn CL. P6 will always be viewed at with suspicion. It doesnt mean that putting a proposal in for the Aviva is a marker of a grander plot when buying Dundalk FC, or that its even a bad idea for FAI/IRFU to consider under the current circumstances. I do think there is a time limit of Peak6 staying with Dundalk, this EL campaign may be the best timed progression as it serves as a reminder that in can be done - but probably only really by winning the league first, which needed a reminder too. For what its worth Im not fully convinced by FG yet irrespective of EL and improved results. Yes the players have taken to the way he has changed up training etc and he is starting from a seriously low point in terms of confidence, he seems well grounded, but over a full and proper season of if his first round of games had been Rovers, Bohs, and bast of the rest - well we have to wait and see. He could end up being a football genius...

[pineapple stu]

I'm not sure how getting involved with Dundalk would sway an opportunity to get their hands on the Aviva. Sounds more opportunistic from the point that the FAI defaulting on their share became public knowledge.
You might be right. But then what are they here for? It's not to invest in Dundalk; they seem to have hardly put a penny in, to the extent that the 2019 accounts did indicate that this year was do or die for Dundalk in terms of Europe. Is it to try move players around and get money from transfer fees? But pretty much all the players they've brought in from outside the league have been flops. It's all a little bit weird really.

[Neish]

I know this has happened in the USA and elements of it have happened in the UK, but are you suggesting that this is prevalent in League of Ireland?

No, but if we let more groups like Peak 6 take control of clubs I'm suggesting it may start happening

[sbgawa]

The proposal as pitched to the Press of giving the FAI/IRFU 20 or 30 million to takeover the running of the stadium for 5 years is a pretty legitimate proposal that it is hard to see why they would turn down.
The utilization of the stadium is brutal and there is clearly scope for more events . Are there any planning issues that would limit usage a la Garth Brooks scenario that make it impractical i wonder.
If there were no "strings" attached and the IRFU turned it down simply on principal then the Govt should be questioning why they are looking for a bail out when they are turning cash down

[Nesta99]

You might be right. But then what are they here for? It's not to invest in Dundalk; they seem to have hardly put a penny in, to the extent that the 2019 accounts did indicate that this year was do or die for Dundalk in terms of Europe. Is it to try move players around and get money from transfer fees? But pretty much all the players they've brought in from outside the league have been flops. It's all a little bit weird really.

That was my thinking from early on, use existing scouting networks they had access to and use Dundalk as part of their development, making money then on transfers. When the sold up at Bournemouth it didnt look so much like that. It'd be interesting to know what sort of 'deals' they have with player agents or if there is some attempt at gaining third party ownership type stuff. When you consider the sort of money that was getting thrown about in English football especially, it was bound to turn the heads of sports investment companies.

Maybe they do see this as a long term, slow burner investment, knowing that they are starting from a low cost base. In relative terms the level of money they use at Dundalk is tiny, and especially when they can use money mainly generated by the club from EL 2016 and now 2020. That they havent used the current world crisis as an opportunity to trim things like a LoI club could indicate longer term thinking. What their ultimate goal (making money and how)? well who knows as its speculation bar what they have said themselves - nobody really seems wants to take them at face value, or fears that they are a suspect bunch ready to twist the knife. Legitimate fear but again they really have just done everything as they said they would.

It is weird from the outside and we all have wondered what their minimum targets are or the point at which they are happy to carry on eg play-off round every couple of years. What would worry me most is that Peak6 are head of a consortium of investors, some of which I dont think are directly Peak6 like Jordan Gardner and Fred Spencer - do they have the patience and deep pockets to wait for a return on investment and what happens if they want out?

Just as plausible as any is what Gardner said at the very beginning, to build a squad that is capable of dominating domestically (in the top 2 for 7 years before and since P6, they might chalk this one off especially with EL run), regular progression in Europe (2 runs to groups stages in 4 years and progressing at least 1 QR 3 out of 4, within 2 years EL groups have been achieved), building a network to bring in players that may have been cast off by AFC Roma youths or the like with a view to creating value to either sell or improve the squad especially for Euope. If figures for ELC are any way decent they might stick around to see where thats is at. I dont think the club is where it can be or where P6 think it could be is business development terms. Their ownership is being looked at mainly on spectator facilities, now the wage bill. The wage bill is what they set so may not be overly worried, the club has been competative with this season pretty unique all round especially with the luck of the draw and single leg games in Europe. If they were working off a 5 year plan things are probably ahead of targets and possibly willing to suck up losses initially. They can move games when needed so they are not being pressed for capital development projects. Back to back years out of Europe and some revolving door managerial appointments the end will be nigh!!

[Nesta99]

The proposal as pitched to the Press of giving the FAI/IRFU 20 or 30 million to takeover the running of the stadium for 5 years is a pretty legitimate proposal that it is hard to see why they would turn down.
The utilization of the stadium is brutal and there is clearly scope for more events . Are there any planning issues that would limit usage a la Garth Brooks scenario that make it impractical i wonder.
If there were no "strings" attached and the IRFU turned it down simply on principal then the Govt should be questioning why they are looking for a bail out when they are turning cash down

That local residents got one stand reduced to a single level i'd say there's some tight agreement on the number of games and events caan be hosted. It could still be more active in non sporting events, Croke Park even has court sitting at the moment. The IRFU, in particular, up to now didnt need to develop use of the Aviva and the FAI were the FAI so its been lazy by those managing the stadium in general. It was tongue in cheek but I do wonder whether Bill was aware of restrictions on use which probably would make his head explode!!

[EatYerGreens]

My punt is that if Peak 6 did take over control of Lansdowne (which looks unlikely) then it wouldn't be long before they floated a 'Dublin Dons Part 2' idea.

I'd pretty much guarantee it in fact. They're talking about maximising the use of the stadium to increase revenue, which makes sense from a purely commercial point of view. The cheapest and easiest way to get more income out of an under-utilised sports stadium is to have a sports club based there permanently. Using it 25-35 times a year as a solid anchor tenant, including across the least appealing months for other uses like outdoor gigs etc.

You can just see a load of yanks thinking that Dublin should really have a team playing in the world's richest football league next door, and that they'd be the bright sparks who could make it happen. The Dundalk Dons, perhaps ?

[Nesta99]

I dont think you could rule anything like that out bar that they have said that wouldnt happen, whatever that is worth if it boiled down to money. I dont think they'd make the concept stick though, Dublin is already well carved up and Dundalk fans wouldnt travel to see Dundalk play domestically in Dublin. I'd hope that looking in to it would show that it wouldnt run or that it would take a generation to bed in at all so could cost them. If there is ever an actual European super league someone would float moving Cobh to Dublin.

[redobit]

My punt is that if Peak 6 did take over control of Lansdowne (which looks unlikely) then it wouldn't be long before they floated a 'Dublin Dons Part 2' idea.

I'd pretty much guarantee it in fact. They're talking about maximising the use of the stadium to increase revenue, which makes sense from a purely commercial point of view. The cheapest and easiest way to get more income out of an under-utilised sports stadium is to have a sports club based there permanently. Using it 25-35 times a year as a solid anchor tenant, including across the least appealing months for other uses like outdoor gigs etc.

You can just see a load of yanks thinking that Dublin should really have a team playing in the world's richest football league next door, and that they'd be the bright sparks who could make it happen. The Dundalk Dons, perhaps ?

Absolutely. You just have to look at the NFL to see how American businessmen and franchise clubs think. NFL clubs have their home competitive games in London at the moment and the number is growing. This is in a league that has just 8 home games per season. Moving a club to a new city/ stadium is standard fare in America. There is a lot of talk of even having an NFL franchise in London soon.

[sbgawa]

Dundalk are facing the AC Milan scenario Rovers faced big game and no fans which makes it very hard to monetize the games themselves apart entirely from the fact that it is really awful for us LOI fans in particular who live with our teams and have a real connection with our players to miss these nights.
The TV rights are included in the prize money so no spin off there, (Rovers had none either).
Basically win points to get more money(or qualify in our case which we didn't) and based on current form that is hard to see from DFC.

I won a decent amount betting on DFC to get through against Sheriff (Tx FG) but the bet for Thursday (sorry guys) is Molde -2 at 11/2 with PAddyPower.

I won't be putting big money on it so will still be happy enough to see DFC get a result but i cant help thinking this was the wrong year for them to qualify both from their own perspective and the leagues.

[Nesta99]

My hope lies that these games are all free hits compared to nervous nature of expecting to beat Andorran and Faroese teams. So have kind of already exceeded beyond expectations this season getting to the groups. It's obviously important to qualify for Europe next season but then grab a few points and you are not miles off getting income that could be comparative to 2021 European participation if we did miss out. Humiliation will be bad all round v Arsenal eg. Other games it will be interesting to see if temptation to sit deep at all comes in to it. FG must still be pinching himself groing from a youth coach in New York to being on the sideline against Arsenal at The Emirates. It could be a bit like the cup run break, where players throw off the pressures of a league campaign, damn all to lose, bonuses to be won, and play with a sense of freedom that hasnt been there this season....I live in hope rather than fear at this stage!

[Ezeikial]

If there is to be a shock result, next Thursday is the most probable. I would not put the mortgage money on it, but it is far from impossible

[ger121]

If there is to be a shock result, next Thursday is the most probable. I would not put the mortgage money on it, but it is far from impossible

As in the Molde or Arsenal game? Molde like Dundalk have been poor in the League but are finding a bit of form lately. I actually think Dundalk play better in Tallaght than the Aviva and of the 6 fixtures, I rate this match the ‘easiest’ of the 6. I would not be surprised in the slightest if this finishes 1-1.

[Straightstory]

I saw Lillestrom Molde play in Norway last year. Molde won 2-0 but I didn't think the standard of the game was hugely ahead of LOI level. Dundalk might sneak it.

[EatYerGreens]

Absolutely. You just have to look at the NFL to see how American businessmen and franchise clubs think. NFL clubs have their home competitive games in London at the moment and the number is growing. This is in a league that has just 8 home games per season. Moving a club to a new city/ stadium is standard fare in America. There is a lot of talk of even having an NFL franchise in London soon.

It's more than talk - it's a fairly solid plan. It was factored into the design of Spurs' new stadium. The proposal was that the Jacksonville Jaguars, who have relatively little support, would move over. That's why the number of NFL games in London has been slowly increasing over time - to test if the commercial appeal was enough to last across a regular season rather than just the occasional game. And that's why Jacksonville have featured in a number of the games.

Covid will have set this all back a bit, but I would still expect to see an NFL 'franchise' in London within the next 10years unless something unexpected happens to unravel that plan.

[pateen]

Is any tv channel covering this. Eir perhaps?

[Yossarian]

Is any tv channel covering this. Eir perhaps?

Virgin Media 2 are showing all of the Dundalk games.

[Martinho II]

Is any tv channel covering this. Eir perhaps?

Virgin are showing game pateen!

[pineapple stu]

Are Dundalk playing out of Tallaght for these games still?

[Yossarian]

Are Dundalk playing out of Tallaght for these games still?

Well it’s Tallaght for this one. Your guess is as good as mine as to where the other two will be.

[oriel]

Tallaght for Molde game, Aviva for the other two.

BT Sports 1 also showing the game on Thursday, and I`d imagine all 6 DFC games if they are showing the Molde one.

This is probably the best chance to win a game, but Molde will still be favourites in the betting. The form has improved at least, Derry was was probably best performance since Covid in the league, and probably in good position to finish 3rd now, so at least some of that pressure is off.

Hard to call this one, not sure Molde will be that much better than Sheriff Tiraspol, and we were 3/1 to win that game, so maybe a chance on Thursday, who knows.

[holidaysong]

BT Sports 1 also showing the game on Thursday, and I`d imagine all 6 DFC games if they are showing the Molde one.


Possibly only showing this one as it's in the early kick off window. They'll show the Arsenal ones too, but I would guess the others might be on their BT Sports Extra channels.

[oriel]

I'd say good chance BT will show the other 4 DFC games (Arsenal of course will be shown) as tomorrow night, DFC b Molde on BT1, Rapid v Arsenal on BT2, Stand L v Rangers on BT3, and all on at the 5.45pm.

[mcgonigle]

Interesting to see Real Madrid playing Champions League in their youth/training stadium. A neat litte ground but I doubt it's Cat 4 level.

Goes to show the majority of the regulations are nonsense, particularly in the current climate

[sidewayspasser]

According to Wikipedia, it has a capacity of 6000, so clearly not Cat 4.

[nigel-harps1954]

Interesting to see Real Madrid playing Champions League in their youth/training stadium. A neat litte ground but I doubt it's Cat 4 level.

Goes to show the majority of the regulations are nonsense, particularly in the current climate

They have a special derogation to play there it seems. Bernabeau is undergoing a redevelopment so they're able to play in their reserve stadium for the time being.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd say good chance BT will show the other 4 DFC games (Arsenal of course will be shown) as tomorrow night, DFC b Molde on BT1, Rapid v Arsenal on BT2, Stand L v Rangers on BT3, and all on at the 5.45pm.
As far as I remember, the British channels showed more than just the Spurs game when we were in it. They tend not to have the inherent condescension towards Irish football that actual Irish people do.

[ger121]

Good Luck to the Six Finger Banjo Players tonight! It is Molde not Milan so a great opportunity to get some points at home. I’m sticking with my 1-1 prediction.

[mcgonigle]

They have a special derogation to play there it seems. Bernabeau is undergoing a redevelopment so they're able to play in their reserve stadium for the time being.

Yeah I expect they do alright. Just pointing out the nonsense of it. If you cover Oriel in all that Champions League covering they were using it wouldn't look much different yet we've to shell out to rent other stadiums.

[Real ale Madrid]

Good luck to Dundalk tonight.

Fear for them a bit in this company though. Hope I'm wrong.

[pateen]

Link to the game, anyone?

[Nesta99]

For a change I am a lot less anxious about this game. I prefer to be underdogs, not really seen as a threat. To state the obvious we need to be switched on, no sloppy stupid moments and not helping Molde get a result. If we can turn all our potential in to a full performance we have reason to hope for points. It's as good a start there is in this group. We are better against teams who try to come out and play which I think Molde will do. Makes more space for the likes of Duffy, McEleney, and Colovic to get at them. Im hoping for a win and it isnt a hopless cause! If the football gods are smiling on us we could put in a performance of the season - we are on an upward trend in games with the game v Derry one of the better performances of the season. I hope Hoban has his shooting boots with him as every chance must be made count!