2012 attendances

[Green&whitearmy]

Bray v dundalk last night was probably about 700-800 with about 100-150 dundalk fans.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Wexford Vs Limerick 134

Wow. Has the interest, considering lack of any incentive to watch (promotion or relegation), gone in Wexford?

[nigel-harps1954]

Wow. Has the interest, considering lack of any incentive to watch (promotion or relegation), gone in Wexford?


Outside of the top 3, there's little or no interest at all really.

Really bemuses me when people say we're better off with two divisions. "if there was one division the attendances would fall off because of lack of interest".

[cornflakes]

Outside of the top 3, there's little or no interest at all really.

Really bemuses me when people say we're better off with two divisions. "if there was one division the attendances would fall off because of lack of interest".

Agree, we've had nothing to play for for months. The same would happen if we were in a single division but at least we would have attractive games against bigger clubs with decent travelling support. Better then playing against Salthill or whoever (I know we aren't a big draw either btw)

[dong]

Really bemuses me when people say we're better off with two divisions.

Considering ye are incapable of getting out of the division ye are in that's hardly a surprise.
One division is a joke of an idea.

[Jofspring]

Considering ye are incapable of getting out of the division ye are in that's hardly a surprise.
One division is a joke of an idea.

Considering the slipper slope the first division is if you are stuck in it for any length of time the idea of one division is no joke. If your crowds start to drop at all you are goosed unless you can get that bit of luck to get you promoted fast. Numerous games were the travelling support of the opposition is lucky to be ten will cripple your clubs and have knock on affect on your own support. Who wants to go to limerick vs SD Galway twice a season at home? Even top of the table clashes aren't attractive as you will be playing that team another three times that season. I know a few lads that will go to a few games a year and laugh at the fact we will be facing the same opposition 4 times a season. Traditional once at home and once away is the best way to play teams, games are more important and it's more of an occasion or at least can be advertised as that. I can guarantee you more people would show up to limerick vs st.pats once a season at home in a nothing game for us than limerick vs SD Galway in a game that will happen again about a month later. The same probably could be said for the likes of harps in a similar situation.

[Spudulika]

Considering ye are incapable of getting out of the division ye are in that's hardly a surprise.
One division is a joke of an idea.

Dong, there but for the grace of god - a poor run, some financial problems and you'd be crying into your pint looking for a single division. We don't have enough teams, players or fans to support two divisions, especially with no promotion-relegation system of an worth, the LOI is basically a glorified exhibition league of no interest to the FAI. However I don't see this situation changing as your attitude mirrors that of both the LOI administrators, the FAI, the me feiner club folk and the barstoolers. I don't mean to be harsh, just questioning why anyone would sneer at another club in such a manner and not see the sense in a single division. A 20 team league, 38 games per club, a top-8 play-off for the championship would at least keep things alive. It's broke, it has to be fixed.

[Jofspring]

According to the lad on extratime.ie the Longford town vs harps attendance currently stands at 191 people. I know he mentions other things on but I thought with it being a big game there would be a better crowd than that.

Will all fixtures in the first division combined this weekend even break the 1,000 mark?

[placid casual]

Considering ye are incapable of getting out of the division ye are in that's hardly a surprise.
One division is a joke of an idea.

That kind of outlook is near-sighted in the extreme, and only leaves the impression of someone with their head up their ar$e.

[NeverFeltBetter]

According to the lad on extratime.ie the Longford town vs harps attendance currently stands at 191 people. I know he mentions other things on but I thought with it being a big game there would be a better crowd than that.

Will all fixtures in the first division combined this weekend even break the 1,000 mark?

265 official now. Really suprised at that, Longford still breathing down Limerick's neck after all.

Edit: Forgot about the allure of Olympic boxing of course.

[dong]

Sorry lads but the whole concept of one division with no relegation is absurd to me. We spent plenty of years in the first so throwing that argument at me is a bit strange Spudulika and if you honestly think that barstoolers care less whether we have one, two or ten divisions well I find that incredible.

[Sam_Heggy]

How many teams have been relegated form the Premier Division in the past 4 seasons Dong?

[dong]

None? That's because of financial mismanagement at various clubs though.

[HomerJay]

Bray v dundalk last night was probably about 700-800 with about 100-150 dundalk fans.
To be honest. I thought there was 400 at most. Very poor.

[Spudulika]

Sorry lads but the whole concept of one division with no relegation is absurd to me. We spent plenty of years in the first so throwing that argument at me is a bit strange Spudulika and if you honestly think that barstoolers care less whether we have one, two or ten divisions well I find that incredible.

I find the concept of no promotion/relegation odd, but when we have a sport that has no connection to reality we need to adapt, as it stands there is nothing to encourage clubs to try enter the league - if there was we'd have a system from junior football to LOI. Memories can be short Dong, and fortunes can change fast, so I'm surprised you were so dismissive of other clubs below the Premier. Barstoolers would care if there is a league worth taking notice of. All things fill into the next, a proper league system, proper facilities, proper coverage, proper promotion and some of them will get off their backsides and take a trip to the Showgies or Tallaght or Oriel. they might just hang on in there.

[Sam_Heggy]

None? That's because of financial mismanagement at various clubs though.

How many will be relegated this season?

I'd hazard a guess at none there also.

Basically, what I'm saying is, your argument is pretty weak. :)

[dong]

As I said, none but due to financial mismanagement.
That certainly doesn't negate my point. Relegation is part and parcel of how a proper league should function.
The general argument here seems to be "ah we can't get any decent crowds cos were stuck in a lower division playing poor teams with less fans"

[Jofspring]

As I said, none but due to financial mismanagement.
That certainly doesn't negate my point. Relegation is part and parcel of how a proper league should function.
The general argument here seems to be "ah we can't get any decent crowds cos were stuck in a lower division playing poor teams with less fans"

Its a pretty fair arguement in fairness. For example let's say limerick and Longford bring between them 160 fans through the turnstiles of Terryland for salthill over the 4 games against limerick and Longford. In return both teams might get a maximum 10 SD fans back through the turnstiles not to mention the hit on local support as people can't be arsed to go out and see Limerick vs SD Galway. Then spread that out over a whole season. It hits clubs fairly bad and any interest that might have been formed is lost pretty fast.

Were as lets say Sligo, St.Pats and Dundalk bring 150 to Limeirck. Limerick will most likely bring a similar support the other way.

[nigel-harps1954]

Considering ye are incapable of getting out of the division ye are in that's hardly a surprise.
One division is a joke of an idea.

You must have a very short memory dong, how long ago was it that Sligo were struggling to get out of the very same division? How many years did ye spend in the First remind me?

I find it extremely absurd that you don't see the whole point. You're one of these people acting as if the first division is completely necessary, yet it doesn't matter in the slightest what happens in it.

[nigel-harps1954]

265 official now. Really suprised at that, Longford still breathing down Limerick's neck after all.

Edit: Forgot about the allure of Olympic boxing of course.

Completely shocked by the crowd down there tonight. Boxing or no boxing. It's a shame that a team pushing for promotion can only draw that sort of crowd.

Lovely ground, in a good place, and it just looked awful with nobody in it.

There was a great atmosphere for the last 10 minutes of the game, but it was hard to keep an atmosphere going for 90 minutes with such a small crowd.

The 40 or so Harps fans down really enjoyed ourselves though.

[Spudulika]

As I said, none but due to financial mismanagement.
That certainly doesn't negate my point. Relegation is part and parcel of how a proper league should function.
The general argument here seems to be "ah we can't get any decent crowds cos were stuck in a lower division playing poor teams with less fans"


Financial mismanagement aside (which is a symptom of greater woes brought on by desperation to stay at the top table - hence showing the graveyard that is the 1st Division), your point was that no relegation is absurd? Hmm, ok, now it's part and parcel of how a league should function, ok. Why? Some of the healthiest, most competitive and most attractive leagues in the world have no relegation or promotion, just election. Why does the LOI not benefit like those? Leagues around the world have relegation and promotion yet are dying on their @rses year on year, despite numbers coming through the gates and not solely down to financial mismanagement - so why run with something that won't work in Ireland? Clubs outside the LOI don't want in (for the large part), they don't want the expense, exposure and certainly the oversight/governance. But do we then go around in ever decreasing circles with tired old cliches and a few clubs clinging by their fingernails to the top table until they fall off?

I firmly believe there has to be a system of upward and downward movement of clubs in Ireland, but it won't happen, not in the next 20-30 years. So we need to work with what we have and 2 divisions with less than 20 teams to cover them in a tiny island like ours with scant public interest (the media interest is proportionate to - or even greater than - what comes through the gates) and a divide between "professional" and "amateur" clubs. One division, with play-offs to decide the champion, leave it running for 10 years, built a critical mass of support and gradually bring teams in. As the FAI said when Mons dropped out, they're trying to not chop and change each season, but now is the time to act. Be brave, be different and save the LOI.

[dong]

You must have a very short memory dong, how long ago was it that Sligo were struggling to get out of the very same division? How many years did ye spend in the First remind me?

I find it extremely absurd that you don't see the whole point. You're one of these people acting as if the first division is completely necessary, yet it doesn't matter in the slightest what happens in it.

Read my posts back and you will see I referenced our time in the first division Nigel.

[dong]

Financial mismanagement aside (which is a symptom of greater woes brought on by desperation to stay at the top table - hence showing the graveyard that is the 1st Division), your point was that no relegation is absurd? Hmm, ok, now it's part and parcel of how a league should function, ok. Why? Some of the healthiest, most competitive and most attractive leagues in the world have no relegation or promotion, just election. Why does the LOI not benefit like those? Leagues around the world have relegation and promotion yet are dying on their @rses year on year, despite numbers coming through the gates and not solely down to financial mismanagement - so why run with something that won't work in Ireland? Clubs outside the LOI don't want in (for the large part), they don't want the expense, exposure and certainly the oversight/governance. But do we then go around in ever decreasing circles with tired old cliches and a few clubs clinging by their fingernails to the top table until they fall off?

I firmly believe there has to be a system of upward and downward movement of clubs in Ireland, but it won't happen.

You obviously have a greater knowledge of worldwide leagues than myself Spudulika and I bow to that.
I also agree that there has to be a system of upward and downward movement of clubs.
Clubs should be penalised in some way if they perform poorly over a season, that penalty is relegation to a lower division in my opinion.
When Galway could not be relegated a couple of seasons ago (due to financial wrongdoings of other clubs) they played out almost an entire season without winning a game as there was no motivation for the players or management. They were a terrible team but I do not accept that they were as bad as that and if they were faced with the prospect of relegation they would have got more out of themselves.
People talk about attendances but who wants to pay to see stuff like that?
I feel I've said enough on the matter now anyways. Obviously some people have a different idea of how a league system should work.

[Trainee]

I agree that there should be 2 divisions

In 2008 Galway Utd got nearly 3,000 people to a must win game against Finn Harps, the following week we brought 600 fans to UCD. this would not have happened if there was no relegation

[Spudulika]

You obviously have a greater knowledge of worldwide leagues than myself Spudulika and I bow to that.
I also agree that there has to be a system of upward and downward movement of clubs.
Clubs should be penalised in some way if they perform poorly over a season, that penalty is relegation to a lower division in my opinion.
When Galway could not be relegated a couple of seasons ago (due to financial wrongdoings of other clubs) they played out almost an entire season without winning a game as there was no motivation for the players or management. They were a terrible team but I do not accept that they were as bad as that and if they were faced with the prospect of relegation they would have got more out of themselves.
People talk about attendances but who wants to pay to see stuff like that?
I feel I've said enough on the matter now anyways. Obviously some people have a different idea of how a league system should work.

I agree with you about penalising clubs, though this can be done in ways other than relegation/promotion - even if it's financial. Galway United were a very, very odd case. What we saw on the surface was nothing compared to the internecine warfare going on in Galway itself. Thank goodness my own club don't...oh wait :cool2:

There has to be a way to make the LOI work without destroying the positive fabric of football in some places. Crowds won't come in to watch dross, however well a team might do. I, personally, would love to see a system where a club can rise from a local league and break into the top ranks. It won't happen in Ireland for a long, long time, but who knows.

There has to be an iron fist used by the FAI (in a sensible way) as without their goodwill clubs will lose out.

[trevy]

391 at Waterford United v Athlone as per extra time. Another poor attendance in the first division

[outspoken]

Id honestly be shocked if there was 265 at it 191 sounds a lost closer to the mark, I was absolutely shocked when I arrived out of the club house 30 minutes before KO with only 3 people in the stand. The last home game (Manure XI) the stand was completely full 40 minutes before KO, where are they all now!

[nigel-harps1954]

Id honestly be shocked if there was 265 at it 191 sounds a lost closer to the mark, I was absolutely shocked when I arrived out of the club house 30 minutes before KO with only 3 people in the stand. The last home game (Manure XI) the stand was completely full 40 minutes before KO, where are they all now!

Funny I wondered the same myself, arriving into the ground I thought we got the kick-off time wrong.

I actually counted 210 myself just before kick-off, so 265 could well be right. A convenient night for an away crowd to travel one must say.

[gufc2000]

Dong, there but for the grace of god - a poor run, some financial problems and you'd be crying into your pint looking for a single division. We don't have enough teams, players or fans to support two divisions, especially with no promotion-relegation system of an worth, the LOI is basically a glorified exhibition league of no interest to the FAI. However I don't see this situation changing as your attitude mirrors that of both the LOI administrators, the FAI, the me feiner club folk and the barstoolers. I don't mean to be harsh, just questioning why anyone would sneer at another club in such a manner and not see the sense in a single division. A 20 team league, 38 games per club, a top-8 play-off for the championship would at least keep things alive. It's broke, it has to be fixed.

That is probably the most ridiculous suggestion I've ever heard. This is not the Rabo Direct League. Your suggestion totally contradicts the point of having a league.

[Lim till i die]

Edit: Forgot about the allure of Olympic boxing of course.

Excuse from the extratime girl made me smile to be honest.

A man from a neighbouring county is on telly for nine minutes doing a completely different sport that's gammy to watch!!

[nigel-harps1954]

Averages after week 21: (Missing Drogs v Bohs, Bray v Dundalk, Wexford v Limerick)

PREMIER DIVISION

Bohs - 1546 (2011 - 1,488; 2010- 1,835; 2009 - 2,366; 2008 - 1,993; 2007 - 1,924; 2006 - 1,463; 2005 - 1,976)
Bray - 1000 (1,121; 952; 1,169; 1,106; 1,200; 1,027; 1,550)
Cork - 2986 (2,128 FD; 1,693 FD; 2,681; 3,142; 2,897; 2,941; 3,644)
Derry - 1650 (2,135; 1,965 FD; 2,436; 3,363; 2,614; 3,229; 2,698)
Drogheda - 1012 (811; 859; 1,106; 1,631; 1,919; 1,751; 1,682)
Dundalk - 1088 (1,355; 1,877; 2,371; 1,459 FD; 1,406 FD; 1,078 FD; 474 FD)
Pat's - 1620 (1,346; 1,756; 1,631; 1,795; 1,910; 1,342; 1,599)
Rovers - 3340 (3,779; 3,794; 3,611; 1,468; 1,715; 1,089 FD; 1,539)
Shels - 1309 (781 FD; 737 FD; 972 FD; 986 FD; 888 FD; 1,690; 1,949)
Sligo - 2355 (2,103; 1,807; 1,756; 1,960; 1,448; 1,806; 1,794 FD)
UCD - 566 (558; 610; 272 FD; 546; 663; 546; 653; 306 FD)

FIRST DIVISION

Athlone - 300 (200; 354; 462; 387; 670; 421; 316)
Harps - 422 (433; 644; 480; 1,607 PD; 1,164; 428; 1,347 PD; 1,106) -
Limerick - 675 (569; 598; 429; 517; 670; 364; 669)
Longford - 392 (315; 230; 260; 406; 885 PD; 681 PD; 1,004 PD)
Mervue - 250 (349; 123; 166)
SD Galway - 205 (125; 122 - As Salthill Devon FC)
Waterford - 421 (466; 619; 434; 670; 1,181 PD; 915 PD; 1,513 PD)
Wexford - 349 (216; 343; 494; 767; 810)

PREMIER AVERAGE: 1679
FIRST DIVISION AVERAGE: 377

OVERALL AVERAGE: 1131

[NeverFeltBetter]

It still draws people. If the match had been on when Taylor fought no one would have turned up.

[Spudulika]

That is probably the most ridiculous suggestion I've ever heard. This is not the Rabo Direct League. Your suggestion totally contradicts the point of having a league.

How so? Can you explain why?

[osarusan]

How so? Can you explain why?

I'd guess that the idea of a playoff to decide a league title is basically a paradox.

I'm not really a fan of playoffs myself, although don't really have too much of a problem with promotion-relegation playoffs. But a playoff for a league title is something I'd hate to see from a footballing perspective, though I appreciate it could be seen as attractive from other perspectives.

[Spudulika]

That's the thing Osarusan, it can be attractive. We're so stuck on the Anglo-centric idea of a league title that we're, well, stuck. If we can just look past it, give play-offs a rattle, it might prove fun. Imagine if Limerick finished 8th in the regular season but then knocked off the 1st placed team and won the thing outright - Champions League football and all that jazz. Right now unless Mr. O'Sullivan pumps in a couple of million a year for 3-4 years it's unlikely to happen.

At this stage I wouldn't rule out anything that might bring some life to the league, and get rid of the 1st division (without any kind of personal bias of course :-) )

[mypost]

We had a play-off for the league in 1993. It had to be played-off again.

The league at both ends of the table should be decided by the amount of games in the regular season. No knockouts, no play-offs, no away goals. If you have done your business at the end of the season, you reap the rewards. If you haven't, then you prepare for next season.

[Spudulika]

We had a play-off for the league in 1993. It had to be played-off again.

The league at both ends of the table should be decided by the amount of games in the regular season. No knockouts, no play-offs, no away goals. If you have done your business at the end of the season, you reap the rewards. If you haven't, then you prepare for next season.

Why? I'm playing devil's advocate in a sense. If Dundalk (somehow) escape relegation this year I'd hate to think of some other system that would relegate them. Likewise if they won the league (might as well dream awake as asleep) I'd be disgusted if they had to play off for the title. But I don't get the reason why we couldn't have 1 division with 20 clubs, top 8 play off for the title. Right now what we have is not working, how bad would an alternative be - christ, if economics get worse Dundalk might be 8th and get a run to the CL :-)

[A face]

if economics get worse Dundalk might be 8th and get a run to the CL :-)

And that would really be great for the league and its chances of progressing, having Dundalk representing us in the CL


The league at both ends of the table should be decided by the amount of games in the regular season. No knockouts, no play-offs, no away goals. If you have done your business at the end of the season, you reap the rewards. If you haven't, then you prepare for next season.

Exactly, the best team over the course of the season should win the league, simple as.

[JC_GUFC]

We had a play-off for the league in 1993. It had to be played-off again.


Only because the rules didn't have any tie-breaking rule in place for teams finishing level on points.

I wouldn't be in favour of a playoff to decide the league but it wouldn't be the worst idea to have one for the Europa League spot. 2 v 5 and 3 v 4 in one-off matches and highest placed qualifier having home advantage for final.

[Mr A]

Excuse from the extratime girl made me smile to be honest.

A man from a neighbouring county is on telly for nine minutes doing a completely different sport that's gammy to watch!!

Unfortunately though I didn't think it takes too much to divert people from the LOI. Any counter attraction, especially free ones, are likely to hurt.

[Spudulika]

And that would really be great for the league and its chances of progressing, having Dundalk representing us in the CL to



Exactly, the best team over the course of the season should win the league, simple as.Dundalk could lose just as well to teams from Wales or Lithuania as the next club. What's your point?

[nigel-harps1954]

http://foot.ie/threads/168146-What-s-the-future-direction-for-the-league-with-19-clubs

For the record, I think a play off for the title is a bad idea. The team who finished first, wins. Anglo centric or whatever, they finished there on merit over a certain course of games, so they win.
However, a play-off for a Europa League spot could well be done.

As for too many teams, I made the argument before, sitting 17th in a 20 team league and having a big draw of a team pushing for the top few spaces who will bring an away crowd and a bigger home crowd is more attractive to me as a Harps fan than sitting in 5th place in the First Division, and playing Mervue, Wexford, even Longford and Limerick each week. Let's face it, the first division isn't attractive and needs to be scrapped.

An 18 or 20 team one division League of Ireland is the only way forward for the time being. Every other possible avenue has been explored and an 8 team First Division cannot possibly continue. Why not at least give it a try? If that doesn't work, the structure can be changed again. As per usual every 4/5 years.

[gufc2000]

How so? Can you explain why?
Because your rattling on about meaningless games and yet this is what this Championship play-off system would produce. There wouldn't be any need for the bigger clubs to go full throttle as long as they scraped into the Top 8. Totally defeats the merits of a league system

[marinobohs]

Only because the rules didn't have any tie-breaking rule in place for teams finishing level on points.

I wouldn't be in favour of a playoff to decide the league but it wouldn't be the worst idea to have one for the Europa League spot. 2 v 5 and 3 v 4 in one-off matches and highest placed qualifier having home advantage for final.

FAI Cup Final
EA Sports Cup final
Leinster/Munster senior Cup

None of these established knockout competitions have really caught the publics imagination, and with the exception of the FAI Cup have generated zero interest/profile/crowds.

beyond me why people think another knockout competition is anyway a step forward.


Results over a season = League
Results over one off game(s) = Cup

[Spudulika]

Because your rattling on about meaningless games and yet this is what this Championship play-off system would produce. There wouldn't be any need for the bigger clubs to go full throttle as long as they scraped into the Top 8. Totally defeats the merits of a league system

Meaningless games? Where did I say this? How will a championship play-off system produce such games? What are the merits of a league system?

Nigel has a point on a play-off below the top spot, but the most important thing of all is to get fans through the gates. The current system doesn't do this and the barstoolers can't be blamed on this one.

[gufc2000]

Meaningless games? Where did I say this? How will a championship play-off system produce such games? What are the merits of a league system?

Nigel has a point on a play-off below the top spot, but the most important thing of all is to get fans through the gates. The current system doesn't do this and the barstoolers can't be blamed on this one.
What I'm saying is, is that most of the pre play-off fixtures will be meaningless. The bigger teams won't have to really push themselves until they get to this stage. A league system determines who is the best team over a defined period of games, one that has a play-off system tagged on at the end doesn't.

[osarusan]

Meaningless games? Where did I say this? How will a championship play-off system produce such games? What are the merits of a league system?

There would be teams in 2nd or 3rd place knowing that they'll be in the top 8 playoffs with weeks to go - nothing to play for in the last games of the season (home advantage or similar notwithstanding).


but the most important thing of all is to get fans through the gates. The current system doesn't do this and the barstoolers can't be blamed on this one.
The current system is the same as most leagues in the world - there is a limit to the extent to which we should be changing things to get new fans in.

[Spudulika]

Home advantage would work with a double leg playoff, but there there'd be complaints about that.

I agree about the extent of changing things, though I'm not just gearing this towards fans. There has to be something done as the figure count makes poor reading. I can see Limerick averaging a couple of thousand in the Premier in a new/old ground. Dundalk are holding up despite things and if the Fastfix rumour is true then there'll be no excuse to stay away for the hardcore moaners.

Without a playoff system a single division of 18-20 teams can/will work.

[A face]

Dundalk could lose just as well to teams from Wales or Lithuania as the next club. What's your point?

So could any club, like Bray, Limerick, Dundalk, Cork City and Wexford Youths, and yeah any team in this playoff thing thats being mentioned .... my point is we should be only sending the best teams in the league to Europe and the team that finishes highest on the table is the best measure of that.

[Spudulika]

So could any club, like Bray, Limerick, Dundalk, Cork City and Wexford Youths, and yeah any team in this playoff thing thats being mentioned .... my point is we should be only sending the best teams in the league to Europe and the team that finishes highest on the table is the best measure of that.

I know we're on the other thread in regards to the league, though sending out the best teams doesn't always happen with the current chaos, nor has it happened regularly. Like the Louth County Champions, winning the county title is everything in itself. It boils down to the club and the LOI/FAI to make sure the club performs.