European Football 2012

[ger121]

Zestafoni are now top on GD, after winning 4-1 and Rustavi dropping 2 points away to Torpedo.

[JayC90]

Ludogorets Razgrad have narrowed the gap between themselves and CSKA Sofia to 2 points in the Bulgarian League. Ludogorets play 2nd from bottom next while CSKA play the team in 6th, before they both play each other on the last day of the season.

[Dodge]

Pats defo seeded in Rounds 1 and 2.
Bohs defo seeded in round 1, not seeded in round 2
Sligo defo not seeded in ROund 2

[SkStu]

Pats defo seeded in Rounds 1 and 2.
Bohs defo seeded in round 1, not seeded in round 2
Sligo defo not seeded in ROund 2

http://topnews.in/light/files/Jermain-Defoe_1.jpg

[bennocelt]

Pats defo seeded in Rounds 1 and 2.
Bohs defo seeded in round 1, not seeded in round 2
Sligo defo not seeded in ROund 2

Dodge, update on Shamrock rovers please?

[Acornvilla]

Still can't defend

[Bawnville Hoop]

Still can't defend

"Just score more than TNS do in July"

Back on topic....

Metalurgi Rustavi are still top in Georgia. Done a bit of research in to it and they are still top because they have more wins since the top 10 teams broke up in to a 'championship round'.


To get a seeding spot 1 of the 3 teams below have to win their leagues & Bayern Munich have to win the champions league

Georgia – Metalurgi Rustavi (Level on points but still ahead, 2 games left)

Bulgaria – Ludogorets (2 points behind, 2 games left)
Moldova – Dacia (4 points behind, 2 games left)

[Schumi]

"Just score more than TNS do in July"

He's a Longford fan, you mean Carmarthen.

[Acornvilla]

if he can't make his own funnys properly, don't spoon feed him :)

[adamd164]

Pats defo seeded in Rounds 1 and 2.
Bohs defo seeded in round 1, not seeded in round 2
Sligo defo not seeded in ROund 2
How does it work that Pats are seeded in round 2 even though Sligo were nominated as the 'highest' ranked team by the FAI?

It's surely not based on Pats having a better European record...don't all clubs take the national coefficient?

[Longfordian]

He's a Longford fan, you mean Carmarthen.

Harrumph and indeed :angry2: :angry2:

Seven years on and it's still the most offensive C word there is.

[A N Mouse]

How does it work that Pats are seeded in round 2 even though Sligo were nominated as the 'highest' ranked team by the FAI?

It's surely not based on Pats having a better European record...don't all clubs take the national coefficient?

The overall ranking is determined by the national co-efficient. How many team and which round they start in.

Ranking (http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2012.html)

Access list (http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/access2012.html)

But each team has their own co-efficient, used to work out seeding in each round.

team ranking (http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/trank2012.html)

cl seeding (http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/seedcl2012.html)

el seeding (http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/seedel2012.html)

A team without their own points takes on the national points

Oh, and each country's cup winner gets highest available entry position in the europa league.



Metalurgi Rustavi are still top in Georgia. Done a bit of research in to it and they are still top because they have more wins since the top 10 teams broke up in to a 'championship round'.

Can you provide a source for this? Whos on top seems to depend on where you look, and sounds like it would be particularly harsh if (finishing level on points) Zestafoni were denied (they have better GD and of the four matches against Metalurgi won 3 and drew 1), even if the other crowd had better record (of wins) in the championship round.



To get a seeding spot 1 of the 3 teams below have to win their leagues & Bayern Munich have to win the champions league

Georgia – Metalurgi Rustavi (Level on points but still ahead, 2 games left)

Bulgaria – Ludogorets (2 points behind, 2 games left)
Moldova – Dacia (4 points behind, 2 games left)

I thin I follow this.

Bayern already qualified so, if previous years are anything to go by, Basel would go into next round leaving abit of extra wriggle room.

IF Chelsea win then you need two of those things? No?

[adamd164]

Oh, and each country's cup winner gets highest available entry position in the europa league.

So am I right in thinking that all Irish teams take the national coefficient because no team has a larger individual coefficient than the national one?...

I'm just wondering why it is that Pats seem to be at an advantage by being seeded in round 2 whereas Sligo won't be when the latter are the 'highest' ranked Irish team entering the competition based on the fact that they won the cup...

[Charlie Darwin]

The national coefficient determines what round a team enters the competition at. Ireland's coefficient determines what phase the champions enter the Champions League and the respective phases each Europa-qualified team enters. This year it's the second QR of the Champions League, regardless of whether Rovers or Pats or UCD had won the league.

The team's coefficient then kicks in, determining whether the side is seeded in their respective round. If Pats had won the league, they'd have had a better chance of securing seeding than Rovers, while UCD would have no chance at all. That's why it matters so much which teams win which leagues, or which team achieves the higher Europa League berth from their league.

[Bawnville Hoop]

Can you provide a source for this? Whos on top seems to depend on where you look, and sounds like it would be particularly harsh if (finishing level on points) Zestafoni were denied (they have better GD and of the four matches against Metalurgi won 3 and drew 1), even if the other crowd had better record (of wins) in the championship round.



I thin I follow this.

Bayern already qualified so, if previous years are anything to go by, Basel would go into next round leaving abit of extra wriggle room.

IF Chelsea win then you need two of those things? No?

.....This is an article of the league rules posted on Zestafoni's Facebook page.

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ka&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fworldsport.ge%2FRead.aspx%3Fnews%3D 35777%26lang%3D1

Main things to pick out: The 8 teams were among the "Metallurg" has more victories (15-13).
At the moment, "Metallurgy," the leader, because they have more wins.


If Bayern win Basel will advance to round 3, a round 1 team will replace therefore Rivers would be next in line to be seeded should 1 league work out for then.

[SkStu]

.....This is an article of the league rules posted on Zestafoni's Facebook page.

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ka&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fworldsport.ge%2FRead.aspx%3Fnews%3D 35777%26lang%3D1

Main things to pick out: The 8 teams were among the "Metallurg" has more victories (15-13).
At the moment, "Metallurgy," the leader, because they have more wins

That google translation certainly clears it all up.

[marinobohs]

That google translation certainly clears it all up.

It does indeed, but who the hell are Rivers ? :o

[JC_GUFC]

Big games in Georgia this afternoon

Rustavi at home to Dinamo Tbilisi, who are 5th. Zestafoni are away to 4th placed Dila Gori.

The league format seems very odd to me - does anyone know did the results from the first 22 games get carried across to the Championship group, excluding those against the bottom 4?

If not it means they've played a 50-game season.

[Dodge]

So am I right in thinking that all Irish teams take the national coefficient because no team has a larger individual coefficient than the national one?

The national co-efficient contributes 20% to a club's ranking. So if a team, say UCD, entered Europe their ranking wouldn't be the LOI rank of 7.375 (http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2012.html), instead they'd use the club rank of 1.475 (listed as ireland here) (http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/trank2012.html)

On top of that 20%, clubs earn points for themselves if the win/draw games in the tournament proper (ie not qualifiers). Pats got a point for drawing with Hertha in UEFA Cup 1st round in 08/09 (for example). When the Europa league was introduced, UEFA gave 'bonus points' to clubs for exiting at certain stages, this isn't added to national score.

The list is
exit at Cl QR2 - 1
exit at EL QR 1 - 0.25
exit at EL QR 2 - 0.5
exit at EL QR 3 - 1
exit at EL QR PO - 1.5
make EL groups - 2

SO Pats co-efficient of 4.975 is made up of 1.475 (national score) + 1 (earned by draw in UEFA Rd 1 in 08/09) + 1.5 (earned by reaching Play offs in 09/10) + 1 (earned by reachiing 3rd QR last year)

Sligo is 1.475 + 0.25 (QR1 in 09/10) + 1 (QR3 last year) = 2.725

And just in case....

The national co-efficient is made up of points earned by clubs in individual games. In Qualifying rounds, a win = 1 point, draw = 0.5. This is doubled for group stages now. The total each year is divided by club entered to give rank each year. The co-efficient is the last 5 years combined

[Dodge]

The team's coefficient then kicks in, determining whether the side is seeded in their respective round. If Pats had won the league, they'd have had a better chance of securing seeding than Rovers, while UCD would have no chance at all. That's why it matters so much which teams win which leagues

About time someone started the "Let Pats win the League for the good of the co-efficient" movement

[A N Mouse]

The league format seems very odd to me - does anyone know did the results from the first 22 games get carried across to the Championship group, excluding those against the bottom 4?

This would seem to be the case, from what I can tell

The corrections on soccerway (http://uk.soccerway.com/national/georgia/umaglesi-liga/2011-2012/championship-round/) seem to correspond with that - most easily seen in the results grid on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9312_Umaglesi_Liga#Results)

Zestafoni lost full 24 points. Metalurgi lost 10, and have since made up the other 7.



.....This is an article of the league rules posted on Zestafoni's Facebook page.

http://translate.google.com/translat...777%26lang%3D1

Main things to pick out: The 8 teams were among the "Metallurg" has more victories (15-13).
At the moment, "Metallurgy," the leader, because they have more wins

Is anyone aware of any other leagues that use wins ahead of goal difference in tiebreakering rules?

[JC_GUFC]

This would seem to be the case, from what I can tell

The corrections on soccerway (http://uk.soccerway.com/national/georgia/umaglesi-liga/2011-2012/championship-round/) seem to correspond with that - most easily seen in the results grid on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9312_Umaglesi_Liga#Results)

Zestafoni lost full 24 points. Metalurgi lost 10, and have since made up the other 7.



Is anyone aware of any other leagues that use wins ahead of goal difference in tiebreakering rules?

That Wikipedia link says it's head to head is the determining factor, Soccerway has Rustavi top though so maybe there's something in the other theory though as Zestafoni are ahead on GD and Head to Head record.

[JC_GUFC]

Both teams won 2-1, Zestafoni with an injury time winner.

As you were going into the final day of the season (i.e. not really sure who's actually top!)

Rustavi have the tougher game, away to 6th placed Kolkheti Poti, who can't move position but have won their last 2 matches.

Zestafoni are home to bottom side Merani Martvili, they can move up one place but there's no relegation from this Championship group so nothing really at stake.

Games are on Sunday

[TheBoss]

Translating from zestafoni website, after the previous game: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ka&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fczestafoni.ge%2FFcZestafoni.ht m

The last line says:
"Zestaponelta great victory with the score 4-1, and despite the fact that the rating list "Zestaponi" and the City "metallurgist" present an equal number of points been accumulated, in accordance with the provisions of the 2011-2012 year XXIII National Championship, the championship lead in the Imereti region dwellers"

Zestafoni are from the Imereti region, so it looks like they are top.

[Dodge]

BTW, as Pats are already in, its not too important to us, but Zestafoni winning would mean Dinamo Tblisi would definitely miss out on Europe. Zestafoni play Dila in cup final

But other results went our way so its not critical

[Bawnville Hoop]

Soccerway has updated the table, Metalurgi still top. The official league site for Georgia have also updated their table, Metalurgi top also.

@TheBoss, The championship lead is held by Metalurgi so that is why they are top.

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/7682/georgia.png
Taken from the official website (Discussion is Zestafoni, google translator used)



Here is the championship table, if you're curious. More points and wins(which seems the main factor)
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/7788/championshiptablea.png

[A N Mouse]

Soccerway has updated the table, Metalurgi still top. The official league site for Georgia have also updated their table, Metalurgi top also.

In fairness you wouldn't take anything from the fai site as gospel.



http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/7682/georgia.png
Taken from the official website (Discussion is Zestafoni, google translator used)

Why display 27 games played, if you're only taking into consideration 13?



Here is the championship table, if you're curious. More points and wins(which seems the main factor)
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/7788/championshiptablea.png

It would seem to be a question of what is meant by this bit in bold from the wikipedia entry


Championship round

Zestafoni, Dinamo Tbilisi, Torpedo Kutaisi, Metalurgi Rustavi, Merani Martvili, Baia Zugdidi, Dila Gori and Kolkheti Poti ended the first phase in the top eight positions of the table and thus entered the championship round.

The results of the matches among these teams will be used as a base ranking. Each team will then play another double round-robin schedule against every other team.

Faced with conflicting, machine translated, posts from facebake, and the wikipedia article. I'd lean toward wikipedia, and kicker (http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/intligen/intwettbewerbe/georgien-play-off/2012/13/0/spieltag.html)

[JC_GUFC]

Here is the championship table, if you're curious. More points and wins(which seems the main factor)



I can't be having that, the team with most wins wins the title. Something lost in translation I suspect, however I think Metallurgi may well be top on the basis that they have more points in the Championship round.




Why display 27 games played, if you're only taking into consideration 13?



They've played 13 games in the Championship round, these are added to the 14 of 22 games the teams who entered the Championship round played against each other in the first part of the season.

As I say above I suspect that if teams are level on points the Champions are decided by the team who won most points in the Championship round of the season. I have no basis whatsoever for thinking this other than it seems to be the only logical way they're top.


Edit:

After all this debating over the Georgian league I feel it must be a certainty that Rovers get drawn against their Champions in the qualifiers making it all somewhat redundant! :)

[Dodge]

Wouldn't be a Euro thread without bringing up Vaduz of Liechtenstein. Lost the cup final for the first time in 15 years and miss out on Europe. They'd have beed seeded in Round 1. The other crowd aren't.

[Bawnville Hoop]

In fairness you wouldn't take anything from the fai site as gospel.



Why display 27 games played, if you're only taking into consideration 13?



It would seem to be a question of what is meant by this bit in bold from the wikipedia entry



Faced with conflicting, machine translated, posts from facebake, and the wikipedia article. I'd lean toward wikipedia, and kicker (http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/intligen/intwettbewerbe/georgien-play-off/2012/13/0/spieltag.html)

You can lean towards whoever you want, personally I've seen enough information to believe Metalurgi are top.
How can you believe Wikipedia anyway. Sure I can go on to that page and edit it right now......

Here's a direct link to the Georgian football website:
http://gff.ge/UmaglesiLigaTableandCalendar-en.aspx/

Oh and I got that link from the wikipedia page, where it referenced the goal difference part.

[A N Mouse]

You can lean towards whoever you want, personally I've seen enough information to believe Metalurgi are top.
How can you believe Wikipedia anyway. Sure I can go on to that page and edit it right now......

Here's a direct link to the Georgian football website:
http://gff.ge/UmaglesiLigaTableandCalendar-en.aspx/

Oh and I got that link from the wikipedia page, where it referenced the goal difference part.

If only the championship round counts, then the table should reflect that.

Given its the first year of it taking this format it possible that's there's some confusion over the tiebreaker rules - but the rules apply over a given number of games (13 or 27, at present).

I think the position on the table may be getting worked out using the results of the championship round, and then the previous numbers being added to them - without doing a re-sort, or being re-sorted incorrectly.

You didn't post a link to whichever german site you got the details for only the championship round from, so I'm not in a position try this my self now - but I could be disavowed of this notion by a full comparison of that with the official table.

[Dodge]

Spanish table 'during' the league and at the end can be slightly different. They seperate teams 'in running' based on goal difference, but at the end based on head to head. Georgians could do similar. Until its over, I wouldn't be getting attached to any of the half arse translations, or wikipedia.

[DaveyCakes]

Sheriff are champions in Moldova

[SkStu]

Sheriff are champions in Moldova

after beating Shels in the FAI Cup last year, it was obvious they would move on to bigger and better things but i didnt see this coming.

[A N Mouse]

Bawnville yourself and jc muddied the waters, by seeming to claim that the results since the split carried more weight - I got sidetracked focusing on that.

The simple fact is that the official table is sorted by points, then wins. Looks like this is a done thing in, some, former soviet countries - and probably other places too.

The russian premier league do it, though you'll have to look at 2010 for a points tie. (http://uk.soccerway.com/national/russia/premier-league/2010/regular-season/)
Belarus do it (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.football.by%2Fstat%2Fbelarus%2F 2012%2F)
Ukraine use goal difference (http://www.fpl.ua/eng/fans/liga/)

And tomorrow we may or may not find out, for sure, if Georgia use it. Or as per dodge's example its just for convinence until they have to seperate them at the end.

[Bawnville Hoop]

Bawnville yourself and jc muddied the waters, by seeming to claim that the results since the split carried more weight - I got sidetracked focusing on that.

The simple fact is that the official table is sorted by points, then wins. Looks like this is a done thing in, some, former soviet countries - and probably other places too.

The russian premier league do it, though you'll have to look at 2010 for a points tie. (http://uk.soccerway.com/national/russia/premier-league/2010/regular-season/)
Belarus do it (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.football.by%2Fstat%2Fbelarus%2F 2012%2F)
Ukraine use goal difference (http://www.fpl.ua/eng/fans/liga/)

And tomorrow we may or may not find out, for sure, if Georgia use it. Or as per dodge's example its just for convinence until they have to seperate them at the end.

I don't think we will know tomorrow even if Metalurgi win their final game. No doubt Zestafoni will protest in any way possible to claim they are first. Vice versa should they favour Zestafoni if the 'championship' rule is the acclaimed priority.

Anyway first things first.... Bayern Munich winning tonight.

[adamd164]

Chelsea win Champions League... so Rovers almost surely unseeded?

[Bawnville Hoop]

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/4417/seedingp.png

So there is now one spot left. If Ludogorets(Bulgaria) and Metalurgi Rustavi(Georgia) win their last game Rovers will take the final spot.

To get a seeding spot the 2 teams below have to win their league.

Georgia – Metalurgi Rustavi (Level on points but ahead, 1 game left)
Bulgaria – Ludogorets (2 points behind, 1 game left v First)

Sunday 2pm: Kolkheti Poti v Metalurgi Rustavi
Wednesday 3.45: Ludogorets v CSKA Sofia

[Dodge]

Chelsea winning last night promoted 2 more teams out of QR1. So now we're left with 74 teams in QR1. Of those 32 are Northern teams, 16 seeds and 16 non seeds (unless a Luxembourg team upsets the top three in their cup - its at the semi stage)

So if UEFA went with 8 groups of 8, and 1 group of 10, they could have all Northern sides together. If they stick with groups of 10, 1 Northern seed will move.

The 16 northern unseeded sides are;
FK Šiauliai - Lithuania
JJK ( Jyväskylä) - Finland
Cliftonville - Northern Ireland
Daugava Daugavpils - Latvia
Llanelli - Wales
Crusaders - Northern Ireland
Jeunesse d'Esch - Luxembourg
IBV - Iceland
Trans (Narva) - Estonia
Por Akureyri - Iceland
Kalju (Tallinn) - Estonia
NSÍ Runavík - Faroes
Portadown - Northern Ireland
CS Grevenmacher - Luxembourg
Víkingur - Faroes
Cefn Druids - Wales

So thats Norn Iron x 3, Wales x 2, Faroes x 2, Estonia x 2, Luxembourg x 2, Iceland x 2, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland in store for Bohs or Pats

[nigel-harps1954]

Chelsea winning affected Europa League?

[A N Mouse]

Chelsea winning affected Europa League?

Yep.

Let's see if I can get this straight.

Chelsea won the CL, they hadn't qualified through the league.

Spurs had qualified by league position, but after the whole liverpool row a few years ago each country is limited to 4 CL places.

So Chelsea as CL holders go straight into the group stages.

Spurs go into the the EL (this bit night be slightly more complicated because chelsea should have been in as fa cup winners).

But Spurs would have started in the CL qualifiers. So there some teams bumped up a round to make a full set of fixtures possible.

The knock on effect of that is one less team to parachute from CL qualifiers to EL qualifiers, so it needs a bit of re-jigging too.

And that may not be the last of it, depending on what happens in the spanish cup final next week

Probably explained better here (http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/access2012.html)

[A N Mouse]

So, both Zestafoni and Metalurgi won in Georgia, to finish level on points.

With no ofiicial confirmation I'd tell you I think the champions are, but someone might disagree.

[Bawnville Hoop]

So, both Zestafoni and Metalurgi won in Georgia, to finish level on points.

With no ofiicial confirmation I'd tell you I think the champions are, but someone might disagree.

They are having an emergency meeting tomorrow to confirm who are top.

[Dodge]

At least we've found a league as badly run as ours.

[Bawnville Hoop]

Technically, Metalurgi are top but you never know what could happen.

If they decide metalurgi win Zestafoni will bring it up to Uefa no doubt.
Seems Metalurgi are like a Sporting Fingal team, only around 3 years and the majority of the leagues fans are Zestafoni.

[Rasputin]

Technically, Metalurgi are top but you never know what could happen.

If they decide metalurgi win Zestafoni will bring it up to Uefa no doubt.
Seems Metalurgi are like a Sporting Fingal team, only around 3 years and the majority of the leagues fans are Zestafoni.
Would Dinamo Tblisi not be the most supported team in Georgia?

[gufcfan]

Soccerway has Rustavi top though so maybe there's something in the other theory though as Zestafoni are ahead on GD and Head to Head record.

I'd be surprised if Soccerway is wrong. They are usually correct, even with Mickey Mouse leagues like Georgia... and Ireland.

[Dodge]

I'd be surprised if Soccerway is wrong. They are usually correct, even with Mickey Mouse leagues like Georgia... and Ireland.

UEFA has Zestafoni top.
http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/association=geo/domesticleague/standings/index.html

[Bawnville Hoop]

UEFA has Zestafoni top.
http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/association=geo/domesticleague/standings/index.html

They've done that since they have been level on points. Fifa has Metalurgi top. The georgian FA website have Metalurgi top.. Nobody knows..

Decision imminent about who the champions is.

[Bawnville Hoop]

Zestafoni win appeal, Shamrock Rovers unseeded.

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ka&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgeosports.ge%2Findex.php%3Foption%3 Dcom_content%26view%3Darticle%26id%3D3312%253Aqq-%26catid%3D9%253A2012-03-05-10-17-18&act=url

Overall I think the league has done well to have Pats seeded in the first 2 rounds, Bohs the first.

Rovers could always get Helsingborgs, beating them takes their seeding for round 3. Latvia and Lithuania our hope.