Trapattoni - who would you replace him with?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yes.
And Roy O'Donovan...

[geysir]

Which Irish players have played under O'Neill?

I can think of O'Shea, McClean, Westwood, Dunne, Ireland... Any others?
Didn't Ireland move to Villa after O'Neill left?
Wasn't it the transfer that broke O'Neill's will to stay at Villa?

[tetsujin1979]

Didn't Ireland move to Villa after O'Neill left?
Wasn't it the transfer that broke O'Neill's will to stay at Villa?
It was around the same time, think O'Neill wanted more funds for further transfers and Lerner wouldn't sanction it
I was at a friendly at Dalymount Park, one of O'Neill's last games, and I'm convinced Ireland was there, and was booed by a section of the crowd when his named was announced

[tetsujin1979]

As for the dig at Trap relating to ignoring fresh faces and failing to effect genuine change, I'm pretty sure Trap's record of capping new faces was much the same as, if not superior to, certain previous managers. Has anyone got any stats on that? If I recall, someone did post the stats on the forum somewhere before, but I've no idea where now.



I posted this a while back, is it what you mean: http://foot.ie/threads/124532-Trapattonti-s-lack-of-experimentation
I'm actually updating it at the moment, so I'll have the complete list in the next day or so

As promised, the list of players to get their first cap under Trapattoni:
Liam Lawrence
Kevin Foley
Darren O'Dea
Glenn Whelan
Damien Delaney
Keiren Westwood
Wes Hoolahan
Leon Best
Caleb Folan
Keith Andrews
Noel Hunt
Eddie Nolan
David Forde
Ciaran Clarke
Marc Wilson
Seamus Coleman
James McCarthy
James McClean
Conor Sammon
Jon Walters
Darren Randolph
Paul Green
Sean St Ledger
Jeff Hendrick
Robert Brady
Simon Cox
Greg Cunningham
Keith Fahey
Cilian Sheridan
Keith Treacy
Stephen Ward
David Meyler
Alex Pearce
Richard Keogh
Stephen Quinn
Paddy Madden
Anthony Pilkington

37 in total
I'm not 100% on some of them, so I'm open to correction

Note: St Ledger and Lawrence both made the subs bench under Staunton, but neither made their first appearance until Trapattoni was in charge

[tricky_colour]

O'Neill is at 1/6
Tricky will probably make his move before the evening curfew on bets.

Already have my mortgage on him ;)

[tricky_colour]

There is of course an obvious difference between club and national management, the players available for selection
is at best about 50 as opposed to about 5,000+, so the technical and man management side of things matters most,
you can't transfer list players you have fallen out with and buy in a replacement. A manager who was good at wheeling
and dealing in the transfer market might come undone.
Not too sure how that applies to the candidates in question, O'Neil has never managed by national level, but I imagine
he is pretty good man manager, he is an intelligent man, and pretty diplomatic I expect don't recall him falling out with players.
I'd say big Mick was pretty good on the management side, with most players, there is one notable exception though ;)
Not too sure about the rest, some will be more abrasive than others I guess.
It certainly seems there were quite a few players who are not overly keen (no pun intended lol ;) ) on playing for us.

If you look back at Jack Charlton, was he not pretty relaxed in approach? So much so that he didn't know half the players names??
I think if it is more enjoyable experience for the players you get the best out of them, however the more driven players
who are often the best might not appreciate to lax regime, not sure if we have too many of them though.

[tricky_colour]

Has any Men's international team ever been managed by a female? The Irish are always breaking boundaries, why not hire a chick?
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTOOli_sjAxu7-E_6IjixMlfwlJy-ibwICKxysEKXZu9PG4ZYOT

Yes why not, boundaries are there to be broken are they not?

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article2206130.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Celebrity-Big-Brother-2013-Lauren-Harries-2206130.jpg

You might not know her in the states, but it's Lauren Harries from UK Celebrity Big Brother, she is quite used
to handling men because she used to be one, she has handled quite a few since then by all accounts!! :)

[back of the net]

Seems Hector Cuper is the latest name thrown into the ring.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/john-delaney-reveals-significant-interest-in-republic-of-ireland-manager-s-position-1.1529736


Am I wrong or was he mentioned before we gave the job the trap?

Anyway he has bee relatively successful with Inter, valencia and majorca but not so much with parma and georgia

[gastric]

Cuper mentioned in this article from The Irish Times. Out of interest does Dennis O'Brien have any say in the appointment or does he just fund it?

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/john-delaney-reveals-significant-interest-in-republic-of-ireland-manager-s-position-1.1529736

[Dermotron]

Hector Cuper would be even more negative than Trap. Favourite formation is 4-4-2 with 2 defensive midfielders.

[paul_oshea]

Remember the staunton era, when we could confidently beat the likes of slovakia at home? And go over there and score two goals. Long time since then.

Trappatoni shored up the defence but limited our goalscoring. IF only we could have the scoring we had before that with his defensive record. Proved that the negativitiy outweighed the positivity i.e. nullified our scoring ability and wasnt good enough to stop shipping goals.

[DeLorean]

Remember the staunton era, when we could confidently beat the likes of slovakia at home? And go over there and score two goals. Long time since then.

Yeah great times. Comfortably beating Slovakia 1-0 at home. And getting a 2-2 draw away is so much more impressive than a 1-1 draw away under Trap, with Keane missing a penalty also.

[paul_oshea]

And a bore draw at home 0-0!

It was tongue in cheek, but for all the goals we conceded under Staunton, we always looked more likely to score than we did under trap.

[Deckydee]

Dick Advocaat?

http://www.examiner.ie/sport/oneill-terrific-manager-but-no-decision-yet-says-delaney-243301.html

[paul_oshea]

Guus Hiddink?

[DannyInvincible]

you can't transfer list players you have fallen out with and buy in a replacement. A manager who was good at wheeling
and dealing in the transfer market might come undone.

Well, there's no obligation upon an international manager to select players who won't work with him. He can always select someone else as a replacement.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Dick Advocaat?

http://www.examiner.ie/sport/oneill-terrific-manager-but-no-decision-yet-says-delaney-243301.html

DA or someone who denied he was him was at the Sweden game...


As for all Trap's many faults, at least we never got humped by Cyprus, under Stan. Our worst performance ever. Probably.

[DeLorean]

And a bore draw at home 0-0!

It was tongue in cheek, but for all the goals we conceded under Staunton, we always looked more likely to score than we did under trap.

In Staunton's campaign (even though he was gone for final match):

PLD 12 GF 17 GA 14

Trap's 1st camapign: (including playoff)

PLD 12 GF 13 GA 10

Trap's 2nd campaign: (including playoff)

PLD 12 GF 20 GA 8

Trap's 3rd campaign: (unfinished)

PLD 8 GF 13 GA 13


Looks to me like we were every bit as likely to score under Trap, especially taking into consideration we had San Marino in our group under Stan. We had nowhere near that level of opposition under Trap at any stage really. I would even put Andorra and the Faroes at a much higher level to them. In Trap's first campaign the weakest team was Georgia who are always relatively competitive.

Of course, you did say that we "looked" more likely to score... but looking likely doesn't count for all that much really.

[paul_oshea]

Well ye can't compare because its over 2 campaigns. San marino, andorra, faroes are all bottom seeds, faroes are probably the strongest but still easy to get 3 past them.

For one campaign against the other though I see:

GF 17 for Stan. GF 13 for Trap. You can only compare like for like in the context of what it is. 1 campaign, and while we were awful in that campaign, we scored 4 more goals.

Whats very intersting about this campaign is that, we could still have ended up with maybe 17 GF, yet nowhere near qualifying, similar if not more to the previous campaigns with less games. It drives the point home even more now about the previous 2 campaigns.

[Junior]

You could just as easily compare it to traps 2nd campaing (20 goals) or his 3rd and most disappointing where we scored 1.625 goals per game versus Stauntons 1.416.

So what does that tell you?

Pretty much nothing.......

[Stuttgart88]

I'm not sure comparisons between the two are worthwhile. Both had to go.

The most telling statistic of all is Trap's home record. The worst in 40 years.

[DeLorean]

Well ye can't compare because its over 2 campaigns. San marino, andorra, faroes are all bottom seeds, faroes are probably the strongest but still easy to get 3 past them.

For one campaign against the other though I see:

GF 17 for Stan. GF 13 for Trap. You can only compare like for like in the context of what it is. 1 campaign, and while we were awful in that campaign, we scored 4 more goals.

Whats very intersting about this campaign is that, we could still have ended up with maybe 17 GF, yet nowhere near qualifying, similar if not more to the previous campaigns with less games. It drives the point home even more now about the previous 2 campaigns.

I think you're being very selective Paul in fairness. Even comparing Trap's first to Stan's first, you can't just disregard the quality of San Marino compared to Georgia. We got 7 of our 17 goals against San Marino... that's 41% of our goals in just 16% of our matches in the group.

Also, we only got one goal in four games against the best sides in the group, Czech Rep & Germany under Stan. One of those games was at home to an already qualified Germany, and one of them was a must win game in Prague.

In Trap's first campaign we scored five goals in four games against the best two teams in the group, Italy & Bulgaria... granted Bulgaria wouldn't have been anywhere near as good as the Germans or Czechs.

[geysir]

Traditionally we don't do well in dead rubber games.
Is it worth having a new manager in for the last game against Kazakhstan?
Financially? possibly a good few thousand more bums on seats, a better chance of a moral boost win, a taste of whats to come? rather than a bore draw.
Or would a prospective manger want to wait until next February, want to start with a clean sheet, having no connection with this campaign?

[DeLorean]

I'm not sure comparisons between the two are worthwhile. Both had to go.

The most telling statistic of all is Trap's home record. The worst in 40 years.

Completely agree with your general point but not sure why that is the most telling stat of all?

[paul_oshea]

You could just as easily compare it to traps 2nd campaing (20 goals) or his 3rd and most disappointing where we scored 1.625 goals per game versus Stauntons 1.416.

So what does that tell you?

Pretty much nothing.......

You can only compare it to the first campaign because they were both coming into the job fresh for full campaigns.

We also never played Georgia at away, we played them at "home" twice. THe same scoreline as we got against San Marino away. But you are right San Marino are nothing compared to Georgia.

[Stuttgart88]

Completely agree with your general point but not sure why that is the most telling stat of all?

Because it proves that he had to go!

Out of curiosity though, was Stan's points haul (17?) much worse than Trap's in any campaign?

[paul_oshea]

Thats what i was getitng at with my interesting bit.

I'm begining to wonder was the points haul very similar? The difference being for stan that we looked awful at times, and we were up against a clinical Czech team who finished on 29 points and a German team who finished behind them.

I'm begining to think how simple our arguments were all along though we made them more complicated. That group is very similar to this group, and we got well beaten in both.

Czech Republic 12 9 2 1 27 5 +22 29
Germany 12 8 3 1 35 7 +28 27
Republic of Ireland 12 4 5 3 17 14 +3 17

[Deckydee]

http://talksport.com/football/dunphy-trapattoni-took-ireland-ride-13091359974

[DeLorean]

Out of curiosity though, was Stan's points haul (17?) much worse than Trap's in any campaign?


We're only allowed compare first campaigns (Paul's rules :)).


Stan had an average of (1.41 pts per game if you include Wales game when he was actually gone... otherwise it's 1.45 per game)


-We got 18 points from 10 matches in Trap's first campaign... two games less than Stans with no San Marino. (1.8 pts per game)


Oh to hell with it...

-We got 21 points from 10 games in Trap's second campaign... again two games less. (2.1 pts per game)

-We have 11 pts from 8 games in this campaign... (1.38 pts per game)


The latter is the real telling stat and why he had to go, not his home record even if they are slightly connected.

[IsMiseSean]

What's Philippe Troussier up to these days?

[BonnieShels]

What's Philippe Troussier up to these days?

I was wondering who would mention it first... To the top of the class Mr Kyne...

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/dec/08/thefiver.sport

[paul_oshea]

We're only allowed compare first campaigns (Paul's rules :)).


Stan had an average of (1.41 pts per game if you include Wales game when he was actually gone... otherwise it's 1.45 per game)


-We got 18 points from 10 matches in Trap's first campaign... two games less than Stans with no San Marino. (1.8 pts per game)


Oh to hell with it...

-We got 21 points from 10 games in Trap's second campaign... again two games less. (2.1 pts per game)

-We have 11 pts from 8 games in this campaign... (1.38 pts per game)


The latter is the real telling stat and why he had to go, not his home record even if they are slightly connected.

So against very similar level( and sweden are not as good as that czech team)opposition his record is in fact a lot worse than Stans with relative teams? And from pot 4 seedings against pot 3 for this group, stan probably did better! You shifted the goal posts first! :P

The problem is he should have been gone well before this. Thats the real problem here, and there were too many blinded by his previous managerial record especially in the last year that were still hiding in the bunkers. Had we got someone in after Germany or after the Euros who knows where we could be now, we certainly couldnt be any worse :(

We always seem to let things go too long wrt the management of our international team. Too often we say he should see out campaigns etc, to the detriment of our own hopes. Its never happened where anyone has ever turned it around.

[DeLorean]

You have to be joking me? You're now comparing Stan's first campaign to Trap's last because it suits you best... that after saying it's unreasonable to compare anything other that both manager's first campaigns? Bulgaria/Montenegro are very comparable to Sweden/Austria in any case.

Anyway, it's pointless because we are in agreement that this campaign has been a shambles and he had to go. I don't think anybody is disputing that.

[osarusan]

What's Philippe Troussier up to these days?

Managing in the Chinese league. Before that he was managing a Japanese non-league team.

He was crap even when he was the manager of Japan. The team couldn't score under him.

[paul_oshea]

I saw that you wrote the stats for his previous campaigns so then I thought a little more about it.

If we were to compare the teams from stans first group was easily as difficult as any of Traps groups. But again it doesn't matter he is gone now, and he should have been gone well before now, and we might well have still been in with a chance of qualifying at this stage.

[paul_oshea]

Managing in the Chinese league. Before that he was managing a Japanese non-league team.

He was crap even when he was the manager of Japan. The team couldn't score under him.

Sounds familiar.

[geysir]

Managing in the Chinese league. Before that he was managing a Japanese non-league team.

He was crap even when he was the manager of Japan. The team couldn't score under him.

I thought he did okay with Japan, they did win games, managed to play well at WC2002 and were definitely not any better at WC 2006.
Not that I'm plugging PT.

[osarusan]

They weren't really that good at all. Top seeds as hosts - got out of a group with Russia (who hadn't qualified for Euro 2000), Belgium (who'd had a nightmare as hosts of Euro 2000) and Tunisia. Went out in the next round to Turkey. He also left Shunsuke Nakamura out of the world cup squad to focus on defensive strength.

No better in 2006 because they weren't top seeds like in 2002. And because Zico was useless too.

[geysir]

They weren't really that good at all. Got out of a group with Russia (who hadn't qualified for Euro 2000), Belgium (who'd had a nightmare as hosts of Euro 2000) and Tunisia. Went out in the next round to Turkey. He also left Shunsuke Nakamura out of the world cup squad to focus on defensive strength.

No better in 2006 because they weren't top seeds like in 2002. And because Zico was useless too.
Ah well, in that case you must have thought we were rubbish at WC2002.

[Junior]

Could Joe Kinnear be tempted from his Newcastle role?????

Not read his name linked this time around.........


Thank fcuk!

[geysir]

If there's any linking, Joe will be the one to tell us.

[tricky_colour]

Well, there's no obligation upon an international manager to select players who won't work with him. He can always select someone else as a replacement.


The problem is he is often severely restricted in choice. At club level you can sell a player for his market value and bring in one of the
same quality, at national level you will always be replacing him with someone who in your own opinion is lesser player (otherwise he would be your first choice). Sometimes it is not too bad as people will have different opinion as to who is the best player for that position, but other times you really feel you are bringing in an inferior player. Having said that it is quite often the case that the 'inferior player' turns out to be a lot better than people predicted I think we have seen a few cases of that, Gary Breen being one example perhaps? Paul Green another.

[tricky_colour]

I'm not sure comparisons between the two are worthwhile. Both had to go.

The most telling statistic of all is Trap's home record. The worst in 40 years.

True but I think he also had the best away record? You occasionally do get teams who do better away from home,
I guess these are teams who can defend, but are limited in attack.

[Stuttgart88]

Yes, his away record was far and away the best.

[Deckydee]

Gus Poyet anyone?

[Stuttgart88]

No, because he is unlikely to last the course. He had a great gig at Brighton but had his sights set on bigger things. Managing Ireland would not be one of those bigger things!

[DeLorean]

No matter who we get it's going to be a gamble. I think MON is probably the safest gamble. If he's a failure, so be it... I don't think anybody could really look back and say it was a foolish appointment. If we get anybody else and it doesn't work out... I would certainly look back and say "f*** sake, we really should have got Martin O'Neill".

We don't have the pace in our side that Villa had under his management, so it wouldn't surprise me if he went with more of an early days Celtic approach. We have decent wide players who can do a good defensive job also so maybe he'd use the wing back system as a starting point.


----------Westwood---------

---O'Shea---Dunne---Clark---
Coleman-------------McClean

----McCarthy------Gibson----
----------Hoolahan----------

-------Long-----Keane-------


You could swap McGeady for McClean maybe but I think McClean would be more suited to this particular role. It would be made for Coleman.

Hoolahan could be our Moravcik, with McCarthy and Gibson doing the work of Petrov and Lambert.

[ArdeeBhoy]

No-one can replace Lubo!

And how much better was Trap's away record over Big Jack's?

[Razors left peg]

Martin O Neill would be fantastic for us I think. Great manager who knows the players and wouldn't need to spend the first campaign simply trying to learn what players he has.

If he wants the job I would give it to him now in time for the last games in the group

[Stuttgart88]

Martin O Neill would be fantastic for us I think. Great manager who knows the players and wouldn't need to spend the first campaign simply trying to learn what players he has.

If he wants the job I would give it to him now in time for the last games in the groupYeah, I think you can analyse things to the hilt but I agree with the above.