Trapattoni - who would you replace him with? [Archive] - Page 2

tetsujin1979

14/10/2011, 1:18 PM

Don't people remember that it was McCarthy who f***ed up 2004 after losing the first two games then quitting. Kerr was only responsible for 2006 really. That group was there for the taking and the two draws against Israel let us down in the end. But the three teams above us remained unbeaten. W4 D5 L1. Too many draws. Hmm. Sounds familiar.
the debate over who was really to blame for 2004 will rage on for a while yet I think. Kerr's relationship with the press had yet to detiorate, although some of the warning signs were there towards the end, so he didn't get pilloried the way McCarthy would have been following the 0-0 away to Albania, or the last minute winner from an OG at home to the same side.
Looking back at the results - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2004_qualifying_Group_10 - I don't think there's any that he got that McCarthy wouldn't have, although the shadow of Roy Keane would have still loomed large over each one had Mick still been in charge.

tetsujin1979

14/10/2011, 1:22 PM

Incidentally, there's a similar debate currently raging on boards.ie here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056418188
Some of the opinions there beggar belief.

Stuttgart88

14/10/2011, 1:36 PM

I remember Kerr being hailed as a miracle worker for getting Ireland back on track in that group, despite only getting results that anyone would have expected to get.

I was quite fond of Kerr actually. Some really lame performances when it counted was what did for him in my mind. Desperately unlucky at home to Israel mind.

Speaking of luck & Trap etc., people seem only to look back as far as Paris. I go way further back.

Examples include:

- Heysel '81 - avenged in '86?
- Chris Woods not being penalised when England snuck a draw in Poland. Blatant penalty that would probably have qualified us instead of England. Still waiting on retribution for this one!

davegaasports

14/10/2011, 1:46 PM

I still think Trap will shake things up if we qualify, but I would think that a new manager would change the team and approach totally.

Charlie Darwin

14/10/2011, 2:13 PM

While I agree we can and should play better football, the attitude of some of Trap's detractors is amazing. Spoiled by the Premier League, which itself is no pretty painting for the most part.

tetsujin1979

14/10/2011, 2:21 PM

I remember Kerr being hailed as a miracle worker for getting Ireland back on track in that group, despite only getting results that anyone would have expected to get.Pretty much, anything he did was because of the attention to detail that was lacking under Mick's reign, not because it was expected. Read a really good article years ago about how, when a manager is replaced, the media and fans focus on his biggest failing and look for someone who is strong at that, ignoring what (if anything) was done right
AFAIR Newcastle was given at the example
Dalglish - sacked because of low finish (13th) and uninspiring football
Gullit - reputation for "sexy football" after managing Chelsea, sacked after alienating the crowd
Robson - strong support from the crowd, sacked after being seen to not keeping discipline in the changing room
Souness - reputation for being a strong disciplinarian

Applying that to Ireland
Mick - reputation for not doing enough preparation
Kerr - known for meticulous preparation, lost the dressing room
Staunton - popular in the dressing room, terrible at, well, everything else
Trapattoni - good at most of the aspects of game.

I think the public opinion of Trapattoni's eventual successor is that he will bring through younger players, and play more expansive football.

I was quite fond of Kerr actually. Some really lame performances when it counted was what did for him in my mind. Desperately unlucky at home to Israel mind.hmm, I would argue that replacing Keane with Kavanagh, moving Kilbane to the left, and Duff up front (when he had been destroying their left full all game) - effectively three changes instead of one (Elliott for Keane) - was the reason we didn't win that game.

jbyrne

14/10/2011, 3:06 PM

I remember Kerr being hailed as a miracle worker for getting Ireland back on track in that group, despite only getting results that anyone would have expected to get.

and then he sent out a team to put in the most awful lack lustre performance I have ever witnessed v the swiss in 03. after spending weeks chasing ebay tickets to get into the ground i just couldnt believe we could look so passionless

Stuttgart88

14/10/2011, 4:16 PM

I would argue that replacing Keane with Kavanagh, moving Kilbane to the left, and Duff up front (when he had been destroying their left full all game) - effectively three changes instead of one (Elliott for Keane) - was the reason we didn't win that game.Well, at least you haven't fallen into the trap of saying it was a defensive substitution!

I agree that it was a dumb move, but still think that the second half was a freak.

peadar1987

14/10/2011, 6:56 PM

Personally I would love to see The Boy get it, but we all know, he wont!

Have the Boy lay out my formal shorts:

http://www.google.ie/imgres?q=zapp+brannigan&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=575&tbm=isch&tbnid=Ajx_9b-PCinJbM:&imgrefurl=http://futurama.wikia.com/wiki/Zapp_Brannigan&docid=h2YMJbYAsVGNEM&imgurl=http://images.wikia.com/en.futurama/images/e/e9/Zapp_Brannigan.png&w=360&h=550&ei=o4WYTu-xMYes8gPcwuHZBQ&zoom=1http://images.wikia.com/en.futurama/images/e/e9/Zapp_Brannigan.png

SkStu

14/10/2011, 8:41 PM

While I agree we can and should play better football, the attitude of some of Trap's detractors is amazing.

WTF??

The attitude of almost all of Traps detractors is that we can and should play better football.

Charlie Darwin

14/10/2011, 8:45 PM

I meant the attitude that he should be sacked because people get bored watching the matches on TV, as displayed in the board thread linked above.

Noelys Guitar

14/10/2011, 9:57 PM

We need one outstanding player to come through. Or at least a couple of very good players. Then we will see better football. If Roy Keane was at his peak now as a player and playing under Trap in this team then the standard of football would be miles better. More than any change of tactics we need a few breakout players. Hopefully McCarthy, Mayler or a.n. other will step up to the plate.

ArdeeBhoy

15/10/2011, 12:27 AM

RMK would have made minimal difference, maybe more aggression.

As for 'stepping up', most of the current fringe players don't seem up to it, if any.

irishfan86

15/10/2011, 1:52 AM

RMK would have made minimal difference

Surely a wind up?

Supreme feet

15/10/2011, 5:41 AM

Apologies if posted already. Good article from Liam Mackey.

http://examiner.ie/sport/soccer/trap-will-have-the-last-word-170724.html

ArdeeBhoy

15/10/2011, 8:16 AM

Not a wind-up, he was more of an enforcer and ball-winner, than great creative force, in midfield...

peadar1987

15/10/2011, 9:04 AM

We need another Mark Kinsella!

Stuttgart88

15/10/2011, 11:17 AM

Apologies if posted already. Good article from Liam Mackey.

http://examiner.ie/sport/soccer/trap-will-have-the-last-word-170724.htmlMackey's great, I really look forward to reading his stuff.

SwanVsDalton

15/10/2011, 11:18 AM

Not a wind-up, he was more of an enforcer and ball-winner, than great creative force, in midfield...

That's Lee Carsley you're describing. Roy Keane was significantly more than that. And he may not have been overly creative but he still had decent vision and could pick out a pass better than the players we currently have imo.

Think a few of the fringe players could yet step up, too premature to write any of them off. Though I do agree the system will inevitably limit them. Keane was a one-off - not sure if any of these guys could literally drag this team to a World Cup given the way we currently play.

Stuttgart88

15/10/2011, 11:24 AM

Keane was a one-off - not sure if any of these guys could literally drag this team to a World Cup given the way we currently play.I still think that that version of RMK is overplayed. He was fantastic but he failed to stop Iran having 2 or 3 clear cut chances in Dublin which Shay saved. He failed to do anything in Iran at all, cos he had a big game coming up for Man U. :) Keane didn't score an equaliser in Lisbon, nor did he even play in Estonia.

He was a key player, - no doubt whatsoever -, probably our best, but in a very good, well-balanced team.

SwanVsDalton

15/10/2011, 11:29 AM

I still think that that version of RMK is overplayed. He was fantastic but he failed to stop Iran having 2 or 3 clear cut chances in Dublin which Shay saved. He failed to do anything in Iran at all, cos he had a big game coming up for Man U. :) Keane didn't score an equaliser in Lisbon, nor did he even play in Estonia.

He was a key player, - no doubt whatsoever -, probably our best, but in a very good, well-balanced team.

Maybe it's overplayed but it was still ridiculous what he did in a couple of those games. Ireland has never had a player who could exert that kind of influence through sheer force of will alone.

Stuttgart88

15/10/2011, 11:37 AM

Portugal at home was unreal, alright.

Influence is they key word. Whatever about what he actually did with the ball, his ability to influence a game at the very highest level just by doing basic stuff excellently is rarely seen.

SkStu

15/10/2011, 3:45 PM

Cyprus away.

Charlie Darwin

15/10/2011, 3:58 PM

He also started the move for McAteer's winner against Holland. He carried the team through a lot of dodgy games, and it's to Holland and Kinsella's credit that they were able to fill the void at the World Cup.

irishfan86

16/10/2011, 6:31 AM

Keane was a destroyer, no doubt, but he was a playmaker in the way of short pass and move plays. A lot of his passes didn't look that spectactular because they weren't often the artistic long-range Andy Reid pinpoint style passes.

But anyway my point was that ArdeeBhoy's comment that Roy Keane would make "minimal difference" is absurd.

ArdeeBhoy

16/10/2011, 9:21 AM

No, he was an egotistical tosser who only turned up when He fancied it.
And always will be.
Feck him.

geysir

16/10/2011, 10:29 AM

There is a bit of a stand off as regards to a new contract for Trap according to an article by Fanning in the Indo. (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/trapattoni-ups-the-ante-with-threat-to-walk-away-2907582.html)
I'd support the FAI's stance totally, no talks until the play offs are done and dusted.

peadar1987

16/10/2011, 10:50 AM

No, he was an egotistical tosser who only turned up when He fancied it.
And always will be.
Feck him.

Being an egotistical tosser, and being rather good at football aren't mutually exclusive. I hate Keane with a fiery passion, but not even I can deny he was one hell of a player.

ArdeeBhoy

16/10/2011, 12:39 PM

Maybe, but it's got feck all to do with who should replace Trap.
Unless you're suggesting that bottler?

BonnieShels

16/10/2011, 1:09 PM

geysir

16/10/2011, 2:18 PM

mypost

16/10/2011, 9:33 PM

I think the public opinion of Trapattoni's eventual successor is that he will bring through younger players, and play more expansive football.

Everyone wants to play like Barcelona/Spain, but they don't realise we can't do that. We try to play open, attacking football against the best in Europe and the goals will fly in, only in our net though. The two best teams have got out of the group, and the other teams in the group who tried to play like Barcelona, will watch the tournament on the sofa next year.

The game isn't only about one-touch, two-touch passing though. Team spirit, grafting, and a refusal to give in are as important. Sure, some teams can outpass our midfield. But can they stick at it when under pressure? Have they got the resilience not to buckle? Russia did to an extent at Lansdowne. However, there was a huge contrast between the Russia of the first hour and the Russia of the last 20 minutes clinging on to a game they looked to have well won. On another day, they wouldn't have.

We have come on leaps and bounds in the past 4 years. It should be appreciated and congratulated.

Stuttgart88

17/10/2011, 9:56 AM

elroy

17/10/2011, 12:27 PM

tetsujin1979

17/10/2011, 12:32 PM

Everything else being equal (OK, which is a stretch) the wicked deflection off Dunne for Russia's 3rd goal was what stopped us winning that group. Luck goes the other way too.

2-2 and we were straight into the Euros.In my experience, you get lucky in individual games, or even individual incidents (e.g. Macedonia missing a penalty) but over a season, or a series of qualifiers it has very little bearing on the final result, compared with organisation and preparation

Wolfie

17/10/2011, 12:51 PM

hmm, I would argue that replacing Keane with Kavanagh, moving Kilbane to the left, and Duff up front (when he had been destroying their left full all game) - effectively three changes instead of one (Elliott for Keane) - was the reason we didn't win that game.

I agree that it was a dumb move, but still think that the second half was a freak.

I saw a televised interview with Kerr where he rationalised his non introduction of Elliott.

To paraphrase Kerr, he said that he'd been severly criticised for this decision but that the supporters or the media had not seen Elliott's performance in training.

Kerr effectively stated that Elliott was not playing well and that he'd put in a very poor display in training.

I still think he should have had enough faith in the player to deliver in the game itself. This was the man who bailed him out in the Faroe's fixture.

Wolfie

17/10/2011, 1:08 PM

Everything else being equal (OK, which is a stretch) the wicked deflection off Dunne for Russia's 3rd goal was what stopped us winning that group. Luck goes the other way too.

2-2 and we were straight into the Euros.

Add to that Keane's double f*ck up against the Slovaks home and away - missed peno (Away) and free header with minutes to go (Home).

That said - the charmed life our goal had against Russia away and some key decisions falling our way against Armenia balance it out somewhat.

tetsujin1979

17/10/2011, 1:10 PM

I saw a televised interview with Kerr where he rationalised his non introduction of Elliott.

To paraphrase Kerr, he said that he'd been severly criticised for this decision but that the supporters or the media had not seen Elliott's performance in training.

Kerr effectively stated that Elliott was not playing well and that he'd put in a very poor display in training.

I still think he should have had enough faith in the player to deliver in the game itself. This was the man who bailed him out in the Faroe's fixture.Which was the following wednesday!

Wolfie

17/10/2011, 1:13 PM

Consider this

To data, I have regarded the qualification for 2002 as the greatest of our qualification successes, primarily due to the quality of opposition in our group. Sure 88 was the breakthrough but for a period of 5-8 years, Carlton had some serious talent at his disposal.

If we progress pat Estonia and qualufy, I think it will be of greatest, not because of the quality we faced in our group, more so the level of quality possessed in our squad.

That said, at least 4 of our current starting 11 would arguably be many punters shout to make an all-time Ireland XI.

Given, Dunne, Duff and Robbie Keane.

Some would possibly add John O'Shea as well.

Fair enough, all of the above are past their prime but this squad are not the motley crew they're sometimes painted as. There is still quality there, its just the individual quality must fit into the system.

Wolfie

17/10/2011, 1:28 PM

I don't think the info in the article is tripe just by association with the Indo and Fanning.
The article over-eggs the drama but there is enough there to suggest that Trap was making public noises about a new contract before the play offs, some mild hissy threat and we know the FAI are not rushing in with a new contract before the play offs.

I wonder is Fanning going to renew his "El Tel for Ireland" campaign!!

A Paul Hyland article in the Herald last week was making reference (Hyland didn't substantiate the reference, of course) to Martin O'Neill waiting in the wings if Trapp leaves. No finer detail provided bar referencing O'Neill's name.

Stuttgart88

17/10/2011, 1:42 PM

FAI insiders relaxed over Trap's contract (http://www.examiner.ie/sport/soccer/fai-trap-contract-no-worry-170925.html)

Noelys Guitar

07/09/2012, 10:41 PM

I would guess that Mick McCarthy is the one that the FAI will approach if Trapatonni walks/is fired (I don't believe Trap will still be in charge come the Germany game). Mick is available. Knows all the players and knows international football. Might well be happy with a short term contract. Will be within the budget of what the FAI can afford to pay. Team sure to give away at least three last minute goals if McCarthy does get the job. Bradys performance tonight on RTE won't have helped his chances and I really hope he is not even considered. Keane might be the popular choice and I would not completely rule him out. And I have no idea what O'Leary is doing at the moment but he might be considered. Redknapp might be interested if O'Brien stumps up the big bucks but huge longshot. For me it is between McCarthy, Keane and O'Leary in that order.

ArdeeBhoy

07/09/2012, 11:03 PM

O'Driscoll should be ahead of the latter two, both of whom would be a disaster.

Noelys Guitar

07/09/2012, 11:12 PM

O'Driscoll should be ahead of the latter two, both of whom would be a disaster.
I can't see any manager leaving a club job to manage Ireland. Not enough money this time around. Will have to be somebody out of work and who won't be looking for a big payday.

Murfinator

08/09/2012, 12:15 AM

I don't believe Trap will still be in charge come the Germany game

Are you actually insane?

Noelys Guitar

08/09/2012, 12:24 AM

Are you actually insane?
No. But your just a troll.

Supreme feet

08/09/2012, 12:52 AM

No. But your just a troll.

He has a valid point on this thread. There is no way Trap will be gone within the next four weeks. Sacking him would be insanity from a financial POV, and in pragmatic terms there is no grounds for sacking, seeing as we have three points. The FAI didn't sack McCarthy after our loss to Macedonia in '98, after all. Or our 0-0 draws against Lithuania and Iceland at home in the same campaign. Or our draw with Macedonia two and a half years later, which cost us a place in Euro 2000. Or Kerr after the shambolic 2-1 win at home to Albania, when we needed a 90th minute own goal. Or Staunton after Cyprus. What makes you think the FAI are going to change tack now?

After today, I don't think Trap should be in the job; he's taken this team as far as he can, and some of his selections are getting increasingly bizarre. But he's not going to be sacked, so talk of a successor should be deferred until November 2013.

Kingdom

08/09/2012, 1:43 AM

O'Driscoll should be ahead of the latter two, both of whom would be a disaster.

I guarantee you the majority of people think you're taking the **** and are talking about Brian.

SkStu

08/09/2012, 3:20 AM

The only way Trap will be gone before the end of this campaign will be a string of defeats. Defeats to Germany and Sweden will be tolerated. It's a crying shame and, again, you have to question the contract extension or at least the timing of such.

Spudulika

08/09/2012, 4:08 AM

I said it before and say it again, His Royal Highness Lord Anthony O'Reilly, the answer to all Ireland's ills. He was a young rugby star don't you know. He'd have INM and RTE eating out of his toe cracks (jam and all) and he'd quickly move to appoint Eoghan Harris as media relations officer (with a focus on RTE, since they rejected him), Richard Sadlier as chief footstool (and player masseur) and Laughing Bill as chief toadstool (and junior media relations intern). Okay, with the new Indo editor it might be a bit tricky, but Neon Dion will make sure the new regime get top billing, so too with Dan the Man, while over in the Heddild the "inspired" decision by HRH to reside on the mainland means he can take in all the Premiership matches he needs, as well as 6 Nations and Autumn internationals. Gotta love Ireland. Can't way for Joooooeeee Duffy! on Monday.