Trapattoni - who would you replace him with?

[barney]

Surely that is the definition of vague. If not, which recent results have been good?

Of course we had tough opponents in the Euro finals, but Ireland teams in the past rarely capitulated and yielded possession and initiative like we have done versus Russia twice, Croatia, Spain and Italy. We had better performances versus big teams under Jack, Mick, even Kerr (France away). We haven't seen anything like that in three years under Trap. I think that's specific enough.

Okay, over the last 12 months we have played 13 games - we have lost 3. Those three were against undeniably better sides (poor performances notwithstanding).

Competitively we have won 4, drawn 1 and lost 3.
In friendlies we have won 2, drawn 3 and lost 0.
Overall, we have won 6, drawn 4 and lost 3.

Results wise, we have done pretty well over the last 12 months.

How much better, purely on results, do you think we could/should have done.

[p2011]

Edmundo's list is a good start, but I wouldn't regard the likes of Russia away as being in any way satisfactory, and a lot of the good performances are in minor/non-competitive games. The overall balance is fairly negative if you ask me.

"an adjustment in the approach would improve our likelihood of success" is exactly what I'm trying to say, and I'm all for nuanced argument. Performances/tactics/selectionare are at least as important as results in terms of analysing trends, because performances/tactics/selection will get us results and points in the long term. Depending on divine intervention (the draw v Russia and getting drawn against Estonia) isn't a reliable approach for the future. I think a change of tactics/selection will bring us more points this time round, and that will only happen under a new manager.

[Stuttgart88]

OwlsFan, I was always sceptical that the Euro would ever work, but I was a dyed-in-the-wool supporter of the project because of who opposed it (here in the UK - right wing nut jobs and xenophopes basically). Though I'm a bit Trap-sceptic (Trap-cautious maybe) at the moment I'm generally supportive of him because of who opposes him!

[OwlsFan]

I scrolled through the Scottish starting XI vs Macedonia and we are a better team in probably 7 or 8 out of 11 positions). Also, nobody is calling for pretty football over more effective football..

Without getting side-tracked and I know you were talking about the team which played Macedonia, which of McGregor (Besiktas); Hutton (Aston Villa), Caldwell (Wigan); Snodgrass (Norwich); Morrison (West Brom), Adam (Stoke), Mackie (QPR), Darren Fletcher (Man U) and Scott Browne (Celtic) would not be worth a place in the Irish team or at least on the bench?

I would certainly play McGregor, Hutton, Adam, Fletcher, Brown at least and probably Caldwell.

Interesting that the Scottish fans have turned on Levein, why? Not because of style of football or selections (although many want Jordan Rhodes) to start, but because of results!!

p.s. I know Brown and Fletcher are injured but they have played in the past number of unsuccessful Scottish teams while we have got to play offs and qualified.

[Supreme feet]

I think a change of tactics/selection will bring us more points this time round, and that will only happen under a new manager.

It could happen, with the right appointment. However, there is more likelihood of getting a mediocre manager and losing everything we've gained under Trap; discipline, work-rate, and consistency against weaker sides. In other words, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, slipping down the seedings, and ending up perennial also-rans like Scotland/Hungary/Bulgaria. Talk of replacing him/sacking him is pointless, because it's not going to happen, for financial reasons as much as anything else. And if the FAI did bow to pressure from fans and media and sack him, what top manager in their right mind would want to take the job?

Subtle changes are needed - and I think/hope Trap is on the road to realising that, considering the personnel and tactics for the Oman game. I must admit, though, it is frustrating/worrying seeing the likes of O'Shea, Ward, Whelan and Andrews picked repeatedly, and this weird new development of strikers on the wing.

[p2011]

It could happen, with the right appointment. However, there is more likelihood of getting a mediocre manager and losing everything we've gained under Trap; discipline, work-rate, and consistency against weaker sides. In other words, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, slipping down the seedings, and ending up perennial also-rans like Scotland/Hungary/Bulgaria. Talk of replacing him/sacking him is pointless, because it's not going to happen, for financial reasons as much as anything else. And if the FAI did bow to pressure from fans and media and sack him, what top manager in their right mind would want to take the job?

Subtle changes are needed - and I think/hope Trap is on the road to realising that, considering the personnel and tactics for the Oman game. I must admit, though, it is frustrating/worrying seeing the likes of O'Shea, Ward, Whelan and Andrews picked repeatedly, and this weird new development of strikers on the wing.

But in recent times, "discipline", "work-rate", defensive solidity also seem to have been on the wane too. So we have the disadvantages and are losing out on the advantages.

I agree with your last sentence - this is the sort of "car crash on repeat" stuff I'm worried about.

[Olé Olé]

Just a quick thought. Trapattoni doesn't tend to pick the best players in the best positions all the time. His logic being that newer (and often better) players don't have time to familiarize themselves with Trap's system. Well, perhaps, if Trap could capably communicate his system to these players and had faith in their ability to adapt to the system then Ireland would be better served. Trap's ability to communicate with players and the media is constantly demonstrated as being insufficient. Why should this be any different on the training ground?

[Stuttgart88]

OwlsFan, I think it would be a distraction to thrash this out much but I think our players (and those available but not being picked) are better than theirs in most but not all positions. Some of the above are marginal calls I agree. But, when has Scotland produced a player like McCarthy or McGeady?

[Bungle]

Just a quick thought. Trapattoni doesn't tend to pick the best players in the best positions all the time. His logic being that newer (and often better) players don't have time to familiarize themselves with Trap's system. Well, perhaps, if Trap could capably communicate his system to these players and had faith in their ability to adapt to the system then Ireland would be better served. Trap's ability to communicate with players and the media is constantly demonstrated as being insufficient. Why should this be any different on the training ground?

Totally agree. Great post.

[jbyrne]

Just a quick thought. Trapattoni doesn't tend to pick the best players in the best positions all the time. His logic being that newer (and often better) players don't have time to familiarize themselves with Trap's system. Well, perhaps, if Trap could capably communicate his system to these players and had faith in their ability to adapt to the system then Ireland would be better served. Trap's ability to communicate with players and the media is constantly demonstrated as being insufficient. Why should this be any different on the training ground?

well he had no problems communicating his system to such an extent that we went through 2 qualifying campaigns with only one loss, beating all those ranked below us along the way, drawing with the current wc champions twice in the 2010 campaign, only losing out in dubious circumstances on WC 2010 qualification and while qualifying for the Euros.

there is no doubt that its Traps "system" that has led to a squad of very ordinary players doing far better than better Irish squads did for the 3 campaigns before he took over. also, i think you'll find that Trap has introduced lots of new players to the squad and team since he arrived. its up to him to decide which players suit him best

[SwanVsDalton]

I wouldn't regard the likes of Russia away as being in any way satisfactory

Seriously? The performance may have been backs-to-the-wall but until there's a major shift in the football power-verse, an away draw against Russia will always be a good result in my book.


Depending on divine intervention (the draw v Russia and getting drawn against Estonia) isn't a reliable approach for the future. I think a change of tactics/selection will bring us more points this time round, and that will only happen under a new manager.

While I agree with your overall point (on adjusting tactics), I think people have to consider that for a country our side to get through qualifying (and tourneys) requires the odd slice of 'divine intervention', whether it's a McKay winner, drawn out of a pot against Romania, squeaking through on goal difference in the US, Iraq in the play-off's or Richard Dunne's backside.

Realistically there's only a handful of sides - the top tier of European football - who can cruise through qualifying on their own ability. Everyone else generally requires the odd result going their way. Of course long term it'd be nice to think we could aspire to be an elite team, but short-term (ie even a couple of decades) it just isn't realistic.

And, really, a team who are more consistent and hard-to-beat than rivals should be lauded to a certain extent, rather than dismissed.


I would certainly play McGregor, Hutton, Adam, Fletcher, Brown at least and probably Caldwell.

Don't want to get into one but Hutton is complete mince. I'd rather call up Gary Doc and push him into RB than have that eejit. Personally would rather our players over McGregor, Adam, Brown and Caldwell. Fletcher would take, if fit.


But, when has Scotland produced a player like McCarthy or McGeady?

Never! Or at least not since they produced McCarthy and McGeady anyway...

[jbyrne]

Depending on divine intervention (the draw v Russia and getting drawn against Estonia)

we got Estonia largely because we did well enough in qualifying to get us into the pot of higher seeds for the play off draw.
Also to point to lucky points against russia as "devine intervention" helping us qualify is to ignore very creditable wins in Armenia and Macedonia and draw in Slovakia where we should have won.

[Bungle]

well he had no problems communicating his system to such an extent that we went through 2 qualifying campaigns with only one loss, beating all those ranked below us along the way, drawing with the current wc champions twice in the 2010 campaign, only losing out in dubious circumstances on WC 2010 qualification and while qualifying for the Euros.

there is no doubt that its Traps "system" that has led to a squad of very ordinary players doing far better than better Irish squads did for the 3 campaigns before he took over. also, i think you'll find that Trap has introduced lots of new players to the squad and team since he arrived. its up to him to decide which players suit him best

I do agree that Trap's results on paper are a positive and I do agree that he has brought alot of positives to the team, especially in the early stages of his reign, such as discipline and structure.

However, I don't believe that he puts out his best available team and I don't feel that he is a guy who is going to place much trust in younger players. Wilson, Coleman and McCarthy should be established internationals by now. In the case of Wilson and McCarthy, they should be well and truely first team players for us. Both are proven and good quality premiership players and who are young enough to become very good players. Both play in positions where we have had noticeable difficulties.

On a personal level, I like Trap. I also would respect that he is one of the greatest coaches of all time. However, his man management right now is very poor. I don't know if this is his poor English and communication skills, or if it is his old age kicking in. The players have far more warmth towards Tardelli than Trap. I can't help but feel that this is a nice retirement gig for Trap and that he isn't going to put himself out, in the way Brian Kerr or Mick would. Players like Brady and Hamann who played with him in the past noted how popular he was with the players (a recurring theme of great managers). I doubt many of our current team would share such sentiments.

A number of our players like Gibson have behaved disgracefully of late. However, I do believe that if they had been handled with more dignity and respect, we would not have ended up with these difficulties.

[ArdeeBhoy]

But, when has Scotland produced a player like McCarthy or McGeady?

They haven't...

[third policeman]

[QUOTE=SwanVsDalton;1627386]Seriously? The performance may have been backs-to-the-wall but until there's a major shift in the football power-verse, an away draw against Russia will always be a good result in my book.


I thought NI performed better against Russia than we did. There is the small detail of the result, but we had better players and vastly more luck. The Trapp philosophy - "play crap football in order to grind out results against poor and mediocre opposition" - only gets us so far, as was made cruelly apparent at the Euros.

Like a lot of people, I find it painful and at times shameful watching Trapp's team. He is continuing to alienate and humiliate too many of our better player (Clark and McLean the latest) and should go now. Would another manager do better is an unverifiable proposition until or unless he goes, but Mick did better than Trapp with a comparable group of players and played football. I simply cannot comprehend the continiung loyalty to a man who presided over the worst ever performance by a Euro finalist.
Trapp's crap!

[SwanVsDalton]

I thought NI performed better against Russia than we did. There is the small detail of the result, but we had better players and vastly more luck. The Trapp philosophy - "play crap football in order to grind out results against poor and mediocre opposition" - only gets us so far, as was made cruelly apparent at the Euros.

Russia were almost asleep the whole match. They're barely broke a pre-sweat whereas they played with far more pace and urgency against us, particularly in the first half.

[Stuttgart88]

Realistically there's only a handful of sides - the top tier of European football - who can cruise through qualifying on their own ability. Everyone else generally requires the odd result going their way. It staggers me how much self-loathing goes on when people go on about how we only qualified because of a lucky draw (Indo). So what? As you say, lesser countries typically only qualify when they get some luck. And as jbyrne says, we earned the luck by getting a good seeding.

I do think that a reasonable expectation with the talent we have available is to become a solid second seed on a regular basis. I think the way to do that is by starting to think like a strong second seed, not an underdog determined to scrape results.

The consistent points hauls from the tricky lower seeds has been commendable (actually, in fairness it's been almost unthinkable given our record) but I genuinely think that by making certain adjustments and by taking the likes of Sweden on, really taking them on, we can crank things up a notch. Unless we trust players a bit more and match teams on a numerical basis more often I think we're more in danger of staying as a third seed, which perpetuates the uphill battle.

[jbyrne]

It staggers me how much self-loathing goes on when people go on about how we only qualified because of a lucky draw (Indo). So what? As you say, lesser countries typically only qualify when they get some luck. And as jbyrne says, we earned the luck by getting a good seeding.


as i posted back in June of the 14 teams who actually qualified for euro 2012 11 qualified for all the last three finals at least and pretty much always do so. add england and denmark to that who only failed to appear in 2008 and that leaves 1 or 2 places each time for the likes of us.

[Pearl Black]

OwlsFan, I think it would be a distraction to thrash this out much but I think our players (and those available but not being picked) are better than theirs in most but not all positions. Some of the above are marginal calls I agree. But, when has Scotland produced a player like McCarthy or McGeady?

Aye and when has NI produced players like James McClean, Darron Gibson, Marc Wilson, Shane Duffy?

[Noelys Guitar]

It will all depend on the money available to pay the wages of the new manager. I would say the chances of a coach being appointed from outside Ireland or the UK is slim to none. Some great coaches available on the European continent but the FAI will probably not be going down that route this time. The FAI will not be appointing a manager who is currently in a job so no point mentioning Hughton, McDermott, MON etc etc. Mick McCarthy and Owen Coyle have options of managing in the Championship. I still feel McCarthy might fancy a return to international management so he has to be near the top of the list along with O'Leary. Curbishley of the English managers available might be interested. Daglish and Roy Keane will be in the running but doubt either will get the job.

[SwanVsDalton]

Don't think its been mentioned here yet but Harry Redknapp was named as a willing runner in the Indo. Thanks but no thanks on that one.

[Murfinator]

The EPL is a declining league becoming increasingly irrelevant on the world stage, I'd weep for our future if our next manager was from that leagues background, but then things look grim regardless looking at our player pool. Very hard to look at the future with any optimism, I think right now we're looking at the dying embers of a successful era of 24 years for Ireland, we're starring into oblivion right now.

[pineapple stu]

Don't think its been mentioned here yet but Harry Redknapp was named as a willing runner in the Indo. Thanks but no thanks on that one.
Why? Stereotypical ignorant-sounding English geeza maybe, but a good manager by and large.

[SwanVsDalton]

Why? Stereotypical ignorant-sounding English geeza maybe, but a good manager by and large.

I don't like his reputation for shady dealings (to put it in a light, non-litigious way). To be upfront, it has nothing to do with his managerial ability - he has a good record. I would just prefer he wasn't in charge of my national team.

Besides best case scenario with Redknapp is he does well but leaves us in the lurch as soon as a decent sized club comes calling. He wouldn't be a long-term solution and I don't think he'd be committed to really bringing on and and encouraging emerging Irish talent.

[pineapple stu]

Fairy nuff I suppose.

[Stuttgart88]

I don't like his reputation for shady dealings (to put it in a light, non-litigious way). To be upfront, it has nothing to do with his managerial ability - he has a good record. I would just prefer he wasn't in charge of my national team.

Besides best case scenario with Redknapp is he does well but leaves us in the lurch as soon as a decent sized club comes calling. He wouldn't be a long-term solution and I don't think he'd be committed to really bringing on and and encouraging emerging Irish talent.He was discussed on R5's 606 show yesterday and the view was that he does nothing on the training pitch, he's more of a dressing room motivator. We need someone with a more holistic approach than that.

I agree with your view above btw. I don't like him so I don't want him.

[BonnieShels]

In an ideal world Jürgen Klopp. sigh.

[tetsujin1979]

I don't like his reputation for shady dealings (to put it in a light, non-litigious way). To be upfront, it has nothing to do with his managerial ability - he has a good record. I would just prefer he wasn't in charge of my national team.

Besides best case scenario with Redknapp is he does well but leaves us in the lurch as soon as a decent sized club comes calling. He wouldn't be a long-term solution and I don't think he'd be committed to really bringing on and and encouraging emerging Irish talent.
agreed, plus I really don't like him.

[BonnieShels]

agreed, plus I really don't like him.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/28390029.jpg

[Charlie Darwin]

I know we did this before with Kerr and it failed badly but we really need to look at Noel King. All of the underage squads are playing good football with a modern formation and he would be able to bring that forward to the senior team.

[Stuttgart88]

I was thinking similarly on at the w/e.

My doubts would be over how the dressing room would take to a guy they don't know well, so choice of deputy would be important. No disrespect to any domestic coaches but my guess is that it'd need an ex-player with leadership quality, perhaps Carsley who has coaching credentials, to make sure the management team has the gravitas required to win the dressing room.

[the bear]

I was thinking similarly on at the w/e.

My doubts would be over how the dressing room would take to a guy they don't know well, so choice of deputy would be important. No disrespect to any domestic coaches but my guess is that it'd need an ex-player with leadership quality, perhaps Carsley who has coaching credentials, to make sure the management team has the gravitas required to win the dressing room.

Carsley has been making all the right noises abut how the game should be played from what i've heard of him in interviews. He did cross my mind when thinking about a successer. Not sure he is such a big name so as to win they dressing room in that way. What is his contract situation with Coventry? Is he still caretaker manager?

I like the idea of promoting an underage manager to the senior team again. Also a cheap option for the rest of the campaign.

I suppose Coyle is the most likely name due to his availablity. Reputations a bit tarnished after the Bolton job but I think he could do a job for us. He would definitley try and play the passing football we are all calling for.

[Lionel Ritchie]

David O'Leary

OR

John Sheridan

OR

Graeme Souness

OR

Alex McLeish

[Charlie Darwin]

I was thinking similarly on at the w/e.

My doubts would be over how the dressing room would take to a guy they don't know well, so choice of deputy would be important. No disrespect to any domestic coaches but my guess is that it'd need an ex-player with leadership quality, perhaps Carsley who has coaching credentials, to make sure the management team has the gravitas required to win the dressing room.
They took to Kerr alright when he took over, albeit he was more well-known and had worked with a number of the players. If he was appointed until the end of the campaign I think the squad would give him a chance.


David O'Leary

OR

John Sheridan

OR

Graeme Souness

OR

Alex McLeish
PAUL JEWELL. I DON'T CARE HOW JUST BRING HIM IN.

[IsMiseSean]

Philippe Troussier anyone??
Currently managing Chinese giants Shenzhen Ruby.

[IsMiseSean]

In an ideal world Jürgen Klopp. sigh.

Speaking of Germans, what about Ralf Rangnick?
Brought Hoffenheim from the lower leagues in Germany to the Bundesliga.

[BonnieShels]

Speaking of Germans, what about Ralf Rangnick?
Brought Hoffenheim from the lower leagues in Germany to the Bundesliga.

Or Felix Magath.

Why did Rangnick leave Schalke?

[seanfhear]

i think Owen Coyle did as good a job as could be expected with the players he had available at Bolton. They had a lot of injuries last season and some of the old stagers had gone past their sell by date.

I would say that in the years that he was with Burnley/Bolton he had one bad season and a bad start to this one. It probably would have been better if he had quit at the end of last season but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

His next job will be a big test and he should be careful that he takes one that gives him a realistic chance of being successful. He should not jump in somewhere that some chairman promises to spend fortunes and then when your in the job the club turns out not to have two-happennies to rub together

Until last season in my opinion Owen Coyle was one of the most promising young managers about. One bad season shouldn't undo all that promise.

[Spudulika]

Slaven Bilic could be getting the boot soon, Emeri too.

Magath is class, but he wouldn't come here as he knows what the 'tards in the meeja will do (remember he's best buddies with Kevin Keegan). We'd be blessed to get anyone with ambition and quality. The usual names are going around and around.

Dave O'Leary - what's he ever done to gain such a high rep? Spend millions his club didn't have? Say the right things and make excuses - oh, and he's matey with media types and was a rebel under Charlton (so he gets the Dunphy vote).

John Sheridan - seriously, John Sheridan? Has anyone ever spent time with him? He was a very good player, but he's not a quality long term solution, or even short term. He's a loose cannon and won't get his own respect let alone the players - best story he told was of him in a darkened doorway with some girl, peed out of his head and being spotted by his manager telling him to go home and sobre up before the next day's game. Too many things for the meeja to kill him for, so they'd love him.

Redknapp - no, no and no again. He wouldn't take it and if he did, we might as well re-draw up the Act Of Union. Bojjox.

Roy Keane - haha, he'd be manna for the meeja, and has done nothing to get a job like this - Stan in disguise.

Graeme Souness - and who else is looking for him? Christ we're desperate, but he's meeja gold, so they'll love him.

Alex McLeish - more of Trap, a good manager, but would he even have the time to do it, and suffer the death threats?

It makes me proud to be Irish to see how many people are willing a loss to get the next sacrifice in office. We'll never get better as we'll never change, the problem is with football structures in Ireland and the flogging of young lads to England as soon as they're out of nappies, but that doesn't sell newspapers.

[hunt4the]

James ''jimmy'' hart (Hulk Hogans Manager) is more qualified to manage us then Roy Keane,
I'd like to see owen coyle, cant see anyone currently with a club going near us!

[Olé Olé]

James ''jimmy'' hart (Hulk Hogans Manager) is more qualified to manage us then Roy Keane,
I'd like to see owen coyle, cant see anyone currently with a club going near us!

Owen Coyle's promotion to the Premier League with Burnley is his biggest achievement to date. Roy Keane's promotion to the Premier League with Sunderland is his biggest achievement. While I think Coyle is a better manager and candidate for the job, ridiculing Keane on one hand and subsequently praising Coyle on the other is not all that balanced a way to look at it.

[tetsujin1979]

Alex McLeish - more of Trap, a good manager, but would he even have the time to do it, and suffer the death threats?

you had me up until this, McLeish shouldn't be allowed near the Ireland job, or any football job for that matter, after the debacle at Villa

[Spudulika]

you had me up until this, McLeish shouldn't be allowed near the Ireland job, or any football job, after the debacle at Villa

Sorry Tets, I should have put a funny face on to show sarcasm - I thought it was obvious (maybe only to me) when I put in about the death threats without specifiying from whom.

[backstothewall]

I would be happy enough for Tardelli to have a shot at it

[Stuttgart88]

Because he'd win back the dressing room that has been lost while he was in a position of authority?

[nigel-harps1954]

Roy Keane. I'll keep on saying it.

[IsMiseSean]

Or Felix Magath.

Why did Rangnick leave Schalke?

Not sure about Magath. Has the reputation of a hard-ass and falls out with a lot of players.
Rangnick left Schalke in Sept 2011 citing health reasons, but has since took up a job as a director of football at Salzburg

[Noelys Guitar]

It depends when they choose to appoint a new manager. If they have someone specifically lined up (I doubt that very much) then that would surely be McCarthy. If they wait then it could be anyone of 30 different names.

[Lionel Ritchie]

David O'Leary

OR

John Sheridan

OR

Graeme Souness

OR

Alex McLeish

I stand over any of these nominations for exactly the reason that no-one else wants them and they'll have to pull up trees in the job before anyone else would.* We're likely going to be shopping for a manager like Neil Warnock shops for players ...whatevers left in the bargain bin when it's been well picked over. Incidently I think they're all reasonably competent individuals who'd do at least as well/poorly as GT for probably a fraction of the cost. I think they'd all research the squad and potential enhancments thereof with due diligence and greater enthusiasm as well.

*When Alex McLeish quit Scotland for Birmingham his salary jumped 1000%. That kind of lure is always going to be there with any half employable manager who does well enough for us (assuming the salary has to go back to pre-Trap levels -which was still quite high by International managment standards) to attract the attention of prem/championship club.

[backstothewall]

Not sure about Magath. Has the reputation of a hard-ass and falls out with a lot of players.
Rangnick left Schalke in Sept 2011 citing health reasons, but has since took up a job as a director of football at Salzburg

Trap has made mistakes in the past year, but i think over the 2 campaigns we have learned that the template of a manager who the players have heard enough about to respect, but aren't overly familiar with has worked well.

Though I do think that we should really be looking for someone who speaks very good English, and there's no point bringing in a Spaniard to try to teach Glenn Whelan and Richard Dunne tica taka. Perhaps someone like Rangnick or Eric Gerets would be good