Player eligibility row

[Predator]

Duffy was on record as saying he was proud to represent NI too.What did he say and when?

[co. down green]

Having said that the current consensus is that the rules as they stand require change to prevent the cannibalisation of member associations and to protect vulnerable association's authority over their own jurisdiction.

What current consensus?

The IFA are trying to play the victim card over the eligibility issue, yet have no qualms about tapping up England u16 & u17 internationals like Norwood & Dudgeon. Where is the consistency when Worthington is approaching players from other associations to change their international team. Did the IFA inform the English FA that they were approaching Manchester United academy players (and others), trying to persuade them to switch to the North? I think not.


First off nats continue to represent our team with no difficulty. You say my opinion is vitriolic. Of course it is, you'd be hard pressed to find an NI fan who isn't incensed by the FAI's arrogant behaviour. Particularly in the wake of Football For All.

I’m still not sure how this football for all idea works. Is it football for all as long as the players and supporters are happy to stand to the English national anthem at all international levels? Is it football for all as long as players and supporters are happy to be represented by the old unionist Stormont flag?

I don’t really see how a football for all campaign can be coordinated by a football president who is a member of an openly sectarian organisation like the Orange Order. I’m sorry, but It’s a bit like Nick Griffin being in charge of the Kick It Out (http://www.kickitout.org/) campaign.

Players will always have their own reasons for choosing their international future, it may be selfish, it may be political, it may be because it’s easier to get a game with a team. whatever the case, players in the North have the choice under FIFA rules and that will remain.

[Lionel Ritchie]

...And the ranting about citizenship is a moot point anyway as FIFA is not a political organisation. It did not sign up to the GFA. FIFA can make up whatever rules it likes. Having said that the current consensus is that the rules as they stand require change to prevent the cannibalisation of member associations and to protect vulnerable association's authority over their own jurisdiction. Hi fhtb ...consensus amongst whom? I acknowledge your frustration and that of many NI supporters but that's the only quarter in which I've seen real consensus that the rules as they stand require change.

I suspect this might just be an uncirclable square because It strikes me that the only solution that'd make a fair chunk of NI support and the IFA happy is one that simply blocks off the option of the ROI for Irish citizens born in the IFA jurisdiction. FIFA don't do local derrogations -which is what'd it take (a specific rule that states Irish citizens born in the jurisdiction of the IFA are inelligible for selection by the FAI). They do one size fits all rules or they'd do nothing else but ajudicate regional squables about who's entitled to pick who. The current situation is probably hard on the IFA -But the solution that'd satisfy the IFA would be hard on the FAI -and would be downright unfair on those lads born in the IFA jurisdiction who are as entitled to play for ROI as I am. If someone has to be disenfranchised -I'd rather it was you lot. That may sound stone cold but I hope my honesty is appreciated. As I say it may be an uncirclable square.

The middle way is a local deal between the two associations -a revised version of the 'Gentlemans Aggreement'. I don't see much appetite for the strict jurisdictional application as it's only the FAI who forego players eligible to represent it in that deal. But there might be something locally negotiable on players having to decide before accepting a call up to the U21s where their future lies. (some say on the players 18th birthday but a player might have to decide before they ever get near the U18 setup in that scenario.) I can't help thinking though this might actually cost NI even more players -as lads who might otherwise have been inclined to stick it out and be "wooed", if you like, by the IFA decide to hedge their bets til later in case they make it onto the FAI radar.

The other option is the status quo. As you say yourself, players from nationalist backgrounds do and will continue to play for NI and best of luck to them.

[fhtb]

What current consensus?The one that allows the FAI to believe they're allowed to pick players who do not meet the standard 3 criteria set out in the FIFA rulebook.


The IFA are trying to play the victim card over the eligibility issue, yet have no qualms about tapping up England u16 & u17 internationals like Norwood & Dudgeon. Because the IFA are the victims. Note they are not pursuing CAS on players like Duffy (although having got to senior squad level it is clear he had a bright future with NI) but those who do not meet the 3 criteria. Norwood, Dudgeon also meet these criteria.

Maik Taylor, before some brightspark mentions him, was brought in under different rules no longer applicable to the Home Nations.


Im still not sure how this football for all idea works. Is it football for all as long as the players and supporters are happy to stand to the English national anthem at all international levels? It's actually a British national anthem but we'd like to see (and the IFA are working on this) a specifically Northern Irish one. Either way FFA is about leaving your politics at the gate. Some people can some can't. We recognise those who can't are divided in two camps - those that can't and seek to carry their politics into the ground and those that can't and won't go near the gate in the first place. The idea is to try to educate and reassure both.



I don't really see how a football for all campaign can be coordinated by a football president who is a member of an openly sectarian organisation like the Orange Order. I've only ever read that on here. Either way as big an eegit as he is I've no reason to believe he's made sectarian decisions in his time at the IFA - if you know any details go ahead an post them or else it's not really a point.


I’m sorry, but It’s a bit like Nick Griffin being in charge of the Kick It Out (http://www.kickitout.org/) campaign.I'm sorry that you feel that way. Football in Northern Ireland is a diverse entity - it reflects all aspects of society here.


whatever the case, players in the North have the that choice under FIFA rules
Yes - we are seeking a change, in much the same way the FAI did 60 years previous, and similarly what happened with the Qatar issue more recently.

[fhtb]

I suspect this might just be an uncirclable square because It strikes me that the only solution that'd make a fair chunk of NI support and the IFA happy is one that simply blocks off the option of the ROI for Irish citizens born in the IFA jurisdiction. FIFA don't do local derrogations -which is what'd it take (a specific rule that states Irish citizens born in the jurisdiction of the IFA are inelligible for selection by the FAI).
Interesting point. I think a generalised rule is necessary, because long term it will affect the Balkan region equally for example. Either FIFA make a determined effort to protect the interests of vulnerable members or they effectively deny their alleged ambivalence to politics.

At present I think FIFA put their hands over their ears and just allowed the most proactive association, in this case the FAI, to get on with it. A galling lack of leadership but given the ridiculous outcry over Henry I don't doubt they just thought if they deny a problem existed the whole thing would go away. The IFA for it's part has slowly put the wheels in motion but to be honest proactive is not a word normally associated with them.

Still, the ball is in play and CAS has given us something. Of course you're right, the FAI could fall back on some form of gentleman's agreement but likely it will not go anywhere near enough for us and I doubt the belligerents in Merrion Sq (?) would budge from their current position of we don't give a **** anyway.

[ArdeeBhoy]

First off nats continue to represent our team with no difficulty. Secondly no player who has been tapped by the Dark Side has said politics was a reason for doing so. As someone here pointed out you only say it's true because you want it to be.

Now about this 'hypocrisy'.

No one is saying you cannot support whoever you like. There are no rules (why should there be?) - it's a free world do what you want.

Playing and supporting are completely separate issues. In the same way the 3 fundamental eligibility criteria and the concept of citizenship are. Citizenship is not a license to do what you want. Irish citizens resident in NI cannot vote in the Republic. Does this mean the Dublin government is also guilty of the discrimination the IFA has been accused of supporting? No, the fact is citizenship is quite a loose term (made looser still in this case by the ignorance of national borders).

And the ranting about citizenship is a moot point anyway as FIFA is not a political organisation. It did not sign up to the GFA. FIFA can make up whatever rules it likes. Having said that the current consensus is that the rules as they stand require change to prevent the cannibalisation of member associations and to protect vulnerable association's authority over their own jurisdiction.

You say my opinion is vitriolic. Of course it is, you'd be hard pressed to find an NI fan who isn't incensed by the FAI's arrogant behaviour. Particularly in the wake of Football For All. Particularly after the FAI themselves complained about the exact same behaviour from the IFA 60 years previous.

From my own personal view, I was educated in NI. I live here. I'm comfortable in the mixed society and recognise football as one of the few things here people have the opportunity to unite around. Small steps and all that. To see that dynamic being single-handedly destroyed by an outside organisation makes me sick to the pit of my stomach.

Hope that provides some insight from this particular Irish citizen.

By the 'Dark Side', presumably you mean 'Ireland'? And you claim to be an "Irish citizen". Hmm.

And as for Nats. 'switching', well the clue is how they define themselves in their sense of Irishness as they've rejected the massively restricted version only available in the North where they're a minority in their own country!

This is the same 'mixed society' which has 100's, if not thousands of foreign flags flying round it every summer, people with an archaic obsession with the the 17th century playing their tunes of triumphalism and a phobia with an representation of real Irishness be it something as bland as the Irish rugby team, being somehow symptomatic of Irish 'republicanism'.

Why would any Irish nationalist want to be tied to such sanctimonious dinosaurs? Try entering the 20th century, let alone the 21st and we might take them more seriously?

[fhtb]

By the 'Dark Side', presumably you mean 'Ireland'? And you claim to be an "Irish citizen". Hmm.

And as for Nats. 'switching', well the clue is how they define themselves in their sense of Irishness as they've rejected the massively restricted version only available in the North where they're a minority in their own country!

This is the same 'mixed society' which has 100's, if not thousands of foreign flags flying round it every summer, people with an archaic obsession with the the 17th century playing their tunes of triumphalism and a phobia with an representation of real Irishness be it something as bland as the Irish rugby team, being somehow symptomatic of Irish 'republicanism'.

Why would any Irish nationalist want to be tied to such sanctimonious dinosaurs? Try entering the 20th century, let alone the 21st and we might take them more seriously?
As I said, if you're not capable of leaving your politics at the gate it is not our responsibility to change to accommodate this. We have a diverse country - those on the extremities on either side will never be happy. We don't pretend to offer anything to either edge of the political spectrum. We have some quite extreme political groupings here and it would be madness to attempt to be all things to all people. At some point, each and every member of the GAWA makes a compromise with their own political beliefs and chooses football over politics.

That's all we ask.

[ifk101]

Yes - we are seeking a change, in much the same way the FAI did 60 years previous, and similarly what happened with the Qatar issue more recently.

No the IFA isn't seeking a change to anything. The IFA want FIFA to uphold the eligibility statutes as the IFA interpret them. The FAI didn't seek to change anything 60 years or so ago either. FIFA intervened because players were togging out for two associations. The FIFA intervention was necessary because (a) the IFA had joined FIFA and (b) the IFA had their own (and incorrect) interpretation of FIFA rules and relegations regarding player eligibility.

[ArdeeBhoy]

That's fair enough.

But to remove politics from sport in any region of conflict is unfortunately naive. The IFA et al want to maintain their 'status quo', Nationalists naturally want more freedom to represent what they feel represents them. That is the 'Green-white-and-gold', as opposed to 'Red-white-and-blue'.
If all the North's fans were all apolitical fair enough, but have only ever met one person ever from there who had no strong feelings about who should govern the North. Even the Alliance Party has more voters FFS.


The unionists' 'mates' in the Brit.establishment created this 'Divide-and-rule' mentality, so maybe break off yer yokes of, er, slavery and blame them! ;)
That's why Irish nationalists are reluctant to accept their satellite presence on the island. That and the small matter of 800 years!!

As said elsewhere, come back in maybe a couple of generations? That's your only hope.

[fhtb]

No the IFA isn't seeking a change to anything. The IFA want FIFA to uphold the eligibility statutes as the IFA interpret them. The FAI didn't seek to change anything 60 years or so ago either. FIFA intervened because players were togging out for two associations. The FIFA intervention was necessary because (a) the IFA had joined FIFA and (b) the IFA had their own (and incorrect) interpretation of FIFA rules and relegations regarding player eligibility.
Regarding wanting the current rules changed I was speaking from a personal pov

Sorry but I'm sure you'll find it was the FAI who had most recently joined FIFA - and in any case it's the effect that is the same - players from one jurisdiction opting for another despite not meeting any of the 3 fundamental criteria. It's these 3 cases which must be protected, not the incorrectly perceived 'right' that political citizenship should grant players a by ball.

[fhtb]

That's fair enough.

But to remove politics from sport in any region of conflict is unfortunately naive. The IFA et al want to maintain their 'status quo', Nationalists naturally want more freedom to represent what they feel represents them. That is the 'Green-white-and-gold', as opposed to 'Red-white-and-blue'.
If all the North's fans were all apolitical fair enough, but have only ever met one person ever from there who had no strong feelings about who should govern the North. Even the Alliance Party has more voters FFS.


The unionists' 'mates' in the Brit.establishment created this 'Divide-and-rule' mentality, so maybe break off yer yokes of, er, slavery and blame them! ;)
That's why Irish nationalists are reluctant to accept their satellite presence on the island. That and the small matter of 800 years!!

As said elsewhere, come back in maybe a couple of generations? That's your only hope.
This post is everything that is wrong with your opinion in my eyes. Leave your politics at the gate, that's all we ask.

Far from being naive, it's the pragmatic, workable thing to do.

[ifk101]

Regarding wanting the current rules changed I was speaking from a personal pov

Sorry but I'm sure you'll find it was the FAI who had most recently joined FIFA - and in any case it's the effect that is the same - players from one jurisdiction opting for another despite not meeting any of the 3 fundamental criteria. It's these 3 cases which must be protected, not the incorrectly perceived 'right' that political citizenship should grant players a by ball.

No, you'll find that it was the IFA that joined FIFA in the 1950s. And I recommend you have a read of the eligibility statutes.

[ArdeeBhoy]

This post is everything that is wrong with your opinion in my eyes. Leave your politics at the gate, that's all we ask.

Far from being naive, it's the pragmatic, workable thing to do.

For a miniscule minority maybe. You need to change collective mindsets before people change their opinions. For some games at Croke, the nos. of Nats.coming to the capital must be close to the nos.going to watch the North. You need to address this idealistic view to them.
Somehow, for reasons stated above, I think you may be too late!
:D

[dantheman]

It's actually a British national anthem but we'd like to see (and the IFA are working on this) a specifically Northern Irish one.


Any details on this? Or yet more hot air.....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[ArdeeBhoy]

How long does it take to implement 'Danny Boy', or even 'The Sash' ?? At least they'd both be unique to the Six Counties.

[DannyInvincible]

First off nats continue to represent our team with no difficulty. Secondly no player who has been tapped by the Dark Side has said politics was a reason for doing so.

...

Playing and supporting are completely separate issues. In the same way the 3 fundamental eligibility criteria and the concept of citizenship are. Citizenship is not a license to do what you want.

...

And the ranting about citizenship is a moot point anyway as FIFA is not a political organisation. It did not sign up to the GFA. FIFA can make up whatever rules it likes.

The matter of nationality is, by its nature, a political reason, is it not? You're correct; citizenship doesn't give you licence to do what you like. No-one is suggesting it does, but it does accord you rights and recognition. And FIFA are a body who recognise citizenship as according you the right to play for your national football team, so I don't see why you view all this "ranting" about citizenship as being irrelevant. Let's dispel that notion once and for all. So what if FIFA didn't sign up to the GFA? It doesn't sign up to any other international agreements between states but it still appears to be generally guided by them as far as its policies and statutes go. Why wouldn't it therefore recognise the unique constitutional status of Northern Ireland? Why don't you recognise it or that it is only reasonable that it should come into play here?

If you want nothing to do with those with "political baggage" and seem keen to mention the idea that it's a free world, then why not leave these individuals with "political baggage" outside "the gate" and get on with who you do wish to accommodate? Those left outside have the choice and freedom to go elsewhere; be happy for them.

What are these "three fundamental eligibility criteria" of which you speak anyway? Aren't these the criteria that apply here?:


Article 15 Principle
1 Any person holding the nationality of a country is eligible to play for
the representative teams of the Association of that country. The
Executive Committee shall decide on the conditions of eligibility
for any Player who has not played international football in accordance
with par. 2 below, and either acquires a new nationality or is
eligible to play for the teams of more than one Association due to
his nationality.
2 With the exception of the conditions specified in par. 3 and 4 below,
any Player who has already represented one Association in a match
(either in full or in part) in an official competition of any category or
any type of football may not play an international match for a representative
team of another Association.
3 If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new
nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several Associations’
teams due to nationality, he may, up to his 21st birthday, request
to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international
matches to the Association of another country of which he
holds nationality, subject to the following conditions:
(a) He has not played a match (either in full or in part) at “A” international
level for his current Association, and if at the time of his
first full or partial appearance in an international match in an
official competition for his current Association, he already had
the nationality of the Association’s team for which he wishes to
play.
(b) He is not permitted to play for his new Association in any competition
in which he has already played for his previous Association.
A player may exercise this right only once.
60
VII. ELIGIBILITY TO PLAY FOR ASSOCIATION TEAMS
4 If a Player who has been fielded by his Association in an international
match in accordance with par. 2 above permanently loses the
nationality of that country without his consent or against his will due
to a decision by a government authority, he may request permission
to play for another Association whose nationality he already has
or has acquired.
5 Any Player who has the right to change Associations in accordance
with par. 3 and 4 above shall submit a written, substantiated request
to the FIFA general secretariat. The Players’ Status Committee shall
decide on the request. The procedure will be in accordance with the
Rules Governing the Procedures of the Players’ Status Committee
and the Dispute Resolution Chamber. Once the player has filed his
request, he is not eligible to play for any Association team until his
request has been processed.

And there is no "current consensus". What on earth are you talking about? If anything, the current consensus is that the rules are fine as they are. Their existence would be under serious threat otherwise. And, as it stands, I believe it's only the IFA who have been making a big deal about them. That's not "current consensus". Maybe on that insular little forum you frequent, but, no, not really anywhere else, I think you'll find.


With all due respect if I was approached by Pele tomorrow I'd find a surprisingly strong personal identification with Brazil.

Professional footballers do what is necessary for their careers, including opting for the perceived best option with regard to international football. The "I've always felt [x nationality] and proud of it" media circus thereafter is mere PR window dressing for the fans. It's also predictable guff that happens to fill copy for the media. Win win. Duffy was on record as saying he was proud to represent NI too. If a reporter asks you a question, you're not going to say "yeah to be honest I'm not really arsed one way or the other" are you?

Don't be so presumptious. What pointless speculation. As far as I'm aware, Duffy said he was happy to represent Northern Ireland, as in content to do so at the time. Pride is something completely different. You've been asked to provide reference for this, which should be easy enough seeing as it's apparently "on record".


Football in Northern Ireland is a diverse entity - it reflects all aspects of society here.

Oh really?

Football for all... on our terms, and you are all ****ing subject to them!


At present I think FIFA put their hands over their ears and just allowed the most proactive association, in this case the FAI, to get on with it.

But you know that's a lie. Wasn't it the IFA who were proactive in raising the issue to FIFA, who then told them, pretty simply, that they were wrong in their interpretation of the rules?

[DannyInvincible]

The one that allows the FAI to believe they're allowed to pick players who do not meet the standard 3 criteria set out in the FIFA rulebook.[sic]

Hold on a minute. That's not what you were initially saying the current consensus was, you snake. Of course, it is the general consensus that the FAI are correct in calling up Irish players born on this island as per FIFA's interpretation of its own rules. You, however, were saying the current consensus was for FIFA to amend its interpretation of its own rules.

[Mr_Parker]

Another reason to snub the IFA?
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/video-nasty-14710603.html#ixzz0hXSzvxm6


The word 'bitter' (and *****) springs to mind.


In fairness, that is one of the worst-written articles I've ever seen. No direct quotes from anybody, and it's not even a logical suggestion that the IFA would do it to spite the FAI.

Agree, it has more to do with the journalist trying to twist things to his agenda rather than the IFA on this occassion. Same journalist has been writing nonsense on the FIFA Articles for years now, despite his errors being pointed out to him, he continues to do so.

[seanfhear]

Whats the Orange Orders view on this issue. They seem to control the Unionist political parties so it would not surprise me if they also control the IFA.

Posters on "OWC" website constantly referring to the fellow Irishmen/Nationalists of their prospective Nationalist players as the "Beggars" is not exactly going to encourage players from a nationalist background that they are wanted to represent NI.

Are their any moderators on that site savvy enough to put a stop to such name calling. If I were a talented player from a nationlist background I would get the impression that these posters that call my fellow Nationalists "Beggars" were not genuine about wanting me in their team.

[DannyInvincible]

Whats the Orange Orders view on this issue. They seem to control the Unionist political parties so it would not surprise me if they also control the IFA.

I believe the IFA pledge allegiance to God, Queen and Country, first and foremost, and then comes the Orange Order...

:rolleyes:

[DannyInvincible]

Just like how the FAI is governed from Rome.

[seanfhear]

Just like how the FAI is governed from Rome.
Most of us are well and truly fed up with priests and bishops. They are keeping their heads down and are not so quick to pontificate now (about time too)

Orange men in NI continue to strut their stuff though. Is their any organisation up their that they do not pull the strings of. How many Orange men at the top of the IFA.

[DannyInvincible]

Most of us are well and truly fed up with priests and bishops. They are keeping their heads down and are not so quick to pontificate now (about time too)

Orange men in NI continue to strut their stuff though. Is their any organisation up their that they do not pull the strings of. How many Orange men at the top of the IFA.

I was being facetious with my reference to Rome. Just surrealist sarcasm. Of course FAI policy has nothing to do with the Catholic Church.

As for the IFA, well, I dunno. I just don't think we have to resort to conspiracy theories and unverifiable accusations here. I, personally, find it somewhat embarrassing. It's not like the IFA exercise a "no Catholics" policy or something. What would make you think they're an Orangeist organisation? It's just such a bizarre accusation. I'm not saying sectarianism and community division don't exist any longer in Northern Ireland, but "strutting their stuff" and "pulling the strings"?... There are checks and balances in place to at least keep an eye on such carry-on nowadays. Maybe I'm being naive but I really don't think the IFA would get away with introducing Orangeism into its manifesto. Any explicit show of influence would be roundly condemned, and by those even within the Northern Irish footballing fraternity - whether from the nationalist community or the unionist community - no doubt.

I don't know why I'm even entertaining the notion with a response.

[geysir]

Playing and supporting are completely separate issues
In the same way the 3 fundamental eligibility criteria and the concept of citizenship are.
No matter what way I read that, it makes no sense.

Citizenship is not a license to do what you want. Irish citizens resident in NI cannot vote in the Republic. Does this mean the Dublin government is also guilty of the discrimination the IFA has been accused of supporting?
Is there a point or argument anywhere? No member of the Irish football team can vote in an Irish election but an EU national can, if resident in ireland. Voting eligibility is primarily a residence thing, not citizenship dependent.
What has that eligibility or non eligibility to vote got to do with anything?

No, the fact is citizenship is quite a loose term (made looser still in this case by the ignorance of national borders
That fact you refer to, is actually an irrational opinion. fact! :)
Irish citizenship is not a loose thing, it is a clearly defined state and the main eligibility criteria - for automatic citizenship - has been democratically and constitutionally accepted by the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland and also drafted into the irish constitution. Citizenship is used by FIFA to determine eligibility. Here there are 2 clearly defined Citizenships, one is automatic the other is acquired.
An automatic citizenship not dependant on residence or blood, automatic citizenship demonstrates enough of a connection to an Association by FIFA to be automatically eligible for that national team.
Acquired citizenship needs blood or residence ties.


To see that dynamic being single-handedly destroyed by an outside organisation makes me sick to the pit of my stomach.

Your pit of the stomach ailments are probably more due to suppression of angry emotions. Life was simpler when we were kids, we just played football and let it all out.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Whats the Orange Orders view on this issue. They seem to control the Unionist political parties so it would not surprise me if they also control the IFA.

Posters on "OWC" website constantly referring to the fellow Irishmen/Nationalists of their prospective Nationalist players as the "Beggars" is not exactly going to encourage players from a nationalist background that they are wanted to represent NI.

Are their any moderators on that site savvy enough to put a stop to such name calling. If I were a talented player from a nationlist background I would get the impression that these posters that call my fellow Nationalists "Beggars" were not genuine about wanting me in their team.

Not sure how much remit the OO has within the DUP, though there is a cross-over betweeen their constituency and TUV, but even the most ardent nationalist would query their major influence within the machinations of the IFA.
Except that their current president Raymond Kennedy is an enthusiastic member and supporter of the OO, so I suppose we have the requisite criteria for our own 'paranoia', but he strikes as even more of a buffoon than even the Delaneys of this world, but am welcome to be told different.

As for the label of 'Beggars', this just goes to highlight their own insecurity and rank hypocrisy;Don't forget their colonial theme park has been the net recipient of billions, er, 'Begged' from the Brit. Exchequer, since partition.

And for what? So the natives could be suppressed until recently, but now just to allow a bunch of paranoid fools the right to continue a pointless occupation under the pretext they are the majority, albeit a wholly gerrymandered one....

The label is obviously apt to them, as it allows them to reinforce their traditional triumphalist attitude of 'superiority' to the natives, which is laughable in the main.



Life was simpler when we were kids, we just played football and let it all out.
It would have been simpler still if we hadn't been invaded by our greedy and aggressive neighbours!

[Mr_Parker]

Except that their current president Raymond Kennedy is an enthusiastic member and supporter of the OO, so I suppose we have the requisite criteria for our own 'paranoia', but he strikes as even more of a buffoon than even the Delaneys of this world, but am welcome to be told different.

I wouldn't put to much stall in his OO membership....afterall he said he would welcome Catholics joining the OO.....seriously I kid you not.....maybe that answers your other question.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l44/Mr_Parker2006/scan0205.jpg

[DannyInvincible]

I'm just realising that the statutes I was referring to earlier are outdated and that I should be referring to this document (http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/federation/01/24/fifastatuten2009_e.pdf), which appears to be the latest update to FIFA's statutes available.


VII. ELIGIBILITY TO PLAY FOR REPRESENTATIVE TEAMS

15 Principle
1. Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on
residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of
the Association of that country.
2. With the exception of the conditions specifi ed in article 18 below, any Player
who has already participated in a match (either in full or in part) in an offi cial
competition of any category or any type of football for one Association may not
play an international match for a representative team of another Association.

16 Nationality entitling players to represent
more than one Association
1. A Player who, under the terms of art. 15, is eligible to represent more than
one Association on account of his nationality, may play in an international
match for one of these Associations only if, in addition to having the relevant
nationality, he fulfi ls at least one of the following conditions:
(a) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of
the relevant Association;
(c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the
relevant Association;
(d) He has lived continuously on the territory of the relevant Association
for at least two years.

I now see the three (or four, even) criteria to which you were presumably referring in Article 16, fhtb. Apologies. I'll come back and deal with these in more depth when I have time. It could be a day or two, but for now with just a quick reading, I don't see how they necessarily need apply in the case of northern-borns whose Irish nationality allows for them to represent only one association. Unless Irish nationality also allows you to represent Northern Ireland... But it doesn't strictly, because an Irish national born in Dublin cannot represent Northern Ireland, or technically shouldn't be able to anyway unless FIFA have dictated some bizarre rule allowing it as a compromise. I have heard mention of that, but I don't really know if it's the case or not at all. Maybe someone could confirm it...

Out of interest, and possibly semi-related, does anyone know whether the minority of German-speakers (recognised as ethnically German, I suppose you could say) in Polish Upper Silesia are eligible for dual German-Polish citizenship or even just one of either? It's a situation with some parallels to here. I've been trying to look into it but can't really find anything conclusive or solid regarding the current state of affairs there. I do know Miroslav Klose and Lukas Podolski, for example, originated there, but then I believe they also had ancestry/parentage who had actually been originally from Germany and then both moved to Germany at a young age, if I'm not mistaken, so would have been eligible for German nationality anyway besides their status as members of the recognised "German minority" in Upper Silesia.

I'll try and come back to this again when I get an opportunity.

[dantheman]

Oh really?

Football for all... on our terms, and you are all ****ing subject to them!

Lol. Bit like the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

"We're all inclusive like, because we all tell each other that. And if you disagree you can FAI Off, you beggars!"


How long does it take to implement 'Danny Boy', or even 'The Sash' ?? At least they'd both be unique to the Six Counties.

Hi quick question for any of:

Ealing Green
Not Brazil
Gather Round
FHTB (I'm from Donegal and I hate myself!)

or any other of the OWC fans (greatest in the world - they have an award like!)

You see, these posters all seem to favour a change in the anthem used at NI matches.
Which is a very nice sentiment to have indeed. Very nice. Nice words.

With that in mind, I was wondering whether they elaborate with any of the plans the IFA have in relation to the changing of this anthem?? Who they have talked with about it? What options are on the table etc.

I can't find anything on the IFA website, but I did read a few years back that they had commissioned a report, which recommended the changing of the anthem from GSTQ to something more 'neutral'. This appears to have fallen down the back of the settee somewhere there in the IFA headquarters.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-139707897.html (Well said Iris! :cool:)


Otherwise the nice sentiment above, could be interpreted, as a load of hot air!


If you could come back with some sort of feedback on this, I'd appreciate it. You have repeatedly dodged this question.


Best regards,
Northern Nationalism (FFA-sceptic)

[Mr_Parker]

Lol. Bit like the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

"We're all inclusive like, because we all tell each other that. And if you disagree you can FAI Off, you beggars!"



Hi quick question for any of:

Ealing Green
Not Brazil
Gather Round
FHTB (I'm from Donegal and I hate myself!)

or any other of the OWC fans (greatest in the world - they have an award like!)

You see, these posters all seem to favour a change in the anthem used at NI matches.
Which is a very nice sentiment to have indeed. Very nice. Nice words.

With that in mind, I was wondering whether they elaborate with any of the plans the IFA have in relation to the changing of this anthem?? Who they have talked with about it? What options are on the table etc.

I can't find anything on the IFA website, but I did read a few years back that they had commissioned a report, which recommended the changing of the anthem from GSTQ to something more 'neutral'. This appears to have fallen down the back of the settee somewhere there in the IFA headquarters.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-139707897.html (Well said Iris! :cool:)


Otherwise the nice sentiment above, could be interpreted, as a load of hot air!


If you could come back with some sort of feedback on this, I'd appreciate it. You have repeatedly dodged this question.


Best regards,
Northern Nationalism (FFA-sceptic)
Full document here

http://www.robinwilson.eu/attachments/Football%20For%20All%20doc.pdf

Oh and while you're asking them, ask them about the flag the IFA cling too as well. ;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ealing Green
Not Brazil
Gather Round
FHTB (I'm from Donegal and I hate myself!)

You see, these posters all seem to favour a change in the anthem used at NI matches.
Which is a very nice sentiment to have indeed. Very nice. Nice words.

With that in mind, I was wondering whether they elaborate with any of the plans the IFA have in relation to the changing of this anthem?? Who they have talked with about it? What options are on the table etc.

I can't find anything on the IFA website, but I did read a few years back that they had commissioned a report, which recommended the changing of the anthem from GSTQ to something more 'neutral'. This appears to have fallen down the back of the settee somewhere there in the IFA headquarters.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-139707897.html (Well said Iris! :cool:)

If you could come back with some sort of feedback on this, I'd appreciate it. You have repeatedly dodged this question.

Best regards,
Northern Nationalism (FFA-sceptic)

Dated currently by a month or so, but what about in the short-term, "Here's to you, Mrs.Robinson"?

Gives the First, er, (DUP) Minister's spouse a mention and certainly not offensive to Nationalists....

They also need to get rid of the b*stardised Red Hand flag. What's wrong with the traditional yellow, or did they really want to mimic the English that much ??

[Mr_Parker]

Dated currently by a month or so, but what about in the short-term, "Here's to you, Mrs.Robinson"?

Gives the First, er, (DUP) Minister's spouse a mention and certainly not offensive to Nationalists....

They also need to get rid of the b*stardised Red Hand flag. What's wrong with the traditional yellow, or did they really want to mimic the English that much ??

The 'yellow' flag does not represent NI. It is a '9 county' Ulster Flag.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The 'yellow' flag does not represent NI. It is a '9 county' Ulster Flag.

Aye, I do know. Was being ironic....

[seanfhear]

Would'nt it be a good idea if the IFA divested itself of Orangemen at the higher echelons if it were truly extending the welcoming hand to players from a Nationalist backround.

They should get their own house in order before they start thrashing about looking for others to blame.

[SilkCut]

Would'nt it be a good idea if the IFA divested itself of Orangemen at the higher echelons if it were truly extending the welcoming hand to players from a Nationalist backround.

They should get their own house in order before they start thrashing about looking for others to blame.

It would be a good idea but they shouldn't have to, it's part of their culture. If they don't want to change anything they do though they will have to accept that any player born in NI can represent either the ROI or NI and will likely represent the country they have most affinity with. I don't know why we need to go into qualification requirements so deeply on this thread (interesting though they are) as the simple fact is, if you are born in NI you are entitled to Irish citizenship and can therefore play for either country and as such we can recruit if we feel like it.

[dantheman]

Got a feeling that we're not going to get an answer from the OWC brigade.

Agree with the post above, let them have GSTQ, UJ & Orangemen running the show, just accept that the likes of Duffy, Gibson etc are going to throw their lot in with the Republic.
Its the way to go IMHO.

We can have one uber-British team based in the 5-shed stadium, and in the 5-star Aviva another one for the decent people on this island...:D;)

[geysir]

Compared to what they were, Orangemen these days are a fading social and political irrelevance, more of an anthropologist's curiosity.
It's peculiar the issues the OWC get all hot and bothered about, rip roaring mad about how they are depicted in that Night (19 years ago!) in November comedy play, they can fly into a fury and get organised about the Maze stadium, go on ranting and raving about their players being kidnapped but hardly a whimper about that GSTQ. They love belting out that anthem before games. GSTQ as the anthem, isn't an issue they feel slightly indignant about, bar a few half hearted polite discussions. Not that I actually think dropping it would make any real difference at this stage. The NI team ( even with nationalist players) is the team for the vastly predominant Unionist identity, with a veneer of an aspiration to be a team that represents all NI people.

[dantheman]

Compared to what they were, Orangemen these days are a fading social and political irrelevance, more of an anthropologist's curiosity.
It's peculiar the issues the OWC get all hot and bothered about, rip roaring mad about how they are depicted in that Night (19 years ago!) in November comedy play, they can fly into a fury and get organised about the Maze stadium, go on ranting and raving about their players being kidnapped but hardly a whimper about that GSTQ. They love belting out that anthem before games. GSTQ as the anthem, isn't an issue they feel slightly indignant about, bar a few half hearted polite discussions. Not that I actually think dropping it would make any real difference at this stage. The NI team ( even with nationalist players) is the team for the vastly predominant Unionist identity, with a veneer of an aspiration to be a team that represents all NI people.

That's about right! ;)

McGinn & McCourt should meet up with Chester Williams.

NI has catholic players you know. There's one or two of them "about the place"....

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j279/Harbour_Rat/IMG_0680.jpg

[Nedser]

16 Nationality entitling players to represent
more than one Association
1. A Player who, under the terms of art. 15, is eligible to represent more than one Association on account of his nationality, may play in an international match for one of these Associations only if, in addition to having the relevant nationality, he fulfils at least one of the following conditions:
(a) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(d) He has lived continuously on the territory of the relevant Association for at least two years.


I now see the three (or four, even) criteria to which you were presumably referring in Article 16, fhtb. Apologies. I'll come back and deal with these in more depth when I have time. It could be a day or two, but for now with just a quick reading, I don't see how they necessarily need apply in the case of northern-borns whose Irish nationality allows for them to represent only one association. Unless Irish nationality also allows you to represent Northern Ireland... But it doesn't strictly, because an Irish national born in Dublin cannot represent Northern Ireland, or technically shouldn't be able to anyway unless FIFA have dictated some bizarre rule allowing it as a compromise. I have heard mention of that, but I don't really know if it's the case or not at all. Maybe someone could confirm it...


This is actually very interesting as there are 2 ways that I can see of interpreting Article 16:

1. It means that if nationality of one country (i.e. UK) entitles you to represent more than one association (i.e. NI, Scotland, Wales or England), then in addition to holding UK nationality, you also have to satisfy one of the conditions in Article 16. I think this is what it means - i.e. it's just to ensure that people with UK nationality aren't automatically entitled to play for 4 different national teams (a la Maik Taylor).

2. It could also be interpreted to mean that if a player has more than one nationality, then he must meet one of the criteria in Article 16 in addition to holding that nationality. In other words, if a player was born in Belfast and holds both Irish and British nationality, then he would only be eligible for ROI if he meets criteria b, c or d in Article 16. I think this is what the IFA are arguing. The sad thing is, they might have a case, as the wording above is not 100% clear.

If the IFA successfully argue that interpretation 2 is correct, then it gets more interesting, as it would mean players born in the North would generally not be eligible for ROI if they hold both British and Irish nationality, but they would be eligible for ROI if they hold Irish nationality only. Geysir insists that everyone born in NI is automatically both British and Irish, whereas others, including myself and Mr Parker, believe they have the right to choose, as that's what the GFA states.

[Charlie Darwin]

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j279/Harbour_Rat/IMG_0680.jpg
hahaha that is pretty good though

[ArdeeBhoy]

H*nry a Prod? Somehow I doubt it. And even if he was, why would he want to join that paranoid rabble??


Geysir insists that everyone born in NI is automatically both British and Irish, whereas others, including myself and Mr Parker, believe they have the right to choose, as that's what the GFA states.

The former is now, bizarrely, how an ever increasing number of unionists now 'claim' to see themselves, after centuries denying they were anything but....

Hmm. There's a very strange stench about the place because of that.

[geysir]

Geysir insists that everyone born in NI is automatically both British and Irish, whereas others, including myself and Mr Parker, believe they have the right to choose, as that's what the GFA states.
But you have to appreciate the following.
You have a right to choose Irish or British or both, but when a player choses (is chosen) to represent the IFA, he is doing so as a British national. He is exercising his right to be identified as a British national.
The IFA is a British Association, only a British national can play for them.

[Deckydee]

Dear oh dear this is complicated!

[ArdeeBhoy]

You have a right to choose Irish or British or both, but when a player choses (is chosen) to represent the IFA, he is doing so as a British national. He is exercising his right to be identified as a British national.
The IFA is a British Association, only a British national can play for them.

If they want to be a Brit, their choice I suppose. Besides the unfortunate political implication of that forced majority, they should be grateful FIFA though aren't insisting on a an all-British team.

[Nedser]

But you have to appreciate the following.
You have a right to choose Irish or British or both, but when a player choses (is chosen) to represent the IFA, he is doing so as a British national. He is exercising his right to be identified as a British national.
The IFA is a British Association, only a British national can play for them.

I accept that a player has to have British nationality to play for NI, based on the revised article 15. Interestingly though, that means the IFA and/or FIFA would have every right to insist that they hold UK passports. I can't see what the argument against that could possibly be now, given that by definition a player is claiming British nationality when they play for NI.

However, that's not really relevant to my latest post, which is concerned with whether NI-born players are eligible for ROI under the revised Article 16. As I said, if the IFA succeed in arguing that NI-born players who hold dual nationality would have to meet one the criteria in Article 16 to be elgible for ROI, then the question of whether NI-born people are automatically both British and Irish becomes crucial.

Interestingly, you appear to have changed your view about whether NI-born can choose to have either British or Irish nationality or both. When I previously said they could, you responded with some pretty definitive contradictions of what I said, e.g.:


An Irish national born in the North is automatically a British national even if he/she never obtains a UK passport, even if he she only aspires to be an Irish citizen.
NI born are automatic dual citizens.


The GFA is not and never has been any replacement for the Irish and British nationality laws. It is the lengthy and detailed Irish and British nationality laws which determine the citizenship rights/requirements of people born in NI, not the GFA. The only change that the GFA brought into effect in this regard (citizenship), was the change to the Irish citizenship law which said that now (most) all people born on the Island are automatically Irish citizens from birth.
Do you understand that?

Next task, read this slowly from my previous post as it came to me from Moses.
"Irish nationality only qualifies you for the FAI. An Irish national born in the North is automatically a British national even if he/she never obtains a UK passport, even if he/she only aspires to be an Irish citizen. NI born are automatic dual citizens. Only the automatic British nationality qualifies a NI born to be eligible to play for NI."

If you've changed your mind on that I'd be interested to know why.

The reason I ask is, if the IFA succeed in arguing that Article 16 applies to any dual citizens, and you were correct in your original statements about NI born people automatically holding dual citizenship, then in general NI-born players would not be eligible for ROI.

One way or the other, I don't think this case is as open and shut as some were making out.

[geysir]

I accept that a player has to have British nationality to play for NI, based on the revised article 15.
Yes and also based on the older FIFA article 15 of eligibility a player had to have British nationality to play for NI.


Interestingly though, that means the IFA and/or FIFA would have every right to insist that they hold UK passports. I can't see what the argument against that could possibly be now, given that by definition a player is claiming British nationality when they play for NI.
FIFA make up the rules so FIFA have the right to insist that NI players carry a UK passport. They tried that and later amended their position to accept the Irish passport as evidence of identity. You do realise that a UK passport is no evidence of eligibility to play for NI. Neither Irish nor UK passport is evidence of eligibility to play for NI. The passport required by the match official is for evidence of identity not eligibility.


However, that's not really relevant to my latest post, which is concerned with whether NI-born players are eligible for ROI under the revised Article 16. As I said, if the IFA succeed in arguing that NI-born players who hold dual nationality would have to meet one the criteria in Article 16 to be elgible for ROI, then the question of whether NI-born people are automatically both British and Irish becomes crucial.
There is no Northern Irish Nationality which entitles a player to be eligible for 2 Associations. Article 16 refers only to a players nationality allowing him to be eligible for >1 Association. It does not refer to a dual nationality making a player eligible for > 1 Association. The Nationality that applies to Art 16 is British nationality. Under article 15 a British citizen would be eligible for 4 Association, Article 16 defines the eligibility for British natinality in regards to each of the 4 Associations. Irish nationality does not make a player eligible for a British Association. NI is British. The status of NI in the UK has not changed.


Interestingly, you appear to have changed your view about whether NI-born can choose to have either British or Irish nationality or both. When I previously said they could, you responded with some pretty definitive contradictions of what I said, e.g.

No I have not changed. NI born have an automatic right to Brit or Irish citizenship or both. They still have to do an action in order to exercise that right to be identified as an Irish national (eg ask to be chosen for the FAI), but post GFA they do not have to acquire the citizenship before or while exercising their right to be identified fully as a natural born Irish national (eg application for passport).




The reason I ask is, if the IFA succeed in arguing that Article 16 applies to any dual citizens, and you were correct in your original statements about NI born people automatically holding dual citizenship, then in general NI-born players would not be eligible for ROI.

One way or the other, I don't think this case is as open and shut as some were making out.

You would be confused if you do not understand article 16 when it states clearly
"A Player who, under the terms of art. 15, is eligible to represent more than one Association on account of his nationality"

It states nationality, singular, not (dual) nationalities plural. There is no Northern Ireland singular nationality.

[dantheman]

I'll give credit where credit's use to Danny Kennedy et al, but this is the true face of football in the North.
Prepare for more Duffy's & Gibsons, Delaney must be laughing. Come to Daddy:

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Red-card-for-39new-football.6141422.jp

[ArdeeBhoy]

With regards to the North, have family born there. As far as we're all led to believe, it's an issue of choice as to whether they take a Brit.or Irish passport. Unsure if they can have both, but am sure at least one 'side' insists on revoking citizenship of the other, if not both.

Maybe someone can clarify? Also been told the only way you can have joint Irish-Brit.citizenship/passport rights is by marriage? Though don't know what happens in the case of divorce. Or the North!

[ArdeeBhoy]

I'll give credit where credit's use to Danny Kennedy et al, but this is the true face of football in the North.
Prepare for more Duffy's & Gibsons, Delaney must be laughing. Come to Daddy:

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Red-card-for-39new-football.6141422.jp

It just goes to show what the North's fans are up against. Even their most bigoted fans are liberals compared to some of their politicos. And that's just the DUP!
;)

[Drumcondra 69er]

Prepare for more Duffy's & Gibsons, Delaney must be laughing. Come to Daddy:

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Red-card-for-39new-football.6141422.jp

Or should that be 'Come to Paddy'? :D

[Predator]

I'll give credit where credit's use to Danny Kennedy et al, but this is the true face of football in the North.
Prepare for more Duffy's & Gibsons, Delaney must be laughing. Come to Daddy:

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Red-card-for-39new-football.6141422.jp
Ian Paisley Jnr epitomises (what seems to be wilfull) ignorance


"The national anthem should not be seen as offensive, it is the neutral anthem of the nation and it is something that I don't think we should ever concede."Neutral?!

Mr Paisley called for 'unionist unity' to oppose any such move.

Traditional Unionist Voice leader Jim Allister slammed the IFA and accused it of making football political.

"Attempting to remove the national anthem is bringing politics into football," he said.No no no Jimmy boy. Removing a so called 'national anthem' (where a portion include their own lyrics 'no surrender' and leads some players to bow their heads in shame) in favour of a shared sporting anthem is more akin to removing politics from football!

It is foolhardy of the IFA to go down that path.

"The national anthem is the national anthem and this is the national team.

"It is right and proper that it would be played at matches."The scramble in opposition to this proposal from the unionist parties has already made it a political issue for them. I wonder can Jimmy boy tell me what anthem Wales and Scotland use before their sporting events? It's certainly not the 'national anthem'.

The flat out refusal to compromise is telling. Talking about concessions to nationalists and whatnot... it's hardly surprising really. They'll reap the rewards of refusing to change the image of their team.