Player eligibility row

[irishfan86]

Funnily enough I was talking to someone earlier about the Arteta thing and he mentioned to me that Hargreaves doesn't actually qualify as home grown under the new premier league rules. Funny stuff.

[macdermesser]

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid29318049001?bctid=592799131001

I wonder what Matt Holland and Andy Townsend think of Roy's sentiments?

(I would like to have heard a bit more of the Owen Coyle interview - from the clip it sounds as if he was an opportunist who decided to play for us - actually come to think of it .. Steve Bruce qualified to play for us too .. Irish interest in all three managers interviewed)

[Colbert Report]

test test

[Colbert Report]

Funnily enough I was talking to someone earlier about the Arteta thing and he mentioned to me that Hargreaves doesn't actually qualify as home grown under the new premier league rules. Funny stuff.

Well, why would he? He was born and raised in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. At fifteen he moved to Germany where he lived and worked up until his transfer to Manchester United a few years ago.

[irishfan86]

I guess it just strikes me as funny that some English seem appalled that Arteta could play for England when he's been living there for five years, has an English wife, etc...whereas Hargreaves has only been there three years or so. Sure there's more to nationality than time spent in a country, I just find it interesting that Hargreaves was never difficult for them to swallow, but Arteta is.

Goes back to the search for pure blood I guess, haha.

[SkStu]

Having been raised in Canada, I'd say the majority of people here have multiple allegiances, and this has never seemed odd to me, given that it's the environment I've grown up in.


having moved to Canada, it was one of the first things that struck me as really odd. I have no idea why. Perhaps it is because nationality is, by its nature, more easily defined in Ireland and therefore more important to an Irish person that being "Canadian" is to a Canuck. Even direct immigrants who have been here for as little as 5 years (some Croats and Macedonians) say they are canadian now as Canada has welcomed them and given them so much opportunity. Even though i understand where theyre coming from, I still cant wrap my head around that...

[paul_oshea]

You associate with Macs?

[SkStu]

i try to avoid it but sometimes i cant!

[bwagner]

Lads im ot one for stirring poo but How the heck is Mc Court not able to get into the North's squad when a schoolkid (gorman) can make it, not to mention Corey Evans.

Northern Ireland squad: Taylor (Birmingham), Tuffey (Inverness Caledonian Thistle), Blayney (Linfield), J Evans (Man Utd), Craigan (Motherwell), Cathcart (Blackpool), McAuley (Ipswich), Hughes (Fulham), Baird (Fulham), McCann (Peterborough), Brunt (West Brom), Gorman (Wolves), C Evans (Man Utd), Davis (Rangers), Clingan (Coventry), Healy (Sunderland), Feeney (Oldham), Lafferty (Rangers), Paterson (Burnley), Patterson (Plymouth).

[DannyInvincible]

having moved to Canada, it was one of the first things that struck me as really odd. I have no idea why. Perhaps it is because nationality is, by its nature, more easily defined in Ireland and therefore more important to an Irish person that being "Canadian" is to a Canuck. Even direct immigrants who have been here for as little as 5 years (some Croats and Macedonians) say they are canadian now as Canada has welcomed them and given them so much opportunity. Even though i understand where theyre coming from, I still cant wrap my head around that...

It probably has something to do with how the concept is viewed in what you might call the "New World" (Canada and the US). With those societies being founded and built as one upon or within a melting pot of all sorts of ethnicities, their perspective on nationality is very much civic in outlook - everyone is more than welcome welcome to consider themselves Canadian or American if they've contributed in some way - whereas I think many in Europe, where there might be less homogenisation of cultures and ethnicities within certain states or societies, relatively-speaking, still view nationality on somewhat ethnic lines. For example, for some, the idea of being Irish and being a Catholic Gael or whatever are one and the same and anything other than that is viewed as being somehow "less Irish" or "not authentic Irish". I think that way of looking at nationality is adapting to the modern world, however, which is why you get groups like the BNP in Britain protesting about the erosion of the "indigenous Briton's way of life".

[DannyInvincible]

Lads im ot one for stirring poo but How the heck is Mc Court not able to get into the North's squad when a schoolkid (gorman) can make it, not to mention Corey Evans.

Northern Ireland squad: Taylor (Birmingham), Tuffey (Inverness Caledonian Thistle), Blayney (Linfield), J Evans (Man Utd), Craigan (Motherwell), Cathcart (Blackpool), McAuley (Ipswich), Hughes (Fulham), Baird (Fulham), McCann (Peterborough), Brunt (West Brom), Gorman (Wolves), C Evans (Man Utd), Davis (Rangers), Clingan (Coventry), Healy (Sunderland), Feeney (Oldham), Lafferty (Rangers), Paterson (Burnley), Patterson (Plymouth).

Didn't he injure himself again whilst celebrating his last wonder goal? Or maybe he's returned to action since, I don't know. 'Tis a strange one alright if he's fit seeing as it was only a fortnight ago, I think, Worthington was assuring McCourt that the international door was still open for him. Why he might have thought it had been shut on him, I'm not sure either.

[bwagner]

He came on on Saturday so he is not injured.... I just thing its a bit strange. Gorman has never played 1st football.

[DannyInvincible]

Not that I'm disagreeing with you that he's probably deserving of a call-up for them, but here's Worthington's take on it: http://breakingnews.ie/sport/mccourt-in-worthingtons-plans-469412.html#ixzz0xYYPNMVm


Worthington said that McCourt simply has to keep fit and keep playing and he will be in contention for the upcoming Euro 2012 qualifier away to Slovenia next month.

“The door is still open for Paddy,” he said.

“He was injured a lot over the last year with different bumps and things and that got in the way.

“We all know the quality he possesses but I’ve told Paddy that he has to work hard when he plays, as do all the players in the team, and he knows that.

“But if he gets a regular spot at Celtic then he will be in my plans.

“I brought the youngsters in to give them some experience, to give them a chance but the door is still open for everyone.

“At the moment it’s too early to talk about my squad for the Slovenia game but I will be looking at the situation over the coming weeks.”

McCourt getting regular first-team football seems to be Worthington's priority. Worthington ignored McCourt whilst he was at Derry for some reason and gave the excuse that he was not playing at a high-enough standard. This was despite the fact he was calling Irish League players into his squads at the same time, if memory serves me correctly. Not suggesting there's some grudge there, but it did seem a bit odd at the time considering McCourt's performances and blatant ability then, as does leaving him out now for a vital Euro qualifier in favour of including inexperienced schoolboys and the like.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Perhaps he just assumes, wrongly, that McCourt is looking to jump ship.
More's the pity that he didn't do so years ago, but good luck to him.

[ArdeeBhoy]

It's an interesting debate, and perhaps there is an element of old world vs. new world going on.

Lawro says "the big difference is the blood line."

Not calling Lawro a racist, but it's very funny to hear someone referring to blood as a defining factor in identity and nationality. I have little doubt that Arteta considers himself Spanish, but there are people in the world who move to another country and adopt it as their home.

Should those people not be allowed to choose their new country as their home, and if talented enough, represent their adopted home?

Having been raised in Canada, I'd say the majority of people here have multiple allegiances, and this has never seemed odd to me, given that it's the environment I've grown up in.

The world is changing and to try and continue to define a sense of nationality by bloodline seems archaic.

The point I'm trying to make is that nationality is a very complex thing and within reason individuals should be able to choose the nation they wish to represent, assuming there is a legitimate connection, and contrary to what a good chunk of people think, I think residency is a legitimate way to qualify.
Know what you mean, but surely if you support Ireland, you're then contradicting your own point?

The thing is smaller countries often have mass emigration, especially of professional sports people to better themselves on a bigger stage, so they can't afford to lose them to whatever national league(s) they assimilate into.

We've already seen this farce in NZ & Oz rugby and English cricket where teams go round hoovering up all eligible talent, with limited recourse or of dual use of players, eg. Ed Joyce and just serves to concentrate the resources of many into the hands of the few.
That said the individual should have some sort of choice but would feel FIFA's current restrictions (for all their other many faults) are probably the best compromise.
Anyway with the case of Ingerland it's nothing new, eg. John Barnes or Owen Hargreaves.

[DannyInvincible]

Perhaps he just assumes, wrongly, that McCourt is looking to jump ship.
More's the pity that he didn't do so years ago, but good luck to him.

He's played in a competitive fixture for them though, so there's no chance of him jumping ship. He's tied now.

[Gather round]

it did seem a bit odd at the time considering McCourt's performances and blatant ability then, as does leaving him out now for a vital Euro qualifier in favour of including inexperienced schoolboys and the like

The real oddity in this squad is Gorman's inclusion rather than McCourt's shunning. That said, big Nige has also regularly used McGinn, Little (another Old Firm reserve), as well as the ManU youth players and semi-retired Healy. And LoI keeper Mannus, of course.

Worthington has little support left now, after a run of defeats and bizarre selections. Most of our fans expect a sound beating in Maribor and are hoping he'll walk after that.

PS interesting points on the Arteta row above, esp by Messrs Nedser and Irish Fan 86.

[ifk101]

Most of our fans expect a sound beating in Maribor and are hoping he'll walk after that.

Away matches invariably end in sound beatings, no?

I've a feeling the Faroe Islands are due an "upset". I imagine Nigel will walk after that game.

[Gather round]

Away matches invariably end in sound beatings, no?

No.

WC 2010 qualifying:

Czechia A- 0:0
Poland A- 1:1
San Marino A 3:0

EC 2008 qualifying

Sweden A- 1:1
Liechtenstein A 4:1
Denmark A 0:0


I've a feeling the Faroe Islands are due an "upset". I imagine Nigel will walk after that game

IIRC, didn't you guarantee on a previous thread that NI wouldn't win? I think we will, 1-0 would do. But if I'm wrong, it would be the most embarrassing result since Iceland in 2006.

[ifk101]

No.

WC 2010 qualifying:

Czechia A- 0:0
Poland A- 1:1
San Marino A 3:0

EC 2008 qualifying

Sweden A- 1:1
Liechtenstein A 4:1
Denmark A 0:0

2010.
Albania 1 - 0 Northern Ireland
Montenegro 2 - 0 Northern Ireland

Summer Tour
Turkey 2 - 0 Northern Ireland
Chile 1 - 0 Northern Ireland


IIRC, didn't you guarantee on a previous thread that NI wouldn't win? I think we will, 1-0 would do. But if I'm wrong, it would be the most embarrassing result since Iceland in 2006.

Yeah I think I did write that. Obviously I can't guarantee something that falls outside my control but I've seen enough of the Faroes under Brian Kerr to know that a team that can't score goals will struggle against them. I'm certainly glad we didn't get drawn against them. But anyways I'm sure I told you that Montenegro were a stronger team than NI, which you dismissed. Don't think NI had a shot on goals against them in the recent friendly.

[Gather round]

2010.
Albania 1 - 0 Northern Ireland
Montenegro 2 - 0 Northern Ireland

Summer Tour
Turkey 2 - 0 Northern Ireland
Chile 1 - 0 Northern Ireland

You do know what 'invariably' means, I hope? We're poor away from home, but when it matters we beat minnows and often draw with stronger teams.


Yeah I think I did write that. Obviously I can't guarantee something that falls outside my control but I've seen enough of the Faroes under Brian Kerr to know that a team that can't score goals will struggle against them

Maybe you should watch more closely. The Faroes almost always lose, so even a weak NI will be favorite to scrape home.

WC qualifying:

NI 4-3-3-13-9-15
FO 1-1-8-5-20-4


I'm certainly glad we didn't get drawn against them

Fine, I think we can agree they're stronger than Andorra or San Marino.


But anyways I'm sure I told you that Montenegro were a stronger team than NI, which you dismissed

Based on comparable record I was right. We got 15 points, they only managed nine.


Don't think NI had a shot on goals against them in the recent friendly

We had four or five on target. Stop posting nonsense.

[Nedser]

I guess it just strikes me as funny that some English seem appalled that Arteta could play for England when he's been living there for five years, has an English wife, etc...whereas Hargreaves has only been there three years or so. Sure there's more to nationality than time spent in a country, I just find it interesting that Hargreaves was never difficult for them to swallow, but Arteta is.

Goes back to the search for pure blood I guess, haha.

What's the supposed issue with Hargreaves? His Dad is English. No question at all he qualfies for England. It doesn't matter if he never lived there.

[ifk101]

You do know what 'invariably' means, I hope?

Of course not. :bigsmile:


We're poor away from home, but when it matters we beat minnows and often draw with stronger teams.

The only competitive away wins in the last 10 or so odd years have been against San Marino, Malta and Liechtenstein. Away defeats were recorded against the minnows of Iceland and Latvia during NI's arguably most successful qualification campaign in recent decades. Away draws against stronger nations have mostly come towards the end of qualification campaigns when the opposition are going through the motions of fulfilling a fixture. The away draw against Denmark was played early in a qualification campaign but if I recall that was a "backs to the wall" performance from NI but agree that it was a fanastic result for NI and a disappointing result for the Danes (and a qualification campaign on the whole that the Danes want to forget).


Maybe you should watch more closely. The Faroes almost always lose, so even a weak NI will be favorite to scrape home.

WC qualifying:

NI 4-3-3-13-9-15
FO 1-1-8-5-20-4

NI will be favourities of course. But l'm confident that the Faroes will give a good account of themselves against NI. Both France and Serbia had to dig deep for their away wins against them and the Faroes did, in their most recent competitive home game, record a win against Lithuania, who are ranked higher than NI in the FIFA ranking table.



Based on comparable record I was right. We got 15 points, they only managed nine.

But you weren't playing the same opposition. When NI finally got to play Montenegro, NI were soundly beaten.


We had four or five on target. Stop posting nonsense.

The words "rarely troubled" describe Montenegro's goalie's performance against NI.

[Gather round]

What's the supposed issue with Hargreaves? His Dad is English. No question at all he qualfies for England. It doesn't matter if he never lived there.

One issue is that he played regularly for Wales's youth teams, then moved to England's U-21. He also qualified for Canada and lived in Germany for long enough to qualify under the current rules, had he not chosen England.

[Gather round]

Away draws against stronger nations have mostly come towards the end of qualification campaigns when the opposition are going through the motions

Not true for the Poland game last time, nor that against Sweden in Euro 2008 (your neighbors only qualified in the last game of 12). And while the Czechs were below par when we played them, qualifiers are never completely irrelevant. I mean, there are seeding points to be earned.


NI will be favourities of course. But l'm confident that the Faroes will give a good account of themselves...Faroes did record a home win against Lithuania, who are ranked higher than NI in the FIFA ranking table

Indeed, We certainly won't under-estimate them and would be quite pleased with a narrow win.


But you weren't playing the same opposition. When NI finally got to play Montenegro, NI were soundly beaten

We were playing in a group of roughly equal standard, including a team that finished 12 points ahead of you in previous qualifying. Clearly we were better in qualifying, they beat us comfortably in a one-off friendly. Unless, according to your warped logic, Montenegro's two draws make them as good as the RoI despite finishing nine points behind.


The words "rarely troubled" describe Montenegro's goalie's performance against NI

Didn't see it, did you? Their keeper made three excellent saves.

[Nedser]

One issue is that he played regularly for Wales's youth teams, then moved to England's U-21. He also qualified for Canada and lived in Germany for long enough to qualify under the current rules, had he not chosen England.

Yeah but one person said Hargreaves doesn't qualify for England under the new rules and someone else can't see the distinction between Hargreaves and Arteta.

What you say is correct AFAIK but none of it would mean he's ineligible for England.

[Charlie Darwin]

Hargreaves doesn't qualify as homegrown for the new 25-man squad requirement - there's no question he doesn't qualfiy for the national team.

I think John Barnes would be a better comparison to Arteta. England fans never had a problem accepting him, presumably because he came from an English-speaking country and picked up an English accent very quickly. Most people are probably not aware that he didn't set foot in England until he was 16.

[ArdeeBhoy]

All this is fascinating, but the North are even more mediocre than Ireland away from home.
It's nothing to do with seeding points in either case, but invariably grabbing a goal and/or holding out against their goal(s) being under siege and hanging on for dear life. Yet another reason why a UI team could hardly do any worse....

One last point, Montenegro, a new country and FIFA member, will prove themselves to be better than the North in the longer term. And the basis of their two draws last time round., maybe the proper Ireland team also.

[Nedser]

Hargreaves doesn't qualify as homegrown for the new 25-man squad requirement - there's no question he doesn't qualfiy for the national team.


Thanks for clarifying. Completely different issue though as you say as that has nothing to do with nationality.



I think John Barnes would be a better comparison to Arteta. England fans never had a problem accepting him, presumably because he came from an English-speaking country and picked up an English accent very quickly. Most people are probably not aware that he didn't set foot in England until he was 16.

English accent?! Have you heard him speak?

[ifk101]

Not true for the Poland game last time, nor that against Sweden in Euro 2008 (your neighbors only qualified in the last game of 12). And while the Czechs were below par when we played them, qualifiers are never completely irrelevant. I mean, there are seeding points to be earned.

When NI played Sweden away, Sweden only needed 3 points from their last 3 games to qualify. I know they expected to confirm qualification the night they played NI at home and duly went through the motions in the expectation that they would win with the minimum of effort. NI punished them accordingly but really should have won given Sweden's disinterest. Poland and the Czechs were pretty much out of the reckoning when they played NI.


We were playing in a group of roughly equal standard, including a team that finished 12 points ahead of you in previous qualifying. Clearly we were better in qualifying, they beat us comfortably in a one-off friendly. Unless, according to your warped logic, Montenegro's two draws make them as good as the RoI despite finishing nine points behind.

What seeding did Montenegro have? They didn't enter the qualification process on a similar footing to NI. The game and result between the two sides speaks for itself.


Didn't see it, did you?

Ireland A were playing.


Their keeper made three excellent saves.

It wasn't my description of their goalie's performance.

[geysir]

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid29318049001?bctid=592799131001

I wonder what Matt Holland and Andy Townsend think of Roy's sentiments?

(I would like to have heard a bit more of the Owen Coyle interview - from the clip it sounds as if he was an opportunist who decided to play for us - actually come to think of it .. Steve Bruce qualified to play for us too .. Irish interest in all three managers interviewed)
Owen's decision to declare for us has already been documented here.
There were 2 letters of invitations on his kitchen table at the same time, one from Scotland and one from Ireland, to join up with the relevant u21 squads. For him it was a no brainer and he chose Ireland, his first u21 game was lining out against Scotland.

[Gather round]

invariably grabbing a goal and/or holding out against their goal(s) being under siege and hanging on for dear life

Aye, as IFK said we invariably lose except when we don't. Good value for those draws, although admittedly against Denmark the home side may have been distracted by the giant blow-up doll behind our goal.


Yet another reason why a UI team could hardly do any worse....

Zzz. You've already got a united Ireland plus English and Scottish guest players, yet you think it's likely to fall behind Montenegro in future? Stop posting nonsense.


One last point, Montenegro, a new country and FIFA member, will prove themselves to be better than the North in the longer term

If you're going to judge them on WC qualifying, they won one game. Let's see how they get on this time.

[Gather round]

NI punished them accordingly but really should have won given Sweden's disinterest

Ha ha. Another game you didn't watch, clearly. The draw was a fair result. In any case, with NI widely regarded as out of the reckoning after losing to Iceland and Latvia, the Svens should have won given our disinterest.


Poland and the Czechs were pretty much out of the reckoning when they played NI

The Poles weren't- they still had four of their eight significant games left. Excluding San Marino, with due respect to their slight improvement in Euro 08.


What seeding did Montenegro have? They didn't enter the qualification process on a similar footing to NI. The game and result between the two sides speaks for itself

Spare us the rhetorical flourishes. Everyone enters qualification on the same basis; everyone played eight or 10 games; Montenegro managed one win against similarly mediocre opposition to that in the other groups. The game between us and them was a one-off friendly which speaks for very little compared to a whole qulifying series. Your suggestion that the RoI-Montenegro group was somehow more difficult than the others is a bit silly. They, Georgia and Cyprus won three games out of 30 between them. Hardly World-beaters. As for the rest, it's luck of the draw.


Ireland A were playing

Get some new material. With you as Goteborg's top comedian it's little wonder the suicide rate's so high.


It wasn't my description of their goalie's performance

We know that. It was still wrong.

[boovidge]

Aye, as IFK said we invariably lose except when we don't. Good value for those draws, although admittedly against Denmark the home side may have been distracted by the giant blow-up doll behind our goal.



Zzz. You've already got a united Ireland plus English and Scottish guest players, yet you think it's likely to fall behind Montenegro in future? Stop posting nonsense.



If you're going to judge them on WC qualifying, they won one game. Let's see how they get on this time.

Why do you have to go and spoil a reasonably argued post with pathetic hypocritical sniping at the fact that a small minority of our players weren't born in Ireland?

[Charlie Darwin]

English accent?! Have you heard him speak?
He has like a half-and-half accent. Maybe I'm just mental.

[Gather round]

Why do you have to go and spoil a reasonably argued post with pathetic hypocritical sniping at the fact that a small minority of our players weren't born in Ireland?

Lighten up, Boo. I'm merely coming down to Ardee Troll and IFK's wind-up level to answer them. Nor is it hypocritical- I'm not saying you shouldn't have British players in your squad, if they are eligible.

[ifk101]

Ha ha. Another game you didn't watch, clearly. The draw was a fair result.

Whether the draw was a fair result or not is irrelevant to the point I'm making which was Sweden underperformed on the night. Given my location, you can assume that I have seen Sweden play on countless more occasions than you so you can also assume that I'm the better judge of whether they underperformed or not. Regardless the main factual piece of information that's not subjective is that Sweden only needed 3 points from their remaining 3 games and the Swedish FA had made preparations for a "qualification party" on the night of the NI game.


The Poles weren't- they still had four of their eight significant games left. Excluding San Marino, with due respect to their slight improvement in Euro 08.

Hence the use of the phrase "pretty much out of the reckoning".


Spare us the rhetorical flourishes. Everyone enters qualification on the same basis; everyone played eight or 10 games; Montenegro managed one win against similarly mediocre opposition to that in the other groups. The game between us and them was a one-off friendly which speaks for very little compared to a whole qulifying series. Your suggestion that the RoI-Montenegro group was somehow more difficult than the others is a bit silly. They, Georgia and Cyprus won three games out of 30 between them. Hardly World-beaters. As for the rest, it's luck of the draw.

Groups are seeded. Montenegro were 6th seeds at the time. NI were 4th seeds (if I recall correctly). Again Montenegro played NI recently and recorded a comfortable win.


We know that. It was still wrong.

In your opinion. Others have a different opinion. Can we agree on the result? Montenegro 2 - 0?

[Gather round]

Given my location, you can assume that I have seen Sweden play on countless more occasions than you so you can also assume that I'm the better judge of whether they underperformed or not

Er, why would I assume any of that? You're just another anonymous poster on the internet, variously pontificating about games you haven't seen, quoting supposed facts that you've made up and indulging in childish wind-ups. I couldn't care less if you've seen every Swedish international since the break-up of Abba, presumably in some parallel universe while simultaneously watching the Republic of Ireland's games on the same dates. I've only seen a handful, including the two against NI, but I also managed brief youtube highlights of most of the other games in Euro 2008. More than enough to assess all the teams in the group.


Regardless the main factual piece of information that's not subjective is that Sweden only needed 3 points from their remaining 3 games and the Swedish FA had made preparations for a "qualification party" on the night of the NI game

More fool them.


Hence the use of the phrase "pretty much out of the reckoning"

If you equate "pretty much out of the reckoning" with "not out of the reckoning at all", you must realise that other readers will be confused?


NI were 4th seeds (if I recall correctly)

You don't, we were seeded third. Are you the Belfast Telegraph's Goteborg correspondent?


Again Montenegro played NI recently and recorded a comfortable win

Aye, and Queen Anne's dead. As I said, according to your warped logic one game- even if a friendly- trumps a series of 10 qualifiers- on which basis presumably Montenegro are as good as the RoI despite finishing miles behind? Bizarre.


In your opinion. Others have a different opinion

Indeed, although I'd be wary of opinions not based on watching the game.


Can we agree on the result?

You're the one making up stats, dear. Have a ryvita and stop posting rank-pulling nonsense.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ignore him people, if anyone's a Troll it's someone who says they're British &, er, 'Irish' trying to be a WUM.

But ending up generally looking pretty retarded, simply because they have nothing better to do with their time....

Proof enough from his ill-considered response to Post #1628 in #1632 where he fails to answer the points made!

[Gather round]

Afternoon, troll. You can stop trolling and all.

[ifk101]

Er, why would I assume any of that? You're just another anonymous poster on the internet, variously pontificating about games you haven't seen, quoting supposed facts that you've made up and indulging in childish wind-ups. I couldn't care less if you've seen every Swedish international since the break-up of Abba, presumably in some parallel universe while simultaneously watching the Republic of Ireland's games on the same dates. I've only seen a handful, including the two against NI, but I also managed brief youtube highlights of most of the other games in Euro 2008. More than enough to assess all the teams in the group.

Supposed facts and wind-ups? Please.


More fool them.

Aye. Their minds weren't on the game at hand.


If you equate "pretty much out of the reckoning" with "not out of the reckoning at all", you must realise that other readers will be confused?

Only one reader apparently.


You don't, we were seeded third. Are you the Belfast Telegraph's Goteborg correspondent?

No. Hence why I highlighted that I was unsure. But ultimately irrelevant to the point that NI had a higher seeding than Montenegro.


Aye, and Queen Anne's dead. As I said, according to your warped logic one game- even if a friendly- trumps a series of 10 qualifiers- on which basis presumably Montenegro are as good as the RoI despite finishing miles behind? Bizarre.

Bizarre is your comparison of the qualification results of a team seeded 3rd and a team seeded 6th. Surely you can accept that the qualification prospects for a team seeded 3rd are higher than those for a team seeded 6th?


Indeed, although I'd be wary of opinions not based on watching the game.

Brief youtube clips are acceptable though?


You're the one making up stats, dear. Have a ryvita and stop posting rank-pulling nonsense.

The stats I've posted are results of football games. Cheerio. Off to have a Ryvita with cheese.

[Gather round]

Supposed facts and wind-ups? Please

You're welcome. My pleasure.


Bizarre is your comparison of the qualification results of a team seeded 3rd and a team seeded 6th. Surely you can accept that the qualification prospects for a team seeded 3rd are higher than those for a team seeded 6th?

Your group was roughly equivalent in standard to ours, as it turned out to have three fifth-rate teams even if none were genuine no-hopers. Given that, I'm merely comparing our 15 points with their nine and concluding the former was clearly better. It's quite simple.


Brief youtube clips are acceptable though?

Aye. You can overdo the analysis, like. It's only football games between scratch teams.


The stats I've posted are results of football games. Cheerio. Off to have a Ryvita with cheese

Not invariably. Anyway, bon appetit and have some gravlax for me.

[shakermaker1982]

GR

Are you also trying to imply that because England got 27 points they are better than Germany (26) and Holland (24)?

Switzerland only got 21 points whilst the mighty Spain managed 30. We all know what happened in their fixture.....you cannot just use point tallies gleaned from qualification groups to make judgements on who is better than who.

[Gather round]

GR

Are you also trying to imply that because England got 27 points they are better than Germany (26) and Holland (24)?

In qualifying, England were slightly better than Germany; in the finals they clearly weren't. Holland were better than both teams at both stages of the competition. Their 24 points game from only eight matches- so, like Spain, they had a 100% record in qualifying.


Switzerland only got 21 points whilst the mighty Spain managed 30. We all know what happened in their fixture.....you cannot just use point tallies gleaned from qualification groups to make judgements on who is better than who

I think you can, for the teams that didn't qualify. It's more objective than using convoluted FIFA or Elo rankings, or judging from one game which might be a friendly.

In the group stage of the World Cup, Spain outpointed Switzerland 6-4 btw.

[The Fly]

Hargreaves doesn't qualify as homegrown for the new 25-man squad requirement - there's no question he doesn't qualfiy for the national team.

I think John Barnes would be a better comparison to Arteta. *England fans never had a problem accepting him, presumably because he came from an English-speaking country and picked up an English accent very quickly. Most people are probably not aware that he didn't set foot in England until he was 16.


I take it your joking?


* I'd like to hear John Barnes' view on the 'warm embrace' afforded to him by England fans.

[DannyInvincible]

I'm surprised that nobody in the media has seemingly yet to pick up on the implications of article 18 from FIFA's statutes on Arteta's alleged eligibility for England. The consequences of the wording seem pretty clear to me - that he is in fact ineligible - but I've done a quick Google search and have only encountered any mention of this likelihood on other football forums and Wikipedia, which cites the FIFA statutes.

[geysir]

I take it your joking?


* I'd like to hear John Barnes' view on the 'warm embrace' shown to him by England fans.There is a lot of warmth in banana offerings.

Talking about jokes, I get mixed up between John Barnes and Lenny Henry.

[The Fly]

Talking about jokes, I get mixed up between John Barnes and Lenny Henry.


Just keep asking yourself....."which one used to bang Dawn French?"

That should help resolve any confusion!

[Charlie Darwin]

I take it your joking?


* I'd like to hear John Barnes' view on the 'warm embrace' afforded to him by England fans.
Well now I look silly - England fans have indeed historically been fond of a bit of the old racism. I suppose what I meant is that Barnes never really got it for not being English - he got it for being black, just like Luther Blisset or Rio Ferdinand.

[irishfan86]

Slightly off topic, but I thought those of you interested in eligibility would be interested in the case of Guadeloupe. FIFA doesn't recognize its national team, but it is an associated member of CONCACAF, meaning it participates in the top regional tournament (the Gold Cup, CONCACAF's answer to the European Championships).

I bring this up because I nearly fell off my chair watching Canada play Guadeloupe when I heard the that "former French international" Jocelyn Angloma was playing for them!

Article on it here:
http://www.worldsoccer.com/features/a_former_french_international_has_revived_guadelou pe_writes_steve_menary_features_294499.html