Player eligibility row

[tetsujin1979]

I fear you are reading the wrong section. Please go and read the Statutes again. Section VI Article 15.


EDIT:

I'll save you the bother

Simple? Clear?
if the GFA is irrelevant, then explain to me how a player, born in the North, with no family connection to the Republic in the previous 2 generations, could play for the Republic before the GFA

[dan o d]

Eh no we shouldnt

[Mr_Parker]

if the GFA is irrelevant, then explain to me how a player, born in the North, with no family connection to the Republic in the previous 2 generations, could play for the Republic before the GFA

Because they were Irish citizens.

[tetsujin1979]

Because they were Irish citizens.but they didn't qualify for an Republic of Ireland passport

[dantheman]

but they didn't qualify for an Republic of Ireland passport

yes they did

[dr_peepee]

You mean nationalist youths like Paddy McCourt, Nial McGinn and old day nationalists like Pat Jennings?

Or do you conveniently ignore them as it doesn't fit in with your fantasy of us being a bunch of bigots?

No one here can say you are a bunch of biggots, no more that you can say biggotry doesn't exist.

What I don't get, and this goes far back with posts with EG, is if the ruling is in place (evolving out of any number of political/religious historical issues all discussed here in depth), why are the IFA targeting the rule itself rather than the the reason the players are leaving in the first place?? I honestly don't understand it.

[tetsujin1979]

yes they did
how?
Once again, born in the North, no parents or grandparents born in the Republic. How did they qualify for a Republic of Ireland passport before the GFA?

[ifk101]

how?
Once again, born in the North, no parents or grandparents born in the Republic. How did they qualify for a Republic of Ireland passport before the GFA?

I'm no expert on the GFA agreement and to be perfectly honest have little interest in politics let alone Northern Irish politics but prior to the GFA agreement the Irish constitution lay claim to Northern Ireland. And btw there's no such thing as a Republic of Ireland passport ;).

[Mr_Parker]

but they didn't qualify for an Republic of Ireland passport

Maybe you should go and read the FIFA Statutes in full afterall. (a wee read of the Irish Constitution pre and post the GFA wouldn't go amiss either) A passport is not a FIFA requirement for eligibility, nationality is. And anyway as dantheman points points out below, they were entitled to one.


yes they did

Thank you.

[Newryrep]

how?
Once again, born in the North, no parents or grandparents born in the Republic. How did they qualify for a Republic of Ireland passport before the GFA?

I had a Irish passport years before the GFA, pretty sure parents grandparents born in the north, Grandparents probably pre partition but pretty sure it would not of mattered. As has been stated before the GFA has nothing to do with the the right of somebody in the north to have a passport

[dantheman]

The new OWC fans banner for the glamour tie against Albania has been unveiled:

:D:D

[third policeman]

And wouldnt it be preferable to have a GB team to represent the whole Island of Britain instead of 3 or 4 teams..


Yes it would.

[Sinéad K]

With regards to the whole nationality thing, before the GFA we had dual citizenship, I had an Irish passport in the 1970's. There was quite a good article in the Irish News a few years ago about this, specifically about dual nationality & I see the Irish News has run again with the same kind of story after Duffy has made his choice.

The lad is only 17, give him a break.

[The Fly]

if the GFA is irrelevant, then explain to me how a player, born in the North, with no family connection to the Republic in the previous 2 generations, could play for the Republic before the GFA

tets, Mr. Parker is half-right. The GFA is indeed irrelevant in this dispute.

The only reason why players born in Northern Ireland could not play for the Republic of Ireland in international football, was the "gentleman's agreement" that existed between the FAI and the IFA, which precluded them from doing so. That agreement no longer exists, rightfully so in my view.

Nationality is somewhat of a red-herring here as people born in Northern Ireland have always had or been eligible for Irish citizenship.

[elroy]

tets, Mr. Parker is half-right. The GFA is indeed irrelevant in this dispute.

The only reason why players born in Northern Ireland could not play for the Republic of Ireland in international football, was the "gentleman's agreement" that existed between the FAI and the IFA, which precluded them from doing so. That agreement no longer exists, rightfully so in my view.

Nationality is somewhat of a red-herring here as people born in Northern Ireland have always had or been eligible for Irish citizenship.

Must say I wasnt aware of this, so basically Martin O'Neill, Jennings and others technically qualified to play for ROI. It was solely this "gentlemans agreement" that stopped them from doing so.

[The Fly]

Must say I wasnt aware of this, so basically Martin O'Neill, Jennings and others technically qualified to play for ROI. It was solely this "gentlemans agreement" that stopped them from doing so.

Correct.

[tetsujin1979]

I also wasn't aware of any agreement, previous debates about this on the forum had led me to believe it was the GFA that changed the status quo

[Gather round]

Anything that the team can do under FIFA rules should be pursued

FIFA rules mean that you could lose an international player (of any age) to another country, similar to the James McCarthy example I mentioned. Would you be as relaxed if that happened?


Why would any Irish man play for a country that flys the union jack, plays GSTQ or has a crown on its flag?

Er, because it's part of Ireland (the clue's in the name).


I think there are 2 completely separate issues being debated here at the same time...I'm not sure if there is actually any debate here in response to question 1

Agreed. Although there's pretty much 100% agreement on the first here, and even grudging acceptance among NI fans.


if a player was born in the 6 counties, wants to play for the Rep and hasn't previously played for NI, then by all means we should pick him. Partly because we're allowed to and partly because I believe that person is every bit as Irish as I am

All NI players (except Maik) and pretty much all the fans are as Irish as you are.


The worst thing about the new rule is it means there will be even more Clinton Morrissons and Maik Taylors in the future

Can't speak for Morrison, but the Taylor example (where Brits born outside the country can declare for either E, S, W or NI) no longer applies.


What the IFA need to do is to try and entice the nationalist population to support the NI team. I don't know how they will manage to do such a thing but until they do this is going to continue to happen

They are already doing so. Of course a large majority of nationalist fans in NI support the RoI. Many are content to follow NI as well, as their second team; a minority support NI alone. Whatever the IFA and NI fans do, some players locally will prefer to play for the South; I think almost all NI fans accept that, and some (me included) have no problem with it. The issue is really whether individuals should be able to play for two different teams.


Must say I wasnt aware of this, so basically Martin O'Neill, Jennings and others technically qualified to play for ROI. It was solely this "gentlemans agreement" that stopped them from doing so

Hardly solely, was it? No-one press ganged them into playing.

Sinead, Newryrep and the others are right about the availability of RoI passports to people from NI. When I lived in Dublin I was visiting a mate who worked at Iveagh House, and got chatting briefly to Seamus Mallon who was there renewing one for his daughter. I've no idea whether she had any parents or grandparents born in the South, but it wasn't really relevant.

[Cymro]

As a relatively neutral outsider, I will say that the rules as they are seem to rather hand NI the short straw. I think there should be no special exception to normal eligibility rules for Ireland (both associations), though I admit that also Northern Ireland should stop playing God Save the Queen if their team is to be considered truly cross-community.

That's my dau ceiniog's worth, and I'm only saying it once - not getting into any messy debates here.

[The Fly]

I also wasn't aware of any agreement, previous debates about this on the forum had led me to believe it was the GFA that changed the status quo

Technically speaking, under FIFA's rules players born in Northern Ireland have always been eligible to play for the Republic of Ireland. A "gentleman's agreement" had been reached between the FAI and IFA in 1950, whereby neither Association would select players from each others territory. This agreement became null and void when Darron Gibson received his first international cap.

The issue of nationality is a red herring. This is simply because, since partition, the Irish Government/State has automatically granted Irish citizenship, from birth, to anyone born on the island of Ireland. This nationality qualification already comes under the existing eligibility criteria established by FIFA.

[Gather round]

Edited

[Gather round]

As a relatively neutral outsider, I will say that the rules as they are seem to rather hand NI the short straw

I don't think we can complain too much if the 42% who want to be part of another country also ideally would prefer to support/ play for its football teams. Or that we have a limited pool to choose from; that's an inevitability in a small country. On the other hand, Liechtenstein, Faroes and Malta etc. seem to manage. So as above I'm arguing merely that playing for one country as an adult should prevent you later playing for another.


I admit that also Northern Ireland should stop playing God Save the Queen if their team is to be considered truly cross-community

I don't like it and would change tomorrow. But in practice, a lot of people would still grumble that it wasn't cross-community. Remember that many of them, well represented on this thread, think that the NI team should be abolished. But iechyd da to you too.


This is simply because, since partition, the Irish Government/State has automatically granted Irish citizenship, from birth, to anyone born on the island of Ireland

Correct me if wrong, but doesn't the Constitution (27th amendment) limit this to anyone born to an Irish parent?

[backstothewall]

only if that player had parents or grandparents born within the Republic, which would qualify him for a passport.
As I stated, it doesn't apply in Duffy's case because his father is from Donegal, but it does apply in the case of Gibson.

In future the GFA is going to become more and more relevant for players born in the North, but who want to play for the Republic.

It certainly is. Even before the GFA I would have qualified for the Republic, as despite all my grandparents being born in the north, at least one was born before partition, which entitled me to an Irish passport. But as time and generations go by more and more will be relying on the GFA.

If only i wasn't rubbish I could have taken advantage of that fact.

[DannyInvincible]

Correct me if wrong, but doesn't the Constitution (27th amendment) limit this to anyone born to an Irish parent?

The purpose of this amendment was to prevent non-nationals from arriving on the island of Ireland to give birth to a child in order to secure Irish citizenship for that child. This Irish citizenship would have given the child the right to reside anywhere within the EU and, in turn, the parent the right to reside with it.

It had no bearing on Irish nationals in Northern Ireland though. All those born on the island with a parent entitled to Irish citizenship by virtue of being born on the island were unaffected.

This gives an overview of the reasoning behind it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-seventh_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland#O verview


Today a constitutional right to citizenship still exists for anyone who is both:
-Born on the island of Ireland (including its islands and seas).
-Born to at least one parent who is, or is entitled to be, an Irish citizen.

[DannyInvincible]

Would it be fair to assume that the passing of the GFA had a bearing on the FAI's willingness to by-pass this "gentleman's agreement" in that the British government along with the population in Northern Ireland formally agreed that all those born on the island were entitled to Irish citizenship, whereas they hadn't previously, which would have made such an action as the FAI calling a northern-born player up appear hostile and somewhat irredentist with a flagrant disregard for what was then still under dispute as far as international relations were concerned?

[Newryrep]

Can I just state that the flag and the anthem of Northern Ireland are not an issue at all and anybody who says it is is likely talking ******. It is the fact that there is a Northern Ireland, I have absolutely no allegiance to that state nor would ever describe myself as Northern Irish - the flag and the anthem issue is a total red herring. At least we can be honest

[seanfhear]

Because of the circumstances on our unfortunately divided Island it is my belief that any Irish Man north or South should play for the team of their choosing.

Kind of crazy to have supported the RoI team all of your life and if you have the desire and ability not to be able to play for them. The same also holds for NI.

[Scram]

Eh, no!!!

[elroy]

Because of the circumstances on our unfortunately divided Island it is my belief that any Irish Man north or South should play for the team of their choosing.

Kind of crazy to have supported the RoI team all of your life and if you have the desire and ability not to be able to play for them. The same also holds for NI.

I agree, of course from a NI perspective it is very unlikely that they will get too many lads born in ROI who will declare for NI whereas (ROI) we are more likely to benefit.
Having said that imo, the rules as they stand are correct. My only suggestion for change would be that an Under 21 competitive cap ties you to that country and not let the topsy turvy scenarios we are left with under the current rules.

[Nedser]

Fifa Statute 15 refers to nationality, not passports.

Yes, but you have to prove your nationality, and the standard way of doing so is with a passport. Another way would be a birth cert, but showing birth cert proving you were born in Belfast would not in itself be likey to satisfy FIFA that your nationality lies with ROI. The obvious assumption, in fact, would be that you are eligible for NI. Before the GFA, the states of Ireland* and the UK disagreed about the citizenship of people born in the 6 counties. Ireland took the view they were Irish, while the UK took the view that they were British. If anything, I think FIFA would have sided with the UK on that, as the international community generally accepts they hold sovereignty over NI. Therefore, before the GFA, I don't believe anyone born in NI would have been allowed to play for the ROI without holding an Irish passport. Now both countries agree that anyone born in the 6 counties can choose to hold either nationality or both, so now FIFA presumably would require no additional documentation other than a birth cert. The GFA is certainly not entirely irrelevant in any case.

Another problem with you referring to FIFA statutes and "nationality" is that there is no such thing in law as "Northern Irish" nationality (or English, Scottish or Welsh for that matter), and so proving that you hold such nationality is actually impossible. The special dispensation to the 4 UK teams to field international teams despite not being independent countries really muddies the waters in any debate of this sort. Someone previously implied that ROI has a special advantage here - on the contrary it's the 4 "home nations" that do.

* No apologies for using "Ireland" in this context as that's what the state is called, ROI was a FIFA invented name for the football team.

[The Fly]

Yes, but you have to prove your nationality, and the standard way of doing so is with a passport. Another way would be a birth cert, but showing birth cert proving you were born in Belfast would not in itself be likey to satisfy FIFA that your nationality lies with ROI. The obvious assumption, in fact, would be that you are eligible for NI. Before the GFA, the states of Ireland* and the UK disagreed about the citizenship of people born in the 6 counties. Ireland took the view they were Irish, while the UK took the view that they were British. If anything, I think FIFA would have sided with the UK on that, as the international community generally accepts they hold sovereignty over NI. Therefore, before the GFA, I don't believe anyone born in NI would have been allowed to play for the ROI without holding an Irish passport. Now both countries agree that anyone born in the 6 counties can choose to hold either nationality or both, so now FIFA presumably would require no additional documentation other than a birth cert. The GFA is certainly not entirely irrelevant in any case.



Nedser, I refer you to this reply I posted earlier on this issue.

"Technically speaking, under FIFA's rules players born in Northern Ireland have always been eligible to play for the Republic of Ireland. However, a "gentleman's agreement" had been reached between the FAI and IFA in 1950, whereby neither Association would select players from each others territory. This agreement became null and void when Darron Gibson received his first international cap.

The issue of nationality is a red herring. This is simply because, since partition, the Irish Government/State has automatically granted Irish citizenship, from birth, to anyone born on the island of Ireland. This nationality qualification already comes under the existing eligibility criteria established by FIFA."

It is important for everyone to become fully informed of the facts, namely the above, surrounding this whole issue to prevent any further confusion on the matter.

[Nedser]

The issue of nationality is a red herring. This is simply because, since partition, the Irish Government/State has automatically granted Irish citizenship, from birth, to anyone born on the island of Ireland. This nationality qualification already comes under the existing eligibility criteria established by FIFA."[/I]

It is important for everyone to become fully informed of the facts, namely the above, surrounding this whole issue to prevent any further confusion on the matter.

I'm aware of those facts, but as I stated in my post, before the GFA, people born in the 6 counties were automatically considered Irish citziens by the Irish state, but not by the UK. As such, proving you were born in NI would not at the time have proven to FIFA that you had the appropriate nationality to play for ROI. You would have needed some other document to prove you had the appropriate nationality, and in practice, that document is normally an Irish passport. I agree that anyone born in the North was always entitled to an Irish passport though (well by "always", I mean since independence for the 26).

[DannyInvincible]

I'm interested in why the FAI saw fit to break the "gentleman's agreement" when they did if it had nothing to do with the GFA? Why was such an agreement even entered into and maintained? I would have assumed that the political climate and unique constitutional status of Northern Ireland created post-GFA - officially recognised and agreed upon by all states in the historical dispute over the territory - would have contributed to this willingness to renege on it. Surely it's what provided at least the moral clout to go through with it and push the issue? Possibly if the "gentleman's agreement" had been breached before then and the IFA took the issue up with FIFA, FIFA might have sided in favour of the IFA by insisting on the superiority of the application of UK nationality law over Irish nationality law within the UK? Maybe I'm totally wrong and it was mere coincidence that Gibson decided to break tradition and force the issue, but I'd always imagined that the official recognition of his Irish nationality by the state or jurisdiction in which he was born provided a sense of complete and indisputable legitimacy in declaring for Ireland.

[endabob1]

I seem to recall that if your grandparent was born anywhere in Ireland before partition you qualified for both under the FIFA rules, I always thought that's how Alan Kernaghan played for us having turned out for the Nordie Schoolboys?

[Nedser]

I seem to recall that if your grandparent was born anywhere in Ireland before partition you qualified for both under the FIFA rules, I always thought that's how Alan Kernaghan played for us having turned out for the Nordie Schoolboys?

Alan Kernaghan's situation was extremely complicated - I remember reading about it ages back. If I recall correctly, he was born in England to English-born parents, but then spent most of his childhood in NI.

At the time, another "gentleman's agreement" was in place between the 4 UK associations, so they would not utilise the grandparent rule to pick players born within other UK jurisdictions. As such, Kernaghan was never eligible for NI. I assume he qualified for ROI because his grandparent(s) were born in Ireland (island of), which at the time entitled you to an Irish passport.

AFAIK, the only qualification for schoolboy representation is where you go to school (there is a distinction between the U18 schoolboy team and the U18 national team). So Kernaghan qualified for NI schoolboys by virtue of the fact that he went to school there, in the same way Ryan Giggs played for England schoolboys, but was never eligible for the England national team.

[endabob1]

His grandfather was Belfast born afaik, which because he was born before partition made him elligible for both NI & ROI, he chose ROI at senior level having played for NI Schoolboys. Whatever about the "gentleman's agreement" between the 4 unions it was well known that NI were in the practice of not going to 2nd generation players so Kerrnaghan wouldn't have been considered.

I thought the distinction between schools & Schoolboys only really applied to Engerland, certainly 20+ years ago there was the Republic of Ireland U15 side which was commonly called "schoolboys" but was the only national side at that age group. I think it's a historic thing in England where the underage structures were all centred around schools, yo uplkayed for your school, then your district (county) then the best players played for England Schools. With the advent of Club acadamey's this has largely become redundant.

Good interview/article on Kerrnaghan here which alludes to his Belfast Roots.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article592152.ece

[tetsujin1979]

there was an article during the week on players from the North who turned out for the Republic: http://soccerrepublic.eircom.net/News/Famous-Five-Irish-players-who-switched-their-allegiance-from-the-North.aspx

Alan Kernaghan
Kernaghan, and his parents, were born in England but he was raised an Ulster Protestant. He had stood on the Windsor Park terrace as a child and cheered on the North to two British Championships and qualification for two World Cup finals. In fact, he was even a ballboy on one occasion when Scotland visited Belfast. Kernaghan was capped six times for the Northern Ireland under-15s but, once he revealed that neither he nor his parents were born in the country, he was told he would no longer be allowed represent the North; the ‘granny rule’ was a non-runner in Northern Ireland at the time. “The door was slammed shut,” he says. “We tried to fight it for five or six years but we had no luck. Then when the chance came to play for the Republic, I jumped at it.” He qualified for the south through his Irish grandparents, and went on to make 22 appearances in the famous green shirt. “I had no problems pulling on the Republic shirt,” he adds. “I was simply furthering my career. There was always a lingering tension on the periphery. Some Republic of Ireland fans and journalists didn't like it. I dealt with it as I deal with it now: it didn't matter to me. The galling thing was two or three weeks after I made my debut for the Republic, [Northern Ireland] changed the [eligibility] rule. Why did it take that long? Why not have done it years before? But they didn’t and in a way I was glad.” Kernaghan later went on to become a coach at Glasgow Rangers, become the first ever Republic of Ireland cap to take employment at the Ibrox club.

[geysir]

I'll try to explain in simple terms. Before the GFA could an Irishman born in the north play for Ireland? Answer, yes.

Shane Duffy's birthplace is what qualifies him, not his fathers.

Fifa Statute 15 refers to nationality, not passports.

The GFA changed things with a subtle but important change. Citizenship to ni born (nibornes) became automatic with birth.
Previous to that it was not automatic, you had the right to Irish citizenship but it was not an automatic right.
People born in NI had to fill in an extra document.

FIFA when reviewing the whole thing around Gibson time, referred to the automatic nature of the citizenship on at least 2 or 3 occasions.
So yes I think the automatic citizenship had a big enough bearing on FIFA when they clarified / rewrote their rule 15.

[Duggie]

IMO any player born in northern ireland is the same as the south. were all irish. i dont care if the IFA are annoyed about it. as far as im concerned were all irish - the one.

[kingdomkerry]

IMO any player born in northern ireland is the same as the south. were all irish. i dont care if the IFA are annoyed about it. as far as im concerned were all irish - the one.

Exactly, well said

[co. down green]

I don't think the good friday agreement made any difference to the eligibility of players from the North representing Ireland at international level, they were always eligible.

Gerard Crossley from Belfast was playing for Ireland at youth level before the agreement was even signed, so it made no differece.

Crossley played at all underage levels for Ireland and also made it into the senior squad for a friendly against Mexico in 99.

[dr_peepee]

Paul Kee, who coached Gibson at Maiden City Soccer, a feeder club for Institute FC, and now manages the Northern Ireland under-17 team, said in December 2009: “We have to basically provide a service from which young players feel they will get something back and hopefully they will have the desire to play for Northern Ireland. It’s an issue we have to keep working at though, although if a young player feels a stronger affinity to the Republic of Ireland then that’s the way it is. Darron and his family made a choice at the time although the circumstances behind it appear to be that he had a chance to go on trial with [Manchester] United and he was then left out of an IFA team as a result. Darron and his parents had to think about his career and they took his talents to the Republic of Ireland.”

From that article in Soccer Republic

That's the line of thinking the IFA should be taking in my opinion. Might prove more productive in the long run than the current sniping at FIFA & FAI.

[Predator]

From that article in Soccer Republic

That's the line of thinking the IFA should be taking in my opinion. Might prove more productive in the long run than the current sniping at FIFA & FAI.
Paul Kee is a good sensible guy. He used to run a coaching 'school' during the summer in Derry.

[dr_peepee]

Paul Kee is a good sensible guy. He used to run a coaching 'school' during the summer in Derry.

Seems to be alright...

Why d'ye have 'School' in inverted coma's though? Makes it look real sinister!!:)

[Predator]

Seems to be alright...

Why d'ye have 'School' in inverted coma's though? Makes it look real sinister!!:)
Ha, it was just like a Soccer School type thing. Was great for kids, but I remember it being fairly expensive. Although I could be mistaken.

[ifk101]

Is that the same Paul Kee who was the NI goalie when we tanked them 4-0 in Windsor back in the mid-90s?

[Predator]

Don't think so, but I could be wrong.

[dantheman]

Is that the same Paul Kee who was the NI goalie when we tanked them 4-0 in Windsor back in the mid-90s?

No different lad. Ironically the other Paul Kee had a very giid game against Austria in the previous match, NI's last significant away win

[geysir]

I don't think the good friday agreement made any difference to the eligibility of players from the North representing Ireland at international level, they were always eligible.

Gerard Crossley from Belfast was playing for Ireland at youth level before the agreement was even signed, so it made no differece.

Crossley played at all underage levels for Ireland and also made it into the senior squad for a friendly against Mexico in 99.
I never said that players were not eligible before the GFA.

IMO the introduction of automatic citizenship into the GFA had a definite bearing on how FIFA reviewed the eligibility issue in 2007/8 after the IFA made their official protest.


.

[Drumcondra 69er]

I don't think the good friday agreement made any difference to the eligibility of players from the North representing Ireland at international level, they were always eligible.

Gerard Crossley from Belfast was playing for Ireland at youth level before the agreement was even signed, so it made no differece.

Crossley played at all underage levels for Ireland and also made it into the senior squad for a friendly against Mexico in 99.

Exactly. As far as I know the gentleman's agreement was originally disbanded at a stage when Nationlists playing for the North were being given significant stick (around the time Lennon's abuse picked up?). The game in 93 at Windsor may have had some bearing in FAI circles. Was Kerr the first underage manager to pick youngsters born in the 6 counties?

As as been said passports were available for all born on the island since independence for the 26 and prior to the GFA a passport was all FIFA required (see Luis Olivera for example, a brazillian with no belgian blood knocking us out in the 98 play off).