Player eligibility row

[boovidge]

Actually it's both. It is currently the anthem of the UK, but it is also and was originally the anthem of England.

England has never had its own national anthem. There is support to introduce one though. http://anthem4england.co.uk/

[Nedser]

England has never had its own national anthem. There is support to introduce one though. http://anthem4england.co.uk/

I was surprised that England has never had its own official anthem considering it was an independent country for about 800 years, but actually I think you're right.

However, my point still holds - GSTK was originally a song in honour of the English monarch rather than British (as it was written long before the creation of the Kingdom of Britain, which later became the UK). It also became established as the UK's national anthem by virtue of it being sung in London theatres in support of the English King George II who was in battle with Bonnie Prince Charlie at the time. Hence the lines added in that era "And like a torrent rush, Rebellious Scots to crush, God save the King". If you're interested, more information officially sanctioned by her majesty here (http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Symbols/NationalAnthem.aspx).

Leaving aside all of that anyway, it's an anthem that at best only about 50-60% of the population of NI identify with, and even then they identify with it in the context of being "British" rather than "Northern Irish".

[boovidge]

When was GSTK first used? Because obviously if it was sung in England before the Union of the Crowns in 1603 then It can be described as an English "anthem". Since then the English and Scottish monarch has been the same. I've looked at wikipedia and it mentions an early version being published in 1745 well after the union of the crowns and 40 years after the Act of Union forming the state of Great Britain. If you have a more reliable source about its origins I'd be interested to see. I always interpreted the "rebellious Scots" bit of GSTK (frequently brought up in English/Scottish/British debates, though it's hardly ever used) to be targetting the rebellious Scots rather than Scots in general, of which many were "non-rebellious" :D

[ifk101]

This comment is in reply to my earlier point, which was as follows.
Namely, the FAI originally sought a "Gentlemens' Agreement" with the IFA to stop the two Associations from picking players from each others jurusdiction.
Then the FAI unilaterally broke the Agreement, for no other reason than self-interest.

Why would the FAI seek and settle for a "Gentleman's Agreement"? Surely, given that they were in conflict with the IFA, they would want to document this agreement rather than just seeking a verbal agreement?

The FIFA intervention in the 1950s was necessary simply because the IFA had joined FIFA and there could not exist a situation where players were choosing which Association they preferred to line-out for on a given day, for a given match. What the FIFA intervention "achieved" was (a) the introduction of the team names "Northern Ireland" and the "Republic of Ireland" (b) the division of the existant pool of international players on the basis of which side of the border they were born (remember there existed players at the time that had played for both associations so to decide which team these individual players would play for from this point on, their place of birth was used) and (c) the confirmation that the IFA was the association for Northern Ireland only (up to now the IFA had been operating as an all island association).

If a gentleman's agreement existed it would have been agreed in conjuction with the FIFA intervention or in the immediate aftermath of this intervention. However the only reference to this agreement is in an IFA commissioned book - so its existence is already in question. Conveniently enough the details of said and supposed agreement are very sketchy. Despite your insistence on the existence of the agreement you do not know basic information details like the date the agreement took place, where the agreement took place, who shook on the agreement etc etc. The only thing you believe to know about the agreement is the outcome. The latest IFA statement regarding FIFA's eligibility statues highlights the IFA's unique and historical lack of competence. That the IFA chose to harp on about Article 16 without bothering to read Article 15 of the eligibility statues is incompetence of the highest order. That the IFA subsequently chose to waste more time and resources (time and resources that could be best served developing players for us) in seeking FIFA to uphold the eligibility statutes is mind-blowing. Your "anger" towards the FAI is ultimately born from an inner realisation of the IFA's incompetence. But it's much more easier to blame somebody else than to accept your own failings.

[endabob1]

The FAI & IFA both have a role to play in getting this ironed out, I'm far from convinced about an AI team, not because I personally have an issue with it but I think there would be many who would, on both sides of the fence. Maybe in the future but I think we’re still a long way from that scenario.
It’s very convenient & rather schoolyard for the IFA to cry foul and run to FIFA saying “the big boys are stealing all our players” without them looking at the reasons behind the moves. Why did Lennon retire early? What effect did that have on underage Catholic players in NI? What can be done from the IFA to stem the tide? Personally I think they have made very little effort and a few simple steps would pave the way, replace GSTQ with Danny Boy (used in the Commonwealth games) or something more unique to NI.
If moving from Windsor isn’t an option anymore (I still think the idea of a multi-sports venue in Belfast is a fantastic solution) they should make more of an effort to reach the Nationalist community, I have friends from NI who would never dream of going to Windsor, but would come to Dublin reguarly for games
Now to the Fai. Stop the scouting of underage players. Stop the approaches to players of nationalist backgrounds with a view to turning their heads.
I have no problem if a kid from Derry or Belfast comes to the Fai and says, I want to play for you. I wouldn’t expect the FAI to turn him away, I would expect them to say okay we’ll consider you for future squads & let the IFA know the score. It’s the active recruiting that upsets NI fans and that’s where the FAI need to reign it in.

[Nedser]

When was GSTK first used? Because obviously if it was sung in England before the Union of the Crowns in 1603 then It can be described as an English "anthem". Since then the English and Scottish monarch has been the same. I've looked at wikipedia and it mentions an early version being published in 1745 well after the union of the crowns and 40 years after the Act of Union forming the state of Great Britain. If you have a more reliable source about its origins I'd be interested to see.

The same Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_Queen)article refers to the "earliest known version by John Bull (1562–1628)". Doesn't really clear up whether that was before or after 1603. Anyway, the two monarchies and countries remained distinct until 1707, it just so happened that the same person held both from 1603 on. Also from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_the_crowns)"The term itself (Union of the Crowns), though now generally accepted, is misleading; for properly speaking this was merely a personal or dynastic union, the Crowns remaining both distinct and separate, despite James's best efforts to create a new "imperial" throne of 'Great Britain'. England and Scotland continued to be independent states".



Cas was not eligible until he became a citizen. NI born are already citizens.

I decided to dig out his book to refresh my memory. He actually played for Ireland for 11 years before he obtained an Irish passport. His exact words about the change of policy in 1996 were "On the eve of the game, we submitted our passports for inspection but were informed by officials of a change in FIFA rules, stipulating that all players had to be citizens of the country for which they had declared. I had always travelled under a British passport ........ If I want to play for Ireland again I'm going to need an Irish passport".

So in addition to common sense dictating that FIFA obviously would ask for proof of eligibility, we have an account of an incident in 1996 from a former player stating that FIFA requires players to produce passports to prove their nationality. I think we can put this to bed now, unless someone wishes to argue that Cascarino made this whole story up.

[dr_peepee]

Hang on, the IFA have engaged with some of these players (particularly Duffy) at great length. The assumption by some on here- that 'by all accounts he felt badly treated' doesn't ring true. Clearly he was very well treated and still refused to play. And let's be honest, there are varying reasons for moving to the RoI side that are well known: English guys wouldn't get in their side, Gibson and McGeady were unhappy at having to give up a club trial for a Scotland or NI representative game and so on. If Duffy never really wanted to play for any NI side, clearly we're well rid before he does a Biggles and sulks off in the middle of the senior qualifiers. More gently, if he was just considering his options we need to press for those options to be changed. It won't force anyone to play, at any level, but it just might save us good players who would otherwise be lost. In practice there will always be players from all backgrounds who see the attraction of playing international football.

And what do you feel was addressed after this engagement with Duffy? Or Gibson? You speak of good players that might otherwise be lost? Through a choice afforded to them. The IFA need to think of it in terms of 'Insulating' themselves from the ruling. That guy Kee has offered the only constructive statements in all of this, in my mind any way. I think the rest is very short sited.

[Paddy Garcia]

This comment is in reply to my earlier point, which was as follows.
Namely, the FAI originally sought a "Gentlemens' Agreement" with the IFA to stop the two Associations from picking players from each others jurusdiction.
Then the FAI unilaterally broke the Agreement, for no other reason than self-interest.
In my book, that is the definition of dishourable behaviour, and nothing* in your post can gainsay that.


The only dishonour is the fact that the FAI stuck with such a "gentlemens agreement" for so long, if indeed such a thing ever existed. At best is seems very loose.

As in all things it is necessary to make trade offs. What is the right decision: Stick with a loose agreement with the IFA or allow Irish men to play for their country, their entitlement ?

Over the years the IFA and their fans have done little to warrent loyalty from the FAI - perhaps in some alternative universe - but not thru the N Irish Vs Ireland games, plus all the other antics I've witnessed over many years.

[dantheman]

As I and many others have frequently pointed out, many NI fans would like to see GSTQ replaced, for a variety of reasons.
However, if you feel that this should be done because it alienates NI Nationalists, are you going to agree to the ROI replacing the Soldier's Song with something "neutral"? For that just as surely alienates NI Unionists.
Unless, of course, the FAI is not actually interested in picking a truly all-Ireland team i.e. Irish Unionists need not apply...
You didn't read the post did you? I said instead of talking hot air about liking to change the anthem, go and do it! I mentioned this on another thread, see below:

http://foot.ie/threads/128265-Norn-Iron-rubbish-part-23452346526?p=1291046&viewfull=1#post1291046

Any word on that meeting GR?

You know the one which might actually help you a lot more than running away to Switzerland...:confused:


Oh FFS!
We have proudly been the Irish Football Association for 130 years now, and aren't going to change that at the behest of some feeble-minded poster on a message board.
There has been little visible in being Irish for quite some time now, don't be silly. Feeble minded eh? What is it with the OWC fans and their reudction to name calling when they get their own way? Especially from Mr "F**k All Integrity". Tut tut tut.


Oh FFS!
Yes, you have to acknowledge. Show some humility, you are not in a good position!


When are you going to accept that there are two international teams in Ireland, only one of which approaches players to play for them irrespective of the player's religion, identity or background.
Only one of them boos their own players based on religion, identity or background.
NI fans calling the FAI sectarian is like the KKK calling the Jackson Five racist...


(And if you're unsure which one this latter is, you might find that eg the emerald green shirts with the Celtic Cross badge and shamrocks a useful clue)
Complete and utter rubbish.
Do you realistically think that the FAI would turn down Johnny Evans if offered? Nope
Do any southern rugby fans care whether Paddy Wallace, Ferris, two-try Tommy Bowe etc are Catholics/ Protestants/Mormons? Nope.

No-one questioned the religion of Houghton/Townsend/anyone who donned the Republic shirt, its not an issue in Dublin. Only up the road! Not in England, Wales and (by and large) Scotland either. Just because you have an issue, doesn't mean other people do. Get out of the trenches!


FAI scouts are regularly seen at NI under-age games, even outside NI. Every single player who is known to have been approached (eg McKenna, Baird, Gibson, Duffy etc) is from the Nationalist community. Indeed, the only NI player from the Unionist community who has represented ROI in the modern era was Alan Kernaghan - and then only because the IFA's Rules prevented us from picking him for us.
That's you own problem. Kernaghan is an example of how the IFA invent their own rules (and morality) as they see fit. Its also an example of how they panic after realising their own ineptitude. Just like now, dear oh dear, how history repeats...


Now I accept that the FAI does not deliberately set out to be sectarian, but the inevitable consequence of their policy must be to lead more closely to a situation whereby one Irish international team is effectively Protestant/Unionist and the other Catholic/Nationalist.
Just contradicted yourself there very quickly. The main reason why there may be a P/U & C/N team would be because ye exclude your nationalist community from your own team. That may turn out to be the inevitable consequence of your own policy. (facepalm)


If that is so, and the FAI is so concerned for their Nationalist fellow-countrymen in NI, how come they never eg protested to FIFA etc on their behalf?
How come they declined to pick such players for around five decades (under the Gentlemens' Agreement)?
Because they probably thought the IFA was run by a bunch of sectarian lunatics, and it was better not to get involved!!

It is not the "English Anthem", it is the anthem of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and far from "bellowing out" around WP, it lasts approx 90 seconds before the game even starts.
GO....AND...CHANGE...IT...;)

Now I'm not saying it should be played (it shouldn't, imo), but it can be no more objectionable to NI Nationalists than eg the playing of the SS is to NI Unionists when the Ireland rugby team plays at Lansdowne.
The IRFU have made a lot of steps to overcome this. Irelands Call was played at Twickenham on Saturday if you noticed. IRFU flags and not tricolours are predominant at matches. The flag of the Ulster branch of the IRFU is flown alongside the tricolour and IRUF flag at Corker/Lansdowne Road. Remember Ulster Rugby is responsible not just for the 6 counties of NI but also the other 3 counties as well. Under your criteria it would be just as inappropriate to fly the NI flag as the tricolour at Ravenhill (which is owned by the IRFU)
Some more needs to be done but, dear oh dear, the IFA have done none of the above :rolleyes: Dear Lord EG you are desperate

Get over it.
Great attitude that. Get over the eligibility rules then!!!

As for the death threat, to this day no-one knows who did it - it was an anonymous phone call, without a recognised codeword, to a newspaper. I do not blame Lennon for taking it seriously, but the IFA and NI fans are no more to be blamed for that than eg Cork County GAA and their fans for the series of threats issued against the manager of their Hurling team.
The death threat was not issued for sectarian reasons, as you well know.

The various views which are expressed on OWC are no more "representative" of the NI team and stadium than this forum is of the ROI team etc.
It is the most popular forum, therefore it certainly more representative than any other

As said to fans of the 'North' many times, just be grateful you even have a team. And why not select the people who actually want to play for them?? Or is that not enough 'control freakery'??
Control freakery comes naturally to those brought up to think the place is theirs and theirs alone.
When they realise they cannot trap the minority (which they gerrymandered artificially), panic sets in and the childish name-calling and strops ensue

Eventually it will be a choice between an AI or AB team. What would prefer, besides an accident of history to date?
Bring on an all-UK team I say! Lets wrap this up once and for all. The NI fans can head to London, and we can get some peace...

As a matter of interest, what is your definition of "country"? According to the GFA, Darron Gibson , Jonny Evans, and anyone esle born in NI are entitled to British and/or Irish nationality, but not "Northern Irish" nationality, as there is no such thing. There is nothing ironic in saying that people born in NI should have to choose between a national team that represents one of the two nationalities that they are entitled to: Ireland or the United Kingdom.
NI fans call the UK a country or NI a country interchangely depending on their argument. Recently they have started calling themselves Irish to twist an eligibility ruling. Interesting if they are Irish why the would be reduced to insulting 80%+ of their own fellow countrymen/beggars/gypsies...

Actually it's both. It is currently the anthem of the UK, but it is also and was originally the anthem of England. In the same way that London is the capital of England and the UK. That doesn't mean NI should play their home games in London though, does it? GSTQ includes a verse about crushing the Scots, so it was hardly intended to be an all inclusive anthem that everyone in the UK could identify with. And let's not pretend that anyone outside England ever got a say in what the anthem of the UK should be. This is kind of the crux of why one half of the community in NI (and large parts of the community in Scotland and Wales) don't particularly like GSTQ.
Realistically GSTQ is the anthem of both (see Twickenham on Saturday). Its is less contentious in both Scotland & Wales, but is played in neither. Any NI fans on here wish to explain once more what the plan is regarding anthems ie dates/suggestions?

You can't have it both ways - either NI is a "country" and therefore it should have its own anthem, or it's a region within the UK, in which case it shouldn't have an international football team in the first place.
Its also Ireland (a la carte) when you trying to interpret the rules to stop the RCs from escaping to "beggarland"!

Yeah I got that, but my point is that the whole basis of Unionism on this island is that they want their country to be the UK, not Northern Ireland (or Ireland). I assume that's still the general position held by non-nationalists in the North, in which case establishing an all Ireland team would not in any way prevent them from representing their country. The only thing that stops them from representing their country is that their country does not currently field a team!
The existence of the NI team is in a much more dubious state than the allowance of any Irish-born person to represent Ireland. The IFA would need to watch themselves...

[EalingGreen]

In terms of the recruiting part - as long as the FAI is not making the first contact to a player who is currently playing for another country I have no problem, as long as the player or his proxy makes the first contact there can be no argument given the current rules. I especially welcome players who were born and raised in NI.
There is no shortage of evidence of players, already in the NI set-up, being approached. Without exception, these appear to have been from the Nationalist community
only. Known FAI scouts are frequently seen at NI under-age games, with their video cameras etc, sometimes even outside NI.
Considering these games include friendlies, or competitions in which the ROI are not involved (therefore not going to meet at some later stage), what other reason could these scouts have for being there, other than to run the eye over possible recruits?



The IFA can feel aggrieved but it's part and parcel of international sport these days.So are crucial Handballs/Refereeing mistakes. :rolleyes:
However, whilst human error is largely unavoidable, other grievances are "man-made" and so can be reversed.



If Shane Duffy or Darron Gibson are fulfilling an ambition to play for ROI why would the IFA want to stand in their way?
Er, because we feel that players born within our jurisdiction, on whom we have spent time, effort and money developing, ought not to be permitted to play for another Association without their also meeting the usual ancestry/residence criteria demanded of (every?) other Member Associations of FIFA worldwide.
Representing a country in international football is not a matter of choice; it cannot be, since it is essentially based on where a player (or his parents/grandparents) are born - something which self-evidently cannot be "chosen" by anyone! Instead, it is a matter of Eligibility.
To take a non-politically charged example, Andrew Driver wants to represent Scotland, he "feels" Scottish and lives and has plied his trade in Scotland for years. Moreover, the country of his birth (England), has no particular objection to his playing for Scotland. Yet he is ineligible to represent them under the four Home Associations' application of the eligibility criteria.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1250620/Andrew-Drivers-Scotland-dream-tatters-Hearts-winger-play-adopted-country.html
The problem in the NI/ROI context, however, is that a politically-motivated gesture by the Irish Government (i.e. the automatic right to a Passport granted to anyone born in NI) is being used anachronistically by the FAI to exploit a loophole in the application of the Eligibility requirements by FIFA.



It's also odd that they're reportedly going the legal route once more while at the same time acknowledging that Duffy is fully qualified and entitled to represent the ROI. Didn't they go the legal route last year when Gibson made his move, what has changed?
Everyone accepts that Duffy is entitled, via his Da, to play for ROI. However, the reason why this has flared up again is twofold. First, we have invested an enormous amount of capital in Duffy, who to all appearances was (at least) relatively happy to play for us. However, he looks to have had his head turned at a very late stage by a high-level intervention by the FAI/Brady. Such an intervention is "raising the stakes", regardless of his ancestral eligibility.
Second, as many as five(?) members of a current ROI under-age squad are NI-born. Quite honestly, we could have coped with the odd Saul Deeney or Henry McStay in the past, for the sake of good relations (if nothing else). But this now risks getting way too serious to ignore.



Given the political and historical situation FIFA cannot be allowed to deny any person born in NI the right to play for the ROI regardless of whether or not their parents or grandparents were born on the Island pre-partition. I suppose they could put in a clause that says children of immigrants from outside the island of Ireland wouldn't be qualified to play for ROI, I'm not sure if that is a gray area of not.
Disagree fundamentally, for two reasons.
First, FIFA has always abrogated to itself the complete right not to be influenced by Governments or other political bodies. That is why, for instance, it recognises 208 "countries" (Member Associations), when the United Nations only lists 192 Members. So that when eg Qatar conferred perfectly legal citizenship on a number of Brazilians so as to make them available to play football for them, FIFA rushed in a Rule that unless one has citizenship by birthright, then players must also meet additional eligibility criteria, such as ancestry or residence to play for their new country.
Such a measure was effective in suppressing any future moves by other countries; however, the application/interpretation of the new arrangement failed to take account of the (unique?) situation in Ireland, whereby the ROI automatically offers a Passport at birth to a group of people born outwith their own jurisdiction, for essentially political reasons.
Consequently, the IFA is getting "screwed" for the sake of other countries politics.
The second objection is that like it or not, Ireland has two international football Associations/teams, recognised by FIFA. Each Association/team should be accorded equal respect as regards jurisdiction etc.
However, one of these Associations (IFA) is being disadvantaged by the other Association exploiting an anachronism in the laws of its own Government in Dublin - an anachronism which does not work the other way and about which the IFA can do nothing. Worse still, this Passport-at-Birth was introduced by Dublin long before FIFA needed any such Eligibility criteria, and for reasons which had absolutely nothing to do with football.



In fairness to the FAI they made no issue of Shane Lowry & Paul Marshall leaving.
Not sure of the details of either player, but we (IFA) have not sought to exploit their situation either for our own ends, or at the expense of a neighbouring Association. In fact, we have not interfered in either case, by word or deed.



Also this talk about investing resources in player development is pretty much a lot of pish. The real development is done by the clubs, not the odd get together at international level.
Balls! Gibson was developed first by Institute FC (IFA member club) and as for Duffy, here is what his father had to say as recently as three weeks ago, on OWC:
"one thing is for sure there is no way shane would be were he is todayif it was not for n/ireland.from paddy mcgongle in the milk cup to dessie currie in the victory shield then paul kee u/17s to steve beadlehole u/19s 21s and nigal himself shane has so much respect for all these men any rightfull so all topmen,shane loves to play for n/ireland and always has done"



And Duffy is 18, how many 18 yr old prospects have actually gone on to be as good as people forecast. Is JOSH really the new Paul McGrath? Duffy could be playing League 1 in a couple of seasons, or injury could end it at any time.
Of course he might not make it. But considering that the FAI are rolling out the red carpet for him eg by inviting him and his family to be guests of honour at the Emirates tomorrow night etc, it seems they think he's got a great chance.



But it's like an employee choosing to go work somewhere else you have to respect their decision and wish them the best of luck, sport and even international sport today is a business, it's a career not just an honour.
If it just a "business" matter, why bother to have eligibility criteria in the first place?
Why not just let players represent whichever country they like?
Hell, we could have a transfer market between countries; that way, for the money we would receive from England for Jonny Evans, we could afford to "buy back" Gibson and Duffy and still have money left over...:rolleyes:

[EalingGreen]

Deleted

[Newryrep]

............................So nobody knows what CAS arbitrate on then

[dantheman]

Everyone accepts that Duffy is entitled, via his Da, to play for ROI. However, the reason why this has flared up again is twofold. First, we have invested an enormous amount of capital in Duffy, who to all appearances was (at least) relatively happy to play for us.

EG you are a well articulated, but somewhat deluded, poster. How much money? Figures please


However, he looks to have had his head turned at a very late stage by a high-level intervention by the FAI/Brady.
Not according to his father


Such an intervention is "raising the stakes", regardless of his ancestral eligibility.
Only to deluded Unionists in the north, harking back for the days of the sealed border


Second, as many as five(?) members of a current ROI under-age squad are NI-born. Quite honestly, we could have coped with the odd Saul Deeney or Henry McStay in the past, for the sake of good relations (if nothing else). But this now risks getting way too serious to ignore.
Why don't you deal with good relations in your own jurisdiction before lecturing others? You are still ignoring the aspirations of nearly half the people of your own part of the island.

You have done nothing to begin to address the root cause, the behaviour of your own association & fans.

Lead by example. Remember the problem is the IFA's and the IFA's alone! If you wish to make friends and influence people, you have a lot to learn!!

[EalingGreen]

The closest you get is when players are required to prove their identity, not their nationality, to the match delegate as per match regulations. FIFA require a passport for this purpose. However, that does not need to be the passport relating to the particular country you are playing for as confirmed by FIFA in 2006 following the Irish Governments intervention when the IFA tried to force NI players to carry British Passports.
The only time a player/association may be required to prove nationality is if an opposing team challenge the eligibity of a player following a game.Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

In fact, you could not be more wrong if you tried*.

Do not make me go back into the Archives, but I trust my memory (on this topic, at least) to be able to put the record straight.

Basically, a problem originally arose in an underage tournament in europe (Germany?), not involving either NI or ROI. At such tournaments, players have to produce their Passport as evidence of identity - essentially to prevent "ringers" or over-age players etc.

However, one kid who had dual nationality presented his "wrong" Passport, which caused an officious Match Commissioner (incorrectly) to query his identity/eligibility.

Consequently, in an effort to avoid future confusion, FIFA sent out one of their regular Circulars to all their Members directing that players must produce the Passport of the country they are representing. Upon receiving their copy, someone at the IFA immediately realised that this would cause severe problems for many of our players.

And in an unusally swift move (by their usual glacial standards), they contacted FIFA as a matter of urgency, and received an explicit dispensation that NI players could produce either a UK or an ROI Passport, entirely as they wished.

From what I recall, the entire process from Circular to Dispensation took less than 96 hours. Unfortunately, however, that was sufficient time for the issue to get into the public domain, wherein certain politicians both in the Dail (Ahern?) and in Stormont (Pat Ramsey) seized the opportunity to make malicious political capital in their customary "outraged", but misplaced tone.

Indeed, even after the IFA had received their communication from FIFA, these same politicians were still attempting to claim the "credit", despite the sum total of their efforts amounting to little more than a few newspaper headlines and an instruction to the Irish Ambassador to Switzerland to "sort it out" etc. (On this latter, the issue was resolved, by letter, before anyone from the Embassy even got to arrange a meeting with FIFA!).

The phrase "pigs" and "grunts" springs to mind - especially wrt the porcine-proportioned Ramsey.

Anyhow, the situation remained unchanged from that which had always obtained from 1921: namely, as far as the IFA is concerned, NI players may travel/play on a UK Passport, an Irish Passport, another Passport entirely, or some combination of the three.

Or are we to add this "IFA demands British Passports" myth to the already long list of canards about our team, which (presumably) are dreamed up by our detractors to tarnish our name and/or justify their own prejudices?


* - You're not trying, are you?

[EalingGreen]

Except with the exception of Paul Butler (ex-Wolves, Leeds, Oldham), who qualified by marriage, no-one who's not eligible for a passport (or team) via the usual family links has ever played for Ireland, AFAIK. Unlike a Herr.M.Taylor.....

Butler was, as you say, an isolated exception. Maik Taylor was also an isolated exception. However, since the latter's debut, the IFA haved moved with the other three "Home" Associations to close the loophole whereby Big Maik qualified for us, so his case could not be repeated, even if we, or a player, wanted.
Does the same disbarment now apply to any future Paul Butlers?

P.S. Your may think your snide reference to "Herr Taylor" is clever. However, he qualified for a UK Passport by virtue of his British father, who happened to be stationed in Germany as a soldier at the time of Maik's birth. Further, Maik himself served in the British Army for a period before leaving to take up football full-time. Therefore, his authenticity as a citizen of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and (ahem) Northern Ireland", rather than the Federal Republic of Germany, cannot be in any doubt.


And virtually no-one in Ireland refers to it, except in the occasional misguided sporting context , as The 'Republic', FFS.According to FIFA, the official name of the international football team is "Republic of Ireland":
http://www.fifa.com/associations/association=irl/ranking/gender=m/index.html
And I think you'll even find these people use that designation from time-to-time, though not on every occasion, as mandated by FIFA:
http://www.fai.ie/

[EalingGreen]

1. These are Irish men wanting to play for Ireland! They have as much right as anyone in Donegal, Dublin or Dingle to play for THEIR country. Have people from the south of the country really developed such a "Free State mindset" these days?
Aye and they have as much right eg to an education in the South, or dole money, or a Pension, or Healthcare, or to elect or reject the Government in the South etc etc etc.
No difference in their citizenship at all, I'd say...




2. The Northern Ireland say they want to keep these players but they do nothing what so ever accommodate them - infact they have done the opposite - they introduce blue highlights to there home shirt, the continue to use the Ulster Banner flag as "their flag" despite it being a symbol of Loyalism in the six counties and they continue to sing God Save the Queen prior to games!!
Oh ffs! Or are you really saying that the IFA introduced blue trim on their shirts to p1ss off Nationalists? I've heard some crap in my time, but that takes the biscuit.
FYI, (St. Patrick's) Blue has been associated with the IFA at least as long as (Emerald) Green. Indeed, Irish/Northern Irish teams traditionally used to play in blue shirts, until they decided to switch to green, in order to avoid clashing with their regular opponents, Scotland (around 1930?).
As for the flag, we originally used the official flag of NI, before switching to the NI flag (UB). Now that the NI flag no longer has official status (since 1972), would you prefer that we revert to the Union flag?
As for the anthem, I know that many NI fans, including myself, would like to see it replaced. By contrast, none of us would like to see our emerald green shirts replaced, still less the Celtic Cross, with shamrocks, which proudly adorns the shirt. Maybe because such overtly British symbolism also p1sses off our Nationalist neighbours?



As long as they want to play for us they should be welcomed and encouraged.
If they IFA want to continue likes its a "Protestant country for a Protestant people" then who can blame these kids??You really don't have a clue, do you?
This whole dispute is over the IFA wanting to pick players from a Catholic/Nationalist background. If we only wanted a "Protestant" [sic] team, we wouldn't care about the likes of Gibson or Duffy playing for another team.
By contrast, the FAI, which proclaims it is open to ALL people born on the island nonetheless only approaches players in NI who are from a Nationalist/Catholic background.
And we are the ones who are dubbed "sectarian".
Jeez, you couldn't make it up...

[ifk101]

By contrast, the FAI, which proclaims it is open to ALL people born on the island nonetheless only approaches players in NI who are from a Nationalist/Catholic background.

Evidence please.


And we are the ones who are dubbed "sectarian".
Jeez, you couldn't make it up...

Provide evidence for the highlighted quote above and let the rest of us make our own judgements based on that evidence.

[EalingGreen]

and even Mr Parker mentioned that FIFA were trying to insist the NI players hold British passports a few years ago.Wrong! Without even considering the implications for the Irish situation, FIFA merely required that players with Dual Nationality should present the Passport of the country they were representing when requested i.e. as an administrative convenience.
When the IFA saw this, they immediately moved to gain dispensation for those of our players who do not possess/want a UK Passport (see my post #214, above).

[EalingGreen]

Re the passport id thing, either FIFA gave out the instruction that the player must produce the passport of the team he is playing for, or the IFA instructed (or both) that their players must have a UK passport. Either way FIFA adjusted to the Irish situation to accept that a player can have the "wrong" passport and still be fully eligible.
It was FIFA who requested it, the IFA didn't want such an instruction in any shape or form (see my post #214)



Either way FIFA adjusted to the Irish situation
Indeed, but only following a submission by the IFA (alone), who did not want to see any of their players forced to acquire a UK Passport against their will.

[EalingGreen]

It is time to return to one team representing the Island of Ireland.Then you shouldn't have broken away in the first place.

But I daresay if you apply to be readmitted to the IFA, such application will be treated with all the merit it deserves...


We do not have all this aggro with the Rugby team as to who plays for who.
Then why not go off and be a rugby fan, then? Personally, I couldn't care less what they do in other sports - and I say that as someone who was at Twickenham on Saturday!



With one team representing Ireland all this aggro about who plays for who will go away.In common with my fellow NI fans, I no more want an all-Ireland team than I want eg an all-UK one. As "Northern Ireland", we have proudly existed for nearly 90 years, and as "Ireland" for 40 years before that.

As an ROI fan, you might be happy to see your team disappear*, but we have far too much self-respect and pride in our team to see ours cease to exist - "IFA - Original and (George) Best!"

* - Unless, of course, you actually are demanding that our team be disbanded, to merely be annexed by yours? Surely not?

[Predator]

You really don't have a clue, do you?
This whole dispute is over the IFA wanting to pick players from a Catholic/Nationalist background. If we only wanted a "Protestant" [sic] team, we wouldn't care about the likes of Gibson or Duffy playing for another team.
By contrast, the FAI, which proclaims it is open to ALL people born on the island nonetheless only approaches players in NI who are from a Nationalist/Catholic background.
And we are the ones who are dubbed "sectarian".
Jeez, you couldn't make it up...
EG, are you suggesting that the FAI are actively sectarian in their selection policy, because they select players who actually want to play for them? If so, can you substantiate that? How many people from a Unionist/Protestant background do you know that would like to play for ROI instead of NI?

Hypothetically speaking, were you a talented footballer (you possibly were/are for all I know!), would you express an interest in playing for the FAI by attending in a training camp and/or contacting them about a trial or changing (things which Duffy, the McEleney brothers, Daniel Kearns and Daniel Devine have all recently done)?

I feel that despite the FAI's ability to select players born in the north, the root of the problem remains the image of the IFA and the Northern Ireland team (and perhaps moreso the actual socio-political climate of the north). If the Northern Ireland team was such that young players from a nationalist background grew up supporting and dreaming of playing for them, then naturally, we'd see less players with a preference to play for ROI.

[EalingGreen]

I stated that it was the IFA who tried to insist on British Passports. It was FIFA's intervention at the request of the Irish Government that clarified the situation.And you were copmpletely wrong, on both counts - spectacularly so, in fact! (See my post #214)

[Paddy Garcia]

Deleted

Last edited by EalingGreen; 01/03/2010 at 3:08 PM. Reason: Duplication

Ay, duplicated from a post you made last year. One of those telling us to wait for an imminent intervention (that time FIFA) preventing those in N Ireland playing for Ireland. It did not happen then & it won't happen now.


To your point about the FAI only approaching catholic players, do you really think this is sectarian?

Either we are mercenaries or we aren't - you can't have it both ways. Actually we don't care what their religion is. If they want to play for us, are any good and entitled to then why would we not have them!

Re developing players - you are doing the very same thing today with lads from England - wake up!

[kingdomkerry]

I think the days of northern catholics/nationalists playing for NI are gone (there will be exceptions). If the IFA want to change this they should 1. Bring in a neutral anthem that is acceptable to everone in the six counties, develop a new flag for NI which is acceptable to all in the 6 counties, ban GSTQ, ban unionist flags, develop a stadium in a non loyalist area or 2. support an All Ireland team or 3. leave things the way they are and you will have a situation where we have a UI team "Ireland" and a loyalist team "Little Rangers/NI". Its their pick.

Comparing the anthem situation with the rugby is ridiculous. If you take the Irish anthem it is accepted by all in the 26 counties, where as english anthem is not accepted by close to half in the 6 counties and nobody in the 26 and righly so after what was done to our country by the britsh/english government.

[dantheman]

As for the anthem, I know that many NI fans, including myself, would like to see it replaced.

Groundhog day....
I see you have ignored this question many, many times. IT WILL NOT GO AWAY.

How many times have we heard this? That you like the idea of changing it?
And what is being done about it? Nothing!

What are you doing about it Ealing Green?
What are the IFA doing about it?
What are the fans doing about it?

Nada.

Do us all a favour and save us the hot air until you come back with action on the ground.
For Christ sake act like men and put your money where your mouth is.

You all know its a major issue. Why the paralysis?

Afraid of change?
Afraid its the slippery slope to eternal damnation?

Insecure about your identity? ;)
Hmmm...maybe that's it:rolleyes:

Jeez, you couldn't make it up...:cool:

[dantheman]

I think the days of northern catholics/nationalists playing for NI are gone (there will be exceptions). If the IFA want to change this they should 1. Bring in a neutral anthem that is acceptable to everone in the six counties, develop a new flag for NI which is acceptable to all in the 6 counties, ban GSTQ, ban unionist flags, develop a stadium in a non loyalist area or 2. support an All Ireland team or 3. leave things the way they are and you will have a situation where we have a UI team "Ireland" and a loyalist team "Little Rangers/NI". Its their pick.

Comparing the anthem situation with the rugby is ridiculous. If you take the Irish anthem it is accepted by all in the 26 counties, where as english anthem is not accepted by close to half in the 6 counties and nobody in the 26 and righly so after what was done to our country by the britsh/english government.

With reference to point 3:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/dundee-united/2009/03/03/dundee-united-ace-warren-feeney-in-wind-up-call-over-artur-boruc-86908-21167580/

I think in reality the OWC fans want:

3. leave things the way they are and you will have a situation where we have a UI team "Ireland" and a loyalist team "Little Rangers/NI". But as well force northern nationalists to play for NI and stand under the Union Jack while GSTQ and no Surrender.

It's such a simple explanation. I just wish they would come out and say it outright. Just for closure. Then we can get on with building a stronger ROI squad and setup, while NI sulks in the corner, trapped by its own cage of sectarianism.

Furthermore the OWC fans can either be given the option:

-stop whinging when players defect or
-let the FAI into the north to train these kids properly (my preferred option)



Feel free to come back to us with the bill for Shane Duffy there Ealing Green. We needs receipts and stuff like that. We'll have a whip round. In your own time....;):D;)

[Newryrep]

Groundhog day....
I see you have ignored this question many, many times. IT WILL NOT GO AWAY.

How many times have we heard this? That you like the idea of changing it?
And what is being done about it? Nothing!

What are you doing about it Ealing Green?
What are the IFA doing about it?
What are the fans doing about it?

Nada.

Do us all a favour and save us the hot air until you come back with action on the ground.
For Christ sake act like men and put your money where your mouth is.

You all know its a major issue. Why the paralysis?

Afraid of change?
Afraid its the slippery slope to eternal damnation?

Insecure about your identity? ;)
Hmmm...maybe that's it:rolleyes:

Jeez, you couldn't make it up...:cool:

The anthem/flag/location of the ground is NOT the issue and I wish people would be a bit more honest. Quite frankly there is NOTHING the IFA can do that would make me give my allegience to Northern Ireland/any northern Ireland team so using it as a stick to beat NI supporters is a bit rich

[EalingGreen]

NI simply cannot compell players to play for them against their willJeez, you really don't get it, do you?
We are not trying to "compell" [sic] players to play for us, any more than the FAI can compel players to play for them - or have you forgotten about eg Stephen Ireland already?
Rather, we are seeking to have the Rules applied/adapted, such that players from NI cannot opt to play for another team in circumstances which only detrimentally affect us and not any of the other 206 Members of FIFA.

Quite honestly, if we risked losing players to any other Association in the same way, we would be equally concerned.


Of course the idea of an All Ireland team may seem equally unpalatable to some Northern Unionists,Wrong! The abolition of our team is "unpalatable" (unacceptable, in fact) to NI fans, not "Northern Unionists". When I first started supporting the team, I did not even know what politics were and in the 40 years since, I have not cared. Quite simply, football is my sport, the Northern Ireland team represents me and the wee bit of land where I was born and brought up, and I'll be fcuked if I'll let anyone take that away from me without protest, especially by those whose motivation seems primarily political, rather than sporting.


The Irish football team (like the Rugby team) would not be representing any specific political or national jurisdiction. It should be neutral and inclusive of both states, in a way that the NI team has failed to establish a neutrality / inclusiveness with respect to its constituent traditions.

I don't give a stuff what the Ireland rugby team does (or some imaginary all-Ireland team of yours, for that matter).
On Wednesday I shall be decked out in green and white in Tirana, cheering on a team made up of Protestant, Catholic and neither. And if we can manage a victory, I honestly couldn't give a stuff whether the winner comes eg from Steven Davis of Rangers, or Wee Niall McGinn of Celtic - each is equally treasured by all the fans of our team.


We need to diffuse the increasingly ugly and sectarian edge to international football in Ireland. What depresses me more than anything is the way that both national jersey's are being worn in the North as emblems of political and sectarian affiliation.

Well how about this for a way of changing that? The IFA can go on selecting players from all communities within its jurisdiction and the FAI can go on selecting from all within its own.

That seems to me to be a better way of achieving the goal you seek, than the present, whereby the FAI is offering an opt-out to one community within NI only, thereby leaving the IFA to choose from the Unionist community and a (further) diminished Nationalist pool of players...


I know from previous threads that this will provoke EG and GR into apoplectic rage, but after GFF we need to be pragmatic and imaginative in the way that tradiitions are recognised in Ireland and spaces created where traditional loyalties and animosities can be broken down.The GFF (GFA?) was a political arrangement, negotiated and signed by politicians, with no reference to international football whatever, nor any involvement by football folk, either.

Why should that have any bearing on how FIFA organises international football, especially when the situation whereby the FAI seeks to select NI-born players actually dates back at least to 1931 (1921, in truth), at which time they first selected Enniskillener Harry Chatton i.e. i.e. nearly 70 years before the GFA was even thought of?

And we're the ones accused of introducing politics into Irish football?

(Btw, no "apoplexy" on my part, or GR's, merely frustration that people like you cannot seem to get it into your head that we simply do not want to see the international team we have supported all our lives disappear completely, by being merged or subsumed into some other construct, whether that be an all-Ireland team, an all-UK team, or an all-Any Other Fcuking team...




Of course NI's existence is guaranteed under GFF (so long as a majority up there want it) and that should entitle them to a national football team, but life and relationships are more complicated than that. The fact that Unionism has established the legitimacy of its political position, might actually be an argument in favour of a bit of give in the area of sport, especially as the current position is in danger of proving unsustainable.How patronising is that? That we should be entitled to a football team at the whim of a gruesome bunch of "Mullahs and Warlords" at Stormont etc?

The fact is, our team has existed proudly for 130 years, during which time it has survived two World Wars, Civil War, secession by 3/4 of its territory, the Great Depression, 30 years of Civil Unrest and five years of Sammy McIlroy's management.

As you may have gathered, we are none of us too chuffed at the latest threat posed by the FAI trying to cherry-pick NI-born players - even if it is only from one of the two main communities in NI.

But whatever the outcome, you can be certain that we will survive this latest assault and will be no less proud of our team for all that.

[SkStu]

Then why not go off and be a rugby fan, then? Personally, I couldn't care less what they do in other sports - and I say that as someone who was at Twickenham on Saturday!


EG at Twickers on Saturday,,,, ;)

http://v4.sportnetwork.net/mainadmin/img/2451080154895.jpg

[greendeiseboy]

Lads, scroll down to the "similar threads section" at the bottom of the page - the 2nd item

http://foot.ie/threads/29784-Ladies-How-to-stop-your-man-from-straying

Says it all

[Paddy Garcia]

Well how about this for a way of changing that? The IFA can go on selecting players from all communities within its jurisdiction and the FAI can go on selecting from all within its own.

That seems to me to be a better way of achieving the goal you seek, than the present, whereby the FAI is offering an opt-out to one community within NI only, thereby leaving the IFA to choose from the Unionist community and a (further) diminished Nationalist pool of players...


I appreciate that you are trying really hard to post credible thoughts, but you are missing the point.

The FAI is selecting players from 32 counties & all are entitled to play for us, defacto its jurisdiction.:D

No-one in NI is excluded, whoever wants to come can regardless of creed.

[geysir]

I decided to dig out his book to refresh my memory. He actually played for Ireland for 11 years before he obtained an Irish passport. His exact words about the change of policy in 1996 were "On the eve of the game, we submitted our passports for inspection but were informed by officials of a change in FIFA rules, stipulating that all players had to be citizens of the country for which they had declared. I had always travelled under a British passport ........ If I want to play for Ireland again I'm going to need an Irish passport".

So in addition to common sense dictating that FIFA obviously would ask for proof of eligibility, we have an account of an incident in 1996 from a former player stating that FIFA requires players to produce passports to prove their nationality. I think we can put this to bed now, unless someone wishes to argue that Cascarino made this whole story up.
That info does not make the slightest bit of difference.
It's not that you are way off, you just need to grasp the last bits.
I don't know why you are digging into the past as
FIFA´s requirements of proof for players having acquired another nationality, guidelines to match refs before the game, even FIFA´s own understanding of what constitutes evidence, goes through a process of change/update over the years.

Do you clearly understand that ONLY a British national can play for Northern Ireland? Yet the referee for NI games accepts Irish passports as the only proof of identity for some NI players. Where does that fit into your thinking? There is no special guideline written down for Refs in the FIFA guidelines for match officials telling refs to make an exception for NI players.
The guidelines for match officials at an international game are passports and only passports are the definite proof of identity. All relevant details are checked and noted.
For one and a big one, if there is an objection to a player's eligibility, the FIFA official is one of the witness to the documents the player presented.

[Mr_Parker]

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

In fact, you could not be more wrong if you tried*.

Do not make me go back into the Archives, but I trust my memory (on this topic, at least) to be able to put the record straight.

Basically, a problem originally arose in an underage tournament in europe (Germany?), not involving either NI or ROI. At such tournaments, players have to produce their Passport as evidence of identity - essentially to prevent "ringers" or over-age players etc.

However, one kid who had dual nationality presented his "wrong" Passport, which caused an officious Match Commissioner (incorrectly) to query his identity/eligibility.

Consequently, in an effort to avoid future confusion, FIFA sent out one of their regular Circulars to all their Members directing that players must produce the Passport of the country they are representing. Upon receiving their copy, someone at the IFA immediately realised that this would cause severe problems for many of our players.

And in an unusally swift move (by their usual glacial standards), they contacted FIFA as a matter of urgency, and received an explicit dispensation that NI players could produce either a UK or an ROI Passport, entirely as they wished.

From what I recall, the entire process from Circular to Dispensation took less than 96 hours. Unfortunately, however, that was sufficient time for the issue to get into the public domain, wherein certain politicians both in the Dail (Ahern?) and in Stormont (Pat Ramsey) seized the opportunity to make malicious political capital in their customary "outraged", but misplaced tone.

Indeed, even after the IFA had received their communication from FIFA, these same politicians were still attempting to claim the "credit", despite the sum total of their efforts amounting to little more than a few newspaper headlines and an instruction to the Irish Ambassador to Switzerland to "sort it out" etc. (On this latter, the issue was resolved, by letter, before anyone from the Embassy even got to arrange a meeting with FIFA!).

The phrase "pigs" and "grunts" springs to mind - especially wrt the porcine-proportioned Ramsey.

Anyhow, the situation remained unchanged from that which had always obtained from 1921: namely, as far as the IFA is concerned, NI players may travel/play on a UK Passport, an Irish Passport, another Passport entirely, or some combination of the three.

Or are we to add this "IFA demands British Passports" myth to the already long list of canards about our team, which (presumably) are dreamed up by our detractors to tarnish our name and/or justify their own prejudices?


* - You're not trying, are you?

I'll stand corrected for now....

[Mr_Parker]

There is no shortage of evidence of players, already in the NI set-up, being approached.

Hopefully you are not refering to the same ones stated on Wikipedia for example?

[Mr_Parker]

I'll stand corrected for now....

EG can you help with a Circular number as I have checked all from that period and have found nothing. Also in the 96 hour turnaround period on this by the IFA that you stated, so far it would seem that it raised its head in March 2006 and was not resolved until June of that year. Maybe you could dig out your old links?

From my memory, it all kicked of when the IFA wrote to NI players telling them that they could only bring British Passports with them. This was done of the IFA's own bat and their 'misunderstanding' of the topic was based on wrong assumptions they made as confirmed by statements made by Boyce at the time. Following a player going to the press about it a story appeared in a paper and only then did the IFA seek back up to their stance from FIFA. It was only after their own rules where pointed out to FIFA by the Irish governement was the matter clarified. The IFA in the aftermanth then spun it to claim it was their work that achieved it.

[Declanus]

Athletes from other codes, rowing, hockey, boxing,rugby can compete for Ireland. Football shouldn't be any different even if we have two teams Republic and Northern Ireland. It should be an individual choice.

Any idea when the fixtures for Euro 2012 are being arranged ?

[geysir]

I'll stand corrected for now....


Ealing Green's account is a rather creative version which also flies in the face of reported timelined facts.
Aherne is credited as being the first politician to react to the FIFA requirement that NI players have to present a UK passport.
Two IFA honchos had only stated compliance to the FIFA requirement as evidenced by March 22 2006 'IFA international teams affairs official David Currie said the IFA wanted players to have British passports "to make travelling easier". "Its an administrative issue, not a political one" he said' and also Howard Wells was summarised by the BBC 27 March as saying 'having British papers made life simpler for Northern Ireland teams playing away from home'.
Aherne wrote his letter of protest to FIFA and a copy was sent to the IFA on March 27. Incredibly the IFA had not made any official statement on the matter at that time.
Wells apparently was sufficiently moved to ask FIFA for a clarification.
God knows what that request for clarification contained as Well´s stated reasoning at that time was pure waffle on top of waffle.
Anyone who thinks the IFA lobbied successfully for change considering their absolute ineptitude in these matters and their almost total ignorance of the rules of eligibility and nationality, is living in some cloud cuckoo land.

In May 2006, FIFA rejected Aherne's letter and replied to clarify the matter for the IFA. The Belfast Telegraph curiously reported
"Now FIFA have confirmed 100 per cent that the IFA were right and that a player wishing to play in a competitive match must hold a UK passport."

After that Fifa ruling in May, Aherne sent the Irish ambassador to Switzerland (an experienced diplomat called Joe Lynch) to discuss the matter with the FIFA legal head Herrera.
Aherne had the news that FIFA changed their minds a few days before the IFA made a statement on their website to that effect.

Who knows what happened to change FIFA's mind after May 26, certainly not through the feeble efforts of the IFA.

[Mr_Parker]

Ealing Green's account is a rather creative version which also flies in the face of reported timelined facts.
Aherne is credited as being the first politician to react to the FIFA requirement that NI players have to present a UK passport.
Two IFA honchos had only stated compliance to the FIFA requirement as evidenced by March 22 2006 'IFA international teams affairs official David Currie said the IFA wanted players to have British passports "to make travelling easier". "Its an administrative issue, not a political one" he said' and also Howard Wells was summarised by the BBC 27 March as saying 'having British papers made life simpler for Northern Ireland teams playing away from home'.
Aherne wrote his letter of protest to FIFA and a copy was sent to the IFA on March 27. Incredibly the IFA had not made any official statement on the matter at that time.
Wells apparently was sufficiently moved to ask FIFA for a clarification.
God knows what that request for clarification contained as Well´s stated reasoning at that time was pure waffle on top of waffle.
Anyone who thinks the IFA lobbied successfully for change considering their absolute ineptitude in these matters and their almost total ignorance of the rules of eligibility and nationality, is living in some cloud cuckoo land.

In May 2006, FIFA rejected Aherne's letter and replied to clarify the matter for the IFA. The Belfast Telegraph curiously reported
"Now FIFA have confirmed 100 per cent that the IFA were right and that a player wishing to play in a competitive match must hold a UK passport."

After that Fifa ruling in May, Aherne sent the Irish ambassador to Switzerland (an experienced diplomat called Joe Lynch) to discuss the matter with the FIFA legal head Herrera.
Aherne had the news that FIFA changed their minds a few days before the IFA made a statement on their website to that effect.

Who knows what happened to change FIFA's mind after May 26, certainly not through the feeble efforts of the IFA.


Thanks for that. I should have searched the BBC's achive first having spent an hour on others.

[EalingGreen]

Ealing Green's account is a rather creative version which also flies in the face of reported timelined facts.
Aherne is credited as being the first politician to react to the FIFA requirement that NI players have to present a UK passport.
Two IFA honchos had only stated compliance to the FIFA requirement as evidenced by March 22 2006 'IFA international teams affairs official David Currie said the IFA wanted players to have British passports "to make travelling easier". "Its an administrative issue, not a political one" he said' and also Howard Wells was summarised by the BBC 27 March as saying 'having British papers made life simpler for Northern Ireland teams playing away from home'.
Aherne wrote his letter of protest to FIFA and a copy was sent to the IFA on March 27. Incredibly the IFA had not made any official statement on the matter at that time.
Wells apparently was sufficiently moved to ask FIFA for a clarification.
God knows what that request for clarification contained as Well�s stated reasoning at that time was pure waffle on top of waffle.
Anyone who thinks the IFA lobbied successfully for change considering their absolute ineptitude in these matters and their almost total ignorance of the rules of eligibility and nationality, is living in some cloud cuckoo land.

In May 2006, FIFA rejected Aherne's letter and replied to clarify the matter for the IFA. The Belfast Telegraph curiously reported
"Now FIFA have confirmed 100 per cent that the IFA were right and that a player wishing to play in a competitive match must hold a UK passport."

After that Fifa ruling in May, Aherne sent the Irish ambassador to Switzerland (an experienced diplomat called Joe Lynch) to discuss the matter with the FIFA legal head Herrera.
Aherne had the news that FIFA changed their minds a few days before the IFA made a statement on their website to that effect.

Who knows what happened to change FIFA's mind after May 26, certainly not through the feeble efforts of the IFA.

I really don't have time to look out the records (off to Tirana first thing tomorrow), but you and Mr. P are being seriously misleading if you think that the IFA ever actively sought to force NI players to carry UK Passports, or that Aherne's intervention was critical in reversing this.

The key elements are these.
1. It was FIFA who made such a requirement entirely out-of-the-blue, following a mix-up by one of their officials, entirely unrelated to anything Irish. I've no doubt that they issued their Circular without even thinking of the implications for the IFA;
2. When the Circular arrived at Windsor Avenue, it no doubt caused a degree of confusion/consternation. As a result, someone seems to have mentioned to a player(s) that they might/would have to get a UK Passport, but this was NEVER an IFA policy, and I am pretty certain that no general letter was, even can have been, sent out to NI players.
3. At this point, events took off down two lines. First, the IFA realised this needed sorting and got in touch with FIFA. Simultaneously, some (unnamed) player who had got wind, instead of going back to the IFA, got onto Pat Ramsey (player's local MLA?), which alerted Aherne. Suddenly, they (politicians) had a cause-celebre on their hands, and the papers had a "story". (As we all know, politicians don't refuse publicity any more than papers refuse ink).
4. Anyhow, the IFA was informed verbally by FIFA that NI players could use ROI passports, as normal, before the week was out.
5. Meantime, Aherne and Co. tried to claim the "credit" for this situation. Now it may well be that their "spin" was eagerly accepted by certain pet journalists - esp those who deal with political, rather than footballing matters (see eg the BT's plainly erroneous - not "curious" - report which you cite from May)
6. Finally, when FIFA got round to sorting out their paperwork and issuing rpelacement Circulars etc in May, Aherne looks to have made a final effort to claim credit.

This last, however, overlooks three key factors.
A. FIFA takes a dim view of overtly political interference in its internal affairs, preferring instead to deal via its Member associations. (In fact, I seem to recall a FIFA Official expressing irritation that the politicians were getting involved before they'd had a chance to look at it themselves?);
B. I do distinctly remember that the IFA was able to announce (end of March) that the matter was being resolved before anyone from the Irish Embassy was even able to set up a meeting with FIFA.
C. For as long as there has been a Free State etc, the IFA has been selecting players who have had Irish Passports. Had they wished, for some utterly bizarre, inexplicable reason, to prevent this from happening, they had the simple remedy of refusing to select them. Therefore why would they suddenly decide that they wanted to force players to carry UK Passports, as well as their Irish ones? Never mind the poltical controversy involved, expecting teenagers to cough up the extra fee for a second Passport (£70-odd?) was guaranteed to cause resistance.

Therefore it really doesn't make sense.

As for the contradictory accounts, these may be easily explained by a combination of both (initial) confusion at Windsor Avenue (which Wells and Currie subsequently look to have been attempting to conceal), along with certain politicians' seeking to gain political advantage at the expense of sport (and the truth, for that matter).

Neither of these last two factors surprises me.

Late Edit: It is not at all "incredible" that the IFA had made no official statement by the time of Aherne's "official letter of complaint" to FIFA. That was because they (IFA) were still discussing it with FIFA themselves and were in no position to speak out of turn. What you and Mr. P are overlooking is that it is easier for a meddling politician to make the running with Press Releases and public letters than it is for hard-pressed administrators (both IFA and FIFA) to sort these things out at 1,000 miles distance.
Remember, too, that whilst I have not the time to check it, the IFA will almost certainly have had some representative teams competing internationally between the end of March and the end of May. If it was never finally sorted out until May 26th, what Passports do you think the various players and officials actually travelled on?

[Nedser]

That info does not make the slightest bit of difference.


Geysir, just to be clear, the reason for my posting this information is in response to Mr Parker and others insisting that FIFA do not use passports to check nationality. They do. It's a fairly minor point in the grand scheme of things so I'm not going to post any further on it. I don't know why you're trying to deny that is the case to be honest.



Do you clearly understand that ONLY a British national can play for Northern Ireland?


Sorry, that's not correct either. People born in NI have the right to choose Irish nationality only, but they are still eligible for the NI football team.

[geysir]

Sorry, that's not correct either. People born in NI have the right to choose Irish nationality only, but they are still eligible for the NI football team.
Irish nationality only qualifies you for the FAI.

An Irish national born in the North is automatically a British national even if he/she never obtains a UK passport, even if he she only aspires to be an Irish citizen.
NI born are automatic dual citizens. Only the automatic British nationality qualifies a NI born to be eligible to play for NI.

[Mr_Parker]

I really don't have time to look out the records (off to Tirana first thing tomorrow), but you and Mr. P are being seriously misleading if you think that the IFA ever actively sought to force NI players to carry UK Passports, or that Aherne's intervention was critical in reversing this.

The key elements are these.
1. It was FIFA who made such a requirement entirely out-of-the-blue, following a mix-up by one of their officials, entirely unrelated to anything Irish. I've no doubt that they issued their Circular without even thinking of the implications for the IFA;
2. When the Circular arrived at Windsor Avenue, it no doubt caused a degree of confusion/consternation. As a result, someone seems to have mentioned to a player(s) that they might/would have to get a UK Passport, but this was NEVER an IFA policy, and I am pretty certain that no general letter was, even can have been, sent out to NI players.
3. At this point, events took off down two lines. First, the IFA realised this needed sorting and got in touch with FIFA. Simultaneously, some (unnamed) player who had got wind, instead of going back to the IFA, got onto Pat Ramsey (player's local MLA?), which alerted Aherne. Suddenly, they (politicians) had a cause-celebre on their hands, and the papers had a "story". (As we all know, politicians don't refuse publicity any more than papers refuse ink).
4. Anyhow, the IFA was informed verbally by FIFA that NI players could use ROI passports, as normal, before the week was out.
5. Meantime, Aherne and Co. tried to claim the "credit" for this situation. Now it may well be that their "spin" was eagerly accepted by certain pet journalists - esp those who deal with political, rather than footballing matters (see eg the BT's plainly erroneous - not "curious" - report which you cite from May)
6. Finally, when FIFA got round to sorting out their paperwork and issuing rpelacement Circulars etc in May, Aherne looks to have made a final effort to claim credit.

This last, however, overlooks three key factors.
A. FIFA takes a dim view of overtly political interference in its internal affairs, preferring instead to deal via its Member associations. (In fact, I seem to recall a FIFA Official expressing irritation that the politicians were getting involved before they'd had a chance to look at it themselves?);
B. I do distinctly remember that the IFA was able to announce (end of March) that the matter was being resolved before anyone from the Irish Embassy was even able to set up a meeting with FIFA.
C. For as long as there has been a Free State etc, the IFA has been selecting players who have had Irish Passports. Had they wished, for some utterly bizarre, inexplicable reason, to prevent this from happening, they had the simple remedy of refusing to select them. Therefore why would they suddenly decide that they wanted to force players to carry UK Passports, as well as their Irish ones? Never mind the poltical controversy involved, expecting teenagers to cough up the extra fee for a second Passport (£70-odd?) was guaranteed to cause resistance.

Therefore it really doesn't make sense.

As for the contradictory accounts, these may be easily explained by a combination of both (initial) confusion at Windsor Avenue (which Wells and Currie subsequently look to have been attempting to conceal), along with certain politicians' seeking to gain political advantage at the expense of sport (and the truth, for that matter).

Neither of these last two factors surprises me.

Late Edit: It is not at all "incredible" that the IFA had made no official statement by the time of Aherne's "official letter of complaint" to FIFA. That was because they (IFA) were still discussing it with FIFA themselves and were in no position to speak out of turn. What you and Mr. P are overlooking is that it is easier for a meddling politician to make the running with Press Releases and public letters than it is for hard-pressed administrators (both IFA and FIFA) to sort these things out at 1,000 miles distance.
Remember, too, that whilst I have not the time to check it, the IFA will almost certainly have had some representative teams competing internationally between the end of March and the end of May. If it was never finally sorted out until May 26th, what Passports do you think the various players and officials actually travelled on?

I have checked with someone who was closely involved in the story at the time and indeed before it broke. He has confirmed geysir's account of what happened but added that it was started following a NI underage game when a Uefa delegate kicked up a fuss with the IFA at the game. This prompted the letter and lends weight to why Currie made his statement at the time. He was 100% that it was 'inspired' by the IFA and Roy Millar in particular, 4 players, then at that level, were furious at this and went to the press 'off the record.' The rest followed from there.

Interestingly he also went on to tell me that there is another player 'going south' within the next few weeks.

[Mr_Parker]

Geysir, just to be clear, the reason for my posting this information is in response to Mr Parker and others insisting that FIFA do not use passports to check nationality. They do. It's a fairly minor point in the grand scheme of things so I'm not going to post any further on it. I don't know why you're trying to deny that is the case to be honest.


Please provide your evidence.

[geysir]

The key elements are these.
[QUOTE]1. It was FIFA who made such a requirement entirely out-of-the-blue, following a mix-up by one of their officials, entirely unrelated to anything Irish. I've no doubt that they issued their Circular without even thinking of the implications for the IFA;

Agreed, it was not an IFA plan but they were compliant to begin with, gave all the appearance of ineptness and later in May, I suspect a resigned compliance maybe just like yourself when you wrote on the OWC site May 26
"My own guess is that most of the NI players that this presently applies to will quietly obtain a UK Passport (hopefully supplied and kept by the IFA). After all, if they don't (and the rule isn't overturned), they're spelling the end of their international football careers, since they can't e.g. "switch" to the ROI"



This last, however, overlooks three key factors.
A. FIFA takes a dim view of overtly political interference in its internal affairs, preferring instead to deal via its Member associations. (In fact, I seem to recall a FIFA Official expressing irritation that the politicians were getting involved before they'd had a chance to look at it themselves?);

What you recall was a statement by the IFA'a Jim Boyce alleging FIFA's dim view of the political input on this matter after Aherne claimed the right to the applause.


B. I do distinctly remember that the IFA was able to announce (end of March) that the matter was being resolved before anyone from the Irish Embassy was even able to set up a meeting with FIFA.
Surely you mean end of May?
Aherne gave a staunch rejection of the FIFA reply on Fri May 26, albeit typical political bluster, But he was efficient and did not take no for an answer.
The IFA offered a confused reply.
,Aherne had already dispatched the experienced diplomat to meet with the FIFA legal dept after that weekend on Monday May 29.
There was nothing resolved before that meeting. Ridiculous to think that FIFA would reverse a ruling the day after making it, even more so that it was a weekend and insane to think that the IFA could have inspired that miracle.


C. For as long as there has been a Free State etc, the IFA has been selecting players who have had Irish Passports. Had they wished, for some utterly bizarre, inexplicable reason, to prevent this from happening, they had the simple remedy of refusing to select them. Therefore why would they suddenly decide that they wanted to force players to carry UK Passports, as well as their Irish ones? Never mind the poltical controversy involved, expecting teenagers to cough up the extra fee for a second Passport (£70-odd?) was guaranteed to cause resistance.

Therefore it really doesn't make sense.
It makes sense. I accept that IFA had no issues with Irish only passport but were too inept to put together a coherent argument and were miles behind everyone else, even the OWC fans.


As for the contradictory accounts, these may be easily explained by a combination of both (initial) confusion at Windsor Avenue (which Wells and Currie subsequently look to have been attempting to conceal), along with certain politicians' seeking to gain political advantage at the expense of sport (and the truth, for that matter).
The abysmal stated track record of Wells in all similar matters and all records of his responses to this issue categorically rules him out as an influence.
I have no truck with Aherne nor his boasts, as his argument was populist bluster and also he demonstrated an ignorance of FIFA rules, but I trust the able ambassador Joe Lynch. The simple explanation is that the FIFA legal dept finally got to grips with the automatic dual citizenship thing in the context of NI. I have little doubt that the consensus of opinion from IFA (albeit muddled), the Brit Gov, the irish GOV encouraged them to review the situation themselves very carefully..



Late Edit: It is not at all "incredible" that the IFA had made no official statement by the time of Aherne's "official letter of complaint" to FIFA. That was because they (IFA) were still discussing it with FIFA themselves and were in no position to speak out of turn. What you and Mr. P are overlooking is that it is easier for a meddling politician to make the running with Press Releases and public letters than it is for hard-pressed administrators (both IFA and FIFA) to sort these things out at 1,000 miles distance.

With the benefit of hindsight I admit it was not incredible as we are talking about the IFA.
I was surprised that their only stated response in March was compliant to FIFA with no official statement considering the fears of a worst nightmare scenario that this ruling could bring to them. I have no doubt they were thinking. There is no evidence anywhere that their thinking actually produced any rational thought or action.


Remember, too, that whilst I have not the time to check it, the IFA will almost certainly have had some representative teams competing internationally between the end of March and the end of May. If it was never finally sorted out until May 26th, what Passports do you think the various players and officials actually travelled on?
With many things on this case you also have your timeline confused.
FIFA only replied on Friday May 26 to uphold their March ruling and reject Aherne's objection.
Aherne replied immediately and dispatched the ambassador on the Monday to meet FIFA legal department
Meanwhile the IFA were thinking.
FIFA replied on June 16 or a little later and reversed their ruling.

I have no idea what passports the NI squad used in the meantime. It has no relevance.

[seanfhear]

Lets just go the same way as the Irish rugby team.

Nobody cares whether players are catholics or protestants or nationalists/unionists.

It probably will hapen in the longer term so why not get on with it.

There are many players that want it as can be seen by their recent actions.

[co. down green]

Balls! Gibson was developed first by Institute FC (IFA member club)

All this huge ‘IFA investment’ in players’ nonsense is garbage. Most of it isn’t funded by the IFA, it’s funded by me and the rest of the tax payers in the North. Its my money going into stadia safety programmes, playing facilities programmes, flood lights, training facilities, trainers, coaches etc….

New 6 county excellence managers..funded by me the taxpayer, primary school coaches..funded by me the taxpayer, ground improvements..funded by me the taxpayer.

So I’m quite happy for some of my taxes, rates etc.. to be used to develop and nurture the Next Darron Gibson, Marc Wilson, Shane Duffy, Paddy McEleney, Daniel Kearns..etc, after all its my money.


Quite honestly, we could have coped with the odd Saul Deeney or Henry McStay in the past, for the sake of good relations (if nothing else).

So it’s acceptable as long as the players are not premiership quality?

[stiffler]

I think this thread has ran its course by now.

Its getting nonsensical at this stage.

[tetsujin1979]

it's going in circles. same as every other thread on the same topic

[Nedser]

Please provide your evidence.

I've already done so.

[Nedser]

Irish nationality only qualifies you for the FAI.

An Irish national born in the North is automatically a British national even if he/she never obtains a UK passport, even if he she only aspires to be an Irish citizen. NI born are automatic dual citizens. Only the automatic British nationality qualifies a NI born to be eligible to play for NI.

Exact words from the GFA (http://www.dfa.ie/uploads/documents/Anglo-Irish/agreement.pdf):
"The participants endorse the commitment made by the British and Irish Governments that, in a new British-Irish Agreement replacing the Anglo-Irish Agreement, they will ....

(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose"

There it is in black and white. People born in the North are allowed to choose whether they are Irish, or British or both. Ergo they are not automatically British. They were automatically British in the eyes of the UK before the GFA, but not any more. This is exactly why the GFA is relevant to this issue.