Player eligibility row

[geysir]

Thats not how it played out with our situation. Passports can be acquired by many different means, automatic citizenship is a different matter and falls under article 15.
Because of the citizenship laws of the Republic before the GFA, Northern Irish born did not have to fulfill any of the requirements laid down in the other statutes - residency requirements or blood ties to the Republic, in order to qualify for the FAI. But it was not an automatic citizenship. They had to apply for citizenship as part of the passport application.
The GFA changed that and the citizenship rights were the same for all born on the Island.
Both Blatter and the legal head referred to that sameness of the citizenship rights as justification when they were called upon to give a reason why they supported the rights of all Ireland born to play for the FAI when it was challenged by the IFA.
And that those same GFA agreement was accepted both North and South.
If you don't see this, I would think you are missing a sizable part of the reason why FIFA rewrote that artice 15 in the way they did.

[Mr_Parker]

Yes, but you have to prove your nationality, and the standard way of doing so is with a passport. Another way would be a birth cert, but showing birth cert proving you were born in Belfast would not in itself be likey to satisfy FIFA that your nationality lies with ROI.


I think most of the rest of your post has already been dealt with and anyway I don't have much time at the moment, but I will answer the above. Players do not have to prove their nationality by producing any document to satisy FIFA in order to play for a country. There is no such requirement.

[Gather round]

Would it be fair to assume that the passing of the GFA had a bearing on the FAI's willingness to by-pass this "gentleman's agreement" in that the British government along with the population in Northern Ireland formally agreed that all those born on the island were entitled to Irish citizenship, whereas they hadn't previously, which would have made such an action as the FAI calling a northern-born player up appear hostile and somewhat irredentist with a flagrant disregard for what was then still under dispute as far as international relations were concerned?

Maybe. But of course the FAI's priority isn't to manage irredentism in international relations, it's to get more players (largely from outside the country) for their football team.


Can I just state that the flag and the anthem of Northern Ireland are not an issue at all and anybody who says it is is likely talking ******. It is the fact that there is a Northern Ireland, I have absolutely no allegiance to that state nor would ever describe myself as Northern Irish - the flag and the anthem issue is a total red herring
Fair enough. I wouldn't dismiss everyone who disagrees quite so airily, but clearly changing those symbols would have no effect on a lot of people's thinking.


Because of the circumstances on our unfortunately divided Island

Speak for yourself ;)


it is my belief that any Irish Man north or South should play for the team of their choosing

The issue is whether it's reasonable for them to play for both.


Kind of crazy to have supported the RoI team all of your life and if you have the desire and ability not to be able to play for them. The same also holds for NI

See immediately above.


My only suggestion for change would be that an Under 21 competitive cap ties you to that country and not let the topsy turvy scenarios we are left with under the current rules

Good man, there's a basis for negotiations to a compromise.


The special dispensation to the 4 UK teams to field international teams despite not being independent countries really muddies the waters in any debate of this sort. Someone previously implied that ROI has a special advantage here - on the contrary it's the 4 "home nations" that do

I don't think it does muddy the waters. The issue is whether it's reasonable for someone to play for two different teams. You could apply it anywhere (the reason FIFA changed their rules was under pressure from French-speaking countries in North and West Africa who wanted to be able to pick the children or grandchildren of expats who'd already played for underage international sides in France.

Britain's dispensation (which isn't unique, the Faroe Islands for example isn't a sovereign country) simply follows from us 'inventing' international football in the 19th. RoI doesn't have an advantage so much as an unusual* system of offering citizenship to people outside the country (* no criticism of this implied).


No apologies for using "Ireland" in this context as that's what the state is called, ROI was a FIFA invented name for the football team

FIFA- quite reasonably- uses the name RoI to avoid confusion, since its members include the two international teams in Ireland. They didn't invent the name- when I lived in Dublin people often referred to the country as the Republic, although I realise this is less so now.


AFAIK, the only qualification for schoolboy representation is where you go to school (there is a distinction between the U18 schoolboy team and the U18 national team). So Kernaghan qualified for NI schoolboys by virtue of the fact that he went to school there, in the same way Ryan Giggs played for England schoolboys, but was never eligible for the England national team

I think this may have changed recently- the Welsh schools team(s) include(s) players at school outside the country, but who are nationally-qualified to play for its youth sides.


IMO any player born in northern ireland is the same as the south. were all irish. i dont care if the IFA are annoyed about it. as far as im concerned were all irish - the one

You do realise there are two international football teams in Ireland?


We have to basically provide a service from which young players feel they will get something back and hopefully they will have the desire to play for Northern Ireland. It’s an issue we have to keep working at though, although if a young player feels a stronger affinity to the Republic of Ireland then that’s the way it is

Fair points. But really we have to do more than provide a service. However good it is, some people will always decline the chance to play international football, whether because they can't be arsed (Stephen Ireland, Biggles McCartney) or would prefer to play for another team. A deal with the FAI would go some way to improve the situation, although obviously I realise it wouldn't stop players simply turning away even if they couldn't then go and play for someone else.


the other Paul Kee had a very giid game against Austria in the previous match, NI's last significant away win

Ouch. To be fair we did thrash Liechtenstein in 2007, who weren't complete mugs.


Exactly. As far as I know the gentleman's agreement was originally disbanded at a stage when Nationlists playing for the North were being given significant stick (around the time Lennon's abuse picked up?). The game in 93 at Windsor may have had some bearing in FAI circles. Was Kerr the first underage manager to pick youngsters born in the 6 counties?

Er, how far do you know? Which other players got significant stick (obviously I'm not downplaying the disgraceful treatment of Neil Lennon)? I don't want to be too defensive about this, but whatever the merits of the previous deal we need one that stops NI internationals later moving to play for the Republic. It's only reasonable.

[ifk101]

I don't want to be too defensive about this, but whatever the merits of the previous deal we need one that stops NI internationals later moving to play for the Republic. It's only reasonable.

What previous deal?

[geysir]

I'm aware of those facts, but as I stated in my post, before the GFA, people born in the 6 counties were automatically considered Irish citziens by the Irish state, but not by the UK. As such, proving you were born in NI would not at the time have proven to FIFA that you had the appropriate nationality to play for ROI. You would have needed some other document to prove you had the appropriate nationality, and in practice, that document is normally an Irish passport. I agree that anyone born in the North was always entitled to an Irish passport though (well by "always", I mean since independence for the 26).
You are confused by 'entitled to' and 'automatically' an Irish citizen.
Entitled to be eligible for citizenship and automatic citizenship are 2 different scenarios.

Before the GFA, people born in NI were not automatically dual citizens, they had the birth right to pursue an Irish citizenship under the Irish Nationality Act of the mid 1950s
After the GFA, pretty much all NI born were automatic Irish citizens and therefore automatically dual citizens.

Because of the automatic nationality since the GFA, Shane Duffy may only have a UK passport but can still play for the FAI.

[Mr_Parker]

IFA to go to the CAS

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/irish/8538702.stm

[dr_peepee]

IFA to go to the CAS

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/irish/8538702.stm

Yep. Rather than engage with the players that switched and address the reasons for switching they go this route. Shockingly short sighted at best. This is going to compound the issue and drive more players to declare for us. Ridiculous in my opinion..

[Wolfie]

IFA to go to the CAS

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/irish/8538702.stm

Could get interesting if the SFA row in with the IFA on this. Possible the SFA have already given an assurance to IFA that they will.

"However, the Northern Ireland governing body will argue that players such as Gibson, whose parents and grandparents were born in Northern Ireland, should not be allowed to declare for the Republic".

If lads such as Gibson have a strong desire to play for Ireland - how are they suggesting they will stop them?

If the likes of Gibson can acquire an Irish Passport - how are IFA suggesting he could not play for Ireland?

[osarusan]

If lads such as Gibson have a strong desire to play for Ireland - how are they suggesting they will stop them?

If the likes of Gibson can acquire an Irish Passport - how are IFA suggesting he could not play for Ireland?

Maybe by trying to get the rule changed so that only the grandparent rule applies? Or to get a younger deadline for declaration of nationality (in a football sense at least)?

Not a hope of it happening though I'd say, as it would mean a citizen of a country (automatically, due to GFA) would not be allowed to represent that country. (without having already represented another country)

[lopez]

The answer to the question is no. And if Northern Ireland fans are saying that these players are 'stolen' then the ignorance amongst the people there hasn't changed much.

Two points: The availability of a passport to anyone born in the North was always there, regardless of ancestry. When I got a quick FBC for my son in 1994, a London embassy official told me he had just done an Irish passport for the child of two Indian parents, one a doctor, living in Belfast. Put it down to the residency rule in a part of Ireland claimed by Dublin, but that was the case.

Second point, especially for Gather Round, is that the proposal to tie a player to a country from the youth team - as happened in the past - should be brought back. But this rule needs to be done by FIFA for ALL countries, not just us. As for a special rule for Ireland, forget it. The Russian fed with a similar Russian population in Latvia and smaller minorities in Estonia, Ukraine etc, will not allow a situation that would compromise losing possibly their best ever player, who feels Russian and wants to play for Russia, to another country.

[Gather round]

What previous deal?

The Gentleman's Agreement. You know, the one that ran for decades.


IFA to go to the CAS

Can't see the point of this. We should be trying to persuade FAI to a compromise, not ****ing into the wind in Zurich or wherever CAS is.


Yep. Rather than engage with the players that switched and address the reasons for switching they go this route

Hang on, the IFA have engaged with some of these players (particularly Duffy) at great length. The assumption by some on here- that 'by all accounts he felt badly treated' doesn't ring true. Clearly he was very well treated and still refused to play. And let's be honest, there are varying reasons for moving to the RoI side that are well known: English guys wouldn't get in their side, Gibson and McGeady were unhappy at having to give up a club trial for a Scotland or NI representative game and so on. If Duffy never really wanted to play for any NI side, clearly we're well rid before he does a Biggles and sulks off in the middle of the senior qualifiers. More gently, if he was just considering his options we need to press for those options to be changed. It won't force anyone to play, at any level, but it just might save us good players who would otherwise be lost. In practice there will always be players from all backgrounds who see the attraction of playing international football.


This is going to compound the issue and drive more players to declare for us

Agreed it's a risk. But even without this row there is an existing risk that our already international players can then go to play for other teams. We need to try to reduce this and protect our small player pool.


Could get interesting if the SFA row in with the IFA on this. Possible the SFA have already given an assurance to IFA that they will

They may owe us a favor for helping to kill off the Team GB but there's little really in this for the Scots. McGeady and McCarthy are in an unusual situation, not many 20-something Scots will have Irish grandparents according to most Glaswegian fans I know. The tabloid hysteria probably a one off.


If lads such as Gibson have a strong desire to play for Ireland - how are they suggesting they will stop them?

Tying after any u-19, u-21 or senior cap looks the only credible way to me.


If the likes of Gibson can acquire an Irish Passport - how are IFA suggesting he could not play for Ireland?

See above. You can have two or as many passports as you qualify for, but you should only be able to play for one international team as an adult.


Maybe by trying to get the rule changed so that only the grandparent rule applies?

As you say, this is a no-no. There's no difference between Duffy on the one hand and Wilson and Gibson on the other just because only one of them had a parent born across the border


Or to get a younger deadline for declaration of nationality (in a football sense at least)?

Why not 18? But the birthday isn't the greatest significance, it's accepting selection to play for NI at u-19/ u-21/ senior level.


Second point, especially for Gather Round, is that the proposal to tie a player to a country from the youth team - as happened in the past - should be brought back

Good point, amigo.


But this rule needs to be done by FIFA for ALL countries, not just us...as for a special rule for Ireland, forget it

Why? It's only a problem for Northern Ireland that can be addressed by the Republic of Ireland. Limited short-term interest to Scotland and basically none to anyone else. As you know, FIFA have just done basically the opposite (because they can mollify the Africans without really inconveniencing France. Anyway, I imagine the last thing your FA and most fans want is to involve FIFA. After the November upset I half-thought you might boycott Euro 2012 in protest ;)


The Russian fed with a similar Russian population in Latvia and smaller minorities in Estonia, Ukraine etc, will not allow a situation that would compromise losing possibly their best ever player, who feels Russian and wants to play for Russia, to another country

I don't see why not. Give him an U-19 cap, if he's that keen he'll accept.

[lopez]

Why? It's only a problem for Northern Ireland that can be addressed by the Republic of Ireland. Limited short-term interest to Scotland and basically none to anyone else. As you know, FIFA have just done basically the opposite (because they can mollify the Africans without really inconveniencing France. Anyway, I imagine the last thing your FA and most fans want is to involve FIFA. After the November upset I half-thought you might boycott Euro 2012 in protest ;)No it's not just a problem for you. It's a problem for Bosnia, and a host of USSR successor states. With Scotland and France the question is down to geographical ancestry. With NI it is down to ethnicity that has nothing to do with geography.

If you don't want the situation of players jumping from one FA to another then change the rules. What is not up for negotiation is that any player born in Ireland can play for what they regard as their country. That includes someone from Donegal declaring for the North, but then I forgot, he can't get a British passport even if his great grandfather died in a trench in Northern France for Britain. I'm sorry but we can't help you with either of these issues. You need to see the people concerned even if you end up covered, as you say, by your own urine.

[ifk101]

The Gentleman's Agreement. You know, the one that ran for decades.

Can't say I'm familiar with that agreement. Can you provide any details? You know, things like the date this agreement was made, the names of the people that "shook" on it, etc etc....

[dantheman]

Dear oh dear. If I was an FAI scout looking north, I'd be worried about my job! :cool:

By running to the CAS and ignoring the main anthem issue that exists in Belfast, the IFA are doing the FAI's recruiting for them!!

Give it up, and stop shooting yourselves in the foot. It can't be everyone else's fault....



Can't say I'm familiar with that agreement. Can you provide any details? You know, things like the date this agreement was made, the names of the people that "shook" on it, etc etc....

This is what happens when unionists talk only amongst themselves, and ignore outside opinions. Statements like this become established facts. There is no agreement.

And guess what, even if there was one, the IFA are owed no favours after the disgraceful behavious down the years.

[Munster Saint]

Could get interesting if the SFA row in with the IFA on this. Possible the SFA have already given an assurance to IFA that they will.

It would be hard to see the Scots getting involved:

SFA Rep - "It's not right, the Republic of Ireland poaching underage players from other countries"
CAS Official - "Didn't Daniel Fox play for the England u21s?"
SFA Rep - "Oh, I forgot, I have a meeting I need to be at... got to go..."

[EalingGreen]

Can't say I'm familiar with that agreement. Can you provide any details? You know, things like the date this agreement was made, the names of the people that "shook" on it, etc etc....
Haven't got time at present to make a full post on this overall thread, but re the Gentlemens' Agreement, despite there likely being no documentation extant, or surviving negotiators, I have no doubt whatsoever about its existence, which has been referred to widely and without challenge from any source.

And the facts clearly bear out the existence of such an Agreement; from the sources which I have quickly and easily to hand, the following is evident.

1. The FAI first picked an NI born player at least as early as 1931 - Enniskillener Harry Chatton:
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/08/harry-chatton.html

2. In subsequent years, they went on to pick several more (at the same time as the IFA were picking Southern-born players):
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/10/dual-internationalists.html

3. After WWII, the issue became more pressing, for a number of reasons:
a. The four British Associations re-joined FIFA;
b. This meant that NI were likely to re-enter the World Cup and any other international competitions which might be organised. Naturally, FIFA were going to be concerned by the implications of this eg players representing two teams within the one competition, as actually happened in 1950 -
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2008/01/dave-walsh.html
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2008/01/reg-paddy-ryan.html
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2007/12/con-martin.html
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2007/12/tom-aherne.html
c. The IFA was notably more successful in enticing Southern players to represent them than the FAI, both because they could offer players regular 'glamour' games against England and Scotland, which required less travelling (from their English clubs, btw) than the ROI when competing either in Dublin or on the Continent, but also because the IFA treated them very well (see Con Martin quotation, below).

As a consequence, the FAI became extremely concerned that, as the numbers confirmed, they were losing out. They began to put pressure on Southern-born players not to represent the IFA, but play only for themselves, eventually even leaning on their clubs (my emphasis):

Con [Martin] was another dual internationalist. He played six times for Northern Ireland from 1946 to 1950 when the split was finally made between the FAI and the northern IFA who from then on were only able to recruit players born in their respective jurisdictions. Matters had come to a head during the 1950 World Cup campaign when some players (including Martin) represented both countries. Extreme pressure was put on the Irish players involved by the FAI to declare themselves in future only for the Republic.
Con was very unhappy about it: “I always had a great relationship with the IFA. We were treated very well and I always liked playing for them but the night before the game in Wrexham (when Northern Ireland played Wales in a World Cup tie) I got a call from Dublin asking me to refuse to play. I said that it was difficult to give an answer because this was my work, my profession.
“However, when I returned to Aston Villa the morning after the game I was approached by the chairman who asked me to refuse to play for Northern Ireland again. Surprised at this coming from him I asked why and he said that Villa would not be welcome in the Republic if I continued to play for Northern Ireland. At the time there was a big connection between Villa and Shamrock Rovers and it was Rovers who were making the running on this issue… and about his time I had got a lot of threatening letters and was called a Judas for playing for 20 pieces of silver. Some of the other players were reluctant to follow me but eventually they all did.”
http://irishabroad.com/news/irishpost/sport/NorthAndSouthOf220308.asp

The outcome of all this was as follows. After the NI v Wales World Cup Qualifier (Mar.1950), the FAI approached FIFA to express their dissatisfaction, who appear to have arbitrated the agreement that the border should be respected i.e. Irish players should only represent the Association within whose jurisdiction they were born.

in international competition only (i.e. the IFA was/is entitled to call themselves "Ireland" in friendlies or tournaments such as the British Championship, which they did until around 1970)]

The moral of which is that by espousing the doctrine of "choice" for the likes of Darron Gibson, the FAI is being wholly hypocritical, considering they moved previously to prevent players from choosing to represent the IFA.

Moreover, it was they (FAI) who originally requested that Irish players should not be entitled to represent the team from over the border from which they were born.

And it was they who broke the subsequent Gentlemens' Agreement, by starting to pick NI-born players, initially at youth level, afaik as early as the beginning of the 1990's.

Therefore, whilst their conduct may be within FIFA's current Rules, the fact that they are/were prepared unilaterally to overturn the whole spirit of their relationship with the IFA, even whilst they are simultaneously seeking closer co-operation with us (eg the Celtic Cup), shows how dishonourable they can be when it suits them.

Then again, I hardly need to remind football fans in the Republic about that - at least those who are aware eg of the way in which the FAI adminsters the LOI and club licensing etc.:rolleyes:

Indeed, my attention was drawn the other day to the latest example of their willingness to ignore established, but inconvenient, rules and procedures etc i.e. the new shirts, where they call themselves "Ireland" on the badge etc...
http://www.faishop.com/section/19

"FAI"?

"F**k All Integrity" :mad:

Late Edit: Whilst posting this, I came across a reference to the Gentlemens' Agreement; apparently Sean Ryan confirms it in his 1997 book "The Boys in Green - The FAI International Story".
Anyone out there got a copy to hand?
GSpain perhaps?

[geysir]

News report that the IFA intend to appeal to CAS.
From the IFA statement
"The decision is taken purely on the grounds of upholding the FIFA statues of article 15 and 16 and that the current situation that exists puts the IFA at a clear disadvantage over all other 206 associations. "
Jesus wept, the great legal minds inside the IFA want FIFA to uphold article 15!! Well thank you very much IFA. Case closed as FIFA are certainly upholding article 15. Quite an astonishing example of ineptitude only surpassed by their request that FIFA uphold article 16 :confused:
WTF has article 16 got to do with anything? That is the article FIFA wrote to regulate eligibility for the 4 UK federations. Article 16 is what all the 4 UK federations agreed to do amongst themselves to regulate how eligibility for their federations is worked out from one UK citizenship.

"The Irish Football Association are raising the matter of player eligibility with the Court of Arbitration for Sport"

from the FIFA statutes
1 "Appeals against final decisions passed by FIFA’s legal bodies and against decisions passed by Confederations, Members or Leagues shall be lodged with CAS within 21 days of notification of the deci- sion in question".

The FAI reply modestly
"the FAI remains confident that the CAS will not change the current position"

[Noelys Guitar]

Why should we stop recruiting Irish born players? And listen to the Linfield 'fans' at tonights match against St Pats. No hope for these people. Rule Britannia against St Pats. Phythonesque stuff. You could hear the English commentator starting to cringe.

[SilkCut]

Why should we stop recruiting Irish born players?

Exactly, if they choose to play for us over the north thats hard luck. The Northeners don't seem to understand that many of their population consider themselves Irish before British or Northern Irish and dont have the same attachment to the NI football team as an Englishman has to England or a Welshman to Wales (I would say Scotsman to Scotland but they appear to prefer Ireland too!) Its a completely unique situation and one the IFA and FAI have to either live with or put aside their differences and form an all Ireland team.

[Paddy Garcia]

Therefore, whilst their conduct may be within FIFA's current Rules, the fact that they are/were prepared unilaterally to overturn the whole spirit of their relationship with the IFA, even whilst they are simultaneously seeking closer co-operation with us (eg the Celtic Cup), shows how dishonourable they can be when it suits them.


Wanted to avoid this debate, but really laughed that you think you can talk about dishonour. You might think there is more dishonour in:



selecting players like Taylor with no link whatsoever to N Ireland
the abuse offered by your own fans now on OWC
the Neil Lennon incidents
a dictatorial attitude in seeking to prevent Irish lads representing their country
seeking to overturn the ruling of the GFA, when it suits
the endemic sectarianism associated with the home of NI football
union and political flags still common place at games in particular at Linfield
your own acronym for the FAI in this post, which I think is in pretty poor form
only last year a man killed in Coleraine by football fans celebrating winning the league.




Are you really proud of the relationship the IFA & Co have had with the Irish team/supporters over the last 30/40 years. Hardly something worth preserving unless you relished some very unsavory events over the years.

I know a lot is being done by some very good people to move on & things are greatly improved, but you need to take a reality check. The great & the good at the FAI may well be a hopeless bunch, but when it comes to dishonour you might think there are better targets for your accusations.

Duffy & Gibson's decision should be respected, as should diversity.

[dantheman]

The Northeners don't seem to understand that many of their population consider themselves Irish before British or Northern Irish and dont have the same attachment to the NI football team as an Englishman has to England or a Welshman to Wales (I would say Scotsman to Scotland but they appear to prefer Ireland too!) Its a completely unique situation and one the IFA and FAI have to either live with or put aside their differences and form an all Ireland team.

First of all all Northerners aren't the same otherwise there wouldn't have been any issues(!), but I know what you mean and agree totally.
This is an interesting pyschological study into what happens when you do not engage with the other strand of the community with which you live.
You only hear one point of view all the time, and take it as accepted fact as it is unchallenged.
When stuff like these "defections" and "poaching" happen, your cosy little world is shattered. Of course these are neither "defections" nor "poaching", but again you think that due to the fact that you have dismissed all other points of view.

Sadly this seems to be STILL the attitude of the predominantly Unionist fan base of the NI football team.


So they have gone running to Switzerland, where the FAI (if they need to even turn up) will make mincemeat of them.


Have they acknowledged any reasons as to why they may be to blame?
No

Have the engaged in the nationalist community from where these "defections" originate?
No


What have they said?
F**k Shane Duffy, I hope he breaks his leg the wee c*nt (from OWC)
F**k the FAI
F**k the beggars (this from the most subsidised region in western Europe!)
F**k Fifa
F**k Liam Brady

And the F**k All Integrity jibe from an organisation who's president is an Orangeman, signed a 100 year lease with an at-the-time openly sectarian club Linfield, and chased two of their clubs Derry City & Belfast Celtic out of their league simply because they were predominantly Catholic?


And yet, after all this, they expect to have a "gentlemans agreement" with the FAI?
Are the IFA a group of gentleman?
What sort of gentlemen, when charged with administrating football in all of NI, choose themselves to play an anthem which alienated nearly half its population?
Seeks to go against the spirit of the bitterly negotiated GFA, which has brought us some stability after 3 decades of conflict?

The FAI are not the special case here.
NI, England, Scotland & Wales are the special cases. The others know it, and they will not support the IFA.

Here are some things the IFA should do (for the sake of balance):

-Change their anthem immediately to something neutral (Danny Boy may be a dirge but it was good enough for Barry McGuigan and others). Not just talking hot air about it, DO IT.They could call EGM and do it within a week if they wanted.
-Openly apologise to the nationalist community for the disgraceful behavior to their supporters, players AND clubs over the years
-Change their name from the Irish Football Association, as they only appear to be "irish" in any way, shape or form when they are trying to twist "their" interpretation of eligibility rules
-Stop calling the FAI decision sectarian, when GSTQ & No Surrender blast out from Linfield 15%'s home ground, Windsor Park


The IFA and the bigotry of its fans are ENTIRELY responsible for this situation. They have been a total and utter disgrace for the last number of decades.

After the death threats and defections, the English anthem still bellows out around WP. If you have access, check out the disgusting attitude of the NI fans on the OWC forum towards the Republic and its supporters regarding this. And try and reconcile this with nationalist fans wanting to share an allegiance to a team (& stadium) where this is the representative view.


However,
in a Machiavellian way,
the IFA could turn out to be the best recruitment agency the FAI will ever have had...:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[ArdeeBhoy]

So by your logic, it's grand that you stole one of our players because some of our fans refer to you as beggars?

Excellent logic that.

Well we could call you 'The Planters' or worse. But why bother?
They should stop being so paranoid and recognise that not everyone in their archaic colonial theme park Doesn't want to belong to it or its sports teams, unless they really had to.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Actually I'd disagree with DanTM's last post. As an ardent nationalist I'd say, to be fair, that a number of them are now contradicting this stereotypical viewpoint. That said, there are still paranoid bigots on there of the worst kind also.

[dantheman]

Actually I'd disagree with DanTM's last post. As an ardent nationalist I'd say, to be fair, that a number of them are now contradicting this stereotypical viewpoint. That said, there are still paranoid bigots on there of the worst kind also.

You are correct some are, but this issue has sadly drowned out some of the more reasonable points of view.
There are some noble intentions, but no action has been taken on them.

Hopefully this will change...hopefully.....for their own sake.....

[Qwerty]

In terms of the recruiting part - as long as the FAI is not making the first contact to a player who is currently playing for another country I have no problem, as long as the player or his proxy makes the first contact there can be no argument given the current rules. I especially welcome players who were born and raised in NI.

The IFA can feel aggrieved but it's part and parcel of international sport these days. If Shane Duffy or Darron Gibson are fulfilling an ambition to play for ROI why would the IFA want to stand in their way?

It's also odd that they're reportedly going the legal route once more while at the same time acknowledging that Duffy is fully qualified and entitled to represent the ROI. Didn't they go the legal route last year when Gibson made his move, what has changed?

Given the political and historical situation FIFA cannot be allowed to deny any person born in NI the right to play for the ROI regardless of whether or not their parents or grandparents were born on the Island pre-partition. I suppose they could put in a clause that says children of immigrants from outside the island of Ireland wouldn't be qualified to play for ROI, I'm not sure if that is a gray area of not.

In fairness to the FAI they made no issue of Shane Lowry & Paul Marshall leaving.

Also this talk about investing resources in player development is pretty much a lot of pish. The real development is done by the clubs, not the odd get together at international level.

And Duffy is 18, how many 18 yr old prospects have actually gone on to be as good as people forecast. Is JOSH really the new Paul McGrath? Duffy could be playing League 1 in a couple of seasons, or injury could end it at any time.

But it's like an employee choosing to go work somewhere else you have to respect their decision and wish them the best of luck, sport and even international sport today is a business, it's a career not just an honour.

The best of luck to him!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Besides all the predictable gurning, haven't the North taken various players, just on the pretext of a Brit.passport, eg.Maik Taylor, who have no have no connection to N.E.Ulster whatsoever....I'm sure there must be more!

Nice hypocrisy all the same!

[SkStu]

great posts from Paddy Garcia, DanTheMan and Qwerty.

The only thing the FAI need to stop doing is actively recruiting NI players at underage level. This is not fair at all in my opinion and if it is happening, it should stop. If the players want to play for Ireland they can make their intentions known to the FAI at any stage up to a senior competitive cap according to the FIFA rules.

If the owc idiots and IFA imbeciles could see past their loathing of the FAI and Ireland in general, they would see that their beef should really be with FIFA's rules, the players who choose to play for Ireland and their own intolerance and sectarianism which is alive and thriving, as heard in Richmond tonight.

Anyway, its being said better by other posters here so ill step back out of this one.

[Noelys Guitar]

The game tonight was in Richmond Park not windsor park. It was the pseudo hooligan Linfield night. Truely depressing stuff. Nobody likes us we don't care? This is sad behaviour. The were not Brazil stuff must be soul destroying for all pro footballers in NI. Bouncy, bouncy will suffice over qualifying for a major championship. Sad and delusional.

[SkStu]

edit made, thanks Noely, i picked it up wrong from what i read.

[SilkCut]

First of all all Northerners aren't the same otherwise there wouldn't have been any issues(!), but I know what you mean and agree totally.
:

Absolutely accept all northerners are not the same should probably have said that. Rest of your post is spot on. The fact remains that as long as people born in the North are entitled to ROI citizenship then they are also entitled to represent the ROI in whatever field they wish - no court in the world can deny that, to do so would make the Good Friday Agreement null and void surely not even Sepp Blatter and his greedy minions would attempt to do that!!

[Noelys Guitar]

No problem Skstu. I am a Rovers fan through and through but I did attended any LOI team playing in Europe in the 70's/80'sclose to Dublin. And that included Bohs against Newcastle, Sporting Lisbon and Rangers. And Limerick against Real Madrid and Waterford against Honved at Milltown. Now that was serious row time. Especially Bohs against newcastle and Rangers (Garda murdered).

[geysir]

If behavior of fans was an issue then you should only consider the behavior of NI fans. Imo the actual behavior of Norn Iron fans home and away at their games is not an issue. Since the Lennon debacle at the Norway game, the support for the most part is no different from any passionate bunch.

You can't mix accounts of a club support and imply that this is what passes for OWC support.
No more than you cast a shadow on Ireland fans because of the conduct of some who attach themselves to a LOI club.

[seanfhear]

Maybe some of NI's fans should question why so many players from NI want to play for a team that they call the "beggars".

This name calling may be a sympton as to why so many young men from NI wish to play for the RoI.

All players from any part of Ireland are welcome to play for Ireland(RoI). Hopefully for the most part supporters of Ireland will refrain from calling anyone derogatory names.

[lopez]

Haven't got time at present to make a full post on this overall thread...

Indeed, my attention was drawn the other day to the latest example of their willingness to ignore established, but inconvenient, rules and procedures etc i.e. the new shirts, where they call themselves "Ireland" on the badge etc...
http://www.faishop.com/section/19

"FAI"?

"F**k All Integrity" :mad:

Late Edit: Whilst posting this, I came across a reference to the Gentlemens' Agreement; apparently Sean Ryan confirms it in his 1997 book "The Boys in Green - The FAI International Story".
Anyone out there got a copy to hand?
GSpain perhaps?And we haven't got the time to wade through your bullsh*te!

If you're harking back to the fifties, that was a time when players could jump from one country to another 'country' at will. This was no problem to the FAI as Irish players of whatever persuasion could play for the South in the World Cup - I noticed in typical imperialistic attitude that you felt that this competition was beneath you until the 1950 qualifiers kicked off - and they could play for the North in the British Championships. Indeed, both teams wore the same kits for much of the time, and no one gave a f*ck what the teams was called. There was no problem until FIFA used the British championship for the qualifying group for the 1950 World Cup. Obviously this would cause a problem for the FAI.

As for 'integrity', now who do I refer to the find out the name of my country. Some bitter and twisted bigot from Ealing so sad he has to go on a football forum of fans from the country hates most to pontificate and bullsh*te...or my country's constitution. The name of the country is Republic of Ireland. Same as Republic of France, Republic of Italy or Republic of Bongo-Bongo Land. Does anyone refer to these countries with the 'Republic' bit? No! So my advice to you is check yourself into some rehab for the mentally unstable and get some much needed EST.

[lopez]

"The Irish Football Association are raising the matter of player eligibility with the Court of Arbitration for Sport"

from the FIFA statutes
1 "Appeals against final decisions passed by FIFA’s legal bodies and against decisions passed by Confederations, Members or Leagues shall be lodged with CAS within 21 days of notification of the deci- sion in question".

The FAI reply modestly
"the FAI remains confident that the CAS will not change the current position"Haven't they done this before? A decision was made and yet they are re-presenting an old case. They must have had an appeal last time, and I take it they were told in French or German to F**k Right Off! This shouldn't even get through the door this time.

[ArdeeBhoy]

And we haven't got the time to wade through your bullsh*t

If you're harking back to the fifties, that was a time when players could jump from one country to another 'country' at will. This was no problem to the FAI as Irish players of whatever persuasion could play for the South in the World Cup - I noticed in typical imperialistic attitude that you felt that this competition was beneath you until the 1950 qualifiers kicked off - and they could play for the North in the British Championships. Indeed, both teams wore the same kits for much of the time, and no one gave a f*ck what the teams was called. There was no problem until FIFA used the British championship for the qualifying group for the 1950 World Cup. Obviously this would cause a problem for the FAI.

As for 'integrity', now who do I refer to the find out the name of my country. Some bitter and twisted bigot from Ealing so sad he has to go on a football forum of fans from the country hates most to pontificate and bullsh*te...or my country's constitution. The name of the country is Republic of Ireland. Same as Republic of France, Republic of Italy or Republic of Bongo-Bongo Land. Does anyone refer to these countries with the 'Republic' bit? No! So my advice to you is check yourself into some rehab for the mentally unstable and get some much needed EST.

Liking your thinking Senor. You there Tuesday?

[Noelys Guitar]

(In reply to Geysir). I think you'll find it is one of the main reasons nationalists stay away and players like Duffy choose to play for the ROI. The Linfield crowd last night at the Pats game would also make up a large part of the NI support. Lets not kid ourselves here. I have no problem with them taking the **** ala singing Thierry Henry. The BNP stuff not so funny. And all too real.

[lopez]

Liking your thinking Senor. You there Tuesday?Is the Pope a Catholic? :D

[Predator]

(In reply to Geysir). I think you'll find it is one of the main reasons nationalists stay away and players like Duffy choose to play for the ROI. The Linfield crowd last night at the Pats game would also make up a large part of the NI support. Lets not kid ourselves here. I have no problem with them taking the **** ala singing Thierry Henry. The BNP stuff not so funny. And all too real.
It truly is naive to disregard the impact that the image of NI has on players' decisions and I've noticed that some people tend to. Most reasonable Northern Ireland fans will acknowledge this, but some will dismiss it out of hand.

It's like a tradition among kids from nationalist backgrounds who play Northern Ireland to bow their heads during the playing of GSTQ and that is even present at underage level too! Why should kids have these kinds of thoughts in their heads?! I mean, kids, including Duffy, just want to play football, but the image of playing for Northern Ireland is unfortunately extremely politically-charged and the fault for that must surely lie with the IFA and the fans.

[geysir]

Haven't they done this before? A decision was made and yet they are re-presenting an old case. They must have had an appeal last time, and I take it they were told in French or German to F**k Right Off! This shouldn't even get through the door this time.

When I think about it, the IFA are not appealing the decision FIFA made, instead they are asking FIFA to uphold the decision.
What are CAS going to say except a resounding yes, that FIFA are upholding the eligibility statutes that were rewritten and accepted May 2008.

Not only do the IFA still not understand the statutes, they are using the same failed argument (that FIFA must uphold the statutes) as last time.

[Scooby Doo]

First of all all Northerners aren't the same otherwise there wouldn't have been any issues(!), but I know what you mean and agree totally.
This is an interesting pyschological study into what happens when you do not engage with the other strand of the community with which you live.
You only hear one point of view all the time, and take it as accepted fact as it is unchallenged.
When stuff like these "defections" and "poaching" happen, your cosy little world is shattered. Of course these are neither "defections" nor "poaching", but again you think that due to the fact that you have dismissed all other points of view.

Sadly this seems to be STILL the attitude of the predominantly Unionist fan base of the NI football team.


So they have gone running to Switzerland, where the FAI (if they need to even turn up) will make mincemeat of them.


Have they acknowledged any reasons as to why they may be to blame?
No

Have the engaged in the nationalist community from where these "defections" originate?
No


What have they said?
F**k Shane Duffy, I hope he breaks his leg the wee c*nt (from OWC)
F**k the FAI
F**k the beggars (this from the most subsidised region in western Europe!)
F**k Fifa
F**k Liam Brady

And the F**k All Integrity jibe from an organisation who's president is an Orangeman, signed a 100 year lease with an at-the-time openly sectarian club Linfield, and chased two of their clubs Derry City & Belfast Celtic out of their league simply because they were predominantly Catholic?


And yet, after all this, they expect to have a "gentlemans agreement" with the FAI?
Are the IFA a group of gentleman?
What sort of gentlemen, when charged with administrating football in all of NI, choose themselves to play an anthem which alienated nearly half its population?
Seeks to go against the spirit of the bitterly negotiated GFA, which has brought us some stability after 3 decades of conflict?

The FAI are not the special case here.
NI, England, Scotland & Wales are the special cases. The others know it, and they will not support the IFA.

Here are some things the IFA should do (for the sake of balance):

-Change their anthem immediately to something neutral (Danny Boy may be a dirge but it was good enough for Barry McGuigan and others). Not just talking hot air about it, DO IT.They could call EGM and do it within a week if they wanted.
-Openly apologise to the nationalist community for the disgraceful behavior to their supporters, players AND clubs over the years
-Change their name from the Irish Football Association, as they only appear to be "irish" in any way, shape or form when they are trying to twist "their" interpretation of eligibility rules
-Stop calling the FAI decision sectarian, when GSTQ & No Surrender blast out from Linfield 15%'s home ground, Windsor Park


The IFA and the bigotry of its fans are ENTIRELY responsible for this situation. They have been a total and utter disgrace for the last number of decades.

After the death threats and defections, the English anthem still bellows out around WP. If you have access, check out the disgusting attitude of the NI fans on the OWC forum towards the Republic and its supporters regarding this. And try and reconcile this with nationalist fans wanting to share an allegiance to a team (& stadium) where this is the representative view.


However,
in a Machiavellian way,
the IFA could turn out to be the best recruitment agency the FAI will ever have had...:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
That was an excellent post Dan. Enjoyed reading it.

[DannyInvincible]

As for a special rule for Ireland, forget it. The Russian fed with a similar Russian population in Latvia and smaller minorities in Estonia, Ukraine etc, will not allow a situation that would compromise losing possibly their best ever player, who feels Russian and wants to play for Russia, to another country.

Forgive me if this has been mentioned since as I haven't had time to go through everything that's been posted in detail, but is it the case that Russia offers citizenship extraterritorially and players with such citizenship are eligible to play for Russia? What player are you referring to exactly? Excuse my ignorance, ha. I don't think the IFA have a leg to stand on here, but this would only compound it in the minds of those in FIFA. It's just an unfortunate reality for them. Irish nationality is an indisputable and internationally-agreed birthright of those born in the north.

[lopez]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned since as I haven't had time to go through everything that's been posted in detail, but is it the case that Russia offers citizenship extraterritorially and players with such citizenship are eligible to play for Russia? What player are you referring to exactly? Excuse my ignorance, ha. I don't think the IFA have a leg to stand on here, but this would only compound it in the minds of those in FIFA. It's just an unfortunate reality for them. Irish nationality is an indisputable and internationally-agreed birthright of those born in the north.This is a purely hypothetical scenario. Basically in the immediate post Soviet era, Latvia and Estonia would not grant citizenship to anyone born in their country that could not speak fluently the national language. Consequently, the only citizenship open for most ethnic Russians was Russian citizenship. Many Russians in the Baltic states were third generation, but others went further. As the countries entered the EU this has changed and perhaps the Russian citizenship laws have changed too, but with the hoo-hah over a Soviet statue last year and Putin and co.s general agitation, ethnic Russians have not entered into the spirit of taking on a new citizenship. You can also pull in parts of Eastern Ukraine into this scenario, especially the Crimean Peninsular that was never a part of Ukraine and was only put into the Soviet Republic in 1945 by the undemocratically elected Politburo.

Bosnia is another matter. Many Serbs there have refused to have anything to do with the Bosnian state, and in light of Kosovo, I think it is only a matter of time before Srpska either declares independence or 'rejoins' Serbia.

What the citizen requirements are of both these countries are, I'm not sure about. As an aside, I believe Hungary no longer recognises citizenship extra-territorially, although up to recently they did (I know a Serbian-Hungarian who has citizenship solely through this). I'm not sure about Germany but certainly until the new century, it would grant citizenship to ethnic Germans - including some from Kazakhstan whose ancestors settled there during the reign of Catherine the Great (1762 - 1796), and the Hamish Community in the US - more readily than anyone born in Germany with no German connections.

Point is, Ireland is not the only country with minorities outside the state. How will the IFA appeal play with some other countries?

[DannyInvincible]

Cheers, lopez. Interesting post. Is there any precedent for this internationally that you know of though; the calling up of players born outside the jurisdiction with no immediate link to that territory through parentage or grand-parentage other than a citizenship awarded extra-territorially? Not saying there ought to be to justify the calling-up of northern-born players as Northern Ireland's constitutional status is a very rare one, if not internationally unique, but in the minds of FIFA, it might compound that there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Another interesting factor I note is that the examples you mention seem to deal with the awarding of citizenship based on ethnicity ('jus sanguinis'). Irish citizenship awarded to those from the north is slightly different though, to the best of my rather limited constitutional knowledge. It is primarily awarded 'jus soli' or by birthright (although I'm aware that the 27th constitutional amendment modified this slightly a few years ago). In effect, though, an Ulster Protestant of, say, Scottish descent or ethnicity by a few generations, or whatever you want to call it, qualifies for Irish citizenship by his birth on the island, if he'd so wish to accept such an honour, of course. :P Could an ethnic Estonian, say, with no apparent Russian ancestry be granted Russian citizenship by virtue of being born in Estonia, or does the Russian government merely offer citizenship to those who can prove Russian ethnicity beyond even their grandparents?

[Mr_Parker]

When I think about it, the IFA are not appealing the decision FIFA made, instead they are asking FIFA to uphold the decision.
What are CAS going to say except a resounding yes, that FIFA are upholding the eligibility statutes that were rewritten and accepted May 2008.

Not only do the IFA still not understand the statutes, they are using the same failed argument (that FIFA must uphold the statutes) as last time.

Spot on. That's exactly how their statement read to me too.

[Nedser]

Players do not have to prove their nationality by producing any document to satisy FIFA in order to play for a country. There is no such requirement.

So FIFA just take the players word for it? I find that hard to believe,. Can provide some source for that claim? I also clearly remember a section in Tony Cascarino's autobiography talking about having to get an Irish passport before he could play for us, you might remember too as it was highly controversial, because he made out that he bent the rules to do so.

[tetsujin1979]

what happened to Cascarino was that FIFA changed the rules. Think it was around 1994 when they said he needed an Irish passport to play for the Republic, previous to that he was fine with just a UK passport, and I think a statement from the government but he definitely didn't have an Irish passport until then. He wasn't sure he would actually be awarded a passport, but he was awarded one without any troubles. IIRC when his book was released, FIFA said that since the Irish government had awarded the passport, they considered him eligible to play for Ireland.

[Nedser]

I don't think it does muddy the waters. The issue is whether it's reasonable for someone to play for two different teams. You could apply it anywhere (the reason FIFA changed their rules was under pressure from French-speaking countries in North and West Africa who wanted to be able to pick the children or grandchildren of expats who'd already played for underage international sides in France.



It does muddy the waters, because FIFA's eligibility criteria are based on nationality, and Northern Irish "nationality" doesn't exist in law. As I previously pointed out, there are actually 2 distinct issues being debated here, the second of which is whether it's reasonable to play for 2 different teams. I actually agree with your view on that question though.



Britain's dispensation (which isn't unique, the Faroe Islands for example isn't a sovereign country) simply follows from us 'inventing' international football in the 19th. RoI doesn't have an advantage so much as an unusual* system of offering citizenship to people outside the country (* no criticism of this implied).


The Faroe Islands situation is very different. It's not a fully independent country, but is certainly more independent than NI. For example, it's not part of the EU and has its own currency.



FIFA- quite reasonably- uses the name RoI to avoid confusion, since its members include the two international teams in Ireland. They didn't invent the name- when I lived in Dublin people often referred to the country as the Republic, although I realise this is less so now.
[

Unless you are very old, you started living in Dublin after FIFA started using that term. Again this is inconsistent on FIFA's part, and comes down to the UK's special position of power. AFAIK, Ireland is the only country in the world whose international football team has to be different to the name of the state. The 2 teams on one island thing should make no difference. There are two teams in Korea, but FIFA calls both by their official names. They do not use the common terms "South Korea" and "North Korea" - they use "Korea Republic" and "Korea Democratic Peoples Republic". No need to avoid confusion there apparently. Presumably because the UK government didn't put any pressure on them about that one.

[sligobhoy67]

1. These are Irish men wanting to play for Ireland! They have as much right as anyone in Donegal, Dublin or Dingle to play for THEIR country. Have people from the south of the country really developed such a "Free State mindset" these days?

2. The Northern Ireland say they want to keep these players but they do nothing what so ever accommodate them - infact they have done the opposite - they introduce blue highlights to there home shirt, the continue to use the Ulster Banner flag as "their flag" despite it being a symbol of Loyalism in the six counties and they continue to sing God Save the Queen prior to games!!

As long as they want to play for us they should be welcomed and encouraged.

If they IFA want to continue likes its a "Protestant country for a Protestant people" then who can blame these kids??

[Mr_Parker]

So FIFA just take the players word for it? I find that hard to believe,. Can provide some source for that claim?

You want me to provide evidence of something that does not happen? :rolleyes:

The closest you get is when players are required to prove their identity, not their nationality, to the match delegate as per match regulations. FIFA require a passport for this purpose. However, that does not need to be the passport relating to the particular country you are playing for as confirmed by FIFA in 2006 following the Irish Governments intervention when the IFA tried to force NI players to carry British Passports.

The only time a player/association may be required to prove nationality is if an opposing team challenge the eligibity of a player following a game.