Player eligibility row

[Charlie Darwin]

I wonder if there will be as many pedants at the match as there are around here.

I don't think "Come on you boys in the darker shade of green" rolls off the tongue as well as the current chant.

"Dan dan danana danana Republicofireland!"

[EalingGreen]

However I'd worry that we me may encounter some of the hooligans that came to Dublin when Glentoran were here recently.Can't comment on that game, since I wasn't there.


Or indeed those that fought with the Polish in BelfastCan comment on this, since I was there. The simple fact is, all the aggression and provocation etc came from a small hooligan section of the Polish support, as evidenced by the arrests and the Court convictions, and acknowledged by the PSNI and the local Polish Community Association representatives and (by implication) by FIFA, whose match observers took no action against the IFA.
Of course, you might know that, too, had you been there (and had the integrity to acknowledge it, which I doubt).

Anyhow, I, too, hope that the ROI/NI game passes off peacefully, though I am not so confident, since I fear it has the capacity to attract scumbags from both Belfast & Dublin etc, who may attach themselves to "their" respective teams for the day.

Let's hope the Gardai can both identify any troublemakers early and mete out whatever "summary justice" they see fit.

[ifk101]

I was not "twisting" anything - that was KK/Endgame. As for my references to Cliftonville, those were merely to refute KK/Endgame's slur that WP is a "no go" area for Nationalists, by pointing out that a predominantly Nationalist-supported club can happily play European games there, even during the height of the 'Marching Season'.
Ditto KK/Endgame's allegations of "loyalist bias" at the IFA etc, where I pointed out their assistance to C'ville.
As for my having a "sly dig" at their fans, that was not my point*, but even if it were, what would that have to do with you? You a big fan of the Wee Reds or IL football these days? Why do you take exception to my posts, whilst ignoring those of a stirrer like KK?

Cliftonville chose the Oval as their choice of venue. Circumstances dictated that Windsor was where the match would/ was played. Again you had a sly little dig about nationalist going to Windsor - whatever. I haven't seen you post on the Irish League forum btw. Again I didn't click on KK's link - I know better ;)


* - Fyi, I have nothing for/against C'ville or their fans; in fact I was pleased for them for last night's victory

High five.


You don't appear to uinderstand the difference between "reasoned" and "reasonable". When I said my reply to KK was "reasoned", I meant that I gave reasons to support my case. Of course it is for others to decide for themselves whether that case is reasonable (valid) or not.

Was it reasoned to bring Cliftonville into the conversation? Anyways Cliftonville wouldn't be the first club I (and I presume others) think of in Belfast with a nationalist leaning.


Are you implying that I am not a "genuine NI fan"?

No.


Other posters (eg Lionel R, Danny I, Co.Down Green, AWEC, Mr. Parker etc) have replied to my posts with informed, reasoned opinions of their own, some of which support me, others which don't (fair enough).
Whereas your most recent posts on this thread (#'s 975, 982, 984), are all barely concealed ad hominem attacks on me, which otherwise contribute precisely nothing to the debate. Then again, since you apparently know sod-all about football in Belfast etc, that should hardly be any surprise.

I'm no expert EG, hence why I asked questions to learn more. I take it from your failure to answer them that you're no expert either.


If I thought KK was merely "fishing" by posting that Endgame tripe, I would, indeed, leave it. But it is clear from his other NI-related posts that he entirely agrees with the prejudiced bile contained therein.
Even then I might be prepared to leave it at that, since it is obvious that no amount of reasoning or evidence is likely to change his particular closed mind.
However, there are other, less informed Members of this Board who might be casually persuaded by such rants, to one degree or another.
Therefore, I choose to reply to KK, as a means of "setting straight the record" (as I see it).
Meanwhile, you appear to have no informed view on the "record", but pile in with your posts anyhow...

I don't always agree with you EG. No.


I will "be" whatever way I like. But however that may be, I will try to practice what I preach.
Speaking of which, I note that you continue to contradict your own "preaching", by neither reporting me to the Mods, nor adding me to your "Ignore List".

You have your own forum to play on. If you don't want me commenting on your posts, don't post in the forum(s) I read. You can add me to your ignore list if you so wish. Cheerio.

[awec]

Cliftonville are the biggest club whose support is predominantly nationalist, so they would be most people's first thought when thinking along those lines.

You're the one who keeps trying to make some point about him having a go at cville, when he clearly isn't.

[ifk101]

Cliftonville are the biggest club whose support is predominantly nationalist, so they would be most people's first thought when thinking along those lines.

Well it's a matter of opinion I suppose.


You're the one who keeps trying to make some point about him having a go at cville, when he clearly isn't.


Strange one, that, all the more since whilst WP is accessible/acceptable to them as Reds fans, it somehow ceases to become so (as Nationalists) when NI play there.

I beg(gar) to differ. :D

[Den Perry]

Can't comment on that game, since I wasn't there.

Can comment on this, since I was there. The simple fact is, all the aggression and provocation etc came from a small hooligan section of the Polish support, as evidenced by the arrests and the Court convictions, and acknowledged by the PSNI and the local Polish Community Association representatives and (by implication) by FIFA, whose match observers took no action against the IFA.
Of course, you might know that, too, had you been there (and had the integrity to acknowledge it, which I doubt).

Anyhow, I, too, hope that the ROI/NI game passes off peacefully, though I am not so confident, since I fear it has the capacity to attract scumbags from both Belfast & Dublin etc, who may attach themselves to "their" respective teams for the day.

Let's hope the Gardai can both identify any troublemakers early and mete out whatever "summary justice" they see fit.

And there is no history of wrongful arrest,wrongful conviction in NI?

Of course, I wasn't there. What business would I have there.....?

[ArdeeBhoy]

However, just to demonstrate what a pr1ck the Author really is, in order to justify his naked prejudice, he originally claimed that "The stadium Windsor Park is located in the heart of Loyalist East [sic] Belfast".

But when someone/something drew his attention to his geographical ignorance, rather than acknowledge his mistake, or excise the comment completely, he replaced it with: "The stadium Windsor Park is located in a staunchly loyalist area of Belfast etc"

Perhaps he hoped we wouldn't notice? :rolleyes:

P.S. For information, WP is in South Belfast, which is the most mixed (and middle-class) area of the entire city. And although one side of the Stadium backs onto a Loyalist enclave called the Village, all the main approaches to Windsor (car, bus, foot etc) are from other directions, which is why in 40 years of attending matches, I have never once chosen or had to go through the Village.

Hmm. Would almost say Pairc Saxe-Coburg Gotha almost has a central location, given it's around 1 mile? max.from the centre of Beal-feirste?
Been into the S.Beal-feirste N.of I.S.C.(almost incognito) but never ventured into The Village, though I do hear it's full of idiots! ;)
And on my visits there to the ground, have been via the Malone Road which is about as middle-class as it comes (There seems to be no flag fascination there!!)....


As for Cliftonville, if they were seriously going to Linfield then they may as well go to Casement.....

Finally, it's the usual gross hypocrisy of EG & his ilk to moan about their digs at C'ville when they continue to use the 'B' word (& worse) so liberally...... :rolleyes:

[Charlie Darwin]

You realise you're the only person who calls it Pairc Saxe-Coburg Gotha, right? And nobody will ever follow your lead?

[DannyInvincible]

I thought it was quite witty.

[awec]

Hmm. Would almost say Pairc Saxe-Coburg Gotha almost has a central location, given it's around 1 mile? max.from the centre of Beal-feirste?
Been into the S.Beal-feirste N.of I.S.C.(almost incognito) but never ventured into The Village, though I do hear it's full of idiots! ;)
And on my visits there to the ground, have been via the Malone Road which is about as middle-class as it comes (There seems to be no flag fascination there!!)....


As for Cliftonville, if they were seriously going to Linfield then they may as well go to Casement.....

Finally, it's the usual gross hypocrisy of EG & his ilk to moan about their digs at C'ville when they continue to use the 'B' word (& worse) so liberally...... :rolleyes:

Windsor Park is in the heart of South Belfast. It's certainly not "central" Belfast.

The Village is a bit of a kip that has suffered from under-investment. There is some student accomodation in it, but it would be amongst the cheapest, most run down student accomodation available. Windsor backs onto the very edge of it, it's not as if it's right in the middle of it all.

The Malone Road is majority nationalist these days (which shouldn't surprise you as South Belfast is very mixed and the most upper class part of the city), but as you say it's all posh well-to-do families. This road also has a high student population.

Why would Cliftonville choose a GAA stadium over a football one? Seems a bit nuts that. It's on the Andersontown Road anyway, certainly wouldn't be the most welcoming place to bring visitors.

[awec]

Some people need to wise up and get off the offended bus and stop this "you had a sly dig at us nationalist cliftonville fans". He did nothing of the sort.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Windsor Park is in the heart of South Belfast. It's certainly not "central" Belfast.



Why would Cliftonville choose a GAA stadium over a football one? Seems a bit nuts that. It's on the Andersontown Road anyway, certainly wouldn't be the most welcoming place to bring visitors.

OK, Beal-feirste is a smallish city, but a mile from the centre is hardly a vast distance. Surely Malone is S.Beal-feirste proper?
And wasn't P S-CG formerly (if not still?) in the West Beal-feirste constituency??

As for Casement, at least it's in a nationalist area not too far from P S-CG, which is probably preferable to most of the C'ville's fans......

Finally re. the name being 'original', CD, seem to remember it popping up on various fora, going back over the last decade! ;)

[Nedser]

By referring to your team as "Ireland", you are having a dig at my team, therefore me. For whilst I normally accept the (incorrect but) casual use of "Ireland" on threads like these when referring to the FAI team generally, when it is placed directly alongside the NI team, it is quite simply wrong (and irritating).

Seeing as it is actually easier, quicker and more correct to post "ROI" (and NI), it is arguably you who is being pedantic, by insisting on "Ireland".

Funny how EG is obsessed with ensuring that everyone uses the official FIFA-endorsed name for the football team (Republic of Ireland), yet when he refers to the independent country that it represents, he refuses to use the official, internationally recognised name for that country (Ireland). For example, see his repeated references to the supposed irredentist citizenship policy of "the Republic of Ireland".

The reality is, it's perfectly natural for people to use the same name for their country and the team that represents it. Sadly, FIFA took the unprecedented decision to prevent the FAI from calling its international football team by the same name as the internationally-accepted name for the country that it represents.

Of course, FIFA took that decision because the UK associations abused their (undemocratic) position of power within FIFA to ensure they did so. If there had been a Court of Arbitration for Sport in 1953, when FIFA made that ruling, I'm pretty sure it would have been overturned. If you try to look at it objectively, the situation was as follows:
- Two distinct teams wanted to call themselves "Ireland"
- One of those teams represented an independent country called "Ireland"
- The other represented a region known as "Northern Ireland", which lies within a country called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

It's pretty obvious that one team was perfectly entitled to call itself "Ireland" and the other was not.

Anyway, if EG wants to use only officially "correct" names all round, then that's up to him. But if he continues to use "ROI" for both the football team and the country, then he's just a hypocrite. Either way, nothing that FIFA or EG say is going to change the terminology I use - as I see it, I come from a country called Ireland, so I will continue to call my national football team "Ireland".

[seanfhear]

Arguing over a name is a bit pedantic IMO, live and let live.

My worry is when NI play the ROI, there'll be hangers on from both sides who'll do their best to darken the name of both countries and ruin what would be a fantastic day for all genuine supporters.

Hopefully I'm wrong though.I too am afraid that it will attract the idiots from both sides.

Could someone not organise a parade or something for that day so that the idiots from both sides would have their normal idiotic roles to play and stay away from the football please.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Good shout Nedser...
Though I suspect the IFA name issue will be kicked back into play.

[Gather round]

I would gladly take 3 hammerings in the Celtic...cup if we could be guaranteed that we'd be in Poland/Ukraine for the finals of a really important tournament in June 2012. So I don't think it will really settle too much on the pitch next year when we play. We have 2 huge games v Macedonia in the first half of 2011 and some friendlies

I think the difference may be that most NI and Wales fans (and a fair proportion of the Scots) don't seriously expect to qualify. Which makes a revived four-hander more attractive. Including to the OWC hardhore, however p*ssed off with the FAI they may be at the moment.


And there is no history of wrongful arrest,wrongful conviction in NI?

Of course, I wasn't there. What business would I have there.....?

Ha ha, top quality whataboutery there ;)


Hmm. Would almost say Pairc Saxe-Coburg Gotha almost has a central location, given it's around 1 mile? max.from the centre of Beal-feirste?

If you said that, you'd be wrong. It's about two miles by road.


Been into the S.Beal-feirste N.of I.S.C.(almost incognito)

Let me guess. You were quite content to enjoy your pint and chat to the locals until getting bored and outing yourself as that sh*t-stirrer on the internet?


but never ventured into The Village, though I do hear it's full of idiots!

Don't believe all you hear. It has- has long had- a largely transient population. Students, nurses from nearby hospitals, refugees and so on.


And on my visits there to the ground, have been via the Malone Road which is about as middle-class as it comes (There seems to be no flag fascination there!!)....

Aye, you almost certainly entered from Windsor Ave or one of the parallel streets which run across the Lisburn Road to the ground.


The reality is, it's perfectly natural for people to use the same name for their country and the team that represents it

Indeed. The only logical solution is for you to rename the country (don't write in, I'm joking).


Sadly, FIFA took the unprecedented decision to prevent the FAI from calling its international football team by the same name as the internationally-accepted name for the country that it represents

When I lived in Dublin as a student (early 80s), many locals referred to the country as the Republic. I realise they don't now, these things can change over time. But as AWEC suggests above, it's not really that big a deal. Many people in NI (mainly but not exclusively unionists) get a bit irritated at 'Ireland' being equated with just the Republic, but we should probably just get over it. Ditto people in the Republic who don't like being referred to as the South. There are similar examples elsewhere- province of Luxembourg in Belgium on the border, for example.


If there had been a Court of Arbitration for Sport in 1953, when FIFA made that ruling, I'm pretty sure it would have been overturned

Who knows? Maybe the court would have applied that most basic legal principle, to ignore trivia. As you say, pretty much everyone Worldwide now calls the Republic Ireland or the local language equivalent. Even in Britain, even the Daily Telegraph. It's only really a problem if you insist that everyone in Northern Ireland does too, because in practice they won't and we'll all be upsetting ourselves unnecessarily.


I too am afraid that it will attract the idiots from both sides.

Could someone not organise a parade or something for that day so that the idiots from both sides would have their normal idiotic roles to play and stay away from the football please

Ha ha. You're a bad man ;)

Like others above, I don't want to exaggerate the likelihood of trouble at the game. In reality, a match against England or Northern Ireland (or at a pinch, Scotland and nowadays France) in Dublin will have a tenser atmosphere than most, and you'd expect the Gardai to plan and Police accordingly.

[gspain]

BTW Windsor Park had it's name before the British Royal family took the name Windsor.

[ArdeeBhoy]

If you said that, you'd be wrong. It's about two miles by road.

OK, 2 miles from say City Hall, but a mile as in from the edge of the centre.



Let me guess. You were quite content to enjoy your pint and chat to the locals until getting bored and outing yourself as that sh*t-stirrer on the internet?

Presumably you are being ironic about the sh*t-stirring bot, re. your good self? Lol.
As for outing myself, that only came about when slagging off David Healy for being useless in club football. And an even more useless individual, known to many on here, crossing himself.....


When I lived in Dublin as a student (early 80s), many locals referred to the country as the Republic.

Hmm. Yeah, right.

Funny how time plays tricks with the memory!

Barely anyone in Ireland has ever used the phrase the 'Republic', except maybe a few Dubs over the years, in a soccer context. And a few English people perhaps more widely, though now they mainly say Ireland and the North/Northern Ireland.

[Nedser]

Who knows? Maybe the court would have applied that most basic legal principle, to ignore trivia. As you say, pretty much everyone Worldwide now calls the Republic Ireland or the local language equivalent. Even in Britain, even the Daily Telegraph. It's only really a problem if you insist that everyone in Northern Ireland does too, because in practice they won't and we'll all be upsetting ourselves unnecessarily.

It goes a bit beyond what "pretty much everyone Worldwide now calls" it ....... the name of the country as defined in it its own constitution is "Ireland", the name recognised by the EU is "Ireland" (see http://europa.eu/about-eu/27-member-countries/countries/index_en.htm), the name recognised by the UN is "Ireland" (see http://www.un.org/en/members/index.shtml#i). It's even the name used by the "British" (sic) embassy in Ireland (http://britishembassyinireland.fco.gov.uk/en/). I could go on. Bottom line - it's not just a colloquialism, it's the internationally recognised official name of the country. Having said that, I have no intention of insisting that unionists from Northern Ireland or anywhere else use the correct name - they can choose to use whatever words they like, and at the end of the day, there are far bigger things to get wound up about.

[awec]

OK, Beal-feirste is a smallish city, but a mile from the centre is hardly a vast distance. Surely Malone is S.Beal-feirste proper?
And wasn't P S-CG formerly (if not still?) in the West Beal-feirste constituency??

As for Casement, at least it's in a nationalist area not too far from P S-CG, which is probably preferable to most of the C'ville's fans......

Finally re. the name being 'original', CD, seem to remember it popping up on various fora, going back over the last decade! ;)

No? It's South Belfast. The Malone Road is south belfast and the Lisburn Road (which Windsor is just off) runs along side it.

I doubt you'd find many Cliftonville fans who'd prefer to play at Casement than Windsor.


BTW Windsor Park had it's name before the British Royal family took the name Windsor.

It's named after the area of Belfast.

[Acornvilla]

i stopped reading this months ago, why the hell is it still being discussed?

[awec]

i stopped reading this months ago, why the hell is it still being discussed?
Someone posted and agreed with a blog post that painted NI fans as super-hardline loyalist terrorist supporting bigots and that Windsor is a no-go to nationalists etc etc.

Obviously, people took issue with this.

[Predator]

i stopped reading this months ago, why the hell is it still being discussed?
The issue here is an ongoing one which has not yet been resolved. I suppose that is the reason why it is still being discussed (even though it often veers, sometimes dramatically, off-topic).

The CAS case is being heard on Monday.

[Predator]

So, Monday is the day of the hearing. Will CAS announce their decision on Monday also, or will that come after a period of deliberation over the facts and circumstances presented to them by the IFA? If so, any idea how long this process might take?

The CAS website states the following is scheduled:



Presumably the FAI, Daniel Kearns and FIFA are sending representatives as well to argue against the IFA's case or is that even a requirement?
The whole thing is shrouded in mystery. I'm on the edge of my seat in anticipation.

[Gather round]

Hmm. Yeah, right...Funny how time plays tricks with the memory!

Barely anyone in Ireland has ever used the phrase the 'Republic'

My memory may be fading after 25 odd years, although I suspect it's more reliable than that of someone who hasn't actually lived in the country since they were three.


It goes a bit beyond what "pretty much everyone Worldwide now calls" it

It doesn't actually, they amount to the same thing in practice. The only place where the name of the Republic of Ireland is an issue is in Northern Ireland. This shouldn't be a surprise, there are plenty of similar examples elsewhere. For example, pretty much everyone else Worldwide refers to Bruges and Ypres, apart from the people who live there. Pretty much no-one outside Ireland cares, or even knows, what's in the constitution or some arcane court judgement. Or even some Raheny judgement. By repeating all that stuff, you are just echoing EG's original grumble.

[Mr_Parker]

BTW Windsor Park had it's name before the British Royal family took the name Windsor.

And the "windsor" comes from where?

Anyway, I think to many are caught up in the location of the ground. That is not what most Nationalists who refuse to darken its doors and support NI would point to as their reason, it is only one of many.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I doubt you'd find many Cliftonville fans who'd prefer to play at Casement than Windsor.
Ha ha, if you say so. Have you actually asked any, presuming you even know any Cliftonville fans??
The few I do, would certainly be Anywhere but P S-C G.


My memory may be fading after 25 odd years, although I suspect it's more reliable than that of someone who hasn't actually lived in the country since they were three.



It doesn't actually, they amount to the same thing in practice. The only place where the name of the Republic of Ireland is an issue is in Northern Ireland. This shouldn't be a surprise, there are plenty of similar examples elsewhere. For example, pretty much everyone else Worldwide refers to Bruges and Ypres, apart from the people who live there. Pretty much no-one outside Ireland cares, or even knows, what's in the constitution or some arcane court judgement.

Hmm. Obviously issues of geography, numeracy and amnesia all need to be addressed, in combination with the usual attempt at revisionism. Lol.
And your 'examples' similarly make no sense!

[gspain]

And the "windsor" comes from where?

Anyway, I think to many are caught up in the location of the ground. That is not what most Nationalists who refuse to darken its doors and support NI would point to as their reason, it is only one of many.

Called after the area.

I suspect the main reason most nationalists support the Republic is political. The relative succes of the RoI in the past 22 years is also a big influence.

Actually as I normally drive to games in my southern registered car I'd be much more likely to go to Windsor on a whim (as I did last Wednesday) than go to the Oval or Seaview. I've
never had a problem at either ground but would be more wary parking there but only based on observing the area and not on anything I've seen or heard.

[ifk101]

I suspect the main reason most nationalists support the Republic is political.

Odd comment. Surely they support "the Republic" for the same reasons you do as you drive around in your Southern registered car?

[Charlie Darwin]

Is there something special about his car that makes him a better Ireland fan?

[awec]

And the "windsor" comes from where?

Anyway, I think to many are caught up in the location of the ground. That is not what most Nationalists who refuse to darken its doors and support NI would point to as their reason, it is only one of many.
Bahahahahaa!

You must love how you can ask questions here and people on this forum don't know that you already know the answer. :D

Folks, if you must know just ONE thing about Parker, it's this:

He never asks a question he doesn't know the answer to.

:D

[ArdeeBhoy]

Spot on there ifk.

And the 'humour' of unionists from the North is way too cryptic, if that last post is anything to go by!
;)

[Mr_Parker]

Called after the area.
I know that, but where did the area inherit its name from?


Called after the area.
I suspect the main reason most nationalists support the Republic is political.

True. They are Irish afterall. http://www.irishleaguesupporters.com/forums/images/smilies/shocked.gif

[Mr_Parker]

Bahahahahaa!

You must love how you can ask questions here and people on this forum don't know that you already know the answer. :D

Folks, if you must know just ONE thing about Parker, it's this:

He never asks a question he doesn't know the answer to.

:D

You don't know me that well then. :)

[awec]

I know that, but where did the area inherit its name from?



True. They are Irish afterall. http://www.irishleaguesupporters.com/forums/images/smilies/shocked.gif

The area was called that before the current Royal Family adopted the Windsor name.


You don't know me that well then. :)

Oh, we know you only too well Parker. :D

[DannyInvincible]

"No disrespect to Northern Ireland, but I would rather be playing for my country." – Shane Duffy.

"It's the best honour you can get to represent your country – it's always been a dream of mine to play for Ireland." – Marc Wilson.

"It was unbelievable you know, making the debut for your country. Everyone from Derry wants to play for Ireland. I grew up supporting Ireland, so it was a natural choice for me." – Darron Gibson.

One thing that I really have very little time for, because I find it quite insulting - not just for players who make "the switch", but also on a personal level because it implicitly questions or mocks the inalienable right of those nearest and dearest to me to have themselves simply recognised as Irish - is this sly, sneering and patronising crap of nit-picking or scoffing at the self-professed identity of northern-born players who wish to represent Ireland, their country, our country all, and the particular ways in which they express their sense of Irish nationality.

OWC (I mention it because it's where this debate appears more livid than anywhere else) is full of what I've mentioned above when an Irish northern-born player mentions how he identifies as/feels/considers himself Irish, as if to suggest these guys - characterised as clueless idiots, because surely they couldn't be anything else if they're seriously trying to suggest they're Irish after having been born and played a bit of football in the north, right?! - aren't 100 per cent certain of their own nationality to "be" it rather than "merely" "feel" it or "identify" with it, and as if to in turn suggest that there is some dubiousness as to the effect of Irish nationality law throughout the island. There's this implication that because these players merely express that they "feel" Irish, they're somehow not genuinely Irish or they're cod Irish.

Just because someone mentions that they "feel" Irish doesn't mean their actual Irish nationality is in doubt nor is it some sort of unwitting admission that they aren't actually Irish. The two are not mutually exclusive. To speak personally, I both am Irish and I feel Irish. I would very much imagine that it's the same for these players. Whether they've played youth football within the Northern Ireland set-up has no bearing on that reality at all. Furthermore, there is nothing dubious or suspect about the application of Irish nationality law over the whole island. If Irish nationality law is not being dismissed as slack or overly-liberal by certain NI fans (I’m looking at you ‘fhtb’, and I know you read this, you absolute ignoramus), then you can be sure it's being chastised as irredentist and provocative (Still looking in the same direction.). These are various descriptions I have seen accorded to it straight from OWC. What a load of complete and utter rubbish. Irish nationality law has unambiguous effect over this whole island and this effect is entirely transparent and legitimate. Its effect is bilaterally agreed and was expressly approved in the GFA by the UK and a democratic majority within the north.

It just seems there is this ingrained or subconscious desire amongst certain NI fans to look down upon the nationalist/Catholic community in the north and think of them as misguided pretenders who, if not "owning up" to the supposed reality that they are Northern Irish/British, don’t really have a genuine or legitimate national identity. Of course, this all goes towards subtly reinforcing the prejudiced view within NI that the Northern Irish state as it exists is not for these "dissenters"; that it's solely British and they ought to owe it their allegiance.

I genuinely thought we’d moved on from all of the above crap, but it’s patently obvious we haven’t from the brief interactions I’ve been permitted to have on OWC.

Even the ignorance (surely feigned) of Worthington when he pondered, "'I find it difficult to understand that a player doesn't want to play for Northern Ireland", was mind-boggling. Even his hypocrisy then was blatant; claiming he wished the likes of Shane Duffy no acrimony in his switch right after declaring he'd be fully backing the IFA in any legal battle to try and halt, seemingly, all northern-born players (even those with parentage and grand-parentage from the south), Duffy included, from declaring for Ireland.

I look forward to Monday. Or whenever it is CAS publish their decision and tell the IFA to get lost.

[Nedser]

It doesn't actually, they amount to the same thing in practice.

Not really. Most people refer to the USA as simply "America", but that's not the official name of the country. Similarly, a lot of people refer to the UK as "Britain" (or even "England"!), and the Netherlands as "Holland". So it's clear that the name most commonly used and the official name are not necessarily the same. However, as it happens, in the case of Ireland, they are the same.


Pretty much no-one outside Ireland cares, or even knows, what's in the constitution or some arcane court judgement. Or even some Raheny judgement. By repeating all that stuff, you are just echoing EG's original grumble.

I agree pretty much no-one outside Ireland cares/knows now - although it should be noted that the UK govt seems to have cared a lot up until the relatively recent past - the lengths they went to to try to prevent people using the name "Ireland" are well documented. It seems they succeeded in the EG household, if not in many other quarters!

I don't recall referring to any court judgement, arcane or otherwise, to support my point, so not sure what you mean by that. In any case, I fully intended to echo EG's grumble. I was pointing out his hypocrisy in objecting to people using an "incorrect" name for the football team even though he knowingly uses an incorrect name for the country that the same football team represents. I've already said I don't care whether people use the correct name or not, my point is simply that EG can't have it both ways.

[Gather round]

"
No disrespect to Northern Ireland, but I would rather be playing for my country

Fine, although NI's his country too, having lived in it for 17 years and er, played for its representative teams. I think Danny and others can see why many NI fans are irritated, not that I'm condoning the hysteria or abuse directed at Duffy and generally.


One thing that I really have very little time for, because I find it quite insulting - not just for players who make "the switch", but also on a personal level because it implicitly questions or mocks the inalienable right of those nearest and dearest to me to have themselves simply recognised as Irish

See above, there's no place for abuse. But let's not get carried away. Everyone recognises you and your kin as Irish.


OWC (I mention it because it's where this debate appears more livid than anywhere else) is full of what I've mentioned above when an Irish northern-born player

All NI-born (players) are Irish. I'm 100% Irish, just like you.


Whether they've played youth football within the Northern Ireland set-up has no bearing on that reality at all

As I've mentioned a few times, whether they've played for NI representative teams as adults would do.


Furthermore, there is nothing dubious or suspect about the application of Irish nationality law over the whole island. If Irish nationality law is not being dismissed as slack or overly-liberal by certain NI fans... then you can be sure it's being chastised as irredentist and provocative (Still looking in the same direction.). These are various descriptions I have seen accorded to it straight from OWC. What a load of complete and utter rubbish. Irish nationality law has unambiguous effect over this whole island and this effect is entirely transparent and legitimate. Its effect is bilaterally agreed and was expressly approved in the GFA by the UK and a democratic majority within the north

There are plenty of dubious aspects about its application, and others worthy of debate, maybe elsewhere. Just to repeat a couple briefly- it looks odd that the Republic will happily offer citizenship to pretty much everyone in NI, but won't automatically do so for everyone born in the South. As confirmed by nearly 80% in a recent constitutional referendum. As for the irredentism (although I think the name's overblown), it's still there. Every political institution in the South has reuniting Ireland as a major theoretical objective, even if we all know you won't see them for dust if it ever becomes even a remote posibility in practice.


It just seems there is this ingrained or subconscious desire amongst certain NI fans to look down upon the nationalist/Catholic community in the north and think of them as misguided pretenders who, if not "owning up" to the supposed reality that they are Northern Irish/British, don’t really have a genuine or legitimate national identity

Mopery alert. Many in Northern Ireland have ingrained prejudices, some are football fans. While OWC (like foot.ie) offers a wide range of opinion, often beyond football, I wouldn't overstate their significance.


Of course, this all goes towards subtly reinforcing the prejudiced view within NI that the Northern Irish state as it exists is not for these "dissenters"; that it's solely British and they ought to owe it their allegiance

This is a bit over the top, Danny. Wanting guys from Derry or Newry to play for NI doesn't quite equate to exclude dsisenters, deny their nationalism or whatever.


I genuinely thought we’d moved on from all of the above crap, but it’s patently obvious we haven’t from the brief interactions I’ve been permitted to have on OWC

Has FHTB banned you then? Look, we feel your pain, but it isn't the end of the World. Just re-register. Ardee Bhoy will lend you one of his numerous aliases. Just remember to use the phrases 'paranoid planters' and 'medieval theme park' in every post and you'll be fine.


I look forward to Monday. Or whenever it is CAS publish their decision and tell the IFA to get lost

I don't, the ****storm will likely block up the internet like an electronic Krakatoa. Although I'm sure you're right about the likely verdict. Thank fcuk it's the cricket season.

[Gather round]

However, as it happens, in the case of Ireland, they are the same

So we're agreed then.


although it should be noted that the UK govt seems to have cared a lot up until the relatively recent past - the lengths they went to to try to prevent people using the name "Ireland" are well documented

Really? Do you have some brief links?


I don't recall referring to any court judgement, arcane or otherwise, to support my point, so not sure what you mean by that

Apologies, I was exaggerating a bit for effect. My point was simply that people in Djakarta or Djibuti call the Republic 'Ireland' because it's common/ convenient, not because of what's in the UN or local constitution. As I said, the only place where it's an issue is NI, where we'll point out that the South is only part of Ireland. Just like England is merely part of Britain, as per your own example.


In any case, I fully intended to echo EG's grumble...I've already said I don't care whether people use the correct name or not

OK, with you now. Grumble away ;)

[gspain]

Originally Posted by gspain
I suspect the main reason most nationalists support the Republic is political.


Odd comment. Surely they support "the Republic" for the same reasons you do as you drive around in your Southern registered car?

Not sure what my car has to do with it.

The point I was trying to make was that most nationalists support the Republic because they identify with the Republic so our team as the team that is
closest to their political beliefs of a United Ireland. It is not down to the fact that the NI side is not inclusive oir that Windsor Park is supposedly a no go area.
A team playing under the tricolour out of Dublin with A na b as our anthem is more in tune with nationalism even than one playing in green with a Celtic Cross on their shirts.

I'm not trying to wind anybody up here btw, I fully support the right oif anybody from NI to consider themselves Irish and I'm delighted Shane Duffy, Darron Gibson et al
have declared for us,

[Mr_Parker]

The area was called that before the current Royal Family adopted the Windsor name.
Yes and?



Oh, we know you only too well Parker. :D

Would that be the royal 'we'? :)

[ArdeeBhoy]

All NI-born (players) are Irish. I'm 100% Irish, just like you.

Ha Ha, that's why all those 'Irish' unionists carry round Brit.passports and obsess about how British they are.....
May a higher power help those on the mainland when they rock-up there.


There are plenty of dubious aspects about its application, and others worthy of debate, maybe elsewhere. Just to repeat a couple briefly- it looks odd that the Republic will happily offer citizenship to pretty much everyone in NI, but won't automatically do so for everyone born in the South.
Every political institution in the South has reuniting Ireland as a major theoretical objective, even if we all know you won't see them for dust if it ever becomes even a remote posibility in practice.
Where is this 'South' then?? :confused:
Perhaps the reluctance was due to a small country worrying about an influx of foreigners, which I wouldn't agree with personally, but perhaps there was reticence due to the issue of potentially accomodating a large no.of dysfunctional aliens with a fascination for bowler hats, red-white-and-blue flags and "walking the Queen's highway"....
:eek:


Has FHTB banned you then? Just re-register. Ardee Bhoy will lend you one of his numerous aliases. Just remember to use the phrases 'paranoid planters' and 'medieval theme park' in every post and you'll be fine.
Hmm, Hypocrisy & amnesia (again) Alert! Lol.
Once again, the PI (Paranoia Index) needs tweaking. Not to mention that of accuracy!!!



I suspect the main reason most nationalists support the Republic is political.
Not sure what my car has to do with it.
The point I was trying to make was that most nationalists support the Republic because they identify with the Republic so our team as the team that is closest to their political beliefs of a United Ireland. It is not down to the fact that the NI side is not inclusive oir that Windsor Park is supposedly a no go area.

A team playing under the tricolour out of Dublin with A na b as our anthem is more in tune with nationalism even than one playing in green with a Celtic Cross on their shirts.


To answer the above.
Yes. You mentioned Irish plates.

The North's team is inclusive (What would be said if it was 11 Nats from W.Beal-feirste though?) if you believe the hype, but not sure the majority of fans are or ever will be....

And thus regardless of the shirt or badge GS, Nats.will tell you it's about the foreign anthem, flag(s), songs, ground location, name calling and a plethora of other reasons why they wouldn't want to be associated under the current arrangements.

[Gather round]

]Ha Ha, that's why all those 'Irish' unionists carry round Brit.passports and obsess about how British they are...

Surely even you can grasp that we're both Irish and British? It kind of follows from part of Ireland having been part of Britain for centuries.


Perhaps the reluctance was due to a small country worrying about an influx of foreigners, which I wouldn't agree with personally

Perhaps it was a populist stunt by the then Government to create an impression of toughness on immigration, with the predictable effect of leaving many Irish born children potentially stateless? Still, glad you agree it wasn't exactly progressive.


but perhaps there was reticence due to the issue of potentially accomodating a large no.of dysfunctional aliens with a fascination for orange, red-white-and-blue flags and marching

Er, perhaps not, given that the Republic is quite prepared to give any dysfunctional Orangeman (or me, or EG. or awec) a passport. One basically contradicts the other. The difference is really that offering notional benefits to millions of people in Northern Ireland doesn't actually cost anything, while providing equal citizenship for everyone born in Dublin does, or is perceived to.


The North's team is inclusive (What would be said if it was 11 Nats from W.Beal-feirste though?) if you believe the hype

Eight or nine guys from Andytown would probably get the same reaction as eight or nine English in your side used to get, ie gentle ridicule. Ditto 11 Prods from Rathcoole, although I think most people would see this as a one-off without wider consequence if it happened in one game. I'm still fairly sure that more nationalists from NI will play internationally for us rather than you in the future, for reasons already discussed on these threads.



but not sure the majority of fans are or ever will be....


If you mean that most nationalists in NI will continue to support the South, I agree, that's fine.



And thus regardless of the shirt or badge GS, Nats.will tell you it's about the anthem, flag(s), songs, ground location and a plethora of other reasons why they wouldn't want to be associatedm under the current arrangements

I think Mr Parker's and GSpain's rather simpler explanations are more likely. They support the Republic of Ireland because they always have, and probably their ancestors did. They don't need to justify not supporting anyone else. Equally, if some of them follow your lead and constantly stir about flags, anthems and the Boucher Road contraflow system, don't be surprised if your crude bias gets answered.

PS I think GS was wondering aloud about whether Dublin plates might increase the likelihood of his car being stolen or damanged if parked aroud the Holywood and Shore Roads near Glentoran and Crusaders. I'd like to hope not.

[Predator]

Bit in The Independent (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/court-ruling-to-decide-kearns-republic-fate-2263245.html) today:

"[Kearns] will be represented by sports lawyer Gary Rice of Beauchamps Solicitors, and he has the backing of FIFA and the FAI, who will be represented by their legal director, Sarah O'Shea."


"The case will turn on CAS's interpretation of those FIFA regulations, 15, 16, 17 and 18, which relate to players' eligibility for representative teams," explained Rice.
"And once CAS decides, it is final and binding. The only appeal after that is to the Swiss Supreme Court, and that is unlikely."

"Rice anticipates a one-day hearing tomorrow. "The submissions and documents have already been read and it will only be a case of the main protagonists speaking to clarify points," he said."I'm hopeful the verdict will be announced relatively soon, but that will be up to the three arbitrators, who are chosen from a panel of leading sports jurists worldwide.""

[ifk101]

Not sure what my car has to do with it.

Exactly.


The point I was trying to make was that most nationalists support the Republic because they identify with the Republic so our team as the team that is
closest to their political beliefs of a United Ireland. It is not down to the fact that the NI side is not inclusive oir that Windsor Park is supposedly a no go area.
A team playing under the tricolour out of Dublin with A na b as our anthem is more in tune with nationalism even than one playing in green with a Celtic Cross on their shirts.

They support the team for the same reasons as you. It's not a political statement, it's an expression of nationality.


I'm not trying to wind anybody up here btw, I fully support the right oif anybody from NI to consider themselves Irish and I'm delighted Shane Duffy, Darron Gibson et al
have declared for us,

It's obvious you are not trying to wind up anybody and I'm not trying to imply that you are. But you need to remember and understand that international football is not about politics or geographical borders or place of birth etc etc etc. It's about nationality and representing/supporting your nation.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Surely even you can grasp that we're both Irish and British? It kind of follows from part of Ireland having been part of Britain for centuries.
Except that even the biggest eejit in the North can grasp that the vast majority of the population belong to one nationality or the other. There's no mainstream aspiration to hold dual citizenship! Why not ask yer own family?? Lol.

As for the other statement, it exists now only in the Unionist Revisionist history handbook. It was hardly a willing arrangement or did you not notice the last 500 years or more of protest??



Perhaps it was a populist stunt by the then Government to create an impression of toughness on immigration, with the predictable effect of leaving many Irish born children potentially stateless? Still, glad you agree it wasn't exactly progressive.

There's plenty of actions done by that government are now discredited but there's no major issue of 'statelessness' despite your 'concerns'.


Er, perhaps not, given that the Republic is quite prepared to give any dysfunctional Orangeman (or me, or EG. or awec) a passport. One basically contradicts the other. The difference is really that offering notional benefits to millions of people in Northern Ireland doesn't actually cost anything, while providing equal citizenship for everyone born in Dublin does, or is perceived to.
Except there aren't "millions" in the North and the rest of that statement makes no sense!




Eight or nine guys from Andytown would probably get the same reaction as eight or nine English in your side used to get, ie gentle ridicule. I'm still fairly sure that more nationalists from NI will play internationally for us rather than you in the future, for reasons already discussed on these threads.
Except the only people who could be remotely be described as such would be Paul Butler and perhaps Tony Cascarino. But they were both eligible for Irish passports and the former definitely has Irish heritage.
Oh and you Brits are welcome to that eejit Lawrenson.


I think Mr Parker's and GSpain's rather simpler explanations are more likely. They support the Republic of Ireland because they always have, and probably their ancestors did. They don't need to justify not supporting anyone else. Equally, if some of them follow your lead and constantly stir about flags, anthems and the Boucher Road contraflow system, don't be surprised if your crude bias gets answered.
Clearly you've not read the alternative 'reasoning' on OWB or even asked local nationalists why? And nothing to do with 'crude bias', just facts(eg. Have never mentioned local traffic arrangements!!) !
Which would be confirmed If you ever got out and asked them?

[Gather round]

Except that even the biggest eejit in the North can grasp that the vast majority of the population belong to one nationality or the other. There's no mainstream aspiration to hold dual citizenship! Why not ask yer own family?? Lol

You're (wilfully?) mising the point again. I didn't mention dual nationality. It's perfect possible for me, or anyone else from NI to have only British nationality, but clearly to be Irish. Part of Ireland is part of Britain, remember?


As for the other statement, it exists now only in the Unionist Revisionist history handbook. It was hardly a willing arrangement or did you not notice the last 500 years or more of protest??

Actually, it exists in every Northern Ireland election result for the past 90 years. They supersede some protest in 1510, 1690 or 1169, you know.


There's plenty of actions done by that government are now discredited but there's no major issue of 'statelessness' despite your 'concerns'

Are you sure? Many of the people affected (ie, those born to non-nationals in the Republic, and the parents) will likely be refugees, or unable to return to their own countries for economic or other reasons, and thus to qualify for passports there. Which must create the real risk that they'll be stateless. I'd be delighted should you offer some evidence that reassures my concerns.


Except there aren't "millions" in the North and the rest of that statement makes no sense!

1.8 million people = millions, even to a pedant like you, surely?

It's quite straightforwardly explained. It doesn't really matter whether there are two million or 20 million in NI, if the Republic generally doesn't give them (including me, potentially) the vote, social services and the like, its costs are negligible. That's not to deny the importance of what it offers to people in NI or beyond, but that's more symbolic. Whereas the Southern electorate didn't seem to agree with you about the lack of a major issue locally - else they wouldn't have welcomed Ahern's populist stunt so enthusiastically.


Except the only people who could be remotely be described as such would be Paul Butler and perhaps Tony Cascarino. But they were both eligible for Irish passports and the former definitely has Irish heritage

So what? I assumed they all had Irish lineage, but they're all English in the widely-recognised sense of having grown up and spent all/ most of their lives there, and probably in having British parents and British pasports to travel on before getting called up by the FAI. This isn't intended as a stir, just equating what happened in the recent past with your hypothetical future example. If a future NI side had eight or nine nationalists in it, or all 11 were unionists or from Stoke or Birmingham, no doubt the local media will try to create a story. But it's not that big a deal.


Clearly you've not read the alternative 'reasoning' on OWB or even asked local nationalists why? And nothing to do with 'crude bias', just facts(eg. Have never mentioned local traffic arrangements!!) !

Don't be absurd. I've challenged that reasoning on this thread, never mind OWC, as well as reading and replying to local NI nationalist fans. On this issue I agree with Mr Parker, Newryrep and others as I've said. And with GSpain, whose experience of regularly watching games in and involving NI is rather greater than your own.

Er, you were at pains to detail the layout of South and Central Belfast even after being corrected by AWEC amd I, who've actually lived there. More importantly, you seem to be telling the local RoI fans why they support as they do. They're perfectly capable of explaining it themselves.


Oh and you Brits are welcome to that eejit Lawrenson

With you on this one. Get that miserable b*gger off screen and I'll become a card-carrier for Fianna Fail and the SDLP.

[dantheman]

Jaysus, I hope Lord Widgery isn't chairing this tribunal tomorrow...

[Gather round]

Jaysus, I hope Lord Widgery isn't chairing this tribunal tomorrow...

I understand a senior FAI official will be patrolling outside the tribunal office with an Uzi, just in case.

[The Fly]

The following is a piece by Paul Rowan, in The Sunday Times.
I was unable to find a link, so I've just typed it out.


"Daniel Kearns was released by West Ham Utd several months ago, has yet to find a new club and if he does, appears destined for a career in the undergrowth of professional football, a bit like Jean-Marc Bosman.

Like Bosman, the greatest legacy of his footballing career might lie in the courts as tomorrow the CAS in Lausanne hears the case of the IFA v Daniel Kearns, the FAI and FIFA, in what has up till now been known as Gibsongate. Should the CAS decide to uphold FIFA's position that Kearns is entitled to play for ROI, even though he and his immediate relatives were born in NI and never lived in ROI, then the ruling could have a huge impact on the future of football in Ireland and a particularly negative one for the team North of the border.

The IFA is not particularly bothered about Kearns, but they feel it is a case they can win, otherwise they wouldn't have spent tens of thousands in legal fees pursuing the case this far. What stung them more was the defection of quality players such as Manchester United's Darron Gibson, Marc Wilson of Portsmouth and Everton's Shane Duffy. As NI U21 manager Steve Beaglehole put it to The Sunday Times: "They were some of our most promising players. They stay with us and then they get cherry-picked when they are making a mark at their clubs. That is when the offer comes and inevitably it is the best players that are sought after."

What frightens the likes of Beaglehole is that NI, which has already been overtaken by ROI in terms of successfully qualifying for big tournaments, might become effectively an Irish B team should it suddenly become fashionable for young players in the North to defect to the South. The defections have inevitably been from the nationalist community so far and should the trend escalate, tentative efforts to rid the sport of sectarianism in NI, would be smashed to pieces. Kearns himself holds an Irish passport and always has done. But the IFA will argue that recently introduced FIFA laws on eligibility should bar him from playing for the country that he feels is his allegiance by birthright.

Under FIFA rules, any player who has a passport for a country can represent them provided they have some link to the nation they represent.

The rule was tightened in recent years to stop abuses, particularly by Brazilians who were popping up on international teams in the Middle East after being handed passports. In Duffy's case, his parents were born in Donegal, so the IFA did not pursue that case, but they believe that Kearns is a test case they can win because his relatives were born in NI.

FIFA has already rejected this argument and if the IFA are proved wrong in Lausanne - as most people think they will be - then an increasing number of young players will be tempted to follow Kearns' path. That both associations are playing for high stakes is evident by the fact that the FAI is sending over a highly regarded senior counsel from Dublin, Paul Gardiner.

The CAS is the final arbitrator in the matter and will hear the case in camera before reserving judgement."