Player eligibility row

[backstothewall]

Its quite clear they are 2 separate organisation, and although some individuals might be members of both organisations, there is absolutely no connection between the two organisations.

Now where have I heard that kind of explanation before?

Truth is though lads, if we want young working class unionist lads to declare for us, all this OO bashing has to stop. The OO needs to change, but it is making moves in the right direction, and its absolutely right that the state should recognise that. Mary was quite right to have them down on the 12th, and its high time July 12th was a holiday in the 26 counties, so as to allow that 20% to celebrate an important part of Irelands culture.

Denying that entrenches the division that will put unionist lads off declaring for us. If we set ourselves up as a non-bigoted alternative to that facebook page, we can become the default choice for the majority of unionists/protestants who just want a successful team and are more than happy watching the rugby team.

[ArdeeBhoy]

If your definition of "paranoid" is me praising a Belfast born and raised woman, President of the Republic of Ireland, for extending the hand of friendship to her fellow Irishmen and women who happen to be members of the Orange Order (and in so doing, demonstrating true republican principles, and a real spirit of reconciliation), then I suggest you need to revisit your myopic little dictionary.
You may need an atlas before a dictionary, as there is no country called the 'Republic Of Ireland', at least get your facts right!!!



Strange that Irishmen like me cannot vote for who is the President Of Ireland.

Anyway, she must be paranoid.

"Now we must build a new culture of Both, each accepting that there are different perspectives and practices, each patient with the other as we get to know each other better in a growing spirit of understanding and outreach. It is possible to be both Irish and British, possible to be both Orange and Irish. We face into a landscape of new possibilities and understandings,"
MMcA is welcome to her thoughts and understanding. However, it is pure BS by her or anyone to say we have to 'appreciate' the Bigotfest of 12th July.
To me it's nothing to do with Protestantism, but paranoid cretins dressing up to celebrate winning a battle from 320 years ago. As I said upthread, celebrate the 350th, 400th, 450th & 500th anniversaries and then forget about it, for say, 500 years.....

Ironically their Scots brethren aren't so obsessive about Bannockburn or the English re.Trafalgar, Waterloo or whatever. Or most other countries for that matter.
Why do the OO & co have to force their 'celebrations' on the native population??

That said, 'unionism' should be acknowledged by the Irish state, but given their attitude in power (given to them by the Brits) it's double standards for the former to expect their feelings to be immediately embraced.

[Nedser]

Apologies, unnecessary exaggeration, Replace 'half' with 'a large proportion'. Recent internationals from Britain (ie, lived pretty much their entire lives there) include Messrs McGeady, McCarthy, Lawrence, St Leger, Westwood, Green. I mean, it's quite a lot.


Not going to get into a semantic debate about what a "large proportion" is, but the fact is a large majority of the current squad were born in Ireland, and your previous statement at the very least implied that wasn't the case. FYI, as far as I can tell, 4/22 of the current NI squad were born in England. I think you'd find similar scenarios in most international squads these days.



I haven't suggested anyone isn't genuinely Irish, merely that people from Scotland or England are Scottish or English too. At least just a little bit.

Speak for them all, do you? I suggested most people not merely living in Britain, but who've spent their entire lives there, birth, school, work, etc. etc. I allowed for people with one Irish grandparent, or four, or any number in between. Ditto ancestors from Britain or anywhere else. It would be a bit odd if they all felt equally non-British, don't ye think?

I don't speak for all of them - it was you who originally tried to do that. You might think it a bit odd, but the reality for many Irish people born and bred in Britain is that they don't feel British at all. What I say is based on a lot of personal experience of people in that situation - something like 10 cousins, for a start. I also lived there myself for some years, and while I was there I came into contact with a lot of English-born Irish people. I also regularly go to Ireland away games, and one thing that will strike anyone who does that is that a significant minority of Irish fans on those trips speak with English accents. I've become good friends with a number of them, and having been in their company watching England matches during the WC in Japan, I can tell you they have no affinity whatsoever for England!

Obviously there are also some people of Irish descent who were born in Britain and who feel a bit Irish and British, or even just British. However, you can't assume that is the case for all or even most people in that situation. I know for a fact that it isn't the case for many of them.

I understand why you might find that odd. I find it odd that some people born and bred in Ireland feel British! That's the reality though. In my opinion, both of these anomalies essentially have their roots in a long history of discrimination and conflict on these islands.

[Nedser]

Strange that Irishmen like me cannot vote for who is the President Of Ireland.



It's a shame isn't it? It's not for the want of trying on the part of Irish nationalists though.

What's also strange is that residents of the UK like you can't vote for any of the parties ever likely to form the govt of your country. And even more strange is that no-one can vote for who is the UK Head of State.

None of this changes the fact that Mary McAleese is officially the President of Ireland.

[youngirish]

Finally a decision has been reached so now possibly we can draw a line under this whole charade until the IFA try to drag John Delaney in front of the Court of International Justice in the Hague for his crimes against humanity in his attempts to eradicate the Northern Irish football team and it's supporters from the face of the earth so he can gain some Lebensraum for his new FAI training camps.

How anyone could even imagine that CAS would come to any other outcome before this case was even brought to their attention baffles me to say the least.

I also see that much of the media and the numerous posts on this matter seem to regurgitate the fact that the GFA has brought about some dynamic change in NI society to enable players born in Northern Ireland to represent the Republic due to their entitlement to Irish citzenship but from my understanding people born in the North have always been entitled to Irish citzenship since partition and the GFA has made very little difference in this regard. Perhaps I'm mistaken on this matter and maybe someone more knowledgeable in this subject (geysir, lopez) can confirm if this was the case.

However while I agree with the decision I do feel genuine sorrow for the Northern Ireland supporters as I believe, as do many of them I'm sure, that as time goes on more and more players born in Northern Ireland may well choose to represent the Republic and this is likely to put a signifcant dent in the meagre resources available to them while increasing substantially the meagre resources available to us. It's unlikely that the successful Northern Ireland teams of the past would ever have qualified for finals tournaments if a handful of their better players had decided to turn out for the Republic so there may be a very real and justified fear that this ruling marks the end of any likelihood of returning to those glory days.

If we do benefit to the extent where we begin to qualify for more tournaments on a regular basis while Northern Ireland's team stagnates and suffers the effects of this player drain then it is also likely (imo) that this trickle could become a flood and you will see unionist players playing for the Republic on a regular basis within the not too distant future. It appears likely to me that many modern footballers would be likely to overlook their politicial inclinations for the chance to further their careers. An appearance in a World Cup or European Championships after all can do wonders for your paypacket.

Anyway I do feel some sympathy for the Northern Irish supporters as a whole and maybe we should be gracious in victory and a bit more empathetic to their plight even if the corrrect decision in our eyes has been reached.

[ArdeeBhoy]

YI, You want us to have sympathy for people who routinely refer to us as 'The beggars'. And worse. Hmm.
Individually most of them are capable of being tolerable, but their collective psyche re 'us' is often intolerable.

[ped_ped]

Their comments don't matter, ArdeeBhoy, they will most likely suffer greatly from this decision, and even allowing for the element among them (an element among all fans of national team) that decide to react to their anger with uneducated, prejudicial and immature remarks, I would still agree with youngirish that they deserve our sympathy for this reason.

[Mr_Parker]

Their comments don't matter, ArdeeBhoy, they will most likely suffer greatly from this decision, and even allowing for the element among them (an element among all fans of national team) that decide to react to their anger with uneducated, prejudicial and immature remarks, I would still agree with youngirish that they deserve our sympathy for this reason.

If there is any "suffering" to be done, they brought a large part of it on themselves imo. The ruling by the CAS in essence changed nothing. Irish players from the North could always declare for the FAI. What the IFA have done over the last few years is to constantly bring this matter up despite them knowing full well that it was going to go nowhere. Have a read back at my post 1394.

[ifk101]

If there is any "suffering" to be done, they brought a large part of it on themselves imo. The ruling by the CAS in essence changed nothing. Irish players from the North could always declare for the FAI. What the IFA have done over the last few years is to constantly bring this matter up despite them knowing full well that it was going to go nowhere. Have a read back at my post 1394.

How true.

Sympathy is not something I feel towards the IFA and its supporters. The IFA knew full well back in 1999 that NI born players were eligible for the FAI teams. Indeed Jim Boyce was "extremely happy" at one point in time that the FAI agreed not to willingly pursue NI born players as Boyce knew there was nothing to stop these players lining out for the FAI. The IFA's actions there after are really quite pathetic and of very questionable motivation. Think back to the whole British passport malarky, how they hung Shane Duffy out the way they did, the whole Gibson affair and now bringing this all the way to CAS while faking any knowledge that they knew they couldn't win and seeking to hang another kid out who hadn't done anything wrong. As you have said before Mr Parker, all their actions regarding "the eligibility question" since Jim Boyce's period of extreme happiness have really sought to play up to NI's supporters and to make the FAI out to be the enemy.

[youngirish]

If there is any "suffering" to be done, they brought a large part of it on themselves imo. The ruling by the CAS in essence changed nothing. Irish players from the North could always declare for the FAI. What the IFA have done over the last few years is to constantly bring this matter up despite them knowing full well that it was going to go nowhere. Have a read back at my post 1394.

I would distinguish between the IFA and the supporters of the Northern Ireland football team as I would also distinguish between the FAI and the supporters of our team. I don't have too much sympathy for the IFA, they've fanned the flames of this whole episode since the start. Some of the supporters I would have sympathy for as the quality of their team will inevitably suffer whilst ours will undoubtedly gain from this influx of talent. How much in the long run their team will suffer is hard to say at this point but I think it'll have long reaching effects.

Within the next year or two we could easily have three Northern born players in our starting 11 that no doubt would have been regulars in the Northern Ireland team if they decided to play for them.

[Maroon 7]

Their comments don't matter, ArdeeBhoy, they will most likely suffer greatly from this decision, and even allowing for the element among them (an element among all fans of national team) that decide to react to their anger with uneducated, prejudicial and immature remarks, I would still agree with youngirish that they deserve our sympathy for this reason.

I do feel sympathy for their decent supporters however having read OWC down through the years it is clear that many if not most of them hold nothing but contempt for the ROI and the feelings of nationalists in NI and that was even before the eligibility row surfaced so I find it hard to get too bothered about their own hurt feelings now. Just glad the whole thing is over as the whole argument was getting a bit boring.

[Charlie Darwin]

Never ever take posters on an internet forum as a barometer of anything. The vast majority of NI fans are normal, placid people.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Ulster Unionist MLA David McNarry last night called on the IFA to "fight tooth and nail" yesterday's judgment .

"The IFA should use the European Courts, appeal to Westminster, make these young players sign a document that they will stick by the IFA that is pouring money and resources into their development – maybe even renegotiate the Belfast Agreement that created this farce," said Mr McNarry."

Even as someone who genuinely empathises* with the frustration felt by your average decent NI supporter that is pretty funny. I daresay if the situation and/or verdict was reversed and one of our politicians had a mic stuck in his face you could scarcely have elicited a more hysterical piece of clueless f***wittery from one of the Healy-Raes. It really is top drawer.

*I said empathises -not agrees with. I'm glad the IFA lost a fight they had to lose. They could and should've left well enough alone.

Going OT -and I shouldn't indulge the OT stuff in this thread but the nomenclature of the country is fairly straightforward. The country is called 'Ireland' or 'Republic of Ireland'. They are equally it's official English language names. There is very little by way of acid test to demonstrate this -none of you could do anything about it if I wanted to start calling the place Sh1tsville-on-Sea and as I'm just back from France it seems a much more appropriate name. It'd inconvenience no-one but myself when my mail stopped showing up.

But possibly the only time the actual name of the country is tested is when a new ambassador presents his or her diplomatic credentials to Mrs. McAleese. The envelope can be addressed to the President of Ireland or the President of the Republic of Ireland (or their Irish translations). Nothing else will be accepted and the envelope will be marked return to sender if it says anything else ...so for example 'President of the Irish Republic' is a non runner as there is no such place as the Irish Republic.

[backstothewall]

According to Article 4 of the constitution, "The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland". However the constitution makes a distinction between the state and the nation. It is a very carefully worked document, deliberately ambiguous in many regards, not least in naming both the nation and the state 'Ireland'.

Mary McAleese is the President of Ireland, but it doesn't say if that's Ireland the nation or Ireland the state. It is also says the president "shall be elected by direct vote of the people", but it doesn't say which people.

My reading of the constitution is that the state has the authority to govern the 26 counties, but that the nation is defined not by territory (as it used to be until the GFA changed articles 2&3), but by its people. And it seems FIFA and CAS agree with that distinction being a sensible one. Although Qatar may give citizenship of their state to any number of Brazilians, they clearly don't belong to the Qatari nation. Shane Duffy on the other hand is part of the Irish nation.

So given this decision, it would seem the FAI international side represents not the Irish state, but the Irish nation. it would therefore seem logical to drop the "Republic of" preface, and simply refer to ourselves as "Ireland". Although the FAI does not have jurisdiction over the north (apart from the Brandywell that is), my reading of these decisions is that it represents that Irish people, all 6 million of us, rather than 26 or 32 counties of the island

[DannyInvincible]

I hadn't had an opportunity to post since the decision was published but it certainly came as no surprise. I believe CAS have still to publish the grounds for their decision within the next few days, so that should be an interesting read. Hopefully that will put the issue to bed once and for all. I expect it to be in line with what posters like 'geysir' have been saying all along in this thread. Indeed, I have to thank him for his offered insight and regular clarification on the matter as a whole as, without it, my own understanding might have been lacking for much longer than it was.


I also see that much of the media and the numerous posts on this matter seem to regurgitate the fact that the GFA has brought about some dynamic change in NI society to enable players born in Northern Ireland to represent the Republic due to their entitlement to Irish citzenship but from my understanding people born in the North have always been entitled to Irish citzenship since partition and the GFA has made very little difference in this regard. Perhaps I'm mistaken on this matter and maybe someone more knowledgeable in this subject (geysir, lopez) can confirm if this was the case.

'gspain' shed some light on his understanding of the whole thing about a week or so ago: http://foot.ie/threads/132063-Should-we-stop-recruiting-NI-players?p=1380040&viewfull=1#post1380040

'co. down green' mentions a few northern-born players who played for our teams prior to the GFA in a subsequent post. This would imply that the GFA didn't actually change anything of substance as northern-borns always possessed a legal right to be recognised as Irish citizens.

My own feeling on the matter - which I admit is complete speculation - is that the GFA possibly spurred a change in mindset or a greater realisation of the possibility even. If the FAI were reluctant to call up northern-born Irish nationals prior to the GFA, I'm sure that changed once the extra-territorial application of Irish nationality law was bi-laterally agreed with the UK and consented to by a democratic majority in Northern Ireland.


Going OT -and I shouldn't indulge the OT stuff in this thread but the nomenclature of the country is fairly straightforward. The country is called 'Ireland' or 'Republic of Ireland'. They are equally it's official English language names. There is very little by way of acid test to demonstrate this -none of you could do anything about it if I wanted to start calling the place Sh1tsville-on-Sea and as I'm just back from France it seems a much more appropriate name. It'd inconvenience no-one but myself when my mail stopped showing up.

But possibly the only time the actual name of the country is tested is when a new ambassador presents his or her diplomatic credentials to Mrs. McAleese. The envelope can be addressed to the President of Ireland or the President of the Republic of Ireland (or their Irish translations). Nothing else will be accepted and the envelope will be marked return to sender if it says anything else ...so for example 'President of the Irish Republic' is a non runner as there is no such place as the Irish Republic.

Our constitution is pretty clear on the matter. Article 4 states:


The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.

Use that as an acid test if needs be.

This article should clear up any further confusion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Irish_state


There have been various names of the Irish state, some of which have been controversial. The constitutional name of the contemporary state is Ireland, the same as the island of Ireland, of which it comprises the major portion. However, in 1949 it formally declared itself a republic and was described in statute as the Republic of Ireland.

The United Kingdom objected to the name Ireland on the basis that it may be confused with the entire island. (Northern Ireland, a part of the United Kingdom, occupies the remaining one sixth of the island.) However, that name was internationally recognised by the early 1960s and since the end of the 1990s has been accepted by the United Kingdom also.

So, the "Republic of Ireland" is a legal description for the state rather than the actual name of the state. The 1949 legislation - the purpose of which was to declare Ireland a republic and no longer a dominion of the UK - would have been unconstitutional had it made any attempt to amend the title of the state. Furthermore, the UK now fully accepts the state's official title as "Ireland" and refers to the state as such in official correspondence.

[DannyInvincible]

So given this decision, it would seem the FAI international side represents not the Irish state, but the Irish nation.

This is correct and will remain so as long as FIFA confer eligibility based on nationality rather than territory.

[DannyInvincible]

(Btw, the FAI is not the "Association governing football in Ireland [sic]", it is the Association governing football in the Irish Republic)

Please stop being so purposefully thick and have a read of the above few posts. I'm pretty sure the error of your ways has been pointed out to you time and time again, like most of the other facts you seem to intentionally ignore with regard to this whole saga, because I really can't imagine you'd genuinely be so lacking in the mental department.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I dunno if you're seeking to disagree with me but I can find little to disagree with in your post. 'Republic of Ireland' is indeed a legal description of the state. A prescribed acceptable term for correspondense with our President. Much the same as Nick Sarky could be be described, nay officially titled, as President of the Republic of France. It's just that in the common vernacular or when there's a shorter version available - no-ones going to bother saying that mouthful.

So contrary to another posters claim (think it was AB ...apologies if not) Mary McAleese is very much and absolutely the President of the Republic of Ireland.

[janeymac]

Lionel - I think you've got that wrong. Most diplomats would try and get it right and address the President with his/her correct title - that is unless they wanted to cause offence. Apparently the British Gov., while refusing to acknowlege the existence of a 'President of Ireland' got around causing offense by addressing correspondence, to "President Mary Robinson" etc. with no mention of where she was a President of. That seems to be sorted now with the changing of Articles 2 & 3. Extradition warrants / legal documents back in the days were returned on technicalities to the UK when they were addressed "Southern Ireland. Eventually they got the name of the country right (Ireland) the hard way.

I'm not too sure what point you are making about France - but its official name is République Française - and they are very proud to be a Republic.

[DannyInvincible]

I dunno if you're seeking to disagree with me but I can find little to disagree with in your post. 'Republic of Ireland' is indeed a legal description of the state. A prescribed acceptable term for correspondense with our President. Much the same as Nick Sarky could be be described, nay officially titled, as President of the Republic of France. It's just that in the common vernacular or when there's a shorter version available - no-ones going to bother saying that mouthful.

So contrary to another posters claim (think it was AB ...apologies if not) Mary McAleese is very much and absolutely the President of the Republic of Ireland.

Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with that though. You initially suggested that "Ireland" and "Republic of Ireland" were both equally acceptable as names for the state, as if they possessed equal official status. This isn't the case, however, as our constitution makes perfectly clear. There can be no official title other than "Ireland" for the state in the English language. The 1949 legislation sought to declare the state a republic and no longer a UK dominion. It could have declared the state a people's republic or whatever but the title of the state would still have remained "Ireland" and not the "People's Republic of Ireland".

As for the president, sure, I suppose she could be described as such in common parlance or in the media or whatever, but the official title of the president's office is the "President of Ireland". I would imagine that in referring to her as the "President of the Republic of Ireland" you would be committing a diplomatic faux pas.

[DannyInvincible]

In fact, the Wikipedia article above contains the following:


The Taoiseach, John A. Costello introduced the legislation with an explanation of the difference in the following way:


"If I say that my name is Costello and that my description is that of senior counsel, I think that will be clear to anybody who wants to know...[Similarly, the state's] name in Irish is Éire and in the English language, Ireland. Its description in the English language is "the Republic of Ireland."

The effect was to declare the State to be a republic and thus 'no longer one of His Majesty's Dominions', whereupon it left the Commonwealth of Nations.

I think that explains the difference between a title or name and a description pretty well.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Again Janey -other than my having it wrong I find little to argue with in your post. Most diplomats would get it right or at least acceptable (though anyone sending a correspondense to President Mary Robinson at this stage fell foul of Ennis sorting office).

My point with France was that regardless of officially being Republique Francaise -most will likely just say France.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with that though. You initially suggested that "Ireland" and "Republic of Ireland" were both equally acceptable as names for the state, as if they possessed equal official status. . The president accepts correspondence to both. That's equal official status.


I suppose she could be described as such in common parlance or in the media or whatever, but the official title of the president's office is the "President of Ireland". I would imagine that in referring to her as the "President of the Republic of Ireland" you would be committing a diplomatic faux pas. Nope -you wouldn't. If you called her the President of Southern Ireland, Irish Republic or Pepsi Presents Peoples Republic of Ireland you'd be offside but President of the Republic of Ireland is fine.

[DannyInvincible]

The president accepts correspondence to both. That's equal official status.

Nope -you wouldn't. If you called her the President of Southern Ireland, Irish Republic or Pepsi Presents Peoples Republic of Ireland you'd be offside but President of the Republic of Ireland is fine.

The official website of the president (http://www.president.ie/) refers to the position as the "President of Ireland". The constitution does likewise. I'm not sure why the term "President of the Republic of Ireland" would be considered in any way more correct than, say, "President of the Irish Republic", but if you can show me some official standard or style for correspondence that equates such a description with the express title of the office, I'll happily agree with you. I've been looking for such a reference myself, but haven't encountered anything remotely official even describing the office in such terms.

[tetsujin1979]

so, 74 pages later, should we stop recruiting NI players?

[Colbert Report]

Seriously, who cares? I'm tired of seeing this at the top of the forum. Let it go.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Though of course If you aren't interested, just ignore this thread!!

[OneRedArmy]

so, 74 pages later, should we stop recruiting NI players?Poorly worded thread title. They're Irish players ;)

Also, I would suggest there's a repeated confusion (not to say sleight of hand and talking out of both sides of the mouth) of many on this thread about ireland with a small "i" (the geographical land mass) and Ireland (the independent nation state).This could be solved by reference to the island being in the lower case (ireland), however that would risk upsetting the united ireland/Ireland supporters.

Those who are able, yet do not chose to exercise their right to citizenship of Ireland may well be irish, by dint of being born on the geographical island of ireland, but they most certainly aren't Irish. They may "feel" irish, but in the same way that I feel cold this morning. State of mind, subjective, and undemonstrable, or should that be non-demonstrated. Nationality should not be confused with sentimentality, feeling, or other unobjective criteria. Where free choice exists (and post GFA it does in 99.999% of cases), it is almost a binary option (excepting dual or triple nationality).

Northern Ireland is a self governing region within with state of Great Britain and Northern Ireland which also happens to be allowed to field an international football team under a legacy sweetheart deal from FIFA. By all means British citizens can also assert their affinity with the self-governing region, but I'd suggest to avoid confusion with the nation of Ireland, they refer to Northern Ireland in all cases, rather than Ireland (including their football association). ;)

[Gather round]

It's a storm in a tea cup really and a total overreaction from let's say the more sensitive side of the Unionist community. The wise heads rightly claim that they could have kept a lid on this by just keeping the mouths shut

Broadly agreed (although I'd prefer if you didn't assume that the wise and (over-)sensitive NI fans are two entirely distinct groups)...


the people you refer to are 95% Irish born, as in the parents

The people I referred specifically as having been a) born in Britain, b) having lived their entire lives there until c) getting capped by the Republic of Ireland, you mean? Without getting too pedantic, they weren't born in Ireland, many of their parents weren't either, not least because they may only have only one parent or grandparent with any connection at all to Ireland. Nothing wrong with any of that of course, and to repeat ad nauseam I'm not denying Irishness nor anything else to anyone. Unlike you. I only mention them at all in answer to your absurd nonsense about them being automatically more Irish than me. The reality is that many of them are only recognised as mainly Irish because they're good at football.


And amazingly, you have absolutely no say whatsoever on who your Prime Minister is

Not true in the recent general election- the Conservative Party fielded candidates, in co-operation with the Ulster Unionist Party, in 17 of the 18 NI constituencies. And even in Fermanagh/ South Tyrone the single agreed non-nationalist candidate said that if elected he would broadly support the Tories.

As you suggest, it'a a shame that Labour (the only other British party which has been capable of leading a government in the last 90-100 years) can't be bothered to stand. And worse, stops local supporters organising. Fcuk 'em.


we can become the default choice for the majority of unionists/protestants who just want a successful team and are more than happy watching the rugby team

Ha ha. I fear it might be just a bit more difficult for this notional unionist-welcoming RoI football team to match the rugby boys' exploits. Like the competition in European/ World football being a bit stiffer. Anyway, the eggchasers' success basically amounts to topping the European qualifying group occasionally, if less often than Scotland or Wales.


Not going to get into a semantic debate about what a "large proportion" is, but the fact is a large majority of the current squad were born in Ireland, and your previous statement at the very least implied that wasn't the case

Relax. I exaggerated for effect, you corrected me, I withdrew. As you say, let's not. I wasn't really saying anything other than a lot of your players are from Britain, putting some of the exaggerated anti-British comments from others above into context.


FYI, as far as I can tell, 4/22 of the current NI squad were born in England. I think you'd find similar scenarios in most international squads these days

Indeed. And maybe more in the future, given the large number of English players in our U-19 and U-21 squads. All qualify within the rules, but personally I think it makes international football look a bit daft when so many are from outside the country.


I don't speak for all of them - it was you who originally tried to do that

I didn't, rather offering a rational explanation that people who are born, grow up and live their whole lives in England are likely to feel at least a bit English (and to have English, or at least non-Irish, parentage and grandparentage). I mean, if it's feathered, swims and goes quack there's a good chance it's a duck.

In return you offered anecdotes. Fine, maybe they prove me wrong overall, maybe they don't. I've 15 first cousins btw, four of whom grew up entirely outside NI. While interested in family history and that, they see themselves as English and Canadian.


find it odd that some people born and bred in Ireland feel British!...In my opinion, both of these anomalies essentially have their roots in a long history of discrimination and conflict on these islands

That's just silly. Part of Ireland has been part of Britain (the British state, if you prefer) continously for centuries. So many people feeling British is perfectly natural. There's nothing anomalous about it.


It's a shame isn't it [that people in Northern Ireland can't vote for the President]? It's not for the want of trying on the part of Irish nationalists though

Ha ha. The Irish nationalists with any influence over this- led by all the political parties in Dublin bar Sinn Fein- seem to have done absolutely nothing about this in 60 years. As a result, hundreds of thousands of RoI citizens living in both NI and abroad don't get a vote. Why not?


What's also strange is that residents of the UK like you can't vote for any of the parties ever likely to form the govt of your country

See reply to Janey Mac above. The Conservative Party stood in NI in the last general election. They should have done it throughout the Troublings, of course, but small credit to them now.


And even more strange is that no-one can vote for who is the UK Head of State

Agreed. Hereditary monarchies are regressive and undemocratic. It's amazing so many survive in Europe.


from my understanding people born in the North have always been entitled to Irish citzenship since partition and the GFA has made very little difference in this regard

Aye, in practice. There may be have been some contradictions between clauses in the constitution on one hand, and legislation on the other, suggesting that it wasn't automatic in principle. But I doubt that stopped anyone getting the necessary documents, let alone behaving as if they did.


I do feel genuine sorrow for the Northern Ireland supporters

Steady on. Who's died? Even I don't feel that, and I am one.


as time goes on more and more players born in Northern Ireland may well choose to represent the Republic and this is likely to put a signifcant dent in the meagre resources available to them while increasing substantially the meagre resources available to us

I think it's more likely to be a modest number, not one that will steadily rise tending to 100%. For reasons detailed repeatedly above- the NI side will be easier to get into, players may want to stay with their mates from the youth teams, youth footballers may not feel as strongly as their elders on the internet etc. etc. So it's likely to weaken us a bit while strengthening you to a lesser extent.


It's unlikely that the successful Northern Ireland teams of the past would ever have qualified for finals tournaments if a handful of their better players had decided to turn out for the Republic

Impossible to say. If yer granny had balls, she could well have been yer grandad.


so there may be a very real and justified fear that this ruling marks the end of any likelihood of returning to those glory days

The fear's real judging by OWC etc., but it's hysterical. The forthcoming expansion of the European Championships to 24 teams increasing everyone's chances of qualifying by about 50% ; losing two or three players reduces them by a lesser amount.


If we do benefit to the extent where we begin to qualify for more tournaments on a regular basis while Northern Ireland's team stagnates and suffers the effects of this player drain

A lot of ifs there. In the 60 year history of international football competitions, the Republic of Ireland have had one eight year period of sustained success (1986-1994), sandwiched by two longer periods as an also-ran. During which the team has featured numerous players from outside the country. With due respect to Marc Wilson and Darron Gibson, it's asking a lot to expect them to change that.


you will see unionist players playing for the Republic on a regular basis within the not too distant future

You might see the odd one, hamstrung by the odd eligibility rules like Kernaghan or who went off in a huff after arguing with the IFA (like McGeady, allegedly). Put starkly: if the Republic do start to qualify regularly, the team will be harder to get into; if they don't, it won't be that much of an attraction to foreign players.


Never ever take posters on an internet forum as a barometer of anything. The vast majority of NI fans are normal, placid people

A fair point generally. Although OWC (say) is likely more representative of fans than similar boards in larger countries, simply because a larger proportion of the fans read it.

[Gather round]

Those who are able, yet do not chose to exercise their right to citizenship of Ireland may well be irish, by dint of being born on the geographical island of ireland, but they most certainly aren't Irish

Yes they are. Sorry, your post makes no sense. Assuming this isn't a gag and you really think using lower-case letters makes any difference.


Nationality should not be confused with sentimentality, feeling, or other unobjective criteria

This is just waffle.Nationality often IS based largely or wholly on sentimentality, for a start. Granny rule anyone? While Irish people in Northern Ireland (part of the wider country of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) have just as much documentation or whatever for their Irish nationality within Britain, as you do for yours with the South. Stop stirring.


I'd suggest to avoid confusion with the nation of Ireland, they refer to Northern Ireland in all cases, rather than Ireland (including their football association)

Always up for a compromise. We'll be the NIFA, you can be FAI[R FUX], ie ~ Republic: featuring unionists exceptionally.

[OneRedArmy]

Yes they are. Sorry, your post makes no sense. Assuming this isn't a gag and you really think using lower-case letters makes any difference.



This is just waffle.Nationality often IS based largely or wholly on sentimentality, for a start. Granny rule anyone? While Irish people in Northern Ireland (part of the wider country of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) have just as much documentation or whatever for their Irish nationality within Britain, as you do for yours with the South. Stop stirring.



Always up for a compromise. We'll be the NIFA, you can be FAI[R FUX], ie ~ Republic: featuring unionists exceptionally.Not going to drag the thread further OT, but unsurprisingly I disagree almost entirely with everything you've said. A little purple hardbacked document with an emblem on the front trumps a feeling or a state of mind every day of the week. Thats why people give up their lives for the right to get it.

[Lionel Ritchie]

The official website of the president (http://www.president.ie/) refers to the position as the "President of Ireland". The constitution does likewise. I'm not sure why the term "President of the Republic of Ireland" would be considered in any way more correct than, say, "President of the Irish Republic", but if you can show me some official standard or style for correspondence that equates such a description with the express title of the office, I'll happily agree with you. I've been looking for such a reference myself, but haven't encountered anything remotely official even describing the office in such terms.

I've been searching for a reference myself and am similarily turning up a blank I'm afraid so as per the 'back it up or pack it up' rule I'll respectfully draw my horns in.
My sources thereafter are anecdotal and include an incident where an introductory letter addressed to the President of the Irish Republic was handed back.


so, 74 pages later, should we stop recruiting NI players? She's not your wife til she says I do and they're not NI players til they're capped. As for 'recruiting' -a single anecdote about Brian Kerr phoning Chris Baird aside there's scarcely any more evidence of it than there is of the IFA using the milk cup to tap up England youths for their side.

On the substantive issue I've said before I'm uncomfortable with players being cuckoos eggs in the NI setup before switching to us. Though there's nothing illegal in it. We'll see what happens when CAS release their details but it might be the case that they recommend (I truthfully have no idea if they've the power, inclination or remit to do so) a local arrangment between the IFA and FAI. But I have my doubts if that's actually in NIs best interests either. As things stand they get to 'make their case' first and show what the IFA set up has to offer to kids who's inclination may be to play for us (RoI). If the FAs come up with some local arrangment the IFA might be getting a lot more Thanks But No Thanks from such kids when call ups go out.


Poorly worded thread title. They're Irish players In my very first post on this topic I said as much (okay I long windedly implied it's author was a WUM). It should maybe be changed to something like 'Player Eligibility Row' but that's up to the mods.

[lopez]

Broadly agreed (although I'd prefer if you didn't assume that the wise and (over-)sensitive NI fans are two entirely distinct groups)...
I was talking about their ability to use some shred of sense, not that they belong to different parties.


Agreed. Hereditary monarchies are regressive and undemocratic. It's amazing so many survive in Europe.
And hereditary political dynisties? I'm instinctively republican, but I can see why so many have survived and why so many were destroyed. The Italian and Spanish were kicked out through their weakness to stand up to fascism. The Danish survived by standing up to fascism. The Spanish one returned through fascism and brought itself some credibility by dismantling the fascist state through its own rules then, its head, sticking his head on the line to ensure fascism would not return. The obvious problem is when you get a d*ckhead as the pretender, but then in some democratic republics, people often vote them in. Someone mention George Bush? Or even Charles Haughey?

[ArdeeBhoy]

The people I referred specifically as having been a) born in Britain, b) having lived their entire lives there until c) getting capped by the Republic of Ireland, you mean? Without getting too pedantic, they weren't born in Ireland, many of their parents weren't either, not least because they may only have only one parent or grandparent with any connection at all to Ireland. Nothing wrong with any of that of course, and to repeat ad nauseam I'm not denying Irishness nor anything else to anyone. Unlike you. I only mention them at all in answer to your absurd nonsense about them being automatically more Irish than me. The reality is that many of them are only recognised as mainly Irish because they're good at football.
Yawn

Except as ever on this, you're Wrong. 95% of those players would have Irish-born parents. A bit like the families of all the players now claimed by the North! Anyway, for most people this isn't really a problem. However....

You obviously despise the concept of Diaspora*, which is pretty insulting not just to the Irish, but many other ethnic groups in a similar way around the world....

If they* want to play for the Ireland football team, rather than one that wants to be part of Britain, that would make them 'more' Irish in the eyes of most people who weren't paranoid.....


Not true in the recent general election- the Conservative Party fielded candidates, in co-operation with the Ulster Unionist Party, in 17 of the 18 NI constituencies. And even in Fermanagh/ South Tyrone the single agreed non-nationalist candidate said that if elected he would broadly support the Tories.

As you suggest, it'a a shame that Labour (the only other British party which has been capable of leading a government in the last 90-100 years) can't be bothered to stand.
Well it is the Conservative & Unionist party. But they still got p*ss-all support in the North.

And why would Labour be bothered with a colony half of their traditional voters have never recognised??


I fear it might be just a bit more difficult for this notional unionist-welcoming RoI football team to match the rugby boys' exploits. Like the competition in European/ World football being a bit stiffer. Anyway, the eggchasers' success basically amounts to topping the European qualifying group occasionally, if less often than Scotland or Wales.
Well, they could hardly do any worse than the two teams mediocre record you keep referring to!


And maybe more in the future, given the large number of English players in our U-19 and U-21 squads. All qualify within the rules, but personally I think it makes international football look a bit daft when so many are from outside the country.
Maybe you should take it up with Bl*tter & co, but on current evidence you know less about the game than even them!


I didn't, rather offering a rational explanation that people who are born, grow up and live their whole lives in England are likely to feel at least a bit English (and to have English, or at least non-Irish, parentage and grandparentage).

I've 15 first cousins btw, four of whom grew up entirely outside NI. While interested in family history and that, they see themselves as English and Canadian.
So now you speak for all immigrants?? Because on this, you're again very very wrong.
Some do and some don't assimilate into host cultures. Is there a law that they should, either way?

Though notice none of your family claim to be, er, 'Irish'. So no change there! ;)


Part of Ireland has been part of Britain (the British state, if you prefer) continously for centuries. So many people feeling British is perfectly natural.
More patronising BS, outside the unionist community.



u might see the odd one, hamstrung by the odd eligibility rules like Kernaghan or who went off in a huff after arguing with the IFA (like McGeady, allegedly). Put starkly: if the Republic do start to qualify regularly, the team will be harder to get into; if they don't, it won't be that much of an attraction to foreign players.
What foreign players ??


OWC (say) is likely more representative of fans than similar boards in larger countries, simply because a larger proportion of the fans read it.
In which case Charlie D. was completely wrong on his last point! Sorry.



Yes they are. Sorry, your post makes no sense. Assuming this isn't a gag and you really think using lower-case letters makes any difference.

This is just waffle.Nationality often IS based largely or wholly on sentimentality, for a start. Granny rule anyone? While Irish people in Northern Ireland (part of the wider country of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) have just as much documentation or whatever for their Irish nationality within Britain, as you do for yours with the South.

The first sentence is just pure Hypocrisy(again!) while the second is more pointless waffle.....



We'll be the NIFA, you can be FAI[R FUX], ie ~ Republic: featuring unionists exceptionally.
Huh??

[lopez]

I also see that much of the media and the numerous posts on this matter seem to regurgitate the fact that the GFA has brought about some dynamic change in NI society to enable players born in Northern Ireland to represent the Republic due to their entitlement to Irish citzenship but from my understanding people born in the North have always been entitled to Irish citzenship since partition and the GFA has made very little difference in this regard. Perhaps I'm mistaken on this matter and maybe someone more knowledgeable in this subject (geysir, lopez) can confirm if this was the case.
There was a gentleman's agreement before the GFA, but you're right the FAI could have picked anyone with an Irish passport. The GFA granted the right to everyone (diplomats etc excepted) born in the 6C to Irish citizenship - e.g Asians and Chinese born in the North were now eligible - not just those with a Grandparent born there before 1922, although I know this was ignored prior to 1998. It has now been reduced to those born with parents legally resident in the North at the time of their birth with the referendum a few years ago.

[lopez]

I've been searching for a reference myself and am similarily turning up a blank I'm afraid so as per the 'back it up or pack it up' rule I'll respectfully draw my horns in.
My sources thereafter are anecdotal and include an incident where an introductory letter addressed to the President of the Irish Republic was handed back. There is a well known extradition warrant of Dessie Ellis, that was sent back to Britain for the wrong use of the name. According to wikipedia: 'In 1989 the Irish Supreme Court rejected an extradition warrant that used the name Republic of Ireland. Justice Walsh ruled that, "if the courts of other countries seeking the assistance of this country are unwilling to give this State its constitutionally correct and internationally recognised name, then in my view, the warrants should be returned to such countries until they have been rectified."' Source: Casey, James, Constitutional Law in Ireland, ISBN 978-1-899738-63-2, p. 31, in reference to the Ellis v O'Dea extradition case.

I think they got this wrong, and I think that the warrant was addressed at the time to 'The Irish Republic'.

[Gather round]

A little purple hardbacked document with an emblem on the front trumps a feeling or a state of mind every day of the week

You obviously didn't understand my point. I too have a little hardbacked purple number (steady, missus!). Mine too says Ireland on the front. I'm just as Irish as you with documents to prove it, not that I need them. Your passport doesn't trump anything for me. It's just a travel document.


Thats why people give up their lives for the right to get it

Er, who? Republic of Ireland passports have been readily available to those qualifying for decades.


But I have my doubts if that's actually in NIs best interests either

Why not? If it's anything like the deal I'm suggesting (neither side will pick anyone already capped as an adult by the other) it prevents a player moving after 18, but doesn't deny any youth player (even if over 18) a choice. If nationalist players don't want to play for NI, they can decline the cap.


And hereditary political dynisties?

No problem in principle. If the voters want to choose Liam T Cosgrave (say) because his Da and Granda were head honcho, that's fine. Wiki tells me that in a number of elections, they chose not to.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I too have a little hardbacked purple number. Mine too says Ireland on the front.
You have an Irish passport now??


Republic of Ireland passports have been readily available to those qualifying for decades.
Except If you had one, you'd know they Don't mention the word, 'Republic' !!


If it's anything like the deal I'm suggesting (neither side will pick anyone already capped as an adult by the other) it prevents a player moving after 18, but doesn't deny any youth player (even if over 18) a choice. If nationalist players don't want to play for NI, they can decline the cap.

Except anyone who's eligible can switch, up until they can get a full competitive cap......

[Gather round]

95% of those players would have Irish-born parents

So what (not that you have the remotest idea what proportion of Irish-qualified people in Britain have two, one or no Irish-born parents)? My point is that lifelong English-resident people are likely to feel at least a bit English.


You obviously despise the concept of Diaspora

I don't, not sure how you figure that out. I recognise there is emigration (for which diaspora is really just a slightly hi-falutin' alternative). I half-expect you to break into Rivers of Babylon or something every time you mention it.


that would make them 'more' Irish in the eyes of most people who weren't paranoid...

It wouldn't. I'm 100% Irish; no-one can be 101% thus. No-one on this thread is more paranoid than you. Stop posting nonsense.


Well it is the Conservative & Unionist party. But they still got p*ss-all support in the North

The Conservative/UUP bloc got 15% in May 2010. Do you think your SDLP pals' 16% support is p*ss-all too?


And why would Labour be bothered with a colony half of their traditional voters have never recognised??

National parties should stand in every seat nationally; they might win seats, or even if it not get a significant vote (more than the Tories', say); most Labour voters recognise Northern Ireland is part of Britain. There hasn't been a single British general election since 1918 in which ending partition was an issue. You'd struggle to find a single seat in England, Scotland or Wales where an anti-Irish partition ticket would save the deposit.


Well, they could hardly do any worse than the two teams mediocre record you keep referring to!

I explained why. Hardly anyone in Europe plays rugby union seriously, maybe two or three countries outside the Six Nations.


So now you speak for all immigrants??...Is there a law that they should, either way?

You what? I didn't claim to speak for all immigrants, nor suggest any laws!


Though notice none of your family claim to be, er, 'Irish'. So no change there!

All of my Irish family members claim to be Irish. They are Irish. Stop posting nonsense.


What foreign players ??

Those from foreign countries. Do try to keep up.


You have an Irish passport now??

Great British and Irish, it says. What da problem?


Except If you had one, you'd know they Don't mention the word, 'Republic' !!

I know quite well what they say even without having one. Everyone knows what I mean, you are getting them in a twist pointlessly.


Except anyone who's eligible can switch, up until they can get a full competitive cap......

We know. I was replying to Lionel's point about a possible change to that. Do you actually read what others post?

[lopez]

Why not? If it's anything like the deal I'm suggesting (neither side will pick anyone already capped as an adult by the other) it prevents a player moving after 18, but doesn't deny any youth player (even if over 18) a choice. If nationalist players don't want to play for NI, they can decline the cap.
That entails compromise, which is something I noticed from the Facebook group and what I saw on OWC when it was an open forum, is sadly lacking on your side, where the ideology is Northern players should ONLY play for Northern Ireland.

[Gather round]

Hopefully the compromise will follow from a recognition that that ideology a) is restrictive and b) has failed/ been by-passed anyway.

In a possible sign of improvement, yesterday IFA admin responded within hours to my letter asking c) why they went to law at all with little obvious of hope of success, d) how they planned to deal with the bad publicity sh*tstorm in the unlikey event they had won, and e) whether they will seek some deal with the FAI(R-FUX) in future. They've promised that Nelson or someone on his behalf will respons more fully soon.

[ArdeeBhoy]

So what (not that you have the remotest idea what proportion of Irish-qualified people in Britain have two, one or no Irish-born parents)? My point is that lifelong English-resident people are likely to feel at least a bit English.
Except you'd be wrong in very many cases. As usual.
See your bottom 'point' !


II recognise there is emigration (for which diaspora is really just a slightly hi-falutin' alternative). I half-expect you to break into Rivers of Babylon or something every time you mention it.
Huh?


I'm 100% Irish; no-one can be 101% thus.
So you're not British again??


The Conservative/UUP bloc got 15% in May 2010.
And how many of their voters were voting for the UPP name, 90%+ you'll find. The Tory name made a minimal difference.


National parties should stand in every seat nationally; they might win seats, or even if it not get a significant vote (more than the Tories', say); most Labour voters recognise Northern Ireland is part of Britain.

Check out opinion polls on Irish unification. A majority of Labour voters have been consistently in favour.
Probably becauuse traditionally they've included many members of the Irish diaspora!
Though more likely they weren't interested in perpetuating colonialism.


Hardly anyone in Europe plays rugby union seriously, maybe two or three countries outside the Six Nations.

Hardly anyone plays cricket, but Ireland are now (just) one of the top ten teams. Good for them. And the rugby team(s) also!
Are you suggesting they and other UI teams are somewhat invalid??


All of my Irish family members claim to be Irish. They are Irish.
Not what my spies tell me. I would enquire further and remind them of any polls they've ever participated in!
Lol.


Those from foreign countries.
Do elaborate? Actually, don't.


Do you actually read what others post?
Hmm...
See above!

[OneRedArmy]

Great British and Irish, it says. What da problem?If thats what your passport says, I'd return it. Its clearly got a fairly major typo in it....

[Den Perry]

You're an absolute fool if you think that Football For All is in any way relevant here. :D

No, you are the fool. You rant, and then you backtrack

[ifk101]

Hopefully the compromise will follow from a recognition that that ideology a) is restrictive and b) has failed/ been by-passed anyway.

In a possible sign of improvement, yesterday IFA admin responded within hours to my letter asking c) why they went to law at all with little obvious of hope of success, d) how they planned to deal with the bad publicity sh*tstorm in the unlikey event they had won, and e) whether they will seek some deal with the FAI(R-FUX) in future. They've promised that Nelson or someone on his behalf will respons more fully soon.

The FAI has already compromised. It agreed in 1999 not to actively pursue NI born players to which Jim Boyce proclaimed himself to be "extremely happy". The CAS ruling does not necessarily change this.

If you get a response from the IFA, could you post the gist of that response here?

[Predator]

In a possible sign of improvement, yesterday IFA admin responded within hours to my letter asking c) why they went to law at all with little obvious of hope of success, d) how they planned to deal with the bad publicity sh*tstorm in the unlikey event they had won, and e) whether they will seek some deal with the FAI(R-FUX) in future. They've promised that Nelson or someone on his behalf will respons more fully soon.I'd be quite interested to hear the official line on the matters which you have queried. I presume that Nelson will issue some sort of press release. For his sake, I hope he gives it more thought than he gave FIFA's statutes.

Anyway, with regard to the part of your post which I have highlighted - that being the possibility of the IFA seeking a deal with the FAI - what sort of deal do you envisage the IFA actually seeking?

As ifk has noted, the FAI has already compromised in agreeing not to approach northern players, so I find it hard to imagine that the FAI will agree to much else, considering that it will likely be to the detriment of the FAI.

[Nedser]

In return you offered anecdotes. Fine, maybe they prove me wrong overall, maybe they don't. I've 15 first cousins btw, four of whom grew up entirely outside NI. While interested in family history and that, they see themselves as English and Canadian.

I'm sure they do. I also have cousins born and bred in America, and they position themselves at varying positions along the Irish-American Irish-American spectrum. But you're completely missing the point. There are very particular reasons why many people born in Britain descended from Irish nationalists don't see themselves as British. It's basically the 1st Duke of Wellington's sentiments applied in reverse ("Just because a man is born in a stable, it doesn't mean he's a horse").



That's just silly. Part of Ireland has been part of Britain (the British state, if you prefer) continously for centuries. So many people feeling British is perfectly natural. There's nothing anomalous about it.


Sorry, you're wrong here - this one's not even debateable. No part of Ireland has ever been part of Britain (or "the British state"). The whole island was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland for centuries. Six counties remain part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Both names make it abundantly clear that Ireland/Northern Ireland is distinct from Great Britain. The only logical reason for people from Ireland to consider themselves British is because they descended from British setllers. Given that most of them have to go back hundreds of years to find an ancestor actually born in Britain, that is extremely odd IMO.



Ha ha. The Irish nationalists with any influence over this- led by all the political parties in Dublin bar Sinn Fein- seem to have done absolutely nothing about this in 60 years.


They put a territorial claim in the constitution to assert their wish to re-unify Ireland. Thankfully they didn't (generally) support violence as a means to achieve it. What exactly is your point? As you well know, my point is that if Irish nationalists had their way, there would be an independent, united Ireland and everyone (NI unionists included) would have a vote.



As a result, hundreds of thousands of RoI citizens living in both NI and abroad don't get a vote. Why not?


I personally would like to see all people in NI getting a vote in Irish elections, but aagain as you well know, the people who would oppose that are those on the Unionist/Loyalist side of the fence.

Irish citizens in other countries is a different matter as they would outnumber the people actually living in Ireland! That's obviously a completely unrelated issue anyway, and to the best of my knowledge, UK citizens living outside the UK don't get a vote either.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Good post there again, Nedser btw.

However re.your last point, as far as I know (AFAIK) Brit.citizens, if they register around the time of an election to any national level of government, are entitled to vote in the last seat they resided in.
That said, a good English pal now in Spain, claimed "It was scarcely worth the bother".
So he didn't.

Irish citizens outside the state should probably be entitled to at least a limited input electorally, but will leave it to the more constitutionally minded to suggest a viable system.

[Gather round]

If you get a response from the IFA, could you post the gist of that response here?

Will do, but no sign of owt yet.


The FAI has already compromised. It agreed in 1999 not to actively pursue NI born players to which Jim Boyce proclaimed himself to be "extremely happy". The CAS ruling does not necessarily change this

If it's compromised before, it may compromise again. Judging anecdotally just from this and similar threads, many RoI fans while welcoming all qualified players, do agree with me that it's unfair for them to play for two countries successively.


what sort of deal do you envisage the IFA actually seeking?

Just the one I've mentioned briefly and repeatedly on this thread. Neither side would select any player who'd already appeared for the other's senior teams (full, U-21, U-19, competitive and friendly matches both) after their 18th birthday.


As ifk has noted, the FAI has already compromised in agreeing not to approach northern players, so I find it hard to imagine that the FAI will agree to much else, considering that it will likely be to the detriment of the FAI

If it's already made one small compromise, it might make another. Presumably the FAI thought the previous concession was a detriment?


But you're completely missing the point. There are very particular reasons why many people born in Britain descended from Irish nationalists don't see themselves as British. It's basically the 1st Duke of Wellington's sentiments applied in reverse ("Just because a man is born in a stable, it doesn't mean he's a horse")

No, I understand your point quite well. The Republic of Ireland is Britain's closest neighbor, the emigrant population is large, there is a history of colonialism, latterly discrimination etc. etc.But let's not get carried away. That quip is memorable, but it doesn't really answer my point. To repeat, anyone spending their entire life from birth in Britain is likely to feel a bit British, just like a Filipino, Nigerian or Polish kid growing up entirely in Dublin or Belfast is likely to feel just a bit Irish. Most kids schooled in Britain in recent years (regardless of how many Irish ancestors they have) have likely barely heard of the Duke of Wellington, btw. Whether from their parents, teachers or anyone else.

The British-born guys playing for the Republic of Ireland aren't in the side through any lifelong feeling of non-Britishness, are they? It's because they're good at football.


Sorry, you're wrong here - this one's not even debateable

Ha ha. Now you're just being childish. Northern Ireland is part of Britain/ the British state, has been for centuries. Part of Ireland is part of Britain. If you don't want to debate that, fine.


They put a territorial claim in the constitution to assert their wish to re-unify Ireland

Big deal.No political party in the Republic has done anything in 60 years (70 years of the Constitution, 90 since independence), either to negotaite away even a small change to the border on behalf of nationalists, or to reassure unionists of a welcome in this notional united Ireland. As I said above, repeatedly, many (most?) people in the South are only keen if it remains notional, were there any realistic likelihood of it happening you wouldn't see them for dust. Derry Cityside or Newry could have been in the Republic decades ago, if they were really wanted.


Thankfully they didn't (generally) support violence as a means to achieve it. What exactly is your point?

Sorry, left out a bit there. I singled out Sinn Fein not for the paramilitarism, but because they at least have contested elections in Northern Ireland. FF, FG and the rest haven't bothered in 80 or 90 years. Why? Because they aren't interested in support there.


As you well know, my point is that if Irish nationalists had their way, there would be an independent, united Ireland and everyone (NI unionists included) would have a vote

That's just a daydream. The problem is that RoI citizens in NI don't have a vote in the former. Which is an issue if only because some RoI supporters here are detailing at length how welcoming the Republic is to all Irish people.


I personally would like to see all people in NI getting a vote in Irish elections, but aagain as you well know, the people who would oppose that are those on the Unionist/Loyalist side of the fence...Irish citizens in other countries is a different matter as they would outnumber the people actually living in Ireland!

Disagree, it's the same issue. The Republic withholds the vote from citizens living abroad because it suits it, largely because of the broad cost. As for the outnumbering, if you allocate citizenship so widely, of course TP Coogan's 70 million Worldwide will trump four million in the country. Likely opposition from unionists isn't the main factor- if it was, there wouldn't have been any Articles Two and Three for 60 years.

Unionists taking RoI citizenship so they could get a vote and maybe elect someone into Dail Eireann would be funny.


to the best of my knowledge, UK citizens living outside the UK don't get a vote either

That's undemocratic too.


Brit.citizens, if they register around the time of an election to any national level of government, are entitled to vote in the last seat they resided in

To vote in British elections, you need to be inter alia

* living, or at least registered, at a British address (which implies you need to be the owner or tenant there, or have a friend or relative acting as such, or similar)

* a British citizen, or similarly of any Commonwealth Country or the RoI


Irish citizens outside the state should probably be entitled to at least a limited input electorally, but will leave it to the more constitutionally minded to suggest a viable system

I don't claim any expert knowledge, but the French system seems more relaxed. As long as you're a citizen, you can just register with a consulate abroad. No address in la Belle France is needed.

[ArdeeBhoy]

it's unfair for them to play for two countries successively.

Neither side would select any player who'd already appeared for the other's senior teams (full, U-21, U-19, competitive and friendly matches both) after their 18th birthday.

Except as it's been repeatedly pointed out, the FAI, as with all national FA's (inc.the IFA), can bid for eligible players up until they receive a full competitive cap. End of.
No other agreements are necessary.


The Republic of Ireland is Britain's closest neighbour, the emigrant population is large, there is a history of colonialism, latterly discrimination etc. etc. But let's not get carried away. That quip is memorable, but it doesn't really answer my point.

To repeat, anyone spending their entire life from birth in Britain is likely to feel a bit British, just like a Filipino, Nigerian or Polish kid growing up entirely in Dublin or Belfast is likely to feel just a bit Irish. Most kids schooled in Britain in recent years (regardless of how many Irish ancestors they have) have likely barely heard of the Duke of Wellington, btw. Whether from their parents, teachers or anyone else.

The British-born guys playing for the Republic of Ireland aren't in the side through any lifelong feeling of non-Britishness, are they? It's because they're good at football.
The last part of the paragraph about whether people know about who Wellington is more patronising BS, whilst know plenty of individuals born/raised in Britain (and other countries) who don't in the least feel any affinity to their 'host' nation. Why should they?

Some will and some won't.
Think you might have to expand, er, yer cultural experience on this one! ;)


Northern Ireland is part of Britain/ the British state, has been for centuries.
Hasn't it only existed since the 1920's??


No political party in the Republic has done anything in 60 years (70 years of the Constitution, 90 since independence), either to negotaite away even a small change to the border on behalf of nationalists, or to reassure unionists of a welcome in this notional united Ireland. As I said above, repeatedly, many (most?) people in the South are only keen if it remains notional, were there any realistic likelihood of it happening you wouldn't see them for dust. Derry Cityside or Newry could have been in the Republic decades ago, if they were really wanted.

Clearly you're again out of touch again with the unionist community who have this thing about 'not conceding an inch'. Them and their pals in Britain have far more to do with any redrawing of the border. Given how the whole thing was gerrymandered in the first place!


I singled out Sinn Fein not for the paramilitarism, but because they at least have contested elections in Northern Ireland. FF, FG and the rest haven't bothered in 80 or 90 years.
The problem is that RoI citizens in NI don't have a vote in the former. Which is an issue if only because some RoI supporters here are detailing at length how welcoming the Republic is to all Irish people.
The former is due to being actively discouraged by your unionist mates and those parties having been seen as deserting their potential voters there. Not to mention inherently flawed in the main.

The latter will happen in time, but at the moment the rabble who are our TD's have the more important issue of trying to hold the Irish economy together. Plus they don't want lots of northern Nats.voting even for the SDLP, let alone SF!
Which is wrong.



I don't claim any expert knowledge
You said it!
;)