Player eligibility row

[geysir]

In a nutshell, IN ANY EVENT the alleged gentleman's agreement does not apply to Daniel Kearns.

[co. down green]

Seriously ****-poor journalism by BBC NI.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/irish/9044215.stm

Hard to beleive that the guy who penned this article gets paid for a living!

[geysir]

'The Court of Arbitration for Sport has admitted that the ruling regarding N Ireland-born players opting for the Republic is "unfair" on the IFA.'


Where exactly do CAS state that the FIFA rules were unfair?
Simple answer is, they don't - not in the slightest.

[Dodge]

Page 23
79. 'The Panel noted that IFA also advanced an alternative argument that Mr Kearns had shared nationality because, as an Irish national (irrespective of his British nationality), he could play for either IFA or FAI and Mr Hunter asserted that it had always been the case that the IFA could select Irish nationals with a territorial connection to Northern Ireland. The absence of Irish nationality from the commentary on Annexe 2 is, he submitted, inconclusive. It was apparent to the Panel that the factual basis for the assertion was controversial and disputed by the FAI’s counsel. Since neither the factual nor legal basis for this argument was sufficiently established, the Panel is in no position to find in its favour'.

The correct answer is the IFA can only select British citizens for its representative teams. Yes it is a dual national statelet but it is still inside the UK, therefore only the British nationality is relevant to selection for the IFA teams.

And, the IFA refused to an agreement proposed by FIFA aloing those exact lines. The FAI were willing to agree that citizens of Ireland, regardless of where they resided, could play for Northern Ireland

[Dodge]

'The Court of Arbitration for Sport has admitted that the ruling regarding N Ireland-born players opting for the Republic is "unfair" on the IFA.'


Where exactly do CAS state that the FIFA rules were unfair?
Simple answer is, they don't - not in the slightest.

They mention that the "one way" system of NI lads being able to play for ROI but not the other way arund is unfair.

EDIT; page 21, Art 70.

And BTW I'm not for one second defending the article which seems to select a tiny morsel of comfort for the IAF in a pretty damning overall judgement

[geysir]

Not quite.
The Court is required to give an account of the evidence presented. Part of that evidence is documentation which preceded the compromise proposal. CAS do not interpret FIFAs rules as being unfair they simple state FIFA's reason for offering the proposal. Part of that reason was that the regulation resulted in unfair “one-way situation”.. This was FIFA wording at the time pre compromise proposal.

[Dodge]

Sorry, I misread your original post. of course the "unfair" comment was talking about the letters between IFA and FIFA

[SaucyJack]

Just seen that Preston youngfella Adam Barton pulled out of the NI full squad to keep his "Options Open"... Is he elligable for us??? Or is his "Option" England in this case??

It's his English option
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/9044523.stm

[Stuttgart88]

OTF with him then.

[TrapAPony]

It's his English option
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/9044523.stm

If he qualifies to play for Northern Ireland wouldn't that mean that he qualifies for us then?

[geysir]

Yes he qualifies for us, the FAI's territory includes the 6 counties and therefore those descended from those born in the 6 counties qualify for both the IFA and the FAI.

'FAI territory' is that space of land where the new born are automatically entitled to Irish citizenship, not just the piece of land it has football jurisdiction over.

[Predator]

The IFA have been dealt a 'double-whammy' today. The full CAS ruling released, exposing the IFA as being foolish, and another fast-tracked youngster pulling out of their squad.

I wonder will young Barton be castigated in the media and by their fans as severely as Shane Duffy, Darron Gibson and Daniel Kearns were?

[shaneker]

That ruling really does make the IFA (or maybe it's more fair to say the IFA's lawyers) look like total idiots. Their case pretty much amounted to not being able to read. Relying on a 'linguistically strained' (as we in the business say) interpretation of the FIFA Statutes, which made absolutely no sense, and attempting to interpret the 2009 Eligibility regulations in the light of on an informal agreement from SIXTY years ago in an area which has changed out of all recognition in that time, is outright lunacy. A first year law student could see that this was a totally, totally unrealistic position.

It should never have gone this far, but please now it's done.

[Gather round]

I wonder will young Barton be castigated in the media and by their fans as severely as Shane Duffy, Darron Gibson and Daniel Kearns were?

Possibly. I wouldn't waste your sympathy though- if he didn't want to play, he could have told Worthy privately any time in the week between his invitation and the public announcement. It looks like he, or his agent, have deliberately created a story which might help him get a transfer into the Prem. I imagine that's more of a priority for them than an international cap- he's much less likely to get one from England.

[Predator]

Fair point and something I actually overlooked, but how likely is it? These media storms can certainly help to boost the profile of a player, but by how much, I'm not so sure.

Did Barton merit inclusion based on his form? Or is it likely that Worthington included him simply in order to tie him to the IFA? Being cynical, I'd guess that it was the latter and, while I can understand why Worthington would do so, I don't think it is the best course of action - especially when one considers that it has already backfired twice. However, I suppose the IFA will feel that the odd media storm in a teacup can be tolerated if it means one talented youth gets tied.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I wouldn't be surprised if PNE were in the lads ear to hang about. Worth way more to them as a future England international than pretty much any other nationality out there.

[Gather round]

Fair point and something I actually overlooked, but how likely is it? These media storms can certainly help to boost the profile of a player, but by how much, I'm not so sure

It's certainly been successful, at least as a first step- plenty of nationwide BBC coverage today, not just in NI.

I think teenage footballers are less naive than widely assumed- and even where they are, almost invariably streetwise agents are about.


Did Barton merit inclusion based on his form? Or is it likely that Worthington included him simply in order to tie him to the IFA? Being cynical, I'd guess that it was the latter and, while I can understand why Worthington would do so, I don't think it is the best course of action - especially when one considers that it has already backfired twice. However, I suppose the IFA will feel that the odd media storm in a teacup can be tolerated if it means one talented youth gets tied.

On form, I'd say no. He's played 11 games in D2, I believe. People like McCann and Feeney, although now dropped down a level, are more experienced which we'll need against Italy. And realistically Worthy can't take the Faeroes lightly, even if the players do. We'd be quite pleased to scrape a 1-0 win. So no rush of debuts for fringe players there.

Agree that the manager is being cynical and I too think it unwise. I suppose the justification would be that with such a small pool we have to try everything.

As I'm sure you'll agree, no-one is strictly tied: if they can't be bothered to commit, like S. Ireland or Biggles McCartney, they'll just bugger off. The players just don't seem as hardcore as you or I :teeth:


I wouldn't be surprised if PNE were in the lads ear to hang about. Worth way more to them as a future England international than pretty much any other nationality out there

Perhaps, but the realistic alternatives were him leaving Preston in January as a NI international, or as just another promising D2 youngster. Capello won't cap a championship player, except maybe as a keeper in a brainstorm.

[ifk101]

Did Barton merit inclusion based on his form? Or is it likely that Worthington included him simply in order to tie him to the IFA? Being cynical, I'd guess that it was the latter and, while I can understand why Worthington would do so, I don't think it is the best course of action - especially when one considers that it has already backfired twice. However, I suppose the IFA will feel that the odd media storm in a teacup can be tolerated if it means one talented youth gets tied.

That's my line of thinking as well (ie tie him to NI asap) which I suspected was also the case with Johnny Gorman's inclusion in the NI squad for the game against Slovenia.

There was a video interview with Nigel yesterday on the BBC site where he said he last talked to Adam Barton six weeks ago to gauge his interest in playing for the NI seniors (Barton was subsequently contacted by Beaglehole 10 days - 2 weeks ago to tell him he was in the squad). If I'm not mistaken it was just six weeks ago that Barton was coming into the Preston first team. Therefore I don't think Nigel's initial approach had anything to do with Barton's "current" league form. Similar to the capping of Johnny Gorman with a minute to go in a competitive fixture, Barton's inclusion in the squad was to tie him down to NI before the beggars came a knocking.

It's probable that with Shane Duffy and the CAS ruling, Nigel and the IFA believe this is the approach they need to take from now on - ie cap them young and early.

[geysir]

You hardly ever hear a car backfiring these days but the IFA are bucking the trend like a mistimed Trabant.

[dantheman]

I reckon there must be an FAI agent somewhere in the IFA Board Of Management.

They bring incompetence to new levels!!

[DannyInvincible]

Sorry, I misread your original post. of course the "unfair" comment was talking about the letters between IFA and FIFA

Does this mean FIFA still view the situation as being unfair on the IFA? Surely if FIFA genuinely thought it unfair, they'd have amended their rules accordingly. They've already redrawn the eligibility rules once since, if I'm not mistaken, and did nothing to ensure a more favourable position for the IFA.

The IFA make a few peculiar assertions.

(Page 5)
In 2006, the FAI was no longer complying with the "1950 FIFA Ruling" and the subsequent accord reached by the two associations. As a matter of fact, it was making approaches to Northern Ireland players who had no birth or residence connection with the territory of the Republic of Ireland.
Is this actually a matter of fact or are the IFA merely claiming it to be a matter of fact? Who are these players, if so, and is there proof of approaches having been made?

(Page 25)
IFA contends that as a matter of fact during the last 60 years there was a harmonious relationship between the two associations, each of which accepted that it should select players exclusively on the basis of a territorial connection and applied this approach without any variation to hundreds, if not thousands, of players.
The FAI were calling up northern-born Irish nationals such as Mark McKeever, Ger Crossley et al nearly a decade prior to 2006.

Overall, a very interesting and enlightening document. Clearly, the so-called "gentleman's aggreement" with the FAI was a figment of the IFA's imagination. From my knowledge of the relationship between the two associations, I had always expected that this was the case, but the judgment pretty much confirms it.

[geysir]

In fact, both Crossley and McKeever had been capped at youth level by NI prior to 1996 when they switched to the FAI.

[DannyInvincible]

Just had a look on OWC to guage reaction and I see the FAI being dubbed a "despicable organisation" for having allegedly refused to agree to previous FIFA attempts to broker a compromise. I find this a bit rich as it must be remembered the IFA also rejected a FIFA attempt to find an amicable solution; a proposal which the FAI actually accepted.

Furthermore, there's a train of thought which suggests that rejection of the appeal mightn't have been so inevitable if the IFA had gone down the line of attempting to argue more conclusively that northern-born Irish nationals qualify to play for Northern Ireland - a solely British team - by virtue of their Irish nationality. I'm not sure anyone could argue such a point any more conclusively seeing as it's a load of contrived and ingenuous nonsense. If the point could have been argued, it would have been.

[geysir]

there's a train of thought which suggests that rejection of the appeal mightn't have been so inevitable if the IFA had gone down the line of attempting to argue more conclusively that northern-born Irish nationals qualify to play for Northern Ireland - a solely British team - by virtue of their Irish nationality. I'm not sure anyone could argue such a point any more conclusively seeing as it's a load of contrived and ingenuous nonsense. If the point could have been argued, it would have been.

It can't be argued because NI is in the UK and only a British/UK national can play for NI.

[Not Brazil]

Overall, a very interesting and enlightening document. Clearly, the so-called "gentleman's aggreement" with the FAI was a figment of the IFA's imagination. From my knowledge of the relationship between the two associations, I had always expected that this was the case, but the judgment pretty much confirms it.

The IFA compound their cringeworthy approach to this whole matter by, seemingly, suffering from amnaesia in their deliberations with FIFA and the CAS about "agreements" made in Belfast on 25th January 1999 with the FAI.

[Not Brazil]

It's probable that with Shane Duffy and the CAS ruling, Nigel and the IFA believe this is the approach they need to take from now on - ie cap them young and early.

Hopefully so - subject to the caveat that their introduction does not weaken the aims and objectives of the team.

It's imperative that wasters are flushed out as early as possible - the "fast track" approach has merit in this regard.

[Charlie Darwin]

Yes he qualifies for us, the FAI's territory includes the 6 counties and therefore those descended from those born in the 6 counties qualify for both the IFA and the FAI.

'FAI territory' is that space of land where the new born are automatically entitled to Irish citizenship, not just the piece of land it has football jurisdiction over.
Has this actually been confirmed? We discussed it a few pages back (or maybe in another thread) and I concluded that's the only way FIFA could be consistent in their application, but I haven't actually seen it stated.


Does this mean FIFA still view the situation as being unfair on the IFA? Surely if FIFA genuinely thought it unfair, they'd have amended their rules accordingly. They've already redrawn the eligibility rules once since, if I'm not mistaken, and did nothing to ensure a more favourable position for the IFA.
I don't think they necessarily would. The situation is unfair on the IFA in a sense, but the IFA's solution would be unfair on individual players and (possibly) contravene their human rights at a severe stretch. I don't see how the IFA could possibly argue that their interests trump the right of an individual to seek to represent his country.


Just had a look on OWC to guage reaction and I see the FAI being dubbed a "despicable organisation" for having allegedly refused to agree to previous FIFA attempts to broker a compromise. I find this a bit rich as it must be remembered the IFA also rejected a FIFA attempt to find an amicable solution; a proposal which the FAI actually accepted.
To be fair, the second proposal was entirely advantageous to the FAI even though it had the veneer of equality.

[geysir]

Has this actually been confirmed? We discussed it a few pages back (or maybe in another thread) and I concluded that's the only way FIFA could be consistent in their application, but I haven't actually seen it stated.
I remember the discussion and the questions around the wording - esp 'territory'.
The only rational conclusion is confirmed by FIFA's consistent interpretation - that a player born abroad, to a parent/grandparent who was born in the territory that offers automatic citizenship to the Republic, is enough to qualify that player as eligible for the FAI - even if that territory is outside the association's jurisdiction.

Irish citizenship/nationality is the criteria for eligibility for the FAI
A Nordie, as we know, is a full blown citizen of the Republic, from birth, born in a territory that entitles him/her to Irish citizenship. So if that Nordie goes abroad and has kids, those kids have the same nationality/citizenship entitlements as the children of an emigrated Southerner. That is enough for FIFA as confirmed by their consistent interpretations.

[Charlie Darwin]

The point of contention was that Alex Bruce was the last player to qualify through a Northern relative and that was before the rule-change so it hasn't been tested recently. I agree it's the only interpretation that makes sense but I'll only believe it when I see it.

[sean r]

another question how did paul butler qualify to play for the republic?

[Charlie Darwin]

another question how did paul butler qualify to play for the republic?
His grandfather was Irish: http://foot.ie/threads/126140-Nolan-O-Hara-and-Naughton-possible-call-ups?p=1292410&viewfull=1#post1292410

[geysir]

The point of contention was that Alex Bruce was the last player to qualify through a Northern relative and that was before the rule-change so it hasn't been tested recently. I agree it's the only interpretation that makes sense but I'll only believe it when I see it.
The rule has not changed, the wording is exactly the same as it was when Bruce qualified.
I thought there were a few others with Nordie ancestry who declared since Bruce?

[IsMiseSean]

What was Alan Kernaghan's story? Born in England, played for NI schoolboys, but how was he connected with us?

[boovidge]

carl magnay's name flew around for a bit but I just think that was hysteria during the height of the NI fans' outrage re: duffy and kearns.

[co. down green]

What was Alan Kernaghan's story? Born in England, played for NI schoolboys, but how was he connected with us?

His grandparents on his father's side were Irish, so he qualified for us. The North didn't start using the grandparent rule until the mid nineties

[geysir]

carl magnay's name flew around for a bit but I just think that was hysteria during the height of the NI fans' outrage re: duffy and kearns.
At least I remember some young player with a Belfast/Nordie mum or gran who declared for us, there was picture in the paper of the proud smiling mum/gran,
blonde hair if that helps.

[Eminence Grise]

What was Alan Kernaghan's story? Born in England, played for NI schoolboys, but how was he connected with us?

I seem to recall hearing that one grandfather was born in Northern Ireland before partition. So he claimed that at that time the island was one country which entitled him to play for the Republic.

As an aside, did anybody ever hear the story that his uncle (or grand-uncle) was Jackie Wright, the little baldy guy Benny Hill used to slap on the head? He was born in Belfast at any rate. I'm sure I read it in an interview/profile years ago but can't recall where...

[paul_oshea]

So if one country changed his nationality criteria, that anyone born in brazil was entitled to nationality of that country, there could be a really good team produced...perhaps a separatist state in roscommon and we take all the brazillians who dont want to play for brazil. We could win the world cup.

Seriously though, thinking about that it does seem a little unfair.

[DannyInvincible]

So if one country changed his nationality criteria, that anyone born in brazil was entitled to nationality of that country, there could be a really good team produced...perhaps a separatist state in roscommon and we take all the brazillians who dont want to play for brazil. We could win the world cup.

Seriously though, thinking about that it does seem a little unfair.

That would be a bit ridiculous, but what's the relevance?

[ifk101]

So if one country changed his nationality criteria, that anyone born in brazil was entitled to nationality of that country, there could be a really good team produced...perhaps a separatist state in roscommon and we take all the brazillians who dont want to play for brazil. We could win the world cup.

Seriously though, thinking about that it does seem a little unfair.

Let's just keep the conversation specific to Ireland.

There's nothing unfair here. Eligibility is based on nationality not place of birth. Denying the right of Irish nationals to play for their country is unfair. FIFA proposed this to the FAI in 2007 (ie not to pick Irish nationals born in NI, which the FAI naturally rejected). FIFA then proposed that anyone born on the island of Ireland could play for which ever association they chose which the FAI accepted but the IFA rejected.

Ask yourself why the IFA reject that second proposal? Wasn't that the fairest proposal available to both parties - ie giving the individual player the choice to choose? Ask yourself what motivated the IFA to reject that proposal. Were they seeking fair play?

[Dodge]

A Nordie, as we know, is a full blown citizen of the Republic, from birth, born in a territory that entitles him/her to Irish citizenship.

This isn't strictly true as following the 2004 referendum children born in Ireland (32c) are not automatically entitled to Irish citizenship.

[osarusan]

Apologies if this question has been asked before, but I asked it about a year ago, and don't remember any conclusive answer.

If the IFA had accepted the proposal that any player born anywhere on the island could represent either association, that would have meant in effect ( I think) that Irish nationality made you eligible for either the ROI or NI team. That being the case, under FIFa regulations, players would have to fulfill the further criteria in section 18 (I think). Would that have meant that many of the NI players who are currently allowed represent the ROI team (because Irish nationality makes you eligible for the ROI only) would no longer be eligible, as they wouldn't meet the extra criteria necessary for players with a nationality which makes them eligible for different associations?

[geysir]

This isn't strictly true as following the 2004 referendum children born in Ireland (32c) are not automatically entitled to Irish citizenship.

True enough, the exceptions have already been well noted here often enough. The hypothetical context was about players born abroad who have already qualified for Irish nationality and looking to declare fpr the FAI, the assumption is that they are descended from Irish citizen/s.

[geysir]

Apologies if this question has been asked before, but I asked it about a year ago, and don't remember any conclusive answer.

If the IFA had accepted the proposal that any player born anywhere on the island could represent either association, that would have meant in effect ( I think) that Irish nationality made you eligible for either the ROI or NI team. That being the case, under FIFa regulations, players would have to fulfill the further criteria in section 18 (I think). Would that have meant that many of the NI players who are currently allowed represent the ROI team (because Irish nationality makes you eligible for the ROI only) would no longer be eligible, as they wouldn't meet the extra criteria necessary for players with a nationality which makes them eligible for different associations?
First and foremost the eligibility rules that are in existence before the 2 federations sit down together, are the the default rules.
According to FIFA protocol, should 2 federations (with FIFAs grace), come to another agreement, then the terms of eligibility are set within that special agreement.
The main agenda of the compromise proposal was already set by FIFA, specifically allowing free flow in both directions.
If the IFA and FAI wanted to set extra terms of eligibility (residence, ancestry etc) then they would have to specify those terms in the agreement and FIFA would have to agree to them.

[SwanVsDalton]

There's nothing unfair here. Eligibility is based on nationality not place of birth. Denying the right of Irish nationals to play for their country is unfair. FIFA proposed this to the FAI in 2007 (ie not to pick Irish nationals born in NI, which the FAI naturally rejected). FIFA then proposed that anyone born on the island of Ireland could play for which ever association they chose which the FAI accepted but the IFA rejected.

Ask yourself why the IFA reject that second proposal? Wasn't that the fairest proposal available to both parties - ie giving the individual player the choice to choose? Ask yourself what motivated the IFA to reject that proposal. Were they seeking fair play?

It's still unfair - a player from the North is much more likely to declare for the South than the other way round (excepting those not good enough for ROI who could mercenary their way into the NI setup). I can see why they would want to lock players from their territory, even if I don't agree with it.

[The Fly]

Ask yourself why the IFA reject that second proposal? Wasn't that the fairest proposal available to both parties - ie giving the individual player the choice to choose? Ask yourself what motivated the IFA to reject that proposal. Were they seeking fair play?

The IFA, quite naturally, rejected the second proposal because it would have lead to the creation of one single Irish international side.

[Dodge]

The IFA, quite naturally, rejected the second proposal because it would have lead to one single Irish international side.

Just like allowing British citizens to play for 4 sides has led to one single British side?

[The Fly]

Just like allowing British citizens to play for 4 sides has led to one single British side?

The crucial difference is that British 'citizens' are not allowed to play for any of the four British sides as of right.

[Dodge]

They are if they're not born in one of the 4 home nations.

Under the agreement the IFA rejected, they wouldn't have lost a single thing and would've gained the right to select players from ROI.

[The Fly]

They are if they're not born in one of the 4 home nations.


I was aware of that caveat. However, given that it's application is so rare - it's significance is negligible.



Under the agreement the IFA rejected, they wouldn't have lost a single thing and would've gained the right to select players from ROI.

They would have lost their credibility, and put their existance in jeopardy. It would be naive to suggest otherwise.