Player eligibility row

[DannyInvincible]

Bloody hell, Angloma still playing international football at the ripe old age of 45? Interesting you should mention Guadeloupe, by the way, and a bit of a coincidence, as, just last night, I was reading about Pascal Chimbonda playing for them three times in 2003 in what appeared to me to be an official competition - qualifiers for the CONCACAF Gold Cup - before then going on to win a cap for France. He even made the French 2006 World Cup squad, although he didn't make an appearance for them. His Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal_Chimbonda) was very straightforward and matter-of-fact about this peculiar aspect of his international career, as if there was nothing unusual about what appeared to me to be a bit of an anomaly, or certainly something in need of some further explanation, but it makes more sense to me now that you say FIFA don't actually recognise Gaudeloupe. Presumably, the CONCACAF Gold Cup isn't recognised by FIFA as official competition either then?

[sean r]

guadalope martinique st maartin are all members of concacaf but not fifa they are allowed to play in regional cups only. so any player from france who have connections to those 3 countries can play for them and france. they are all part of france and all all french citizens. the same for aruba and curasao in the carribean there for thierry henry can play for guadaloupe and france at the same time.

[irishfan86]

The Gold Cup is a sort of weird tournament, because every now and again you'll get a weird team invited, like Brazil U-21 or something. Ireland for Gold Cup glory? Haha...

[DannyInvincible]

Thought this bit from the CONCACAF Gold Cup's Wikipedia page was interesting:


When the Gold Cup does not fall the same year as an edition of the FIFA Confederations Cup, the winner, or highest place team that is a member of both CONCACAF and FIFA, qualifies for the next staging of that tournament.

So, if Guadeloupe were to win the Gold Cup, they wouldn't be put forward to the FIFA tournament.

[sean r]

i dont think they will be allowed to play in the confederations cup as they are not a "country" guadaloupe are part of france. and i can recall one time that south korea played in the copa america i dont know how they did. so ireland can be invited to play in the copa america or should we try the african cup of nations??

[DannyInvincible]

The Copa America organisers (CONMEBOL) usually invite two "outsiders" for each competition to make up the numbers. Usually, they invite CONCACAF sides, Mexico and the USA, or even Costa Rica, as they're geographically-close/culturally-similar, but I don't think there's anything to stop them inviting a European or Asian team, for example.

I think you must be thinking of Japan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copa_Am%C3%A9rica#Invitees


Since 1993, two teams from other confederations, usually from CONCACAF whose members are geographically and culturally close, are also invited. Nations receiving invitations are Costa Rica (1997, 2001, 2004), Honduras (2001), Japan (1999), Mexico (1993, 1995, 1997, 1999, 2001, 2004, 2007), and the United States (1993, 1995, 2007). The United States had been invited every time from 1997 to 2007 but frequently turned down the invitation due to scheduling conflicts with Major League Soccer. However, on October 30, 2006, the US Soccer Federation accepted the invitation for participation in the 2007 tournament, ending a 12 year absence. At 2001 Copa América, Canada was an invitee, but on July 6, 2001 withdrew because of security concerns.

[The Fly]

We're taking the p*ss now lads!.............;)


http://www.ourweecountry.co.uk/RoInipic.jpg

[boovidge]

appropriate stadium name too!

Does anyone actually have a recent squad pic for us? cant find one on the net

[irishfan86]

appropriate stadium name too!

Does anyone actually have a recent squad pic for us? cant find one on the net

This is on the FAI site, sorry it's not bigger:

http://www.fai.ie/images/stories/International/INT-Squads/senior.jpg

[DannyInvincible]

Gather round; did the IFA ever get back to your e-mail?

It's been nearly three weeks since CAS disappointingly responded to my e-mail with the following:


"The reasoned award will be notified to the parties in the coming weeks. Until such time, the CAS is unable to comment any further on the matter."

And that was over two weeks after they'd initially promised to publish the grounds for the decision within a few days of the decision being made. I wonder will they ever publish the full grounds... :rolleyes:

[geysir]

I suspect the IFA (in a rare moment of enlightenment) have put in a request for confidentiality and the CAS findings will not be made public.

[DannyInvincible]

"Gorman happy with Northern choice": http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/0904/gormanj.html

This guy's still only a 17-year-old school-boy, so I wonder will he feature again for a while now that he's tied for good. Or maybe he genuinely is a wonder-kid and is fully deserving of a regular place in the senior team. :p

[ArdeeBhoy]

Well even some of their own fans are now calling for every youth player to be capped in competitive games which is an interesting proposition. And doubtless would p*ss-off some of their more established squad.

The whole thing smacks of Desperation.

[Not Brazil]

Well even some of their own fans are now calling for every youth player to be capped in competitive games which is an interesting proposition.


Those fans are irrational.

Fast tracking young prospects, to protect our future interests, should not compromise our aims and objectives in trying to win competitive football matches.

[The Fly]

We're taking the p*ss now lads!.............;)


http://www.ourweecountry.co.uk/RoInipic.jpg


...now the Daily Star's in on the act! :laugh:

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/football/view/152292/Northern-Ireland-scrape-a-win-over-Armenia/

[DannyInvincible]

...now the Daily Star's in on the act! :laugh:

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/football/view/152292/Northern-Ireland-scrape-a-win-over-Armenia/

Ha, they even went to the bother of including a photo of Steven Craigan on whose jersey it clearly says "Slovenia". I suppose that's the standard of tabloid journalism for you in Brittany...

[ArdeeBhoy]

Those fans are irrational.

Fast tracking young prospects, to protect our future interests, should not compromise our aims and objectives in trying to win competitive football matches.

You were sounding reasonable there! Until you read what you said about Johnny Gorman and on the Boyce thread.....

[aidinho]

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid29318049001?bctid=592799131001

I wonder what Matt Holland and Andy Townsend think of Roy's sentiments?

(I would like to have heard a bit more of the Owen Coyle interview - from the clip it sounds as if he was an opportunist who decided to play for us - actually come to think of it .. Steve Bruce qualified to play for us too .. Irish interest in all three managers interviewed)

they were all opportunists mate who couldnae and wouldnae get a game for Scotland and England respectively so they just choose yous. Owen Coyle is just like Ray Houghton ie. Scotland didn't give him a 2nd look so they just picked the Republic because of their heritage.

[aidinho]

Well, England has the world's best goalkeeper at the moment!

Why is Lawro being a hypocrite?

ehhh....... because hes English?

[aidinho]

Going back to the point on Mark Lawrenson and whether he's ''Irish or not'', this is what he had to say regarding the Arteta situation and why he doesn't think he should play for England. Yesterday he said :


" No way should Mikel Arteta be picked for England.

"And that comes from someone who was born in Preston and yet played for the Republic of Ireland.

"The big difference is the blood line. My mother’s father was Irish, I wanted to play for Ireland and I just happened to be born in the wrong place.''

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Great-debate-Should-Mikel-Arteta-play-for-England-article562375.html

that's total bull. if England offered him the chance to play for them instead of the Republic he would have jumped at it. same goes for Matt Holland as well.

[Charlie Darwin]

I may have been mistaken on Lawro's ambitions to play for England. I could have sworn I'd read an interview with him saying he'd have jumped at the chance to play for England, but I haven't been able to find any evidence of it.

[ArdeeBhoy]

they were all opportunists mate who couldnae and wouldnae get a game for Scotland and England respectively so they just choose yous. Owen Coyle is just like Ray Houghton ie. Scotland didn't give him a 2nd look so they just picked the Republic because of their heritage.

Actually you're wrong. My pal was at school with Houghton and by virtue of his Glasgow/Donegal heritage all he ever wanted to do was play for Celtic and, er, Ireland.
Coyle always gave much the same impression, especially as he was even more of a fringe player for us than he would have been for the Scots?

As for Lawro' fairly sure he was keen enough at the time....
Maybe you can prove someone at Preston or Brighton thought he preferred Ingerland instead??
Don't know about Matt Holland but the one player you do have a point about is Andy Townsend.

[boovidge]

Lawro made his debut for us at 19 so he hardly waited around long.

[DannyInvincible]

I suspect the IFA (in a rare moment of enlightenment) have put in a request for confidentiality and the CAS findings will not be made public.

You're probably right. Just reading the following on the CAS website:


ARE THE ARBITRATION PROCEEDINGS CONFIDENTIAL?

The ordinary arbitration procedure is confidential. The parties, arbitrators and CAS staff are obliged not to disclose any information connected with the dispute.

In principle, awards are not published. The appeals arbitration procedure does not specify particular rules of confidentiality, but the arbitrators and CAS staff have a similar duty of confidentiality during the proceedings. Generally speaking, unless the parties agree otherwise, the award may be published by the CAS.

Here: http://www.tas-cas.org/en/20questions.asp/4-3-229-1010-4-1-1/5-0-1010-13-0-0/

It would be interesting to hear what the IFA have to say on the matter, which is why I was wondering if they ever got back to the e-mail GR sent them.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Don't know about Matt Holland but the one player you do have a point about is Andy Townsend. Townsend was a fantastic servant to us who gave his all in the green jersey and that's all anyone should ask of him.

He doesn't have to cease being English just because he's Irish too.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm. Plenty of times he was anonymous too.
As insipid a player, as a pundit now, totally over-rated for club & country IMHO.

No problems with his involvement now though, but read his book, he openly supported Ingerland in Euro'88.
Still, he saw the light....

[Lionel Ritchie]

I read his book. It's a brutal Hyland ghost write yoke but still ..."openly supported Ingerland" ...he was only born and reared there like.

Anyway I'll agree his punditry is about ITV standard but he was a great player for us ...and turned up to captain B games and friendlies when others cried off with itchyarse injuries.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fair enough. No problem with him supporting them, though not all the Diaspora would be as accommodating, as in 'born and reared there'. Since when was that a criteria for supporting any national team?

And yeah AT did the crappo friendlies, but he had to fight for his place. And of course Ireland played second fiddle to Fergie and a certain ego in many of those instances.

[Mr_Parker]

I suspect the IFA (in a rare moment of enlightenment) have put in a request for confidentiality and the CAS findings will not be made public.

I'm told it will be published at the end of the month.

[DannyInvincible]

I'm told it will be published at the end of the month.

Where did you hear this?

[geysir]

In an underground car park?

[Gather round]

It would be interesting to hear what the IFA have to say on the matter, which is why I was wondering if they ever got back to the e-mail GR sent them

Alas not. I will send a reminder on Monday next.

[Mr_Parker]

Where did you hear this?

Horses mouth.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Alas not. I will send a reminder on Monday next.

Yeah, that will work....

And the horse is dogfood now??

[Mr_Parker]

CAS Ruling in full....

http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/document/4385/5048/0/Award%202071.pdf

[Mr_Parker]

I presume item 3 in the conclusion was the awarding of costs?

[Mr A]

CAS Ruling in full....

http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/docu...ard%202071.pdf

I expect an IFA appeal on the basis that this was your 666th post and therefore the FAI are clearly in league with the devil. :)

[Predator]

Just had a quick perusal of the ruling. I felt like I was revising...

[ifk101]

The references made to the "1950 FIFA Ruling" by the IFA (and previously known as the supposed Gentleman's Agreement between the FAI and IFA) are quite interesting. Especially the part where the IFA confirm they could not produce the contents of this ruling (they were currently looking for them) but that the IFA "was not uncertain of the form it took". :bigsmile:


Edit: reading on; while the IFA and its supporters have constantly referred to the existence of a "Gentleman's Agreement" between the two associations, it is revealed that the FAI was not actually party to said agreement. Essentially this supposed "Gentleman's Agreement" is a letter from FIFA to the IFA telling the IFA "it was inadmissible to select players, being citizens of Eire" for its represenative teams.

[co. down green]

The references made to the "1950 FIFA Ruling" by the IFA (and previously known as the supposed Gentleman's Agreement between the FAI and IFA) are quite interesting. Especially the part where the IFA confirm they could not produce the contents of this ruling (they were currently looking for them) but that the IFA "was not uncertain of the form it took". :bigsmile:


Edit: reading on; while the IFA and its supporters have constantly referred to the existence of a "Gentleman's Agreement" between the two associations, it is revealed that the FAI was not actually party to said agreement. Essentially this supposed "Gentleman's Agreement" is a letter from FIFA to the IFA telling the IFA "it was inadmissible to select players, being citizens of Eire" for its represenative teams.

Sounds like this 'Gentleman's agreement' existed only in the heads of the IFA grand wizards.

The FAI for its part contends that the status of Irish citizens living in N. Ireland has never been discussed and that the FAI has never accepted that Irish citizens could not be selected for its team, whether they live in NI or elsewhere.

[Mr_Parker]

I expect an IFA appeal on the basis that this was your 666th post and therefore the FAI are clearly in league with the devil. :)

After last weeks IFA EGM some already believed that. :)

[dr_peepee]

Just seen that Preston youngfella Adam Barton pulled out of the NI full squad to keep his "Options Open"... Is he elligable for us??? Or is his "Option" England in this case??

[ifk101]

Sounds like this 'Gentleman's agreement' existed only in the heads of the IFA grand wizards.

It's quite comical tbh. The IFA are "not uncertain of the form it (the Gentleman's Agreement) took" but it wasn't agreed with the FAI and the FAI wasn't notified of its existence. And this 1950's "agreement" formed the basis of their appeal to the CAS.

[OneRedArmy]

In fairness, a gentlemen's agreement, by its nature is frequently unprovable, as it stands on both parties being gentleman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentlemen's_agreement

[geysir]

Some interesting revelations - at least to me.
The FAI did accept the FIFA compromise proposal in Nov 2007 but it was rejected by the IFA.
Page 18
64
7 March 2007,
'FIFA Legal Committee invited the FAI voluntarily to confine itself to selecting for its association teams Northern Irish players who meet one of the following requirements: a) the player was born in the Republic of Ireland, b) his biological mother or father was born in the Republic of Ireland, c) his grandmother or grandfather was born in the Republic of Ireland, or d) he has lived continuously, for at least two years, in the Republic of Ireland'.

'On 5 November 2007, FIFA informed the IFA that the FAI did not accept its proposal of 7 March 2007'.

'The FIFA Legal Committee made a “new proposal” and invited the IFA as well as the FAI to express its position on the following “suggested approach” …..' (aka the compromise)

'On 8 November 2007, the IFA expressed its disagreement with the proposal of the FIFA Legal Committee, which was however accepted by the FAI on 20 November 2007'.

[geysir]

page 23

'If the IFA analysis were correct, it would follow that the first and third sentences would deal with the exactly same situation, which would (be) inconsistent with any intelligible intention to be attributed to the rule-maker'. :D

[Dodge]

Really makes the IFA out to be quite amateurish.

The FAI, on the other hand, employed a swiss lawyer who referenced the Swiss Civil Code. Impressive.

[ifk101]

In fairness, a gentlemen's agreement, by its nature is frequently unprovable, as it stands on both parties being gentleman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentlemen's_agreement

True but the IFA in their appeal refer to the Gentleman's Agreement as the "1950 FIFA Ruling" and told the Court "that it was currently in the process of seeking a copy of the original ruling". But of the evidence produced, it is revealed that if there was a Gentleman's Agreement it was between FIFA and the IFA, as there isn't any evidence to show that the FAI was party to such agreement. And this "agreement" did not have the scope of application as preceived by the IFA.

Fast forward to 1999 and Jim Boyce the then IFA President is quoted as saying the following "The issue of Northern Ireland's eligible players opting to play for the Republic was discussed at length with the FAI. It was also stressed that if a player made an approach himself, there was little the FAI could do unless FIFA was to change legislation. That, we accept. But at least we have agreed to notify one another should this happen." Jim Boyle is also quoted as saying he is "delighted" with the outcome of these talks with the FAI.

If the Gentleman's Agreement of the 1950's existed as presented by the IFA, why would Jim Boyce be "delighted" with the outcome of talks between the two associations in 1999?

[geysir]

Page 23
79. 'The Panel noted that IFA also advanced an alternative argument that Mr Kearns had shared nationality because, as an Irish national (irrespective of his British nationality), he could play for either IFA or FAI and Mr Hunter asserted that it had always been the case that the IFA could select Irish nationals with a territorial connection to Northern Ireland. The absence of Irish nationality from the commentary on Annexe 2 is, he submitted, inconclusive. It was apparent to the Panel that the factual basis for the assertion was controversial and disputed by the FAI’s counsel. Since neither the factual nor legal basis for this argument was sufficiently established, the Panel is in no position to find in its favour'.

The correct answer is the IFA can only select British citizens for its representative teams. Yes it is a dual national statelet but it is still inside the UK, therefore only the British nationality is relevant to selection for the IFA teams.

[geysir]

In fairness, a gentlemen's agreement, by its nature is frequently unprovable, as it stands on both parties being gentleman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentlemen's_agreement
Page 25 /26
88. In contrast to non-binding rules of conduct such as gentlemen’s agreements, contracts forming a binding agreement require the mutual agreement of the parties. Such agreement may be either express or implied (Article 1 of the Swiss Code of Obligations). There is an implied agreement only when the behaviour of the party alleged to have agreed is consistent only with its having done so. In general, a passive behaviour cannot be held to amount to an agreement to be bound by a contract (ATF 123 III 53, 59). In other words, silence does not imply consent (François Dessemontet, in Commentaire Romand, Code des Obligations I, Bâle 2003, p. 14, ad. Art. 1, N. 32).


Finally, the existence of a “contract implied by conduct” is denied by the FAI, which disputes that it has ever discussed the status of Irish citizens living in Northern Ireland or accepted that Irish citizens could not be selected for its teams, whether living in Northern Ireland or elsewhere. The contrary has not, in the Panel’s view, been established by the IFA. In any event the IFA’s evidence fell short of establishing the binding nature of the alleged agreement or the legal/regulatory basis which would allow it to supersede Articles 15 to 18 of the 2009 Application Regulations.

'In any event, the alleged tacit agreement may not be used to defeat the claim of Mr Kearns, who was of course not a party to any such agreement and who, in any event, is entitled to exercise his rights as provided under Article 15 and 18 of the 2009 Application Regulations.'