Player eligibility row

[Gather round]

Should the CAS decide to uphold FIFA's position that Kearns is entitled to play for ROI, even though he and his immediate relatives were born in NI and never lived in ROI, then the ruling could have a huge impact on the future of football in Ireland and a particularly negative one for the team North of the border

Equally, it could have a more modest impact. Most obviously, many international footballers (including in NI's senior and particularly youth teams) are from outside the country. Ditto plenty of other countries, large and small. Even the Germans had a Brazilian ringer, England have struggled since they lost their Canadian.

Some top players from NI will turn out for the Republic instead, others from our youth sides will fall out of international football completely. I'm not denying that the net effect will be weaken the NI side, but to repeat there are reasons why nationalist-background players in future will continue to play for NI. Broadly, the team's easier to get into, any international football may be thought better than none (especially if it increases the chance of professional football in Britain or beyond), future players may see things differently from current fans and so on.


They stay with us and then they get cherry-picked when they are making a mark at their clubs. That is when the offer comes and inevitably it is the best players that are sought after

This is a bit silly. SB mades it sound like the FAI send round the child-catcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. In practice they pick the players they consider the best, the most likely to progress to the senior team. If Dogarse and his boss want to stop this happening, they could have made an effort to reach some bilateral agreement with the FAI. That neither side will choose anyone who's reached 18 and played adult representative games for the other.


What frightens the likes of Beaglehole is that NI, which has already been overtaken by ROI in terms of successfully qualifying for big tournaments

You what? They matched NI's record of three finals in 1994 and have qualified for one out of eight since. We're talking mediocre and more so here, not contrasting success and failure.


might become effectively an Irish B team should it suddenly become fashionable for young players in the North to defect to the South

Translation: it might be fashionable for a small number of very good players who are good enough to reasonably expect full international football for either and to have a choice. Since, almost by definition, there are few such players at any given time, it won't become fashionable.

For many people (including some comedians on this forum), NI is already a B team on the slightly tenuous grounds that it's short and mid-term record is weaker. Fine, but by the same reasoning the Republic regularly fielding five or six players from Britain makes them a B team too.

I recognise that some nationalist-background players might prefer no international games at all to playing for NI. Fine, their loss.


The defections have inevitably been from the nationalist community so far and should the trend escalate, tentative efforts to rid the sport of sectarianism in NI, would be smashed to pieces

Ill-informed nonsense. Even if by 'anti-sectarianism smashed' all he means is 'more than the odd nationalist plays for the South', I've explained above why this is unlikely to have an enormous effect. The NI team will continue to include nationalists, while most fans in nationalist NI will go on supporting the Republic. Which isn't sectarian either. The intent (and effect) of Football for All is to make the atmosphere at games and arround more welcoming, not to convert anyone.


if the IFA are proved wrong in Lausanne - as most people think they will be - then an increasing number of young players will be tempted to follow Kearns' path

There's nothing stopping them now, up to a competitive full international cap, or having already changed once.

[ArdeeBhoy]

It's perfect possible for me, or anyone else from NI to have only British nationality, but clearly to be Irish. Part of Ireland is part of Britain, remember?

Except yer own family! ;)
That aside, you are either Irish or British, not both. A
s we keep repeating the latter don't want to be Irish. Even the dogs on the street know that!
As awec said they barely acknowledge Paddy's Day. Which is fine.

And part of Ireland is in the dregs of the British, er, 'empire' as was. Britain ends, in your case, at Cairnryan!


Actually, it exists in every Northern Ireland election result for the past 90 years.
Created so specially for the unionists. With no account taken for the indigenous population.
Yawn.


Many of the people affected (ie, those born to non-nationals in the Republic, and the parents) will likely be refugees, or unable to return to their own countries for economic or other reasons, and thus to qualify for passports there.
I'd be delighted should you offer some evidence that reassures my concerns.
Or you could find it yourself if you were really that bothered, though I doubt your 'concerns' are in the remotest relevant.



1.8 million people = millions, even to a pedant like you, surely?

Said the Hypocrite to the bishop.



It's quite straightforwardly explained.
It doesn't really matter whether there are two million or 20 million in NI, if the Republic generally doesn't give them (including me, potentially) the vote, social services and the like, its costs are negligible.
That's not to deny the importance of what it offers to people in NI or beyond, but that's more symbolic.
Whereas the Southern electorate didn't seem to agree with you about the lack of a major issue locally - else they wouldn't have welcomed Ahern's populist stunt so enthusiastically.
If you say so. Precious few others are currently making it an issue. And again you don't mention for any reasons of concern about the latter!


I assumed they all had Irish lineage, but they're all English in the widely-recognised sense of having grown up and spent all/ most of their lives there, and probably in having British parents and British pasports to travel on before getting called up by the FAI.
Presumably you are unaware of the concept of Diaspora??
Being born outside your own country does not automatically mean you want to accept citizenship of the host!
90% of them have full Irish heritage in the 'purest' sense, which I only mention as you seem to think this is an issue!



I've challenged that reasoning on this thread, never mind OWC, as well as reading and replying to local NI nationalist fans. On this issue I agree with Mr Parker, Newryrep and others as I've said.
More importantly, you seem to be telling the local RoI fans why they support as they do. They're perfectly capable of explaining it themselves.
Amazingly enough you only think you've 'agreed' with them, whereas their replies don't really support this eccentric claim. Still if you want to think so, fine. Not seen you disagreeing with any such comments on OWB.

And not telling Nats from the North anything. Just know rather more about their views and mindset than your goodself and am sure they'd tell me if it was anything wrong??

[ArdeeBhoy]

They matched NI's record of three finals in 1994 and have qualified for one out of eight since. We're talking mediocre and more so here, not contrasting success and failure.

Except ours are in living memory. Yours are 26 years and counting by the time of 2012, though recognise, if there are play-offs for 2016 in its current ridiculous format, even the North could make those? :eek:


Fine, but by the same reasoning the Republic regularly fielding five or six players from Britain makes them a B team too.
I recognise that some nationalist-background players might prefer no international games at all to playing for NI. Fine, their loss.
A B team for who?? Like said upthread, they're all Irish citizens FFS. With that mindset, who can blame Nats for the latter.....

[The Fly]

Except yer own family! ;)
That aside, you are either Irish or British, not both.


err.............Good Friday Agreement Constitutional Issues part 1:

The participants endorse the commitment made by the British and Irish
Governments that, in a new British-Irish Agreement replacing the Anglo-
Irish Agreement, they will:

...(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fair enough Fly, but how many people actually have both?
Heard it was originally around 10k, around half of which was 'business users', though would be amazed if that number hadn't, er, rocketed at some point, before the crash.

[Gather round]

That aside, you are either Irish or British, not both

Sorry, this is just nonsense. I'm quite clearly, self-evidently both British AND Irish, however difficult that is for your Ladybird book of Cartoon Provo cliches to understand.


Created so specially for the unionists. With no account taken for the indigenous population.. Yawn

Correct me if wrong, but I'm fairly sure the nationalists get a vote too. Of course I accept the way the border's drawn is unfair, but if there wasn't one at all as you'd prefer, it would be more so. But don't let me disturb your beauty sleep.


Or you could find it yourself if you were really that bothered, though I doubt your 'concerns' are in the remotest relevant

Will do. I have in the past actually, I remember a doctor who was working in a Dublin maternity ward at the time telling me of the large proportion of births there to mothers from west Africa and eastern Europe who would struggle to pass on their own nationality on to their kids.

Apart from being relevant in themselves, my concerns are a response to your predictable, cliched, factually wrong assumption that the Republic offers equally to everyone in Ireland. It doesn't, so don't assume it's a clincher whatever the argument.


Presumably you are unaware of the concept of Diaspora?? Being born outside your own country does not automatically mean you want to accept citizenship of the host! 90% of them have full Irish heritage in the 'purest' sense, which I only mention as you seem to think this is an issue!

Now you're sending me to sleep. For what it's worth I assumed 100% of them had full Irish heritage, whatever in the purest sense means- maybe they've had some ritualistic Catholic bar-mitzvah or something? It's only an issue in the terms you raised it- all these people are eligible to play, but if a lot of them come from, or give support to, another country, it might create a nine day wonder in the media.


Amazingly enough you only think you've 'agreed' with them, whereas their replies don't really support this eccentric claim. Still if you want to think so, fine

The posters I quoted have made clear that their unwillingness to support NI has little or nothing to do with the choice of flag or anthem, the location of Windsor, or similar factors. They support the Republic of Ireland. I mean, I'm not making any particularly extravagant claim here.


Not seen you disagreeing with any such comments on OWB
Try the thread title referring Daniel Kearns, unless it's been deleted. I'll admit it was hard going- FHTB is almost as hard to have a rational discussion with as you are.


And not telling Nats from the North anything. Just know rather more about their views and mindset than your goodself and am sure they'd tell me if it was anything wrong??

Sharing their broad view (albeit at an exaggerated, cartoonish extreme) doesn't necessarily make you any better informed on it than I am. But to repeat- I'm not making any great claim, just judging people from what they post here.


Except ours are in living memory. Yours are 26 years and counting by the time of 2012

Admittedly I'm a gnarled veteran, but my memory of 1982 and 1986 is quite vivid thanks (as it is of 1988, 1990 and 1994). Like I said, more recently we're comparing mediocre and more mediocre.


though recognise, if there are play-offs for 2016 in its current ridiculous format, even the North could make those

Glad we agree on something. I'm still not convinced 24 teams will happen, let's see how Poland/ Ukraine goes.

[Gather round]

...(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland

Indeed. Although of course, my clear both-Irish-and-Britishness long predates 1998. As I said, I'm a gnarled veteran. Just to stress the point- I don't need [Republic of] Irish citizenship to be Irish. So the figure for those who've applied for joint citizenship, although interesting generally, is irrelevant to how Irish I am.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I'm quite clearly, self-evidently both British AND Irish, however difficult that is for your Ladybird book of Cartoon Provo cliches to understand.
Ha ha. Well if yer the benchmark, then both countries should apply to disband immediately!

If you can find vast swathes of people who claim similar I'd be amazed. My experience of most unionists is that they are 'Irish' by default having been born on the island, but don't want anything to do with the vast majority of the population or their vision of idenity or culture, including Prods from outside the osc who they see as 'selling out'.
Taken from the same book of 'cliches', you refer to, in the usual paranoid manner.



Correct me if wrong, but I'm fairly sure the nationalists get a vote too. Of course I accept the way the border's drawn is unfair, but if there wasn't one at all as you'd prefer, it would be more so. But don't let me disturb your beauty sleep.
WTF are you on about?? Everyone who's half-wise knows the whole thing was gerrymandered.



I have in the past actually, I remember a doctor who was working in a Dublin maternity ward at the time telling me of the large proportion of births there to mothers from west Africa and eastern Europe who would struggle to pass on their own nationality on to their kids.
Apart from being relevant in themselves, my concerns are a response to your predictable, cliched, factually wrong assumption that the Republic offers equally to everyone in Ireland.
Pomposity Alert!
Very touching, but hardly relevant now.
Your patronising concerns are wholly false as you think it's a useful issue to support your views against the Irish state, you now 'claim' to be part of above?? :eek:




It's only an issue in the terms you raised it- all these people are eligible to play, but if a lot of them come from, or give support to, another country, it might create a nine day wonder in the media.
Actually you raised the issue, implying they weren't Irish because they had lived elsewhere. presumably more irony?



The posters I quoted have made clear that their unwillingness to support NI has little or nothing to do with the choice of flag or anthem, the location of Windsor, or similar factors.
Except you said it. And am fairly confident those are all partial issues, but then you haven't presented any evidence from any nationalists!
We await your response with interest.


Try the thread title referring Daniel Kearns, unless it's been deleted.
Yer the one saying how wonderful OWB are. Go on there and convert them instead?? Enough others have tried!


Sharing their broad view doesn't necessarily make you any better informed on it than I am.
Why not let them be the judge but am fairly confident on this one I'm right and you're wrong! Lol.



Admittedly I'm a gnarled veteran, but my memory of 1982 and 1986 is quite vivid thanks (as it is of 1988, 1990 and 1994).
Hmm. Hardly in keeping with the consistency in your arguments on here.....
Especially, with regards to amnesia!

[awec]

ArdeeBhoy seems to be failing to grasp the most basic of things if he thinks that you are either Irish OR British.

Everyone born on this island is Irish. Part of the island is also British.

Just like anyone born in Scotland is Scottish and British. They are not Scottish OR British.

[Mr_Parker]

The following is a piece by Paul Rowan, in The Sunday Times.

Under FIFA rules, any player who has a passport for a country can represent them provided they have some link to the nation they represent.

The rule was tightened in recent years to stop abuses, particularly by Brazilians who were popping up on international teams in the Middle East after being handed passports. In Duffy's case, his parents were born in Donegal, so the IFA did not pursue that case, but they believe that Kearns is a test case they can win because his relatives were born in NI.

Terrible research by the journalist.

[Gather round]

If you can find vast swathes of people who claim similar I'd be amazed

I haven't claimed vast number, nor indeed anyone. I've merely pointed out that having been born in Ireland, grown up there, been to school, college, work etc., sounding Irish and er, wanting to identify as Irish, I AM Irish. It's quite simple really. If other similar-background people don't want to join me, I disagree with them (although I think you exaggerate the extent to which they deny Irishness).


Taken from the same book of 'cliches', you refer to, in the usual paranoid manner
Look, if you don't want to be dismissed as cliched, stop spouting cliches. All that "don't want anything to do with the vast majority of the population or their vision of idenity or culture" means is basically 'don't want a united Ireland'.


WTF are you on about?? Everyone who's half-wise knows the whole thing was gerrymandered
Er, I agreed the way the border was drawn was unfair (particularly to the 11% who were nationalists in what became NI). Not having a border would have been equally unwelcome to the 17% unionist minority in Ireland. Just as unfair to more people, so arguably worse overall?


think it's a useful issue to support your views against the Irish state, you now 'claim' to be part of above??

I don't claim to be part of the [Republic of] Irish state, I'm from a different country which includes part of Ireland. Try to understand the difference.


Actually you raised the issue, implying they weren't Irish because they had lived elsewhere. presumably more irony?

I didn't imply that. I said they were English because in most cases they'd grown up almost entirely in England, probably with English parents (my only arguable implication was that, if they qualify through grandparentage, other close relations are likely to be not Irish, most obviously er, English). No irony needed.


Except you said it. And am fairly confident those are all partial issues, but then you haven't presented any evidence from any nationalists!

I referred you to Mr Parker only yesterday on this thread. He said "Anyway, I think to many are caught up in the location of the ground. That is not what most Nationalists who refuse to darken its doors and support NI would point to as their reason, it is only one of many". I might be wrong in my assumption that his existing support for the RoI is the main one, but he can asnwer himself. Newryrep's unequivocal comment I will dig out of the index.


Yer the one saying how wonderful OWB are. Go on there and convert them instead?? Enough others have tried!

On the broad eligibility issues, it should be fairly obvious I disagree with many on OWC. I've no problem with players from NI appearing for the South (unless they've already played for NI as adults). As for the CAS thing, I think it's both pointless (ie inevitably destined to lose), wasteful (the IFA is skint as it is) and indeed vindictive.


Why not let them be the judge but am fairly confident on this one I'm right and you're wrong! Lol

Of course. It's a discussion board, no doubt they'll have their say shortly.

[co. down green]

As NI U21 manager Steve Beaglehole put it to The Sunday Times: "They were some of our most promising players. They stay with us and then they get cherry-picked when they are making a mark at their clubs. That is when the offer comes and inevitably it is the best players that are sought after."

Marc Wilson and Darron Gibson were not making a mark for their clubs when they decided top play for Ireland. They were both 16 when they joined the Ireland underage set-up.

Perhaps Beaglehole should consider how he came to persuade promising Manchester United youth player Oliver Norwood to leave the English youth set-up to join him. Over 25 English born youth players have been 'cherry picked' by Beaglehole to represent the North in the last few years. The large number of players has attracted the concern of the English FA and players like Joe Dudgeon have been contacted by the English FA about his future intentions.

Its quite clear that it is palyers who are contacting the FAI with the intention of representing Ireland as was the case with Wilson, Duffy and almost all of the current crop of players from Derry like the McEleney brothers.

[Gather round]

CDG, as I've agreed earlier in the thread Beaglehole is being a hypocrite, but do you have any links for the English FA's supposed concern? I'd say the most likely of the guys you mention to have a choice to make is the Watford defender, Lee Hodson. Only 19, but with 20-odd games in the Champ last term he could conceivably be in our full side soon at right-back. Let's be honest, his chance of England U-21 is probably marginal and of displacing Glen Johnson, zero.

[Charlie Darwin]

WTF are you on about?? Everyone who's half-wise knows the whole thing was gerrymandered.
Perhaps they do, but everyone who knows the definition of the word "gerrymandered" knows that they'd be wrong.

If the border had been gerrymandered, they would have given over more territory to the Free State.

edit: well strictly speaking gerrymandering doesn't apply at all to national borders but you get the gist of it

[ArdeeBhoy]

CD,
My post was a little sarcastic. But Gerrymandering can work both ways you know.



I've merely pointed out that having been born in Ireland, grown up there, been to school, college, work etc., sounding Irish and er, wanting to identify as Irish, I AM Irish.
Hmm. The GFA allows for this, not that it means anything conclusive. Except to make allowances for a miniscule no.of oddballs.
But again, amnesia springs to mind as you keep telling us you're British! And how you want nothing to do with the indigenous population of Beal-feirste!!
And not Irish in the sense that most Irish people would accept it, eg. by way of passport, culture etc.


Look, if you don't want to be dismissed as cliched, stop spouting cliches. All that "don't want anything to do with the vast majority of the population or their vision of idenity or culture" means is basically 'don't want a united Ireland'.
Similarly, them rejecting the vast majority of the island, whether they wish to be 'united' or not.



Not having a border would have been equally unwelcome to the 17% unionist minority in Ireland. Just as unfair to more people, so arguably worse overall?
Or they could always have moved to the Britain they, er, idolise so much......

I don't claim to be part of the [Republic of] Irish state, I'm from a different country which includes part of Ireland. Try to understand the difference.
Only on a definition based on an illegal occupation. Great.


I said they were English because in most cases they'd grown up almost entirely in England, probably with English parents (my only arguable implication was that, if they qualify through grandparentage, other close relations are likely to be not Irish, most obviously er, English). No irony needed.
Except in most cases you'd be wrong, hence the comment re.irony!

I referred you to Mr Parker only yesterday on this thread. He said "Anyway, I think to many are caught up in the location of the ground. That is not what most Nationalists who refuse to darken its doors and support NI would point to as their reason, it is only one of many". I might be wrong in my assumption that his existing support for the RoI is the main one, but he can asnwer himself. Newryrep's unequivocal comment I will dig out of the index.
Assuming you can talk for them, in at least one instance thought detected at least a slight hint of sarcasm/irony, which doubtless they'll confirm?? And dozens of other Nats will of course agree with you. Not. Lol.

[Sullivinho]

Ladybird book of Cartoon Provo cliches

For future reference, that phrase would sound a lot snappier if you omitted 'cartoon' which is effectively already implied by 'Ladybird'. 'Ladybird book of Provo clichés' - see how much easier that rolls off the tongue? Assuming you employ it as much verbally as you do in composition.


Terrible research by the journalist.

And a cautionary tale about the dangers of Google's 'I'm feeling lucky' button.

[Gather round]

Hmm. The GFA allows for this, not that it means anything conclusive
Whatever you think the GFA allows for is irrelevant- I don't need it to be Irish. I was Irish for decades before the GFA was a twinkle in Mo Mowlam 's eye. How many times?


But again, amnesia springs to mind as you keep telling us you're British!

Yes- I'm British and I'm Irish too. Yippee!


And how you want nothing to do with the indigenous population of Beal-feirste!!

Apart from me being as "indigenous" as anyone else from Belfast (ie, not at all), when did I say I wanted nothing to do?


And not Irish in the sense that most Irish people would accept it, eg. by way of passport, culture etc

See above. In your blinkered World, only the majority who want a united Ireland count- even if they're never been near Ireland. For God's sake, do better?


For future reference

I suggest you follow your own advice and do some research. All Ladybird books explain simply- unsurprising as they're aimed at little kids- not all are cartoonish. Apologies if I repeat myself, it's understandable given the sheer volume of nonsense spouted by AB and occasionally echoed by you.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Address your issues re.Amnesia and you have your answer.
Though I suspect memory loss, selective or otherwise, will prevail!

[Charlie Darwin]

CD, My post was a little sarcastic. But Gerrymandering can work both ways you know.
Gerrymandering just doesn't apply. The word "gerrymandering" refers to the manipulation of borders within a state to ensure electoral dominance, whereas the borders between Northern and Southern Ireland were drawn in such a way as to maximise territorial dominance. I probably wouldn't have pointed it out except that if you're to cling to these archaic civil war politics then you might as well get the details right.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Whatever you think the GFA allows for is irrelevant- I don't need it to be Irish. I was Irish for decades before the GFA was a twinkle in Mo Mowlam 's eye.
Apart from me being as "indigenous" as anyone else from Belfast (ie, not at all), when did I say I wanted nothing to do?
Yeah right! See above.


All Ladybird books explain simply- unsurprising as they're aimed at little kids- not all are cartoonish. Apologies if I repeat myself, it's understandable given the sheer volume of nonsense spouted by AB and occasionally echoed by you.
Pomposity alert!
Assuming of course GR doesn't spout any nonsense which of course is far from the case!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Gerrymandering just doesn't apply. The word "gerrymandering" refers to the manipulation of borders within a state to ensure electoral dominance, whereas the borders between Northern and Southern Ireland were drawn in such a way as to maximise territorial dominance. I probably wouldn't have pointed it out except that if you're to cling to these archaic civil war politics then you might as well get the details right.

Except that I've already said it was tongue-in-cheek, even accepting your definition of gerrymandering in an Irish context. And have never ever mentioned the civil war on this MB, or elsewhere, for that matter.

[Charlie Darwin]

It's not just my definition! And I believe calling the state of Northern Ireland an "illegal occupation" would fall under the banner of civil war politics. Unless you were being sarcastic about that too; in which case it might be worth looking into why your sarcasm is so easily conflated with your serious points.

[seanfhear]

Fair dues to youse posters you sure like an argument (Ye could argue for Ireland)

[Predator]

This is a bit silly. SB mades it sound like the FAI send round the child-catcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. In practice they pick the players they consider the best, the most likely to progress to the senior team. If Dogarse and his boss want to stop this happening, they could have made an effort to reach some bilateral agreement with the FAI. That neither side will choose anyone who's reached 18 and played adult representative games for the other.Agreed. Beaglehole, along with Worthington, coming out with ignorant babble. I couldn't help but laugh at their comments at the time and I still can't help but laugh.

Ill-informed nonsense. Even if by 'anti-sectarianism smashed' all he means is 'more than the odd nationalist plays for the South', I've explained above why this is unlikely to have an enormous effect. The NI team will continue to include nationalists, while most fans in nationalist NI will go on supporting the Republic. Which isn't sectarian either. The intent (and effect) of Football for All is to make the atmosphere at games and arround more welcoming, not to convert anyone.Indeed, well said GR. I have a feeling that Rowan wants to come across as 'even-handed' to both sets of supporters and his poorly researched, spurious assertions do not help his case whatsoever.




There's nothing stopping them now, up to a competitive full international cap, or having already changed once.Exactly. This whole idea of Shane Duffy's (and Kearns') decision to change opening the proverbial floodgates is nothing more than sensationalism. Players have been switching for years.

[gspain]

PS I think GS was wondering aloud about whether Dublin plates might increase the likelihood of his car being stolen or damanged if parked aroud the Holywood and Shore Roads near Glentoran and Crusaders. I'd like to hope not.

I've never had a problem at either ground but both are located in less affluent areas of Belfast. It wouldn't stop me going to either ground for a game I wanted to see
but I'd be less likely to go on a whim. I've parked at both without a problem. For either I'd arrive really early and park right at the gate. There are areas near quite
a few LoI grounds where I'd be reluctant to park too.

For Windsor I can turn off the Motorway, go up the Lisburn Road and park on leafy Windsor Avenue where anyone would have a better class of car than mine to steal/damage.

By sheer coincidence I was just talking to a friend tonight and a mutual friend of ours was meant to go to Cliftonville v FC United yesterday but decided not to for fear his car would
be stolen/damaged.

[Predator]

Good Ol' Nige is hoping for common sense to prevail tomorrow. Is he switching allegiance too?

Nigel up for FIFA battle (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/sport/nigel-up-for-fifa-battle-14879837.html#)


FIFA insist that if a player holds an Irish passport then he qualifies to play for the Republic due to the Good Friday Agreement. But Northern Ireland boss Worthington insists: “We need to clarify the situation and I just hope common sense prevails.”

[geysir]

So once the case has been completed at CAS, will it be known as 'he's declared on a Kearns' from then on?

[Predator]

The following is a piece by Paul Rowan, in The Sunday Times.
I was unable to find a link, so I've just typed it out.Thanks for typing the article out Fly, but the article is awash with nonsense. I think Rowan got lazy, or else he was bluffing all along.

[Sullivinho]

So once the case has been completed at CAS, will it be known as 'he's declared on a Kearns' from then on?

It'd be one way for the lad to make a name for himself. Probably not the method he'd personally have gone for though.

[DannyInvincible]

All NI-born (players) are Irish. I'm 100% Irish, just like you.

Good man, delighted to have you on side. ;)


There are plenty of dubious aspects about its application, and others worthy of debate, maybe elsewhere. Just to repeat a couple briefly- it looks odd that the Republic will happily offer citizenship to pretty much everyone in NI, but won't automatically do so for everyone born in the South. As confirmed by nearly 80% in a recent constitutional referendum.

Are you sure? I think you're mistaken or else my understanding of the application of Irish citizenship law throughout the whole island is incorrect. To the best of my knowledge, however, it makes no distinction regarding place of birth on the island in terms of accessibility, entitlement or right. The amendment you mention also applied to those born in the north; the effect of the amendment was to prospectively restrict the constitutional right to citizenship by birth to those who are born on the island of Ireland to at least one parent who is (or is someone entitled to be) an Irish citizen. After all, the need to tighten up the "loophole" derived from the Chen case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_case); when a foreign national gave birth to a child in Belfast and was thereby able to claim residency rights in the UK as the mother of a child in possession of Irish/EU citizenship.


Many of the people affected (ie, those born to non-nationals in the Republic, and the parents) will likely be refugees, or unable to return to their own countries for economic or other reasons, and thus to qualify for passports there. Which must create the real risk that they'll be stateless.

I haven't had a look at the relevant legislation in a while, but I'm pretty sure it does include a provision conferring citizenship (or allowing for the the possibility of such) onto those born in Ireland to foreign nationals who would otherwise be stateless, presumably by virtue of circumstances beyond their control or whatever other factors might restrict them from claiming a citizenship they might normally be entitled to. In such an instance, Irish citizenship can be conferred by the Minister for Justice, or possibly it has automatic application from birth; not completely certain. Anyhow, I believe the relevant legislation conforms with a 1954 UN convention relating to stateless person. One thing I know for certain, however, is that there's no legal vacuum there. I hope that soothes any anxiety. ;-)


As for the irredentism (although I think the name's overblown), it's still there. Every political institution in the South has reuniting Ireland as a major theoretical objective, even if we all know you won't see them for dust if it ever becomes even a remote posibility in practice.

Pretty much every act and declaration by the British government in the recent contemporary past, bar voluntarily relinquishing the union with Northern Ireland, has more or less vindicated the notion that a united Ireland is a perfectly legitimate aspiration. Odd considering Northern Ireland's supposed integral part of the UK?... Northern Ireland certainly is no longer considered an intrinsic constituent part of the UK like, say, England or Scotland are - if it ever was at all, always having been a bit of a constitutional anomaly within the UK - and a legal pathway is in place for its departing from the union. If the UK felt this so-called Irish irredentism was completely and unquestionably illegitimate, the notion alone of Northern Ireland's departure from the union wouldn't be so seriously entertained.


This is a bit over the top, Danny. Wanting guys from Derry or Newry to play for NI doesn't quite equate to exclude dsisenters, deny their nationalism or whatever.

I don't know. I mean, telling an Irish national that he shouldn't be allowed to represent his country in the sporting sphere is kind of denying him his national identity. I'm really not trying to sensationalise anything here. It's quite simple to see the implications of a desire to restrict his right.


Has FHTB banned you then? Look, we feel your pain, but it isn't the end of the World. Just re-register. Ardee Bhoy will lend you one of his numerous aliases. Just remember to use the phrases 'paranoid planters' and 'medieval theme park' in every post and you'll be fine.

Hehe, I can't remember which thick buffoon it was banned me last time, although I have been banned on two occasions, supposedly for using threatening and abusive language under a previous third account - of which I have no recollection whatsoever of ever creating or using - or something. I never quite got an answer as to when this occurred or what it involved exactly. Anyway, I've gotten over that and try to remind myself that I'd only be wasting my time trying to spell a few things out there anyway. I do find it a bit frustrating, mind you, to see such unmitigated rubbish, ignorance and misinformation not merely spouted by the likes of 'fhtb' about things I care about, but also applauded and defended so vehemently by others even less knowledgeable than he, God help them. Nevertheless, I appreciate your sympathy. ;)


It doesn't really matter whether there are two million or 20 million in NI, if the Republic generally doesn't give them (including me, potentially) the vote, social services and the like, its costs are negligible.

If I wanted to be picky, I could point out that Irish nationality entitles those living outside the state in possession of it to an Irish passport - and those rights that come with possessing a passport - as well as diplomatic support from Irish embassies or consulates abroad. So, something of substance at least beyond symbolic recognition.

As for the Rowan piece posted by 'The Fly', I appreciate the effort of going to the bother of typing it up, but it really is quite a poor article. 'Gather round' has offered a good dissection of it above. Personally, I think the least Rowan could have done, if he was going to do an article on the CAS case, would have been to actually quote the relevant statute correctly instead of, OWC-style, completely misrepresenting what it states. Then he might be able to even try and understand its implications. And "Gibsongate"?! Good Lord, where the hell did that obscenity originate? Thankfully, I've never heard anyone refer to it as that. Ever.


Perhaps they do, but everyone who knows the definition of the word "gerrymandered" knows that they'd be wrong.

If the border had been gerrymandered, they would have given over more territory to the Free State.

edit: well strictly speaking gerrymandering doesn't apply at all to national borders but you get the gist of it

Beyond the morality of the partition of Ireland, I think it's clear that, while 'ArdeeBhoy' might be using "gerrymandering" in a technically incorrect context, he's treating it as being synonymous with the idea of manufacturing a state - like how an electoral boundary might be manipulated to favour a certain group over another - as big as it possibly could have been while at the same time ensuring a secure population bias in favour of as many Irish unionists as possible for the foreseeable future. Any bigger and the population balance would have been tipped in favour of nationalists/Catholics; any smaller and it would have struggled to sustain itself and left a lot more disgruntled unionists than a few thousand Protestant landowner's in east Donegal. I don't think that is such a controversial idea.


Good Ol' Nige is hoping for common sense to prevail tomorrow. Is he switching allegiance too?

Nigel up for FIFA battle (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/sport/nigel-up-for-fifa-battle-14879837.html#)

Ha, indeed! Let's completely ignore what the relevant statute says in favour of Worthington's personal vision of "common sense"... :clown:

[ArdeeBhoy]

Spot on, Danny.

The only downside will be GR's doubtless uber long-winded and pompous response....

And based on the initial 'response' below, witless besides of course, being geographically challenged!

[Gather round]

The only downside will be GR's doubtless uber long-winded and pompous response....

Up yer bum, English Bhoy.

[geysir]

Whatever you think the GFA allows for is irrelevant- I don't need it to be Irish. I was Irish for decades before the GFA was a twinkle in Mo Mowlam 's eye. How many times?
-------
Yes- I'm British and I'm Irish too. Yippee!

A constitution does not make people feel something that they are already.
The relevance of the constitution is that it recognises and legally guarantees the validity of the identities. The relevance of the GFA is that the identities are cemented with the principle of dual full citizenship from birth in the North, established as a fundamental constitutional right in the North and democratically accepted as so by the voters in the North.
Another relevance of the GFA is that the citizenship laws were changed in the South and are applied equally over the whole Island.
In other words, an established legal and social harmony with FIFA eligibility statute 15.

[Den Perry]

Fair dues to youse posters you sure like an argument (Ye could argue for Ireland)

Or argue for Britain...or both Ireland and Britain....

[Lionel Ritchie]

Any idea what time we'll have some white smoke? Incidently, might just be lazy reporting but, a few articles I've been scanning start with something along the lines of. "IFA officials travel to Lausanne today..." "Daniel Kearns travels to Lausanne today..." etc. Unless this thing is on after lunch -shoudn't they have travelled yesterday? Otherwise I do hope someone brought a flask of tea and some corn beef sandwiches ...though I doubt that many Clare folk work for the IFA.

[awec]

I've never had a problem at either ground but both are located in less affluent areas of Belfast. It wouldn't stop me going to either ground for a game I wanted to see
but I'd be less likely to go on a whim. I've parked at both without a problem. For either I'd arrive really early and park right at the gate. There are areas near quite
a few LoI grounds where I'd be reluctant to park too.

For Windsor I can turn off the Motorway, go up the Lisburn Road and park on leafy Windsor Avenue where anyone would have a better class of car than mine to steal/damage.

By sheer coincidence I was just talking to a friend tonight and a mutual friend of ours was meant to go to Cliftonville v FC United yesterday but decided not to for fear his car would
be stolen/damaged.
Cliftonville were playing at Donegal Celtics ground, which is right beside Lenadoon.

I wouldn't go into Lenadoon with a squad of Marines ffs.

I've never had a problem parking at any IL grounds, but Donegal Celtic is one I would never drive to.

[Gather round]

I have a feeling that Rowan wants to come across as 'even-handed' to both sets of supporters and his poorly researched, spurious assertions do not help his case whatsoever

What irritates me about much of the hysteria on OWC is this assumption that, should we lose a few players, the team will wither away. Rowan seems to be drawing on it. There are plenty of European countries with a smaller playing pool than even purely unionist NI. And they do OK.


Good man, delighted to have you on side
My pleasure, although of course I've always been onside. I've always been from Northern Ireland and thus Irish.


I think you're mistaken or else my understanding of the application of Irish citizenship law throughout the whole island is incorrect
We're both right, I think, if slightly at cross-purposes. I said "it looks odd that the Republic will happily offer citizenship to pretty much everyone in NI, but won't automatically do so for everyone born in the South". I was distinguishing between people like me (lifelong Irish, eligible for but uninterested in a RoI passport), and kids born in the South to parents determined to make a life there. Who won't be eligible. Of course I accept that kids born in NI to non-Irish parents may not be eligible either.

Thanks for the link to the Chen case.


In such an instance, Irish citizenship can be conferred by the Minister for Justice, or possibly it has automatic application from birth; not completely certain

If the latter, that does reassure my concern, thanks.


Pretty much every act and declaration by the British government in the recent contemporary past, bar voluntarily relinquishing the union with Northern Ireland, has more or less vindicated the notion that a united Ireland is a perfectly legitimate aspiration

Pretty much qualified there, Danny. Everything trivial contradicted by the one thing that's important, basically. Of course it's a perfectly legitimate aspiration, like Shay Given or Aaron Hughes lifting the cup at Euro 2012. But it isn't realistically going to happen.


Northern Ireland certainly is no longer considered an intrinsic constituent part of the UK like, say, England or Scotland are - if it ever was at all, always having been a bit of a constitutional anomaly within the UK - and a legal pathway is in place for its departing from the union

It had 50 years of devolution/ autononomy, then 30 of ongoing violence. The latter would probably have had a 'place apart' effect even if the former hadn't happened. Now, we've got devolution again- and the Scots and Welsh have it too. Theoretically, Scotland could vote itself out of the union in the near future. We all know this is very unlikely to happen. Voters will happily elect the SNP to Holyrood, then drop them in every Westminster election. The legal pathway you mention will only be relevant if nationalists

a) get significantly more than 50% in an election (or pass the threshold in two or three). Getting 50.1% in one poll not enough, as it might easily fall to 49.9% weeks or months later

b) persuade the South to take you on. Bit of a leap that, when they've been standing by for decades without actually doing anything about it. If they had, Derry Cityside or Newry could have been in the Republic decades ago

c) get enthusistic, unquestioning agreement from unionists. Instead of, say, a suggestion to limited re-partition.


I mean, telling an Irish national that he shouldn't be allowed to represent his country in the sporting sphere is kind of denying him his national identity

If FIFA replaced their grandparentage rule with one only referring parents, it would have a similar effect. Plenty of proud RoI and NI internationals wouldn't have been allowed to play, but who says that would have denied them any part of their proud patriotism? Similarly Pat Jennings, Martin O'Neill, Alan Kernaghan weren't any less able to enjoy their identity simply by playing for an international side that wouldn't ncessarily have been their first choice. So I think you're exaggerating a bit, although admittedly the aggressive atitude taken by the IFA and many NI fans may go some way to explain this.


If I wanted to be picky, I could point out that Irish nationality entitles those living outside the state in possession of it to an Irish passport - and those rights that come with possessing a passport - as well as diplomatic support from Irish embassies or consulates abroad. So, something of substance at least beyond symbolic recognition

No need to be picky. My point was that providing those documents, rights and support costs very little. My parents worked for the Brit Foreign Office abroad for years and providing consular support to tourists who'd lost their passports or money was a very minor sideline. Following directly from that, offering the service doesn't cost much more for six million people in Ireland than it does for four. Why doesn't the Dublin government give the passport-holders a vote too for a small fee: then we could have an interesting battle for the last seat in Diaspora North-east...


Beyond the morality of the partition of Ireland, I think it's clear that, while 'ArdeeBhoy' might be using "gerrymandering" in a technically incorrect context, he's treating it as being synonymous with the idea of manufacturing a state - like how an electoral boundary might be manipulated to favour a certain group over another - as big as it possibly could have been while at the same time ensuring a secure population bias in favour of as many Irish unionists as possible for the foreseeable future

Broadly agreed. Of course there was gerrymandering as precisely defined in NI anyway (eg in Derry). You can see how the name got applied retrospectively to partition of the island as a whole. And why many people on the more moderate branches of nationalism use it as AB does.


Any bigger and the population balance would have been tipped in favour of nationalists/Catholics; any smaller and it would have struggled to sustain itself and left a lot more disgruntled unionists

Disagree with the latter point. Although I recognise the need at the time to placate disgruntled unionists as well as nationalists, Northern Ireland could have survived perfectly well with a smaller population and geographical area. Luxembourg manages well; Cyprus managed yet another partition despite being much smaller than NI, let alone Ireland as a whole. Not least because NI retained the security of still forming part of the much bigger Britain.

[Gather round]

The relevance of the constitution is that it recognises and legally guarantees the validity of the identities. The relevance of the GFA is that the identities are cemented with the principle of dual full citizenship from birth in the North, established as a fundamental constitutional right in the North and democratically accepted as so by the voters in the North. Another relevance of the GFA is that the citizenship laws were changed in the South and are applied equally over the whole Island. In other words, an established legal and social harmony with FIFA eligibility statute 15

I recognise the importance of the GFA, it's just rather less relevant- irrelevant- to my identity than others'.

[co. down green]

Cliftonville were playing at Donegal Celtics ground, which is right beside Lenadoon.

I wouldn't go into Lenadoon with a squad of Marines ffs.



The hundreds of FC United fans over from England seemed to have a great day out at the DC's Suffolk Road ground

[Wolfie]

By referring to your team as "Ireland", you are having a dig at my team, therefore me. For whilst I normally accept the (incorrect but) casual use of "Ireland" on threads like these when referring to the FAI team generally, when it is placed directly alongside the NI team, it is quite simply wrong (and irritating).

Not my choice of title; if you want to know whose it was, perhaps you might take another look at whose website it was I quoted? After all, when it comes to the issue of nomenclature etc, I've seen ROI fans on here refusing to recognise the authority of FIFA; now it seems you are reluctant even to accept that of your own Association...

Not particularly, no. Afaiaa, it was the SFA who objected most strongly to that suggested title.

Seeing as it is actually easier, quicker and more correct to post "ROI" (and NI), it is arguably you who is being pedantic, by insisting on "Ireland". (I'll put the Celtic Cup reference down to ignorance/laziness)

A delayed response to this as I was unfortunately due back on planet earth for a while.

Firstly, I'll refer to "Ireland" as much and as often as I like, whether we are playing Northern Ireland or otherwise. No Ireland fans refer to themsleves as "ROI". We are identified by countries fans the world over as Ireland. If this irritates you - get a life. I'm not going to abandon what I call my country - just to comply with your specific world view.

I was not having a dig at you or your team in my original post - any offence taken could be put down to paranoia, ignorance/laziness on your part.

Who really gives a f*ck what the tournament is called anyway?? You obviously knew what I was referring to. Why get hung up on overly officious titles of tournaments when it was apparent what I was talking about???

[gspain]

Cliftonville were playing at Donegal Celtics ground, which is right beside Lenadoon.

I wouldn't go into Lenadoon with a squad of Marines ffs.

I've never had a problem parking at any IL grounds, but Donegal Celtic is one I would never drive to.

Didn't realise it wasn't in Solitude. Although I suspect you'd be safer going to DC without a squad of marines than with one.

I actually did drive there in 1990 when we played DC in a pre-season friendly. Left the car there overnight as well having
stayed in the Social Club until closing time (which was sometime after it got bright the following morning).

[Gather round]

Heh. As you probably know, a lot of us up here think as EG does, although we wouldn't be brave enough to make an issue of it on foot.ie. That is, we just get mildly irritated at people equating the Republic with all of Ireland. It's pretty similar to others saying 'England' when they mean 'Britain'. In most cases it's just common use and no wind-up is intended, but there you go.

Echoing Wolfie's point, in most of the rest of the World it's just Ireland. The more so since Northern Ireland isn't a Worldwide news story any more. But of course you do something because it suits you, not dependent on what foreigners think. But recently, on another board, Wolfie's point was made by a Belgian guy. He lives in Nivelles, a suburban town near Brussels. An area in which many cities and villages- and even some streets in central Brussels- have two or three names.

Without wanting to lapse too far into whataboutery, earlier in the thread I found myself typing 'Home Internationals', before correcting. Clearly that would be seen as a wind-up, ditto the 'British Lions' in rugby union. And at least one prominent poster on this thread gets annoyed at references to 'the South', even though he must realise it's widely used in Northern Ireland.

[Charlie Darwin]

I like to think of it like Virginia and West Virginia. The original state got to keep its name and the breakaway territory adopted a qualifier.

[Gather round]

I like to think of it like Virginia and West Virginia. The original state got to keep its name and the breakaway territory adopted a qualifier

Aye, like the Irish League and the LoI.

[The Fly]

Any idea what time we'll have some white smoke?


...don't use that phrase on this thread! ;)

[Mr_Parker]

Good Ol' Nige is hoping for common sense to prevail tomorrow. Is he switching allegiance too?

Nigel up for FIFA battle (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/sport/nigel-up-for-fifa-battle-14879837.html#)

Article in full..


IFA TAKE ON THE BOSS
IFA in Lausanne to tackle FIFA chief over player eligibility row

THIS is it ...
The last throw of the dice.
No more chances, no more appeals.
The Irish Football Association must tomorrow convince the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne that the most powerful man in football, FIFA President Sepp Blatter, was wrong to support the Republic in the eligibility row concerning a Northern Ireland-born player.
An IFA delegation led by Chief Executive Patrick Nelson, President Raymond Kennedy and two lawyers will aim to prove FIFA are going against their own rules and statutes by allowing the Football Association of Ireland to select players born in Northern Ireland who have no affiliation with the Republic.
Under FIFA statutes a player can only perform for a country if he is born in that particular nation or his parents/grandparents come from that country or if he has lived for two years continuously on the territory of the relevant association.
However 16 months ago, while at a FIFA conference at the Slieve Donard hotel in Newcastle, Co Down, Blatter stunned Irish FA chiefs and Northern Ireland fans by insisting the Republic is entitled to select any player born in Northern Ireland who holds an Irish passport due to the Good Friday Agreement.
This ruling by Blatter, it seems, totally flies in the face of his and FIFA’s own rules.
While the FAI celebrated what they believed was victory in the case, the IFA took advice before deciding to battle FIFA head-on at the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne.
The Irish FA in recent years have lost three players — Darron Gibson, Marc Wilson and Shane Duffy — to the Republic, despite these young guns being born in Northern Ireland and playing for IFA under-age sides.
While the IFA has no major objections with Duffy and Wilson changing allegiance as they qualify through the parent/grandparent rule, those in power at Windsor Avenue believe FIFA, in line with their statutes, should have stopped the FAI from selecting Londonderry-born Gibson, as he has no family connections with the Republic.
The IFA fear Northern Ireland could lose more young players to the FAI this way and so, after failing with FIFA, they feel they were left with no option but to file their submission with CAS.
Northern Ireland manager Nigel Worthington is tired of losing players to the Republic who have come through the IFA under-age system and he has called for “common sense” to prevail in Lausanne.
“We have got to be positive and believe that the CAS will find in our favour,” says Worthington.
“I see it as a black and white decision. There can no longer be any ‘ifs, buts or maybes’. That is not good for the Association and those coaches working with young players and selecting teams.
“We need to clarify the situation and I just hope common sense prevails.
“I’ve said from day one that the association is right and proper in taking the case to the CAS and trying to show FIFA the errors of their ways because no-one else is looking after us. We have to look after ourselves.
“We produced, in Darron Gibson and Shane Duffy, two very good players who will be around the top end of football for years to come. We put time and effort as an association into their international careers, as have the coaches who worked with them over the years.
“When the time comes, there is a loophole there that has been exploited and that’s not right.
“We need that dealt with firmly by people at the top end of football.
“This is similar to the ongoing row about goal-line technology. Common sense tells you FIFA should introduce goal-line technology.
“It makes sense for FIFA to bring in video goal-line technology and it makes sense for CAS to back our case.”
The Irish FA will put forward their arguments tomorrow, but a decision from CAS isn’t expected until later this week. This time, if the ruling goes against the IFA — there is no avenue for appeal. They really are at the last chance saloon...

[Sullivinho]

"This is similar to the ongoing row about goal-line technology. Common sense tells you FIFA should introduce goal-line technology. It makes sense for FIFA to bring in video goal-line technology and it makes sense for CAS to back our case."

That would be the same goal-line technology that the IFA voted against when given a chance to decide it's fate, thus consigning it to oblivion for the forseeable future aye? :laugh:

[Gather round]

That would be the same goal-line technology that the IFA voted against when given a chance to decide it's fate, thus consigning it to oblivion for the forseeable future aye? :laugh:

The same, although I don't see the problem with Nige contradicting what some other IFA hack said at the last FIFA international board meeting. I doubt they had an earlier meeting to mandate the delegate. He may simply have expressed a personal view, or followed Onkel Sepp's lead.

As Blatter seems now simply to have changed his mind under gentle pressure after the Tevez/ Neuer incidents, the foreseeable future looks unnecessarily pessimistic. You could see it trailed in the next U-20 or u-21 competition, say.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think most people actively involved in the game support goal-line technology. It seems to mainly be technocrats and players from the good old days before there were nets in the goals who oppose it on ideological grounds.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Answering my own question -ruling not expected for several weeks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/8836124.stm