Player eligibility row

[gspain]

Actually the Northern Ireland fans voted for Jennings as their best ever player a few years back with Best in 2nd place. Big Pat played 119 times of course incl 2 World Cups and winning 2 Home Championships. George only got 37 caps.

[Newryrep]

Just reading article 18 again, the way it is worded provides a crucial insight into how "nationality" should be read in article 16 where a player is "eligible to represent more than one Association on account of his nationality", the article the IFA are asking the CAS to ensure FIFA uphold. Article 18 begins:

The IFA's case rests on the word "nationality" in article 16 referring to a fusion of all nationalities held by a particular player - for example, if his nationality was considered "Irish-British"/"British-Irish", this single nationality would entitle him to play for more than one team, Ireland and, say, Northern Ireland - but it is clear from the wording of article 18 that FIFA treat each nationality held by a player as distinct from any other nationalities he might hold. The article distinguishes between a player having more than one nationality (which is the case for those players born in the north who possess both Irish and British nationality) and players eligible to play for more than one team due to a single nationality (for example, British nationality would permit a player to play for any of the "Home nations" before the application of further conditions restricting players with British nationality to play for one). There is no such thing as a single "Irish-British" nationality; rather, there are separate Irish and British nationalities, and, importantly, this is how FIFA view the concept of nationality. That might sound a bit convoluted and I'm not sure how well I've articulated what I'm trying to say, but I think you can get the gist of it anyway. Essentially, it means the IFA's case is destined to fail.

Danny out of the last thread, that was the jist of I think Geysirs? , reasoning that the nationality referered to is a single nationality (which entitles them to play for different teams) wheres the IFA thinks it means the plural eg dual nationality. But as was pointed out , dual nationalitys etc are covered elsewhere and Irish nationality alone does not entitle somebody to play for the north The IFA should be argueing for achange in the rules as opposed to the rules being enforced

[Wolfie]

I think we should have a dedicated thread in Other Stuff where others so inclined as myself can point and laugh at people who do this. :-D

Not your most articulate post, Lionel.

The duplicate reference to derivatives of "Other" was disappointing. I'll resist the temptation to point and laugh.

[Predator]

I read in the Irish Star on Saturday that Shane Duffy's association change may not receive FIFA clearance until after the CAS case and as such he may not be able to play in May (although he will be able to participate in the training camp). I appreciate that there is no rush; Duffy is young and should have many more chances to play in the future, but it confused me somewhat, given that Duffy is not subject to the IFA's appeal. Even if he doesn't get clearance in time for the May friendlies, is there any guarantee that he'll be cleared in time for the U21 games in August? After all, this CAS case has the potential to drag on.

I wonder have FIFA or the FAI actually specified that they will not deal with any further association changes concerning Irish players because of the whole CAS thing? Surely not, since Daniel Kearns received clearance after a few months and was able to play for the U19s in their recent games.

[greendeiseboy]

I read in the Irish Star on Saturday that Shane Duffy's association change may not receive FIFA clearance until after the CAS case and as such he may not be able to play in May (although he will be able to participate in the training camp). I appreciate that there is no rush; Duffy is young and should have many more chances to play in the future, but it confused me somewhat, given that Duffy is not subject to the IFA's appeal. Even if he doesn't get clearance in time for the May friendlies, is there any guarantee that he'll be cleared in time for the U21 games in August? After all, this CAS case has the potential to drag on.

I wonder have FIFA or the FAI actually specified that they will not deal with any further association changes concerning Irish players because of the whole CAS thing? Surely not, since Daniel Kearns received clearance after a few months and was able to play for the U19s in their recent games.

I thought Duffy's case didnt apply here as he qualifies through parentage regardless of where he was born and his situation is different to the case being brought by the IFA.

[Predator]

I thought Duffy's case didnt apply here as he qualifies through parentage regardless of where he was born and his situation is different to the case being brought by the IFA.
Exactly, which is what confuses me. Perhaps it is because the articles under review are concerned with players holding more than one nationality changing and by default all such players are subject to review and prohibited from changing while the case runs its course? However, Daniel Kearns' recent selection would suggest otherwise. The IFA have, in the media at least, acknowledged that Duffy is not subject to their appeal, but who knows how their case is being presented.

[lopez]

And maybe the Star are talking b*ll*cks.

[Charlie Darwin]

Yeah, there is no case to be heard over Duffy's nationality. NI were angry about the manner of his defection but they're not challenging its legality.

[DannyInvincible]

Danny out of the last thread, that was the jist of I think Geysirs? , reasoning that the nationality referered to is a single nationality (which entitles them to play for different teams) wheres the IFA thinks it means the plural eg dual nationality. But as was pointed out , dual nationalitys etc are covered elsewhere and Irish nationality alone does not entitle somebody to play for the north The IFA should be argueing for achange in the rules as opposed to the rules being enforced

I fully understand that and completely agree. That's more or less what I was saying. The part you highlighted was just me proposing what exactly it would entail were the IFA's interpretation correct. Of course, such obviously isn't the case as nationality is a singular concept and FIFA expressly acknowledge and stipulate this in article 18, so we know such an interpretation to be incorrect.

[co. down green]

And maybe the Star are talking b*ll*cks.

That sounds about right.


I wonder have FIFA or the FAI actually specified that they will not deal with any further association changes concerning Irish players because of the whole CAS thing? Surely not, since Daniel Kearns received clearance after a few months and was able to play for the U19s in their recent games.

Daniel Kearns would have been playing for us well before Christmas but for the hold up in his papers from FIFA, these things can take a bit of time and that’s likely the case with Duffy.

Derry player Thomas McBride had his first call-up to the u19 side (as well as Kearns) after the IFA went to CAS, and Shane & Patrick McEleney have continued to be selected, so there is certainly no agreement not to field players from the North.

If I recall from the last occasion, the FAI stopped fielding players for a short period on instruction from FIFA , prior to their legal teams decision, which again came to the conclusion that players born in the North continued to be eligible for Ireland. They were then free to be selected again as the issue had been clarified by FIFA. The IFA also refused a compromise deal from the FAI, which would have allowed the northern association to field players from the whole island, It was flatly turned down by the IFA grand wizard and his association.

FIFA seem to be fully supportive of the FAI in the case being brought by the North to CAS, and its hardly surprising as their own legal department have made the same ruling in favour of the FAI on three separate occasions over the last number of years.

I'm no expert about CAS but are they not obliged primarily to apply the various regulations of FIFA when reaching their decision? Its difficult to see a positive outcome for the IFA as it is pretty black & white under current statutes.

[DannyInvincible]

I'm no expert about CAS but are they not obliged primarily to apply the various regulations of FIFA when reaching their decision? Its difficult to see a positive outcome for the IFA as it is pretty black & white under current statutes.

Indeed, what puzzles me is how the IFA can think they have any chance with their case. As far as I'm aware, the IFA have gone to CAS in relation to articles 15 and 16 of the FIFA statutes. I would assume, then, that CAS can only arbitrate over the dispute with regard to the interpretation these articles. I don't imagine it can operate outside these statutes or apply new rules of its own to override them if the IFA has requested that these are the ones they look at.

Is this relevant from the CAS site (http://www.tas-cas.org/en/20questions.asp/4-3-226-1010-4-1-1/5-0-1010-13-0-0/)?


WHAT LAW DO THE ARBITRATORS APPLY ?

In the context of ordinary arbitration, the parties are free to agree on the law applicable to the merits of the dispute. Failing such agreement, Swiss law applies.

In the context of the appeals procedure, the arbitrators rule on the basis of the regulations of the body concerned by the appeal and, subsidiarily, the law of the country in which the body is domiciled. The procedure itself is governed by the Code of Sports-related Arbitration.

[Predator]

Just looking at that CAS site and there doesn't seem to be any date for a hearing (http://www.tas-cas.org/en/infogenerales.asp/4-3-544-1092-4-1-1/5-0-1092-15-1-1/) yet. I wonder when the hearing will actually take place, given that the IFA have kicked up enough of a fuss already since the announcement of Duffy's decision.

[geysir]

Lopez called it right, the Star report is bollíx.

However Delaney got it wrong earlier
Delaney confident (http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2010/04/09/story116768.asp)
"but I’m hopeful that CAS will support us,” he added. “They’ve already done that during the week by allowing Daniel to play for us. So it’s as you were until it’s heard in CAS.”

CAS have nothing to do with allowing Kearns to play. FIFA allow the player to play because the IFA's objection is not recognised by FIFA as having any merit.
Everything is the same as it ever was.

In fact, I don't think FIFA even have to go CAS and throw themselves at the mercy of CAS arbitration. The FIFA statute allows a dissatisfied member one month or so, to appeal a decision with CAS.
We all know that time period has elapsed.
FIFA can just tell the IFA to go and do what we would all like them to go and do.

[DannyInvincible]

Has it even been confirmed yet whether CAS will grant a hearing? Can one be granted if the time period has elapsed?

[geysir]

So far it is only the IFA who have confirmed that they intend to go to the CAS.
Delaney appears to indicate that he has been informed of something when he says he thinks the CAS hearing will happen in the next few months.

The IFA could, on their own bat, request an advisory opinion from the CAS which is not binding.
FIFA are not obliged to submit to arbitration.
According to CAS
"For a dispute to be submitted to arbitration by the CAS, the parties must agree to this in writing. Such agreement may be on a one-off basis or appear in a contract or the statutes or regulations of a sports organization. Parties may agree in advance to submit any future dispute to arbitration by the CAS, or they can agree to have recourse to the CAS after a dispute has arisen."

But should FIFA agree to arbitration, then the CAS judgement is binding.
AFAIAA the CAS follow Swiss law. For instance should one of the eligibility statutes be found to have an unclear wording then it has to be interpreted against FIFA.
Unclear wording would be any ambiguity or unclear provisions in the eligibility statutes.

The IFA have no real case with their objections to FIFA interpretation and application of article 15 and 16.
So what's the worst that can happen?
The worst is that FIFA are forced to change the wording of one of the eligibility statutes.
CAS just give a binding interpretation of the statutes as they are written.
The CAS have no power to force FIFA to adopt different rules of eligibility.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Just looking at that CAS site and there doesn't seem to be any date for a hearing (http://www.tas-cas.org/en/infogenerales.asp/4-3-544-1092-4-1-1/5-0-1092-15-1-1/) yet. I wonder when the hearing will actually take place, given that the IFA have kicked up enough of a fuss already since the announcement of Duffy's decision.

Perhaps the CAS don't see Paranoia as an 'argument'.....

[The Fly]

There was a small piece by Paul Rowan, regarding this ongoing saga, in The Sunday Times.

I can't find a link, so I've just typed it.


IFA court bid to stop exodus to South

Football authorities in Belfast have vowed to continue their legal battle to stop players born in the North playing for the Republic of Ireland, despite receiving a serious setback at the Court of Arbitration for Sport, in Lausanne.

It's emerged that the IFA made legal representations to the court to stop Belfast-born player Daniel Kearns playing for the Republic of Ireland U19 team against Poland on April 8th, though no announcement was made at the time and their bid was rejected. Kearns played in the game and scored the winning goal in a 1-0 victory for the Republic.

"We can confirm that representations were made to the court regarding Daniel Kearns," the IFA said in a statment to The Sunday Times, before confirming that their efforts would continue. "We have submitted our appeal brief to CAS, and we will argue it there."

What is become increasingly clear is how much this case is revolving around Kearns, the 18 year-old West ham reserve team player, rather than more high-profile defectors such as Darron Gibson of Manchester United, Portmouth's Marc Wilson and Shane Duffy of Everton, who are now members of the senior Republic of Ireland squad. However, unlike Duffy for instance, it is belived none of Kearns' immediate relatives were born in the Republic.

FAI chief executive John Delaney has said he has been contacted by players born in the North who "have come to me and said they won't ever play for Northern Ireland. One player was always going to be the test case for going to CAS and Daniel Kearns is that."

IFA chief executive Patrick Nelson refused to comment and while the two associations are keen to stress that relations are good, it is clear that the issue is causing tension behind the scenes. The anxiety is most keenly felt in the North where there is anger that resources are wasted on players who go on to play for the Republic and concern that the situation may worsen if their legal steps fail.

CAS says an announcement of a hearing date will be made "in due course."

[Predator]

[i]It's emerged that the IFA made legal representations to the court to stop Belfast-born player Daniel Kearns playing for the Republic of Ireland U19 team against Poland on April 8th, though no announcement was made at the time and their bid was rejected. Kearns played in the game and scored the winning goal in a 1-0 victory for the Republic.

"We can confirm that representations were made to the court regarding Daniel Kearns," the IFA said in a statment to The Sunday Times, before confirming that their efforts would continue. "We have submitted our appeal brief to CAS, and we will argue it there."I'd love to know the details of their bid to stop Kearns from playing. I wonder why no one knew about it? What's more, can you imagine if they had succeeded? I doubt Kearns would have been too happy. Do you think he'd have represented NI again?

[DannyInvincible]

There was a small piece by Paul Rowan, regarding this ongoing saga, in The Sunday Times.

I can't find a link, so I've just typed it.


IFA court bid to stop exodus to South

Football authorities in Belfast have vowed to continue their legal battle to stop players born in the North playing for the Republic of Ireland, despite receiving a serious setback at the Court of Arbitration for Sport, in Lausanne.

It's emerged that the IFA made legal representations to the court to stop Belfast-born player Daniel Kearns playing for the Republic of Ireland U19 team against Poland on April 8th, though no announcement was made at the time and their bid was rejected. Kearns played in the game and scored the winning goal in a 1-0 victory for the Republic.

"We can confirm that representations were made to the court regarding Daniel Kearns," the IFA said in a statment to The Sunday Times, before confirming that their efforts would continue. "We have submitted our appeal brief to CAS, and we will argue it there."

What is become increasingly clear is how much this case is revolving around Kearns, the 18 year-old West ham reserve team player, rather than more high-profile defectors such as Darron Gibson of Manchester United, Portmouth's Marc Wilson and Shane Duffy of Everton, who are now members of the senior Republic of Ireland squad. However, unlike Duffy for instance, it is belived none of Kearns' immediate relatives were born in the Republic.

FAI chief executive John Delaney has said he has been contacted by players born in the North who "have come to me and said they won't ever play for Northern Ireland. One player was always going to be the test case for going to CAS and Daniel Kearns is that."

IFA chief executive Patrick Nelson refused to comment and while the two associations are keen to stress that relations are good, it is clear that the issue is causing tension behind the scenes. The anxiety is most keenly felt in the North where there is anger that resources are wasted on players who go on to play for the Republic and concern that the situation may worsen if their legal steps fail.

CAS says an announcement of a hearing date will be made "in due course."

Cheers for that.

Details are still a bit vague though. Are the IFA now at appeal stage then? The article mentions that an announcement of a hearing date will be made in "due course", but was/were the "bid"/"representations" that was/were rejected turned down as part of a first hearing or what? What exactly does a "bid"/"representations" mean?

Also, even if CAS were to decide that Kearns wasn't eligible to represent us, am I correct in thinking that he wouldn't be able to switch back to Northern Ireland, having already made one switch?

On a side-note, I wonder does Shane Duffy even know that he's a senior international squad-member now? :P

[geysir]

Thanks for typing that out Fly.
It does not appear that FIFA have agreed to arbitration, which is their prerogative.

Anyway, CAS can do f all, except look for an uncrossed t in the statutes.
All FIFA would have to do is cross the t.

[awec]

I'd love to know the details of their bid to stop Kearns from playing. I wonder why no one knew about it? What's more, can you imagine if they had succeeded? I doubt Kearns would have been too happy. Do you think he'd have represented NI again?

Wouldn't bother me, it's the principal of it. He could never play another International game again for all I care.

It REALLY gets on my tits when players defect. Kearns has played for us at youth level, if he was never interested in playing for us proper the IFA should have dumped him out on his hole years ago so that he didn't waste our time and effort.

FFS, he lad has played AGAINST the Republic and scored for us AGAINST the republic. What a waste of space, effort and money he was.

I fully support the IFA fighting this. Yes, players have a right to play for the republic, but the republic is ripping the ass out of it, waiting until WE develop players and then sticking their arm in. If you want players, take them before they play for us. I have no problem with players shifting sides if they at least have the decency to do it before playing for NI at youth level.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think you're overestimating the "space, effort and money." It would have cost the same amount of money whether he was in the squad or not and surely he paid back the time and effort (if not the money too) with goals and performances. I mean, when you break up with your girlfriend (this is not a prediction or a promise), do you demand your money and effort back, or do you dwell on the betrayal and what could have been? I can understand NI fans feeling let down or taken a bit for mugs, but they should just come out and admit it instead of dragging up all this "money invested" hokum.

[co. down green]

It REALLY gets on my tits when players defect. Kearns has played for us at youth level, if he was never interested in playing for us proper the IFA should have dumped him out on his hole years ago so that he didn't waste our time and effort..

Have you penned a strongly worded letter to the IFA about their 'acquisition' of England youth internationals Oliver Norwood & Ryan Blake?

[awec]

Have you penned a strongly worded letter to the IFA about their 'acquisition' of England youth internationals Oliver Norwood & Ryan Blake?


I don't support that either. Players should play for the country they are born in. I know we have players playing now who are dodgy, but I'd rather we didn't.

[awec]

I think you're overestimating the "space, effort and money." It would have cost the same amount of money whether he was in the squad or not and surely he paid back the time and effort (if not the money too) with goals and performances. I mean, when you break up with your girlfriend (this is not a prediction or a promise), do you demand your money and effort back, or do you dwell on the betrayal and what could have been? I can understand NI fans feeling let down or taken a bit for mugs, but they should just come out and admit it instead of dragging up all this "money invested" hokum.
We are being taken for mugs. Guys like Kearns think they can hitch onto our youth system and then sod off elsewhere. People like that need a good boot up the hole and need to waken up. We aren't interested in you if you aren't interested in us, so if you want to play for the ROI they should sod off to play for the ROI and never put on a NI shirt.

[co. down green]

I don't support that either. Players should play for the country they are born in. I know we have players playing now who are dodgy, but I'd rather we didn't.

I suggest you contact the IFA forthwith and demand the removal of your 80+ capped goalkeeper Maik Taylor!!

[DannyInvincible]

It REALLY gets on my tits when players defect.

The IFA's situation isn't so "special" that it's the only association in the world to suffer from "defections". It happens all over the world. Oh, and just to keep you straight as regards footballing etiquette and nomenclature, what you sulkingly dub a "defection" is generally referred to as a "change of association" by FIFA and the rest of the global footballing community. Just so you don't feel left out of the big party... ;-)


What a waste of space, effort and money he was.

Vague, unquantifiable balderdash, if not just downright suspect anyway.


I fully support the IFA fighting this.

Out of interest, how do you rate the case's chances? I genuinely don't mean to sound sarcastic or overly incredulous, but are Northern Ireland fans actually optimistic?


Yes, players have a right to play for the republic, but the republic is ripping the ass out of it, waiting until WE develop players and then sticking their arm in.

It's either a right or it isn't. You either take advantage of that right or you don't. There's no such thing as "ripping the ass out of it".

Even so, you're still overstating the FAI's use of this right. At what point do you deem a player "developed"? You're basing your argument on more unverifiable and wishy-washy claptrap. Gibson, for example, was playing under the auspices of the FAI from under-17 level. You couldn't claim you developed him into the player he is today by then, surely? As of yet, he's the only "defector" to turn out for our senior team. How many "defectors" have there been in total? Hardly "ripping the ass out" of anything. Even if you could somehow rip the ass out of a perfectly legitimate entitlement!


If you want players, take them before they play for us. I have no problem with players shifting sides if they at least have the decency to do it before playing for NI at youth level.

Once again, the IFA aren't the only association to suffer from "defections". It's all part and parcel of the modern game worldwide as per FIFA's current statutes. Maybe the IFA should look into petitioning FIFA for a rule-change. Your argument suggests that these players will owe something to the IFA if they turn out for them and then happen to switch association elsewhere at a future date. Maybe you should be thankful these players offered their services at all. I'm not so sure what else you can say they owe the IFA beyond that? At what point would you consider the IFA's investment in a player as being "repaid" so as to free him from the shackles of servitude? :rolleyes:

In fact, don't the IFA actually benefit from "defections" from elsewhere?

[Charlie Darwin]

We are being taken for mugs. Guys like Kearns think they can hitch onto our youth system and then sod off elsewhere. People like that need a good boot up the hole and need to waken up. We aren't interested in you if you aren't interested in us, so if you want to play for the ROI they should sod off to play for the ROI and never put on a NI shirt.
Wait... so you want the IFA to fight this, but you also want him to sod off and play for the FAI? Those are quite difficult standards to live up to.

[DannyInvincible]

Players should play for the country they are born in.

And that's that? Says you and a couple of others who aren't taken at all seriously in world football. That statement is so at odds with FIFA's current statutes, it's difficult to entertain.

[geysir]

I'd assume all these lads want to play for their country, why else would they bother.

[The Fly]

I'd love to know the details of their bid to stop Kearns from playing. I wonder why no one knew about it? What's more, can you imagine if they had succeeded? I doubt Kearns would have been too happy. Do you think he'd have represented NI again?

I believe that this issue is now all over bar the shouting.

When Shane Duffy elected to 'defect' to our set-up, he was followed by a group of 4 or 5 young players, one of which was Daniel Kearns - as we all know. One of the main, technical, arguments put forward by some of the more eminent posters on OWC was that players from Northern Ireland could represent ROI only if they satisfied the familial link requirement, and that the citizenship argument was a red herring. Darron Gibson, in their eyes, was able to represent ROI, despite having no familial link, because he qualified under the "old rules." Therefore, there had yet to be a 'new' test case.

Of these 4 or 5 players, I found it hard to believe that all had a familial link to ROI. If, as seems to be the case, Daniel Kearns has not and the IFA were unsuccessful in their attempts to prevent him from representing ROI, then were all just waiting for that dear old fat lady to start singing.........err.........again.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Wouldn't bother me, it's the principal of it. He could never play another International game again for all I care.

It REALLY gets on my tits when players defect. Kearns has played for us at youth level, if he was never interested in playing for us proper the IFA should have dumped him out on his hole years ago so that he didn't waste our time and effort.

FFS, he lad has played AGAINST the Republic and scored for us AGAINST the republic. What a waste of space, effort and money he was.

I fully support the IFA fighting this. Yes, players have a right to play for the republic, but the republic is ripping the ass out of it, waiting until WE develop players and then sticking their arm in. If you want players, take them before they play for us. I have no problem with players shifting sides if they at least have the decency to do it before playing for NI at youth level.

Whilst I have minimal sympathy for your players being allegedly tapped up, perhaps you should be grateful as an archaic colonial outpost and part of a much larger political state (which by historical quirk has 4 teams FFS), you even have your 'own' team....and just accept the very fact it exists, for now.
And accept 45% of your population are unlikely to ever accept playing for a society, that deep down despises them!

[Predator]

Wouldn't bother me, it's the principal of it.
What is the 'principle of it' exactly?


It REALLY gets on my tits when players defect. Kearns has played for us at youth level, if he was never interested in playing for us proper the IFA should have dumped him out on his hole years ago so that he didn't waste our time and effort.How do you propose that the IFA start to implement this initiative of dumping out players who don't want to play for them?



I fully support the IFA fighting thisLet us know what the Titanic looks like now, will you?


waiting until WE develop players and then sticking their arm in. If you want players, take them before they play for us. I have no problem with players shifting sides if they at least have the decency to do it before playing for NI at youth level.
Nonsense. The players are free to change when they want within the current rules and it's not as if the FAI is harvesting players - the players make their own choice when it is presented. As Danny says, this isn't exclusive to NI, so stop acting as if it is.


I believe that this issue is now all over bar the shouting.Pretty much how it seems. It was a storm in a tea-cup.


When Shane Duffy elected to 'defect' to our set-up, he was followed by a group of 4 or 5 young players, one of which was Daniel Kearns - as we all know.Sorry that isn't quite true. The media have distorted this. The '4 or 5 young players' had all declared long before Shane Duffy, despite being in the same age group - Duffy's decision to switch was intentionally and somewhat cynically publicised by Worthington and the IFA. The McEleney brothers, Darren McCauley, Kearns (not sure about Devine) and McBride had all made the switch before Duffy. Shane Duffy's switch didn't 'open the floodgates' as they say.

[DannyInvincible]

I sense things drawing to a close as far as the IFA's case and the surrounding circus is concerned, but just looking back on how this beast grew its wings out of the whole Shane Duffy saga, it leaves a bit of a sour taste. If you take on board the way in which the IFA and its loyal legions behaved with respect to Duffy, you'll see how they attempted to tarnish his reputation and exploit his move to the FAI in order to bolster their own agenda by associating his loss of talent to the FAI and the publicity generated thereafter with a very politicised conflict of interpretation over a set of FIFA statutes to which he wasn't even relevant.

The outraged cries of "keep politics out of football" were especially rich, if not utterly redundant. The IFA gleefully moved on the back of the publicity storm they themselves sowed which had Duffy variously cast as a traitor, a turn-coat, a sell-out, manipulative, conniving, a defector, a liar when he claimed it was his life-long dream to play for Ireland, a mercenary in his "defection", a poached idiot who fell for the sweet-talk and winking eyes of notorious child-snatcher Liam Brady, all sorts of absolutely shameful skullduggery... A 17-year-old lad who found himself being fast-tracked through the IFA's ranks; as synonymous with the FAI's alleged "poaching" as any other self-interested activity of a football association, I sh*t you not. Are we supposed to delude ourselves into believing that all this was done solely in Duffy's interest and was somehow orchestrated solely by himself? The IFA are in the same game as the FAI here. Let's not kid ourselves that they are some sort of innocent victim in all of this. Duffy had to call a stop to his passage before things snowballed any further through a system in which he found himself by geographical circumstance. They had to use a misplaced Duffy as a scapegoat, of course, to ensure the dispute hit the headlines and gathered wind, in spite of the fact that he qualified to play for Ireland by virtue of an eligibility route with which they could have and seemingly had no gripe whatsoever. Who'd give a toss about a West Ham reserves reject, after all? Shameful stuff all round and all very well executed, except for the fact that it hasn't really come to much in the end, bar completely showing certain stubborn curmudgeons up for what they really are. So hold back your impressed rounds of applause just yet!...

The most depressing thing I took from the whole sorry affair is what appears to be the incredible level of underlying bitterness still harboured by so many. What a complete charade the "sophisticated", "tolerant" and "polite" sectarianism of trying to claim that the FAI ("Footballing Apartheid in Ireland"? How embarrassingly ignorant, arrogant and sanctimonious...) were the ones falling foul of the spirit of the GFA (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=393311351424&ref=nf#!/group.php?gid=393311351424&ref=nf) was; that denying Irish citizens the right to represent their country would somehow be within the spirit of the agreement. What a sly and despicable insult to the identity and aspirations of the whole nationalist community in the north.

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't think northern players defecting to the south can go on forever. Politically, it's untenable. Hopefully, NI will decide that its best interests lie in an all-island team (I am not a republican, by the way), but I can see why that would be unattractive to the Northern Irish people.

[ifk101]

I sense things drawing to a close as far as the IFA's case and the surrounding circus is concerned, but just looking back on how this beast grew its wings out of the whole Shane Duffy saga, it leaves a bit of a sour taste. If you take on board the way in which the IFA and its loyal legions behaved with respect to Duffy, you'll see how they attempted to tarnish his reputation and exploit his move to the FAI in order to bolster their own agenda by associating his loss of talent to the FAI and the publicity generated thereafter with a very politicised conflict of interpretation over a set of FIFA statutes to which he wasn't even relevant.

Agree. It really was quite distasteful behaviour by the IFA wrapped in hypocrisy. They blatantly set out to make an example of Duffy and use him to shine a little media attention on their whinging grievances about integrity and youth development gone to waste when behind the scenes they are tapping-up ("unhappy":rolleyes:) players from England's youth system. How in earth these two-faced, incompetent fools believe they can build a successful appeal with CAS is beyond me.

[awec]

Wait... so you want the IFA to fight this, but you also want him to sod off and play for the FAI? Those are quite difficult standards to live up to.

As I've said countless times on this thread, my issue is with those that are happy to play for us at youth level and then magically and mysteriously have issue playing for us at senior level.

You either want to play for NI or you don't. If you don't, you shouldn't get a anywhere near our youth structure. If you do, we're glad to have you.

I understand the rather unique political situation in Ireland where people born in NI are well within their rights to play for the ROI. I have no problem with someone from NI playing for the ROI right through youth level and into senior level.

My issue is with those that are happy to hitch a ride on the IFA youth system and then switch. That is taking us for fools and playing a dirty game and those are the sort of people that I, and the majority of NI fans have a problem with. I won't dispute that there are some NI fans who think it shouldn't happen at all but most of these people live in dreamworld.

It's not bigotry or sectarianism, it's nothing to do with that. It's basic principals. Why should we develop players at youth level only for them to go play for another country. This is international football, not club football, there is supposed to be a degree of loyalty which seems lost on some individuals.

[awec]

I'd love to play for the country I was born in...again and again and again. I'd be to own goals what Pele was to putting them in the other team's net. :rofl: Oh dear, what a D*ckhead! :rolleyes:

What have I said that's incorrect?

I'm not saying everyone born in NI should play for NI. For nationalists born in NI the country they were born in in their mind is Ireland, and so they should play for Ireland (if they want, they are more than welcome to become full NI internationals), and with that I have no issue.

What I do have issue with is "I view myself as being Irish but I'll play for Northern Ireland for a while to see how it works out and then when the ROI come asking I'll just jump ship. Win win for me and the ROI, and screw you Northern Ireland."

If you can't see the problem with that then there's no hope for us.

[dantheman]

What have I said that's incorrect?

I'm not saying everyone born in NI should play for NI. For nationalists born in NI the country they were born in in their mind is Ireland, and so they should play for Ireland (if they want, they are more than welcome to become full NI internationals), and with that I have no issue.

What I do have issue with is "I view myself as being Irish but I'll play for Northern Ireland for a while to see how it works out and then when the ROI come asking I'll just jump ship. Win win for me and the ROI, and screw you Northern Ireland."

If you can't see the problem with that then there's no hope for us.

I agree with your point, but how do you feel about taking this through to its logical conclusion, FAI training camps in NI?

[awec]

I agree with your point, but how do you feel about taking this through to its logical conclusion, FAI training camps in NI?

It won't make a difference though it'll be politically volatile. Anyone who really wants to play for the ROI will find a way to attend training camps nomatter where they are, though many would view ROI training camps in NI as the FAI really sticking the arm into it.

[osarusan]

My issue is with those that are happy to hitch a ride on the IFA youth system and then switch. That is taking us for fools and playing a dirty game and those are the sort of people that I, and the majority of NI fans have a problem with. I won't dispute that there are some NI fans who think it shouldn't happen at all but most of these people live in dreamworld.
If you check my previous posts on this thread you'll see i have a fair amount of sympathy for Northern Ireland over this issue.

I do think though that the post I've quoted doesn't take into account the possibility that for some (many?) of these players, they only really develop a feeling about this issue of allegiance in their teens, maybe even mid to late teens.

It's not fair to suggest that every player starts out with the idea of going through the IFA youth system while knowing all the time that they'll decide they want to represent the FAI at senior level. It suggests a level of connivance I wouldn't expect to find in players ...say.... 14 years of age.

I've no doubt there are some who do continue to milk the IFA system even after having made their mind up regarding allegiance to the FAI, but I'd imagine that for many, there is a (perhaps quite painful) process of awakening (political, social) which starts after they've played in NI youth teams.

[Gather round]

I don't think northern players defecting to the south can go on forever. Politically, it's untenable. Hopefully, NI will decide that its best interests lie in an all-island team (I am not a republican, by the way), but I can see why that would be unattractive to the Northern Irish people.

Why is it untenable? The border will presumably remain for the foreseeable future, ditto the large nationalist minority on our side of it. But why would the unionist majority just give up the Northern Ireland team (stop being unionists, effectively)? I see some NI fans, particularly on OWC are saying this, but it's a hysterical over-reaction.

Are you a monarchist then?

[awec]

The only time I could support an all Ireland football team is when there is (and I beleive it'll happen eventually) a United Ireland.

It's weird, because I can watch the Ireland rugby team no problem (and do watch them), but I'd find watching an all ireland football team strange and I don't know if I'd be able to relate to it as "my" team.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Why is it untenable? The border will presumably remain for the foreseeable future, ditto the large nationalist minority on our side of it. But why would the unionist majority just give up the Northern Ireland team (stop being unionists, effectively)? I see some NI fans, particularly on OWC are saying this, but it's a hysterical over-reaction.
Sounds like someone reckons supporting NI is an expession of ones unionism. ;-)


The only time I could support an all Ireland football team is when there is (and I beleive it'll happen eventually) a United Ireland. I don't even see it happening in the event of a UI awec. I don't reckon a UI likely any day soon but in any event there's no strict reason why the NI team (or ROI if unity came about because we rejoined the UK) couldn't keep going thereafter.

[DannyInvincible]

The only time I could support an all Ireland football team is when there is (and I beleive it'll happen eventually) a United Ireland.

It's weird, because I can watch the Ireland rugby team no problem (and do watch them), but I'd find watching an all ireland football team strange and I don't know if I'd be able to relate to it as "my" team.

Out of interest, why exactly would you be unable to relate to an all-Ireland football team, in contrast with how you relate to the current all-Ireland rugby team? It is because it would be something you wouldn't be totally used to and wouldn't be sure what form it might take on, or is there something more to it?


there's no strict reason why the NI team (or ROI if unity came about because we rejoined the UK) couldn't keep going thereafter.

I see we're in the business of massaging unionist paranoia now. :P

[awec]

Out of interest, why exactly would you be unable to relate to an all-Ireland football team, in contrast with how you relate to the current all-Ireland rugby team? It is because it would be something you wouldn't be totally used to and wouldn't be sure what form it might take on, or is there something more to it?



I see we're in the business of massaging unionist paranoia now. :P

I think it's because I've never experienced a Northern Ireland rugby team and therefore never "lost" any sense of national pride.

As a block booker at the NI games, to suddenly lose that team and start supporting another one would be like changing my club team, it would just feel wrong.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The only time I could support an all Ireland football team is when there is (and I beleive it'll happen eventually) a United Ireland.

It's weird, because I can watch the Ireland rugby team no problem (and do watch them), but I'd find watching an all ireland football team strange and I don't know if I'd be able to relate to it as "my" team.

Hmm. You're half-way there ;)
What if the Ireland team in the future was made up of eleven players from the North.....it could happen!!


Sounds like someone reckons supporting NI is an expession of ones unionism. ;-)

(or ROI if unity came about because we rejoined the UK)

Well, yes. Not to mention numerous other nasty attributes.....

And are you for real???

[Crosby87]

to suddenly lose that team and start supporting another one would be like changing my club team, it would just feel wrong.

You could likely get used to it after awhile like anything else, especially if the situation was better than it is now.

I mean what if it was ultimitely in the best interests of everyone concerned? If for arguments sake i told you NI will not make a Euro or WC for the next 30 years would you reconsider? Or would you rather a team never make it but at least they would still be "your team?" This is what I am curious about.

[awec]

You could likely get used to it after awhile like anything else, especially if the situation was better than it is now.

I mean what if it was ultimitely in the best interests of everyone concerned? If for arguments sake i told you NI will not make a Euro or WC for the next 30 years would you reconsider? Or would you rather a team never make it but at least they would still be "your team?" This is what I am curious about.

I honestly don't know, I haven't thought about it a lot.

[Crosby87]

I honestly don't know, I haven't thought about it a lot.

Well start thinking about it so we can get a decent united team going and therefore be able to travel to tournaments more than once a decade. :pray:

Also what is :watermelon: for? :penquin: