Player eligibility row

[redobit]

Im sure there are a lot of Nationlist northern players that wouldn't mind playing for the North. However, the treatment that Lennon got a few years back must play a part in the team they choose. Of course a player would prefer to play for a team where they will be appreciated and respected.
The IFA should look at their own fans behaviour as a possible reason for players changing their minds, instead of taking the easier option and pointing to the FAI.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I dislike this thread title for it's assumptions, presumptions, presuppositions etc.
It leaves me wondering, and not for the first time, if it's author actually thinks in 2" high white futura bold block capitals on a black background and whether his inner voice speaks like Max Clifford or maybe more like that clot in the Harvey Norman superstore ads.

[Charlie Darwin]

I dislike this thread title for it's assumptions, presumptions, presuppositions etc.
It leaves me wondering, and not for the first time, if it's author actually thinks in 2" high white futura bold block capitals on a black background and whether his inner voice speaks like Max Clifford or maybe more like that clot in the Harvey Norman superstore ads.
What on earth are you talking about?

[greendeiseboy]

I dislike this thread title for it's assumptions, presumptions, presuppositions etc.
It leaves me wondering, and not for the first time, if it's author actually thinks in 2" high white futura bold block capitals on a black background and whether his inner voice speaks like Max Clifford or maybe more like that clot in the Harvey Norman superstore ads.


Jaysus Lionel, have you been dancing on the ceiling again - the blood has rushed to your head

[Wolfie]

Er, they've already had the chance to play for two teams at pretty much the same standard. Look at the results and seedings.

Weren't one of these teams recently snubbed by mighty Belgium?

[OwlsFan]

Article 2 of the Irish Constitution
It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.

Enough said ;)

[Gather round]

.....

[Gather round]

Im sure there are a lot of Nationlist northern players that wouldn't mind playing for the North. However, the treatment that Lennon got a few years back must play a part in the team they choose

A tiny minority gave one player disgraceful abuse. Not condoning, but I don't think it's the main factor.


Of course a player would prefer to play for a team where they will be appreciated and respected

The huge majority of Northern Ireland fans appreciate and respect all our players.


The IFA should look at their own fans behaviour as a possible reason for players changing their minds

They have.


Weren't one of these teams recently snubbed by mighty Belgium?

I think you fail to understand how rankings and seedeings are determined, Wolfie. They're based largely on aggregate results in both the 2008 and 2010 qualifiers. In which an admittedly modest NI side managed 35 points- exactly the same as your boys.

Belgium's loss- by inviting stronger opposition, they just ended up with another home beating (to Croatia).


Article 2 of the Irish Constitution
It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.

Enough said

Not quite enough. That article was amended in 2004, to the effect that not every person born in Ireland now has the automatic right to citizenship. A change supported by nearly 80% in a referendum in the South.

[DannyInvincible]

Not quite enough. That article was amended in 2004, to the effect that not every person born in Ireland now has the automatic right to citizenship. A change supported by nearly 80% in a referendum in the South.

If this is supposed to insinuate something, it's been pointed out already (was it on this one or the Shane Duffy thread?) that that amendment isn't really all that relevant as far as this discussion is concerned.

[geysir]

It means that the Nordies voted by an overwhelming majority to allow all people in NI the birthright to be identified as Irish citizens.
Then some of those ungrateful hicks call it an act of irredentism by the Republic.

[ArdeeBhoy]

A tiny minority gave one player disgraceful abuse. Not condoning, but I don't think it's the main factor.
The huge majority of Northern Ireland fans appreciate and respect all our players.

Small beer at the time maybe, but a death threat's still a death threat?
And maybe you need to read about their reaction to those who're eligible to play for the real Irish team, even if we are due to be fairly mediocre.
So more Hypocrisy & pomposity all round?

[Charlie Darwin]

A tiny minority gave one player disgraceful abuse. Not condoning, but I don't think it's the main factor.
Well most people would agree that it was a tiny minority, but the fact is that a player was forced to quit because he thought his family was in danger. Minority or not, it's a major factor in anyone's decision, particularly as the likes of Wilson and Gibson would have been coming of age right when Lennon was retiring.

[Murfinator]

Northern Ireland is filled with a lot of vile supporters and must be a very uncomfortable atmosphere for some players. Even in this day and age its a nation fueled by bigotry and regularly fills a stadium where its supporters would still rather make outlandish political statements than just enjoy their team playing.

I wouldn't support a team like that growing up and neither did the lads who joined us, and they were 100% right to.

Worthingtons approach on this is a bit petty, no regard for what the player wants he just wants FIFA to force them to be shackled to NI because of where they were born and trained. If you aren't proud and don't want to play for your country its beyond me why anyone would want you to do so by force, I don't know anyone who'd want Stephen Ireland to be forced to play for us, most people would like him to want to play for us thats entirely different.

[geysir]

Au contraire, there is some evidence that Worthington has a few moments of clarity.
“I find it difficult to understand, but if a player doesn't want to play for Northern Ireland, then good luck to him. I wish them no harm,”
“If they don't want to play for us, then that's it. I will look forward and concentrate on the youngsters coming through.”

[stiffler]

We should be asking how come we havnt tried attracting northern born irish players before the turn of this century?

there would have been manys a player who would have jumped at the chance to represent ireland

[kingdomkerry]

I think this article sums the whole thing up

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/brian-mcnally/Why-the-talent-drain-to-the-Republic-shows-Northern-Ireland-are-still-paying-the-price-for-abuse-dished-out-to-Neil-Lennon-The-Brian-McNally-Column-article344981.html

[Nagger]

I think this article sums the whole thing up

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/brian-mcnally/Why-the-talent-drain-to-the-Republic-shows-Northern-Ireland-are-still-paying-the-price-for-abuse-dished-out-to-Neil-Lennon-The-Brian-McNally-Column-article344981.html


Good article. Thanks for that

[osarusan]

I think this article sums the whole thing up

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/brian-mcnally/Why-the-talent-drain-to-the-Republic-shows-Northern-Ireland-are-still-paying-the-price-for-abuse-dished-out-to-Neil-Lennon-The-Brian-McNally-Column-article344981.html


From the article -

Forget the spurious claims about players being poached or lured south of the border by incentives - the lingering fear of sectarian abuse is the biggest single factor in turning young Catholics away from playing for the Northern Ireland senior side.

Even the players who've decided to represent ROI haven't given this as a reason. I'd like to see him back up the statement.

[kingdomkerry]

From the article -


Even the players who've decided to represent ROI haven't given this as a reason. I'd like to see him back up the statement.

They're hardly going to say it in public

[gustavo]

They're hardly going to say it in public

Excellent :D


Northern Ireland is filled with a lot of vile supporters and must be a very uncomfortable atmosphere for some players. Even in this day and age its a nation fueled by bigotry and regularly fills a stadium where its supporters would still rather make outlandish political statements than just enjoy their team playing.

t.
So it's ok to say that they have a lot of vile supporters but then turn around and say that they're also bigoted , Presumably because they have political opinion which are different but not less strong than yours


Aye, but you know it's true. Even If they never said it, they'd be thinking so.

You only know it's true because you want it to be true

[ArdeeBhoy]

Even the players who've decided to represent ROI haven't given this as a reason. I'd like to see him back up the statement.

Aye, but you know it's true. Even If they never said it, they'd be thinking so.

[redobit]

I think this article sums the whole thing up

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/brian-mcnally/Why-the-talent-drain-to-the-Republic-shows-Northern-Ireland-are-still-paying-the-price-for-abuse-dished-out-to-Neil-Lennon-The-Brian-McNally-Column-article344981.html

He must have seen my post and elaborated on it (post # 301). Might become a journalist.

[Mr_Parker]

I think this article sums the whole thing up

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/brian-mcnally/Why-the-talent-drain-to-the-Republic-shows-Northern-Ireland-are-still-paying-the-price-for-abuse-dished-out-to-Neil-Lennon-The-Brian-McNally-Column-article344981.html

Yet another article that misses the point in terms of understanding the FIFA Articles.

[tetsujin1979]

you know, it's equally possible that you, Mr Parker, have misinterpreted the FIFA articles, and these multiple journalists are correct in their interpretation?

[Mr_Parker]

you know, it's equally possible that you, Mr Parker, have misinterpreted the FIFA articles, and these multiple journalists are correct in their interpretation?

Nope. My take is the same as FIFA's, and afterall it is theirs that counts. http://www.irishleaguesupporters.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

[geysir]

"Equally possible" only in your mind Tets because most likely you have a difficulty to determine a certainty about the Fifa articles in relation to the citizenship laws.

Because the citizenship laws exist, then the footballers qualify to be eligible.
But the citizenship laws by themselves do not give a person a civil right to play for a country.
What gives a footballer the right, is the text of the Fifa statute.

The FIFA statute 15 could easily have been formulated to read that a footballer must be born inside the boundaries of a federation's territory in order to be automatically eligible.
What then? That would be a normal enough eligibility rule.
FIFA statute 17, (the Granny rule) only refers to being a descendant from parent or grandparent who was born inside the territory of the federation.

Certainly one situation influences another. Because that automatic citizenship exists for footballers born outside a federation, so FIFA accommodated that in the rule 15.
If the GFA had not that constitutional article over citizenship then I doubt that FIFA would have written article 15 in the way they did.
The constitutional context for that FIFA text is just about restricted to Ireland.

[Maroon 7]

Maybe I'm missing something when I peruse OWC but I'm actually amazed that one of the mods on that site and someone who is virulenty and bitterly opposed to NI players switching to the south is actually born and bred in the south (or as south as Donegal can be given it's location). Is this not utter hypocrisy to reject where you are from to support a "foreign" state so to speak yet still blow a gasket about kids who want to do the very same in reverse?

Personally I am all for civil liberty and the right of the individual to choose within reason. If someone has ties to NI and wants to support or play for them then all power to them but you can hardly complain when it goes the other way. I thought the whole problem of the "north" was some people trying to tell other people what they should be rather than accepting and respecting the diferences between them.

Maybe there should be some cut off age before kids have to decide who they want to play for but they shouldn't be hounded for the choice they make. Most of these lads are 15, 16 or 17 and hardly know their arse from their elbow at that age. It's a bit much to expect them to make a final decision when they are still learning to tie their own boots but maybe for clarity's sake we need them to decide their future earlier.

[tetsujin1979]

slightly off topic, is there any official connection between the IFA and OWC?
As in, do the IFA recognise it as an official supporter's group?

[Mr_Parker]

slightly off topic, is there any official connection between the IFA and OWC?
As in, do the IFA recognise it as an official supporter's group?

I'm not sure if there is an official connection with the forum as such, but they do at least legitimise it by using it as a vehicle themselves eg the IFA Announcements & Marketing section.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Some of the IFA staf are registered on that site, but some fans are so paranoid on there, they're probably p*ssing in the wind.

[Predator]

Article in the Independent today from John O'Brien who suggests that Kerr's criticism of selecting NI born players wasn't strong enough. Rambles on about 'honour' at the end of the article.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/granny-rules-okay-for-the-predatory-boys-in-green-2091424.html

Another article relating to Givens' poor record with the U21s concludes by saying we're 'stealing' players: http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/givens-does-not-justify-the-means-2091397.html

[Gather round]

.....

[Gather round]

slightly off topic, is there any official connection between the IFA and OWC?
As in, do the IFA recognise it as an official supporter's group?

The IFA recognises supporters clubs both individually and as part of the wider amalgamation. IFA elected officials and staff post there because it's the most representative forum for NI fans. Many of whom are in the official supporters clubs.

So only indirect connection then.


I'm not sure if there is an official connection with the forum as such, but they do at least legitimise it by using it as a vehicle themselves eg the IFA Announcements & Marketing section

Aye, it's legitimate targetted niche marketing.

OWC sources tell me Mr Bhoy of Ardee is about to cease posting there. He's thrown the moderators off the scent by pretending to be from Andersonstown, it seems.

[Mr_Parker]

The IFA recognises supporters clubs both individually and as part of the wider amalgamation. IFA elected officials and staff post there because it's the most representative forum for NI fans. Many of whom are in the official supporters clubs.

So only indirect connection then.



Aye, it's legitimate targetted niche marketing.


Aye as legitimate as the time the IFA maketing department were promoting sex toys. :D

[DannyInvincible]

Maybe I'm missing something when I peruse OWC but I'm actually amazed that one of the mods on that site and someone who is virulenty and bitterly opposed to NI players switching to the south is actually born and bred in the south (or as south as Donegal can be given it's location). Is this not utter hypocrisy to reject where you are from to support a "foreign" state so to speak yet still blow a gasket about kids who want to do the very same in reverse?

I would hazard a guess that that chap is of Ulster Scots extraction and probably feels more at home with his "brethren" supporting their little part of the world. Which is fair enough, I suppose, unless he's bleating on about the same in reverse; northern-born nationalists supporting or playing for Ireland. Of course, I don't know if he is; I don't really have the required cognitive capacity to follow the particular coming together of "minds" that is exhibited on there, after all, but didn't FIFA agree on a compromise that would allow people of his ilk to declare for Northern Ireland if they so wished? Actually, you say he is against northern-borns switching, so I guess that makes him a hypocrite. Indeed. Maybe he has family from the north. Who knows? Who cares?

[DannyInvincible]

Article in the Independent today from John O'Brien who suggests that Kerr's criticism of selecting NI born players wasn't strong enough. Rambles on about 'honour' at the end of the article.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/granny-rules-okay-for-the-predatory-boys-in-green-2091424.html

I think he's primarily concerned with the FAI viewing it as a long-term solution or "easy way out" in the place of nurturing talent themselves, which is fair enough. Accusations of moral bankruptcy don't really stand, however. What is honour anyway? It's not as if these players are being coerced into playing for us. They wouldn't play for us if they didn't want to. And they do possess Irish ancestry, after all, which we're all constitutionally-bound to cherish, right? He pussyfoots around and is fairly ambiguous on the morality of the policy when it comes to the African teams and even mentions that he can "understand" it, but then seems fairly happy to be critical and accusatory when it comes to us. Why the apparent contradiction?

[briancool21]

At the end of the day why shouldn't we use the rule to our advantage every other country does it? i mean look at france..zidane should have really played for algeiria, henry,vieira were from surinam or something then theres the obvious ones deco, eduardo(very croatian sounding name) senna for spain i could go on in fairness, now that i think any decent brazillians left in gort?

[DannyInvincible]

At the end of the day why shouldn't we use the rule to our advantage every other country does it? i mean look at france..zidane should have really played for algeiria, henry,vieira were from surinam or something

Hehe, maybe you should have a scan through your research on those. They're all French-born, bar Vieira, who was from Senegal. I think you have Edgar Davids in mind. Anyhow, your point that other associations see no problem in playing fully by the rules still stands.

How did Vieira actually qualify to play for France, by the way? Residency or something? Or was French citizenship open to those in former colonies or what?

[ArdeeBhoy]

OWC sources tell me Mr Bhoy of Ardee is about to cease posting there. He's thrown the moderators off the scent by pretending to be from Andersonstown, it seems.

WTF are you on about? My sources in Beal-feirste are mainly from the Short Strand and The Falls. Just pity their wider occupation by patronising fools....

[ArdeeBhoy]

I would hazard a guess that that chap is of Ulster Scots extraction and probably feels more at home with his "brethren" supporting their little part of the world. Which is fair enough, I suppose, unless he's bleating on about the same in reverse; northern-born nationalists supporting or playing for Ireland.
Of course, I don't know if he is; I don't really have the required cognitive capacity to follow the particular coming together of "minds" that is exhibited on there, after all, but didn't FIFA agree on a compromise that would allow people of his ilk to declare for Northern Ireland if they so wished? Actually, you say he is against northern-borns switching, so I guess that makes him a hypocrite. Indeed. Maybe he has family from the north. Who knows? Who cares?

Agree with the Hypocrisy angle. Not to mention Paranoia, with anything that upsets the 'status quo' or is perceived to be different from them.
No wonder Nats struggle to 'represent' these people.....

[Drumcondra 69er]

Article in the Independent today from John O'Brien who suggests that Kerr's criticism of selecting NI born players wasn't strong enough. Rambles on about 'honour' at the end of the article.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/granny-rules-okay-for-the-predatory-boys-in-green-2091424.html

Another article relating to Givens' poor record with the U21s concludes by saying we're 'stealing' players: http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/givens-does-not-justify-the-means-2091397.html

A remarkably ill-informed piece of writing. I assume that he's talking about Cascarino when he mentions an 'illegal player' when, despite there being no bloodline with CAS due to his mother's adoption, he was still legally qualified as her citizenship rights were the same as an adopted child of an Irishman as if she'd been naturally born to that family. James Lawton actually mentioned that in his article on the subject on Friday here. http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/traps-army-needs-its-foreign-legion-2089573.html

O'Brien then goes on to trot out the old chesnut about Giggs sticking with Wales instead of declaring for England which is an urban myth oft repeated by bar stool pundits with no idea about the game. Although Giggs went to school in England and therefore qualified for and represented England schoolboys he was born in Wales to Welsh parents and didn't ever qualfiy for England beyond schoolboy level once qualification moved beyond what school a player went to.

Shockingly bad journalism and editing but I'd expect no more from that rag.

[elroy]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/what-a-total-waste-of-time-2091394.html

Yet another reason why not to buy that rag

[osarusan]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/what-a-total-waste-of-time-2091394.html

Yet another reason why not to buy that rag

Apart from the moronic last line, I'd agree with some of what was said.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Another reason to snub the IFA?
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/video-nasty-14710603.html#ixzz0hXSzvxm6


The word 'bitter' (and *****) springs to mind.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd be stunned if that even figured in the IFA's reasoning - like a lot of people, they just seem to be under the insane opinion that video technology is bad (which is they've never signed a multi-million pound deal with Sky).

I've noticed a lot of the Telegraph's non-editorial coverage of the story has been ludicrously partisan - obviously their opinion pages can be as biased they like, but they can't even hack out a basic objective news report.

[Lionel Ritchie]

BelTel article is spurious pub chat garbage.

Read John O'Briens Indo article ...or much of it at any rate. Going right back to Hot Press giving him his first gig ruining a very fine column popularised by Declan Lynch I've never understood how this ManU barstooler ever secured gainful employment from spouting unironic, wind-up, troll fodder that'd get him sanctioned on even half arsed message boards.

...was also very disappointed with Eamonn Sweeneys article about the reasoning behind playing Brazil in London rather than Dublin. Rubbished the match and our performance but his particular bugbear was football denying the GAA a few more bucks. This when he doesn't contend that the GAA were able to tender to have it in Croker and had the most expensive of all four quotes.

I'll indulge a bit of speculation of my own that if it had been 12 other venues pitching then Croker would've finished 13th. They've done very well out of having the last two campaigns played there.

[osarusan]

Another reason to snub the IFA?
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/video-nasty-14710603.html#ixzz0hXSzvxm6


The word 'bitter' (and *****) springs to mind.

In fairness, that is one of the worst-written articles I've ever seen. No direct quotes from anybody, and it's not even a logical suggestion that the IFA would do it to spite the FAI.

[fhtb]

Agree with the Hypocrisy angle. Not to mention Paranoia, with anything that upsets the 'status quo' or is perceived to be different from them.
No wonder Nats struggle to 'represent' these people.....

First off nats continue to represent our team with no difficulty. Secondly no player who has been tapped by the Dark Side has said politics was a reason for doing so. As someone here pointed out you only say it's true because you want it to be.

Now about this 'hypocrisy'.

No one is saying you cannot support whoever you like. There are no rules (why should there be?) - it's a free world do what you want.

Playing and supporting are completely separate issues. In the same way the 3 fundamental eligibility criteria and the concept of citizenship are. Citizenship is not a license to do what you want. Irish citizens resident in NI cannot vote in the Republic. Does this mean the Dublin government is also guilty of the discrimination the IFA has been accused of supporting? No, the fact is citizenship is quite a loose term (made looser still in this case by the ignorance of national borders).

And the ranting about citizenship is a moot point anyway as FIFA is not a political organisation. It did not sign up to the GFA. FIFA can make up whatever rules it likes. Having said that the current consensus is that the rules as they stand require change to prevent the cannibalisation of member associations and to protect vulnerable association's authority over their own jurisdiction.

You say my opinion is vitriolic. Of course it is, you'd be hard pressed to find an NI fan who isn't incensed by the FAI's arrogant behaviour. Particularly in the wake of Football For All. Particularly after the FAI themselves complained about the exact same behaviour from the IFA 60 years previous.

From my own personal view, I was educated in NI. I live here. I'm comfortable in the mixed society and recognise football as one of the few things here people have the opportunity to unite around. Small steps and all that. To see that dynamic being single-handedly destroyed by an outside organisation makes me sick to the pit of my stomach.

Hope that provides some insight from this particular Irish citizen.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think you're being a bit dramatic. It's not the FAI's job to make Northerners feel warm and fuzzy inside.

These are all players who are open to the idea of playing for the Republic and qualified to do so under the rules as they are currently interpreted. To say the FAI is "single-handedly" destroying the unity of Northern football is nonsense - do the players not have any personal responsibility at all? If they wanted to play for Northern Ireland, they would, but they've made a decision to opt for a team they identify more with.

[fhtb]

With all due respect if I was approached by Pele tomorrow I'd find a surprisingly strong personal identification with Brazil.

Professional footballers do what is necessary for their careers, including opting for the perceived best option with regard to international football. The "I've always felt [x nationality] and proud of it" media circus thereafter is mere PR window dressing for the fans. It's also predictable guff that happens to fill copy for the media. Win win. Duffy was on record as saying he was proud to represent NI too. If a reporter asks you a question, you're not going to say "yeah to be honest I'm not really arsed one way or the other" are you?

On it's not the FAI's job to make us feel warm and fuzzy - presumably they didn't feel so circumspect in the 50s?