Player eligibility row

[osarusan]

There it is in black and white. People born in the North are allowed to choose whether they are Irish, or British or both. Ergo they are not automatically British. They were automatically British in the eyes of the UK before the GFA, but not any more. This is exactly why the GFA is relevant to this issue.

By that logic babies born in NI would have no citizenship at all, as they haven't chosen yet.


They are British and Irish from the moment of birth as a result of the GFA, are they not (as opposed to being British from birth but also entitled to get Irish citizenship if they choose)? In order to "not be" British any more, they'd actually have to go and have their citizenship rescinded, I think.

[yapster]

I think this thread has ran its course by now.

Its getting nonsensical at this stage.


spot on sniffer,

[Nedser]

They are British and Irish from the moment of birth as a result of the GFA, are they not?

Seriously, I give up. I reproduce an exact quote from the GFA stating that people born in NI have the right to choose whether they are Irish, or British, or both and you still argue that it says something completely different. What the GFA says is not open to debate. It does not say or even imply that people born in NI are "British and Irish from the moment of birth". As for babies - I assume their parents can choose on their behalf - that's the way it works with everything else.

You might think logic dictates that they should be both British and Irish from birth, but that's not what the GFA says. And let's be honest - the reason it doesn't say that is the hardline Republicans would never have accepted an agreement that stated they are automatically British, and the hardline Loyalists would never have accepted an agreement that stated they are automatically Irish. It wasn't an accident that it says they can choose either - this was one of the fundamental sticking points!

Anyway, I agree with others that this has just got stupid.

[bwagner]

They have named they under 17 squad ..it unlcudes Ryan Brobbel who we are also in the hunt for. He is English born and on the books for Middlesboro

[boovidge]

This guy's a strange one.

Called up for us in January (http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=100655:ireland-under-17-squad-named-for-double-header-against-hungary&catid=6:under-17&Itemid=17)

Called up for Northern Ireland a few days later (http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/5462/u17-training-camp/)

[Nedser]

Brian Kerr's views on this issue in today's Irish Times:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/0302/1224265432025.html

His logic seems quite confused and inconsistent - he seems to be saying that it's not fair to recruit NI-born players because NI don't have too many good players to start with. But recruiting Scottish born players is not so bad because they've produced "the likes of Law, Dalglish, Souness, Bremner and Jordan, in better days". :confused:

He also admits to personally "having had early discussions with Darron Gibson about a possible switch to the Republic" yet thinks it's wrong to to pursue "lads who have played for Northern Ireland at underage level". To be fair, at least he acknowledges that he could be accused of hypocrisy!

[Mr_Parker]

I've already done so.

Link? Quote?

[Mr_Parker]

Exact words from the GFA (http://www.dfa.ie/uploads/documents/Anglo-Irish/agreement.pdf):
"The participants endorse the commitment made by the British and Irish Governments that, in a new British-Irish Agreement replacing the Anglo-Irish Agreement, they will ....

(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose"

There it is in black and white. People born in the North are allowed to choose whether they are Irish, or British or both. Ergo they are not automatically British. They were automatically British in the eyes of the UK before the GFA, but not any more. This is exactly why the GFA is relevant to this issue.

"In the eyes of the British" It is "In the eyes of FIFA that what counts in this issue. The GFA has no relevance.

[Mr_Parker]

By that logic babies born in NI would have no citizenship at all, as they haven't chosen yet.


They are British and Irish from the moment of birth as a result of the GFA, are they not (as opposed to being British from birth but also entitled to get Irish citizenship if they choose)? In order to "not be" British any more, they'd actually have to go and have their citizenship rescinded, I think.

You are right to a point, but it is not as a result of the GFA. It is 'or' not 'and though and it was always the case. The GFA merely consolidated what two independent governments already recognised. No one has to rescind anything either.

[Mr_Parker]

spot on sniffer,

If you think it has run its course or it doesn't interest you, why not just ignore it.

[Mr_Parker]

This guy's a strange one.

Called up for us in January (http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=100655:ireland-under-17-squad-named-for-double-header-against-hungary&catid=6:under-17&Itemid=17)

Called up for Northern Ireland a few days later (http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/5462/u17-training-camp/)

He also qualifies for England.

[geysir]

Seriously, I give up. I reproduce an exact quote from the GFA stating that people born in NI have the right to choose whether they are Irish, or British, or both and you still argue that it says something completely different. What the GFA says is not open to debate. It does not say or even imply that people born in NI are "British and Irish from the moment of birth". As for babies - I assume their parents can choose on their behalf - that's the way it works with everything else.

You might think logic dictates that they should be both British and Irish from birth, but that's not what the GFA says.

The GFA is not and never has been any replacement for the Irish and British nationality laws.
It is the lengthy and detailed Irish and British nationality laws which determine the citizenship rights/requirements of people born in NI, not the GFA. The only change that the GFA brought into effect in this regard (citizenship), was the change to the Irish citizenship law which said that now (most) all people born on the Island are automatically Irish citizens from birth.
Do you understand that?


Next task, read this slowly from my previous post as it came to me from Moses.
"Irish nationality only qualifies you for the FAI.
An Irish national born in the North is automatically a British national even if he/she never obtains a UK passport, even if he/she only aspires to be an Irish citizen. NI born are automatic dual citizens. Only the automatic British nationality qualifies a NI born to be eligible to play for NI."

[The Bunk]

They have named they under 17 squad ..it unlcudes Ryan Brobbel who we are also in the hunt for. He is English born and on the books for Middlesboro

Do you have a source for that?

[dr_peepee]

If you think it has run its course or it doesn't interest you, why not just ignore it.

Cos' Geysir has Ealing Green on the ropes!!!

[Mr_Parker]

Do you have a source for that?

Post 255

[Reality Bites]

Brian Kerr's views on this issue in today's Irish Times:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/0302/1224265432025.html

His logic seems quite confused and inconsistent - he seems to be saying that it's not fair to recruit NI-born players because NI don't have too many good players to start with. But recruiting Scottish born players is not so bad because they've produced "the likes of Law, Dalglish, Souness, Bremner and Jordan, in better days". :confused:

He also admits to personally "having had early discussions with Darron Gibson about a possible switch to the Republic" yet thinks it's wrong to to pursue "lads who have played for Northern Ireland at underage level". To be fair, at least he acknowledges that he could be accused of hypocrisy!

Like everything Kerr writes in recent times it has the faint hint of bitterness

[geysir]

Faint ??

[drummerboy]

Surprised by his reasoning, especially considering his own father was a Belfast nationalist who came south and settled in Dublin.

[Mr_Parker]

Well here we have what the IFA will base their case on. Quite amazing stuff!

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/irish-fa-can-still-win-the-eligibility-war-vows-nelson-14703993.html

I can't believe they cannot get their heads around 15 & 16, taken together or seperately.

[Mr_Parker]

Interview with Patrick Nelson, IFA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxwg4mD0sOg

Favourite quote in that video is; "we want Fifa to uphold their own statutes as we read them".

I'm not sure if it was you and/or others that posted a comment on youtube in response to that video but they have all been removed today. Are the IFA afraid of debate? I had read them and I didn't read anything that could be seen as breaking youtube rules.

[stiffler]

sniffer?

[Nedser]

Link? Quote?

Post 206.

[Colbert Report]

Can we close this thread already? Clearly the only players that declare for the Republic are the ones that want to. Let the people make their own choice. We're hardly "recruiting" players from a different country.

[yapster]

Like everything Kerr writes in recent times it has the faint hint of bitterness


Kerr was and is a nobody in world football...

[Nedser]

The GFA is not and never has been any replacement for the Irish and British nationality laws.
It is the lengthy and detailed Irish and British nationality laws which determine the citizenship rights/requirements of people born in NI, not the GFA. The only change that the GFA brought into effect in this regard (citizenship), was the change to the Irish citizenship law which said that now (most) all people born on the Island are automatically Irish citizens from birth.
Do you understand that?


Next task, read this slowly from my previous post as it came to me from Moses.
"Irish nationality only qualifies you for the FAI.
An Irish national born in the North is automatically a British national even if he/she never obtains a UK passport, even if he/she only aspires to be an Irish citizen. NI born are automatic dual citizens. Only the automatic British nationality qualifies a NI born to be eligible to play for NI."

Geysir, how about you try to understand something? Repeating your own unsubstantiated interpretation ad nauseum does not make it fact. I fully understand what you're trying to say, I just don't agree that it's correct. Do you understand that?

[Mr_Parker]

Post 206.

LOL!!! :D

Now, I mean a proper source.

A link to a FIFA or Uefa document for example.

[geysir]

Geysir, how about you try to understand something? Repeating your own unsubstantiated interpretation ad nauseum does not make it fact. I fully understand what you're trying to say, I just don't agree that it's correct. Do you understand that?
I fear Nedser that no explanation is possible, as you appear to attach way too much value to your (mistaken) interpretation that the FIFA match official, who is prepared to accept an Irish passport as evidence of identity, is in your opinion acknowledging that an Irish citizen is eligible to play for the IFA, that the British nationality is incidental.
An interpretation which makes you ignore the FIFA statutes of Eligibility and the Nationality laws of Britain.
I know FIFA officials are powerful, but that powerful?
If you fully understand my post then what part do not agree with and what do you base that opinion on?

But read before replying
1. UK Agreement 1992 eligibility of players (http://www.englandfootballonline.com/App/AppIntPlyrsUK.html)
2. FIFA Statutes - rules of eligibility, article 16 - which outline the UK agreement
3. The GFA - Constitutional Issues - article 1.Vi and annex A 1.
4. The British Nationality Law 1983

[Gather round]

[Brian Kerr] at least he acknowledges that he could be accused of hypocrisy!

Indeed. He might get some gentle stick when the OWC trawler gets to Torshavn ;)


the whole basis of Unionism on this island is that they want their country to be the UK, not Northern Ireland (or Ireland)

Not quite. The basis is that they don't want to be part of the Republic of Ireland. Within that there are integrationists, devolutions, even occasionally some arguing for independence.


It does muddy the waters, because FIFA's eligibility criteria are based on nationality, and Northern Irish "nationality" doesn't exist in law. As I previously pointed out, there are actually 2 distinct issues being debated here, the second of which is whether it's reasonable to play for 2 different teams. I actually agree with your view on that question though

OK, I suggested it didn't muddy the waters because basically I agree with you and most others on the thread on the other issue.


The Faroe Islands situation is very different. It's not a fully independent country, but is certainly more independent than NI. For example, it's not part of the EU and has its own currency

In practice, the Faroes currency is just different banknotes with the same value, like NI and Scotland's. Isle of Man and Channel Islands aren't in the EU, but won't be joining UEFA or FIFA anytime soon.


Unless you are very old, you started living in Dublin after FIFA started using that term

Early 80s (but I'm fairly well-preserved thanks).


Again this is inconsistent on FIFA's part, and comes down to the UK's special position of power

You're getting a bit carried away. Anyway, there are other exceptions eg Taiwan.


New 6 county excellence managers..funded by me the taxpayer, primary school coaches..funded by me the taxpayer, ground improvements..funded by me the taxpayer

That's a lot of taxes, CDG. Are you Michael Ashcroft?


Lets just go the same way as the Irish rugby team. Nobody cares whether players are catholics or protestants or nationalists/unionists

Not a rugby fan, but I thought quite a lot of people cared? Which must be why, for example, the IRFU started to play the Ireland's Call song at games to welcome unionists, in turn leading to some criticism
from nationalists.


It is time to return to one team representing the Island of Ireland. We do not have all this aggro with the Rugby team as to who plays for who. With one team representing Ireland all this aggro about who plays for who will go away

It won't go away because it isn't going to happen. Stop deluding yourself.


Hopefully for the most part supporters of Ireland will refrain from calling anyone derogatory names

That's nice. Hopefully they'll also refrain from demanding other teams be abolished.


The FAI is selecting players from 32 counties & all are entitled to play for us, defacto its jurisdiction

Don't forget all the counties of England and Scotland that they select from (ie, all 'jurisdiction' means here is 'anywhere in the World where someone has an Irish granny').


To your point about the FAI only approaching catholic players, do you really think this is sectarian?

I doubt the FAI is sectarian at all. It's just determined- and fairly successful- in finding new players outside the country. There's no inherent reason why they wouldn't try to attract players from unionist areas.


The only dishonour is the fact that the FAI stuck with such a "gentlemens agreement" for so long, if indeed such a thing ever existed. At best is seems very loose

Don't be melodramatic, there was no dishonor involved. It mutually suited, that's why it lasted so long.


Over the years the IFA and their fans have done little to warrent loyalty from the FAI - perhaps in some alternative universe - but not thru the N Irish Vs Ireland games, plus all the other antics I've witnessed over many years

See immediately above. Like you, I've attended NI v RoI games over the years and seen some antics from both sides. That's what happens in international football- and I've seen just as bad and worse in plenty of other venues across Europe.


Wanted to avoid this debate, but really laughed that you think you can talk about dishonour. You might think there is more dishonour in:, say, only last year a man killed in Coleraine by football fans celebrating winning the league

Whoa. Less of the lazty stereotyping please.


The anthem/flag/location of the ground is NOT the issue and I wish people would be a bit more honest. Quite frankly there is NOTHING the IFA can do that would make me give my allegience to Northern Ireland/any northern Ireland team so using it as a stick to beat NI supporters is a bit rich

Fair point. In other words, the IFA should change the anthem because I don't like it, not because you don't.


I think in reality the OWC fans want

All I want as above is adult players not being able to play for two different national teams. I welcome anyone qualified, willing and good enough to play for NI. I doubt the NI team will ever be entirely unionist, but if it ever is for a one-off game it's not the end of the World- any more than would be the coincidence of a Southern team with 11 players from Britain in the line-up.


Any word on that meeting GR?

I didn't mention any meeting. That's the nature of informal agreements, meetings often aren't documented. It would be a bit daft to claim there was no agreement when the claim that there was is backed by decades of player selection.


Bring on an all-UK team I say! Lets wrap this up once and for all. The NI fans can head to London, and we can get some peace...

Ha ha. There's no demnd for and no chance of an all UK team. Stop stirring.


NI fans call the UK a country or NI a country interchangely depending on their argument

Why is this a problem? They are both countries albeit in different contexts. NI has been playing international football for a century, ergo it's recognised by other countries in FIFA as a country.


Recently they have started calling themselves Irish to twist an eligibility ruling. Interesting if they are Irish why the would be reduced to insulting 80%+ of their own fellow countrymen/beggars/gypsies...

What are you talking about? Nobody has just realised they're Irish. Most people in Northern Ireland's ancestors have been Irish for centuries. Which doesn't mean they can't criticise other Irish people, obviously.


The existence of the NI team is in a much more dubious state than the allowance of any Irish-born person to represent Ireland. The IFA would need to watch themselves...

There's no doubt about the existence of the NI team. So they don't need to watch themselves unduly, do they?


This is an interesting pyschological study into what happens when you do not engage with the other strand of the community with which you live. You only hear one point of view all the time, and take it as accepted fact as it is unchallenged

I'd concentrate on my own psychological quirks if I were you- obsessing about others' football teams for a start.

[Gather round]

I think the days of northern catholics/nationalists playing for NI are gone (there will be exceptions)

Not really sure what you think then? No surprise there. I think many players from nationalist backgrounds will continue to play for NI for the same reasons they always have, although I accept the current row will put off a few.


english anthem is not accepted by close to half in the 6 counties and nobody in the 26 and righly so after what was done to our country by the britsh/english government

What are you, 102? The British Government hasn't done anything to you or your country for 90 years. Stop living in the past.


I feel that despite the FAI's ability to select players born in the north, the root of the problem remains the image of the IFA and the Northern Ireland team (and perhaps moreso the actual socio-political climate of the north)

Aye, your more so is much more relevant. It wouldn't matter how good or better the image of the IFA and NI team, the wider climate remains. I'm broadly comfortable with that image, but there's always room for criticism and improvement.


the image of playing for Northern Ireland is unfortunately extremely politically-charged and the fault for that must surely lie with the IFA and the fans

I wouldn't be so sure. You can't seriously claim the IFA and fans created a politically-charged atmosphere single-handed. 3,000 violent deaths might just have been a factor?


You speak of good players that might otherwise be lost? Through a choice afforded to them. The IFA need to think of it in terms of 'Insulating' themselves from the ruling. That guy Kee has offered the only constructive statements in all of this, in my mind any way. I think the rest is very short sited

As I said, no player should be able to play for two international teams successively. I think they shouldn't have that choice, no more. It's reasonable, constructive and not short-sighted at all.


The FAI & IFA both have a role to play in getting this ironed out, I'm far from convinced about an AI team, not because I personally have an issue with it but I think there would be many who would, on both sides of the fence. Maybe in the future but I think we’re still a long way from that scenario

Fair points. It might be wishful thinking but I reckon the FAI do have something to gain from a compromise deal.


It’s very convenient & rather schoolyard for the IFA to cry foul and run to FIFA
Broadly agreed. It's also potentially very wasteful, going to law isn't cheap.


without them looking at the reasons behind the moves. Why did Lennon retire early? What effect did that have on underage Catholic players in NI? What can be done from the IFA to stem the tide? Personally I think they have made very little effort and a few simple steps would pave the way, replace GSTQ with Danny Boy (used in the Commonwealth games) or something more unique to NI.
If moving from Windsor isn’t an option anymore (I still think the idea of a multi-sports venue in Belfast is a fantastic solution) they should make more of an effort to reach the Nationalist community

Personally I know they have made huge efforts to attract good players and enduring support (and see NewryRep's point on flag and anthem above). I believe moving from Windsor is back in discussion, a factor being that government will have reservations about grants to a private company (ie Linfield). That said, if refurbing Windsor is significantly cheaper I'd welcome that instead.


the FAI and IFA should come together as the AIFA (All Ireland Football Association) and put one team in for FIFA consideration, Irelands Call be the anthem and let football cement the peace process by giving every Irish person a common interest. It would also increase the quality of our team and show those living in the past that they are going to be left behind to cry over the milk they spilt

No they shouldn't. NI fans want there to be a NI team now and in the future. Nothing to do with living in the past.


In any case Ealing , I still believe we should follow the example set by the IRFU and form an Irish team. It would have an incredible effect on the future of our country

Er, we have two different countries.


Which is all well and grand. But we have to accept Illegal Colonization

You don't. There isn't any. Stop talking nonsense.


As said to fans of the 'North' many times, just be grateful you even have a team

Why? We don't need to be any more grateful than anyone else.


Eventually it will be a choice between an AI or AB team

It won't. There's no likelihood of either in the foreseeable future.


Except with the exception of Paul Butler (ex-Wolves, Leeds, Oldham), who qualified by marriage, no-one who's not eligible for a passport (or team) via the usual family links has ever played for Ireland, AFAIK. Unlike a Herr.M.Taylor.....

What's your point? They all qualified under the rules at the time. Someone like Taylor wouldn't now, not a problem.


And virtually no-one in Ireland refers to it, except in the occasional misguided sporting context , as The 'Republic', FFS

Right, so everyone agrees with you except, er, the people who don't. I suggested it USED to be more common, as I know from living there.


Well we could call you 'The Planters' or worse. But why bother?
Dunno why you bothered to do it 150 times on the last related thread?


They should stop being so paranoid and recognise that not everyone in their archaic colonial theme park Doesn't want to belong to it or its sports teams, unless they really had to

We look forward to you leaving the archaic theme park pronto. Ideally on a one-way ticket. You could always try the Republic of Ireland for a change.


I'm of a purely utilitarian view on the matter and support the FAI in exploiting whatever avenue we have to acquire talent in whatever way FIFA will allow. I can perfectly understand the frustration and even ire of Northern Ireland fans, particularly surrounding the Duffy case, and indeed I'd feel the same if the situation were reversed but football is all about self interest

Fair enough- although I (like many readers here) thought it was about fair play as well?


I know from previous threads that this will provoke EG and GR into apoplectic rage, but after GFF we need to be pragmatic and imaginative in the way that tradiitions are recognised in Ireland and spaces created where traditional loyalties and animosities can be broken down

You obviously didn't read (or possibly understand) my previous replies. There's no likelihood of an end to the NI team. So I've no reason to be apoplectic, however much you continue to stir it.


The Northern Ireland say they want to keep these players but they do nothing what so ever accommodate them - infact they have done the opposite - they introduce blue highlights to there home shirt, the continue to use the Ulster Banner flag as "their flag" despite it being a symbol of Loyalism in the six counties and they continue to sing God Save the Queen prior to games!!

Ha ha. I think you might be getting a bit carried away there. You think there's some hidden message in the blue highlights?


The Linfield crowd last night at the Pats game would also make up a large part of the NI support...the BNP stuff not so funny. And all too real

Real but they are a very samll minority. You can't lazily stigmatise all international fans on the basis of a few people at a club game.


The were not Brazil stuff must be soul destroying for all pro footballers in NI. Bouncy, bouncy will suffice over qualifying for a major championship. Sad and delusional

Spare us the cod psychology. It's only a song; players appreciate enthusiastic support from the fans; NI's ambition to qualify is the same as any other third rank country (ie we won't do it that often, but it'll be all the sweeter for it).


The only thing the FAI need to stop doing is actively recruiting NI players at underage level. This is not fair at all in my opinion and if it is happening, it should stop

Probably impossible to distinguish between active recruitment and the other (passive?). If they want to play for the South, let them, regardless of who makes the first approach. But only if they haven't played for NI's adult teams first.

[greendeiseboy]

I'd like to hear from someone on this from a "nationalist" background for want of a better word who supports Northern Ireland with their views on this debate.

[Newryrep]

Personally speaking the right of northern born players to play for ROI is not up for negoiation however I wouldnt have a problem of players making a declaraton at 18 of their international intentions*

*whether this is a purely NI/ROI agreement or is run simultaneously in conjunction with a similar UK internal agreement I am not bothered although I suspect that the IFA/SFA and Welsh FA may not be too keen to sign it

[Mr_Parker]

I'd like to hear from someone on this from a "nationalist" background for want of a better word who supports Northern Ireland with their views on this debate.

I support both. Do I count? :)

[greendeiseboy]

I support both. Do I count? :)

No - sole traders only!!

[Nedser]

LOL!!! :D

Now, I mean a proper source.

A link to a FIFA or Uefa document for example.

Well what you asked for was a "link" or "quote". I provided you with a "quote", which, just to be clear, is one of the things you asked for. In fact, I simply reminded you of where you could find the quote that I previously provided, which you had apparently missed. As I said, if you want to argue that Cascarino just made that story up, then go ahead, but it's pretty hard to see why he would have. It's certainly more evidence than you have provided in support of your bizarre assertion that FIFA do not require any evidence of eligibility.

To summarise my view, an account from a former international player counts for far more than the unsubstantiated opinion of an anonymous internet poster, but each to their own.

[Nedser]

Not quite. The basis is that they don't want to be part of the Republic of Ireland. Within that there are integrationists, devolutions, even occasionally some arguing for independence.

Eh, sorry, but anyone who wants independence is not a "Unionist". A Unionist supports the Union with Britain. The "Union" part of "Unionist" kind of gives it away.

PS: just to reiterate, there is no such country as the Republic of Ireland, the state is called Ireland. Even the UK has now accepted that, so you really should too. Even if it is hard for an "early 80 year old" to change his ways :rolleyes:

[dr_peepee]

As I said, no player should be able to play for two international teams successively. I think they shouldn't have that choice, no more. It's reasonable, constructive and not short-sighted at all.

Maybe I took you up wrong. In our case there's a choice afforded. Are you questioning their eligability to represent both in the first place? Or the fact that they can change at as late a stage as 21? Or the fact that they can change at all?

[ifk101]

I'm not sure if it was you and/or others that posted a comment on youtube in response to that video but they have all been removed today. Are the IFA afraid of debate? I had read them and I didn't read anything that could be seen as breaking youtube rules.

No, I haven't posted any comments. Some comments there now though about censorship. :D

[Mr_Parker]

No - sole traders only!!
:D ;)

[Mr_Parker]

Well what you asked for was a "link" or "quote". I provided you with a "quote", which, just to be clear, is one of the things you asked for. In fact, I simply reminded you of where you could find the quote that I previously provided, which you had apparently missed. As I said, if you want to argue that Cascarino just made that story up, then go ahead, but it's pretty hard to see why he would have. It's certainly more evidence than you have provided in support of your bizarre assertion that FIFA do not require any evidence of eligibility.

To summarise my view, an account from a former international player counts for far more than the unsubstantiated opinion of an anonymous internet poster, but each to their own.

You obviously haven't dealt with to many football players in your time if you credit them as reliable sources.

As I stated before, you cannot demand proof of something that does not exist nor could anyone provide such. A reading of the FIFA Statutes, Competition Regulations (I gave you the current World Cup as an example) and Match Delegate duties and regulations would show you that there is no such requirement. Added to the fact of the 2006 case when it was proven that passport pertaing to the country being played for was not required, more than demonstrates that you are wrong in your claim.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Eh, sorry, but anyone who wants independence is not a "Unionist". A Unionist supports the Union with Britain. The "Union" part of "Unionist" kind of gives it away.

PS: just to reiterate, there is no such country as the Republic of Ireland, the state is called Ireland. Even the UK has now accepted that, so you really should too. Even if it is hard for an "early 80 year old" to change his ways :rolleyes:

Ha ha. Fair playing for highlighting the usual pompous paranoia!
Like it or not, there'll always be a moral claim on the six counties and their sports teams until the British state ends its colonial subsidy.
Be it a thousand, hours, days, weeks, months or years.
My €'s is on the penultimate.
;)

[geysir]

As I said, no player should be able to play for two international teams successively. I think they shouldn't have that choice, no more. It's reasonable, constructive and not short-sighted at all.
........
If they want to play for the South, let them, regardless of who makes the first approach. But only if they haven't played for NI's adult teams first.


According to that, basically you are in agreement with the current eligibility rules but would prefer a player to be tied if he has been capped at adult level (18 and over?) and not just as it stands now - at senior competitive level.
Seeing as FIFA have just removed the age barrier of 21 years to any change, that would be very wishful thinking.
A gentleman's agreement perhaps? :)
If there was a time for that, it was way back in December 2007 when the IFA should have accepted FIFA´s offer to make a deal and come with their (bowler) hat in hand to meet with the FAI and knuckle out some agreement. They were too busy banging the drum to read the writing on the wall.

As it stands now, it is unfortunate for the OWC that there is such a collection of great minds as the IFA. They do not know if they are coming or going. Considering the IFA do not even understand the glaringly obvious concept of Article 16 which defines eligibility for their own team, it would be advisable to keep any expectations well under wraps.
Dare I say, a stop off at Lourdes might be in order for the IFA delegation on their way to CAS? or perhaps a few doses of EST?

[co. down green]

So the North have decided that they are being treated unfairly because lads growing up in Ireland,who qualify for Ireland, who are born in Ireland, who hold Irish passports and who support Ireland, want to play for Ireland.

Hardly surprising!

The IFA go to FIFA and ask for a ruling over the eligibility of players like Darron Gibson etc.. and are told that the existing situation remains, players born in the North are eligible to play for Ireland. The IFA then go back to FIFA six months later to challenge FIFA’s previous ruling, because Alex Bruce decides to play for Ireland rather than the North. (Co. Down grandmother), and are told that the existing situation remains, players born in the North are eligible to play for Ireland. They then approach FIFA for a third time to ask for further clarification on their previous two rulings. The FAI, out of the goodness of their heart, offer the IFA a compromise, stating that they are prepared to consider the North being allowed to select players from all over the Island, to try and offset any leakage of players due to FIFA rules. The IFA reject this offer and insist that players born in The North should not be allowed to play for Ireland. Sepp Blatter then publicly tells the IFA that the existing situation remains, players born in the North are eligible to play for Ireland.

So….. the situation today remains, Just as it was during the mid 90’s when players like Gerard Crossley & Mark McKeever from Belfast and Derry were representing Ireland.

If Nigel Worthington and the IFA think it’s wrong that teenage kids can decide that they want to play for Ireland at a certain age, rather than the North, why do they not have the same concerns when they approach England underage internationals like Oliver Norwood (http://www.btrcc.lancs.sch.uk/html/oliver_norwood_.html) and Joe Dudgeon. Both these Manchester United academy players played for England u16 & u17’s before being persuaded to come and play for the North.

Indeed, while Leeds born Dudgeon was unavailable for the North’s u21 team last night, Norwood scored twice for the team against San Marino. An u21 team that included in its strike force - Leicester born Billy Kee, Walsall born William Grigg & Northampton born Billy McKay. Burnley Born Norwood and Watford born Michael Bryan in midfield and Watford born Lee hodson in defence.

All those named in The North’s u21 squad qualified in accordance with FIFA regulations, just as Gibson, Wilson, McEleney, Kearns etc.. qualify to play for Ireland .

PS. Are the IFA carrying out a sectarian poaching policy by only approaching Catholic born England internationals like Dudgeon & Norwood to play for them. :)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye CDG,
Hypocrisy all round! Not to mention myopia (& amnesia!).

[Paddy Garcia]

Norwood scored twice for the team against San Marino. An u21 team that included in its strike force - Leicester born Billy Kee, Walsall born William Grigg & Northampton born Billy McKay. Burnley Born Norwood and Watford born Michael Bryan in midfield and Watford born Lee hodson in defence.


....suggest we offer these lads the opportunity to play for a decent team. No reason they should be confined to the gutter. Lets have Norwood anyway.

Don't be surprised at the hypocrisy - I've been reading Ealing & his mate's posts for too long.

[Gather round]

Eh, sorry, but anyone who wants independence is not a "Unionist". A Unionist supports the Union with Britain. The "Union" part of "Unionist" kind of gives it away

Actually it doesn't. Many unionists have always been more agreed on what they're against- anything to do with the South- than the detail of their relationship with the rest of Britain. The independent Ulster supporters saw themselves as unionists, so pretty much they are. Eccentric though it sounds.


PS: just to reiterate, there is no such country as the Republic of Ireland, the state is called Ireland

Reiterate it all you like. I'm relaxed about what you call the country, I'll continue to call it the South or the Republic. Everyone knows where I mean, and why get hidebound by names? They differ from place to place.


Even the UK has now accepted that, so you really should too

Why? I only call it Ireland when I mean all of it, not just part. You might as well get used to it.


Are you questioning their eligability to represent both in the first place? Or the fact that they can change at as late a stage as 21? Or the fact that they can change at all?

I've made it clear- I think playing international football as an adult should tie a player to one country even if he has dual nationality.


Ha ha. Fair playing for highlighting the usual pompous paranoia!

Come again? I haven't said anything pompous or paranoid (or deluded, unlike you).


Like it or not, there'll always be a moral claim on the six counties and their sports teams until the British state ends its colonial subsidy. Be it a thousand, hours, days, weeks, months or years

If you're that bothered about saving the British government money, why don't you go back to Ardee?


According to that, basically you are in agreement with the current eligibility rules but would prefer a player to be tied if he has been capped at adult level (18 and over?) and not just as it stands now - at senior competitive level. Seeing as FIFA have just removed the age barrier of 21 years to any change, that would be very wishful thinking

Aye, that's right. I don't expect it to be easy...


If Nigel Worthington and the IFA think it’s wrong that teenage kids can decide that they want to play for Ireland at a certain age, rather than the North, why do they not have the same concerns when they approach England underage internationals

A fair question. The logic doesn't seem to be much more than it's OK to recruit players from larger countries, but not smaller.


suggest we offer these lads the opportunity to play for a decent team

Er, they've already had the chance to play for two teams at pretty much the same standard. Look at the results and seedings.


No reason they should be confined to the gutter

They aren't. Save us the self-righteousness.


Lets have Norwood anyway

I don't think you can, he's already played for two countries..


Don't be surprised at the hypocrisy - I've been reading Ealing & his mate's posts for too long

If that's directed at me, back it with some evidence. I've said nothing hypcritical. Nor, unlike you, blamed NI football fans generally for a sectarian murder. Wind your neck in.

[Predator]

Good article in the Belfast Telegraph by Chris Donnelly: Empathy, not enforcement is what's needed in Irish soccer (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/empathy-not-enforcement-is-whatrsquos-needed-in-irish-soccer-14706503.html)

[ArdeeBhoy]

I haven't said anything pompous or paranoid (or deluded).

You might like to re-read your own past tedious posts on the subject. And then read the dictionary definitions of those words! ;)
It's definitely proof you need to get out more....

[dantheman]

Another debate here at 1:03:10, http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1067770 after the Brazil match.

Bill aska a question about northern players, but the panel rejects Kerr's article (although the answered more about British players, than those from the north).

Well what was Houghton going to say? :cool:

[Mr_Parker]

Good article in the Belfast Telegraph by Chris Donnelly: Empathy, not enforcement is what's needed in Irish soccer (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/empathy-not-enforcement-is-whatrsquos-needed-in-irish-soccer-14706503.html)

I don't know if it is really that good an article since he doesn't seem to understand the FIFA Statutes and there standing in this issue but rather talks about the GFA etc.

[geysir]

True enough, at least he was referring to discussions with others who didn't understand namely Howard Wells and the IFA.
In general he gives an account of perception, i'd leave to you lot to decide if he speaks for many nationalists.

And the North did vote to accept the terms of the GFA which included the Irish citizenship birth right thing. It was not entered into NI Statute law as there was no need, only a change to the irish law was needed. Yet the perception amongst Unionists is that this aspect of Republic citizenship laws are irredentist rather than a mutual democratically accepted principle.

Here he is almost accurate when dealing with the loophole accusation.
'It isn't a loophole that permits Irish-born citizens here to represent the Republic's team. It is an entitlement which FIFA has already affirmed a year ago.'

For 'Irish-born' read Northern Irish born Irish citizens (NIBIC) .