Player eligibility row

[geysir]

I wouldn't mind also having a browse over the details that will reveal the extent of the utter stupidity of the IFA appeal. And how much it cost them:)
I am now more inclined to go along with the theory that the IFA mainly appealed to CAS to appease the heavy irrational criticism from the over-emotional OWC fans as to their efforts in general over the eligibility issue. Probably in the main, they have succeeded with that.
The other theory, that the IFA actually believed they even had a snowballs-chance-in-hell case, would mean they were even more thick than most of the blinkered OWC fans who were critical of their efforts. That is hard for me to accept right now after having a read of a few threads on the OWC discussion board.

Advice from CAS to IFA : in future, RTFM before wasting the court's time.

[Louth4sam]

Daniel Kearns signed for Dundalk today.

Best of luck to the kid

http://www.dundalkfc.com/news/100805_Kearns.asp

Decent début from him. Can imagine the craic if we get drawn a Northern team in the Setanta if he's here next season!

[ArdeeBhoy]

If he's gone to Oriel he's not as good as everyone claimed. And he'll need all the luck going!

What was all the fuss about??
;)

[DannyInvincible]

Still nothing from CAS today regarding the grounds for the decision. Hopefully we'll get something this week, as to consider a fortnight to be "a few days" is certainly a bit of a stretch. I've been keeping a watch here, where I'm assuming it'll be published: http://www.tas-cas.org/recent-decision

[Charlie Darwin]

No developments as of yet as regards the report, but Duffy's own comments seem to confirm that it was the CAS case that held up his registration:


So Duffy was relieved to see a ruling by the Swiss-based Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) last week which cleared the way for Belfast boy Daniel Kearns, ex-West Ham but now with Dundalk, to play for the Republic. "I know Daniel and that ruling is great for him. He's a great player and having the clearance for him to play for the Republic will make it OK for me to play," said Duffy.

http://www.herald.ie/sport/soccer/duffy-living-for-big-time-2294182.html

Still don't quite understand why.

[DannyInvincible]

I find this very confusing as well. Don't understand it at all why Duffy's clearance would have been held up by FIFA. Reading the original press release from CAS (http://www.tas-cas.org/en/infogenerales.asp/4-3-4316-1092-4-1-1/5-0-1092-15-1-1/), I notice it mentions something about Kearns having been adjudged to have satisfied article 18 of the FIFA statutes by a FIFA judge before the IFA made their appeal.


... On 3 November 2009, the Football Association of Ireland (FAI) submitted a request to FIFA to allow the player Daniel Kearns to represent the national team of the FAI based on his dual British and Irish nationalities. The Single Judge of the FIFA Players’ Status Committee decided that Mr Kearns fulfilled the objective requirements provided by Article 18 of the Regulations Governing the Application of the FIFA Statutes, since the player had never represented Northern Ireland in an official competition at “A” International level. The IFA filed an appeal with CAS on 2 March 2010 and the case was heard by a CAS Panel in Lausanne on 19 July 2010....

Article 18 is the statute relating to players who have represented an association already but wish to change to another. From just this press release alone, it appears that CAS's primary focus was possibly on article 18 then, which is actually very interesting, as I believe the IFA's main gripe was over how FIFA were interpreting articles 15 and 16, or something; it's hard to know what the IFA actually could have argued, to be honest, so I imagine it will be quite an education to see what approach they did take when we see the report. Possibly, however, CAS felt the IFA's combination of grievance and misunderstanding over how articles 15 and 16 were to apply didn't even warrant serious consideration as it is so self-evident that those holding permanent Irish nationality not dependent on residence - as is the case for players like Kearns and Gibson - ought to be eligible to play for us and, likewise, that Irish nationality does not under any circumstances entitle any player to represent more than one team. CAS must have been wondering to themselves what the hell they were supposed to be "deciding", it was all so obvious.

And so, I can only speculate that because Duffy had represented Northern Ireland before seeking to change over to the FAI, FIFA needed to ensure by way of CAS's decision, that he, like Kearns, also satisfied the criterion in article 18 as the four articles relating to eligibility were probably taken as one for consideration under the overall appeal.

Does that make sense? It's all I can think of really. I'm assuming the detailed report will provide enlightenment. In the form of a comedy script, possibly... Whenever CAS finally decide to grace us with it, that is.

[aidinho]

how the feck did yous guys no get Paddy McCourt? if he didnae smoke 40 smokes a day he would p!sh all over Messi.

[DannyInvincible]

McCourt was first capped by Northern Ireland in 2002 before his spells with Shamrock Rovers and Derry City and whilst playing with Rochdale. Maybe he had no interest in playing for us or fancied his chances with them more; who knows?

[aidinho]

McCourt was first capped by Northern Ireland in 2002 before his spells with Shamrock Rovers and Derry City and whilst playing with Rochdale. Maybe he had no interest in playing for us or fancied his chances with them more; who knows?

hes a diehard Celtic fan so if yous gave him the choice I'm sure he would've picked yous over the north. so is Nial McGuinn too but to be honest I don't think he will make it at Celtic.

[DannyInvincible]

hes a diehard Celtic fan so if yous gave him the choice I'm sure he would've picked yous over the north.

He always had the choice. ;)

I read somewhere that McGinn had no interest in ever playing for us, although I'm not sure what the reasoning behind it was. Not sure how accurate the claim was either. It might have been on OWC actually. They're both excellent players, however, and thankfully I've had the pleasure of witnessing Paddy McCourt in the flesh at Derry City. McGinn as well, but I think McCourt is quite a special talent. Pity he's always injured, mind.

[Acornvilla]

does anyone have a direct link and quote saying that players from the north have the right to play for the south now

and/or the cas verdict, i'm sure its in here somewhere but I've only really been keeping half an eye on this thread now so unsure :S

thanks in advance if anyone can help

[DannyInvincible]

does anyone have a direct link and quote saying that players from the north have the right to play for the south now

They've always had the right prior to the CAS case; not just "now". Article 15 (on page 67) of the FIFA statutes makes things pretty clear: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/federation/01/24/fifastatuten2009_e.pdf


"15: Principle
1. Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the Association of that country."



and/or the cas verdict, i'm sure its in here somewhere but I've only really been keeping half an eye on this thread now so unsure :S

This right was affirmed in the form of a dismissal by CAS of the IFA's appeal on the 30th of July: http://www.tas-cas.org/en/infogenerales.asp/4-3-4316-1092-4-1-1/5-0-1092-15-1-1/


"The CAS Panel dismissed the appeal and confirmed the decision issued by the Single Judge of the FIFA Players’ Status Committee, which recognized that Daniel Kearns was eligible to play for the national team of the FAI."

Daniel Kearns was what you'd call a "test case", so essentially it was just (re-)confirmation that all players in his circumstances were similarly eligible to play for us.

CAS have yet to publish the full grounds for the decision, however. I e-mailed them the other night asking for further information on when the grounds might be published if possible and received the following reply this afternoon:


"Dear Sir,

Thank you for your message and for your interest in the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

The reasoned award will be notified to the parties in the coming weeks. Until such time, the CAS is unable to comment any further on the matter.

Yours sincerely,

CAS secretariat"

Bit of a change from their original statement claiming they'd publish the details of the verdict within a few days and it still leaves it all rather open-ended, but what can you do?

[Acornvilla]

i know they always had the right sorry if i was unclear on that i just anted to have a look at all the info without trawling thru all the bs in here thanks :)

[ArdeeBhoy]

McCourt was first capped by Northern Ireland in 2002 before his spells with Shamrock Rovers and Derry City and whilst playing with Rochdale. Maybe he had no interest in playing for us or fancied his chances with them more; who knows?

My pal (ex-Doire) claims McCourt was interested but no approach was made in his earlier career before he played for the North. Then his career went into hibernation for around 5 years, by which case he'd almost fallen off the radar even for them.
No idea re.McGinn, but perhaps now both would have the confidence to put themself up before the FAI scouts before deciding which way to go with the first competitive cap etc.

Doubtless there will be more pioneers who will have 'swung both ways', before hopefully coming over to us, if they're any good?

[OneRedArmy]

McGinn played Gaa in South Tyrone (possibly on the Minor panel iirc?) so he's a more surprising one than McCourt. ON McCourt, like it or not, players from Derry have a strong previous history of declaring for the North even in relatively recent times (i.e. last few decades), Felix Healy, Liam Coyle, David Campbell etc.

[ifk101]

We need to remember that NI born players need to contact the FAI about their availability to play for us. The FAI has "agreed" with the IFA not to make the first approach with regards to NI born players. It's up to the individual player to weigh up his options but perhaps it should be made clearer for NI born players that they do need to make the first move rather than waiting for the FAI to contact them.

[paul_oshea]

I wouldn't be that naive IFK101, im sure the FAI are aware of the better players in the North and indirectly make the overtures.

[ifk101]

Yes they are well aware of up and coming NI born players. Individual fans are quite quick to let the FAI know about them. But remember there was a lot of whinging here about why the FAI wasn't active in pursuing Shane Duffy. Indeed an email posted here from Sean McCaffrey stated that it was up to Shane Duffy to contact the FAI and make his availability known to them directly if he wanted to represent us.

[paul_oshea]

Thats not really what I am saying.

[ifk101]

You're saying that indirect approaches exist because you assume it's naive to believe otherwise. But why would the FAI go to the hassle of indirectly approaching players when NI born players are eligible to play for us regardless? They don't need to go behind anyone's back here - if they made/ make direct approaches to said players they're acting within their rights to do so. Bit of a pointless exercise to make indirect overtures, no?

[paul_oshea]

YOu just said above that they dont do teh first approach though?

[geysir]

He is an unassuming chap, unlike you Paul :)
He is merely offering a case as a contrast to what you regard as a fact, based on your assumption.

Direct/indirect approach or none, it does not matter, players are dual nationals de jure, living in a dual national statelet and fully entitled to declare for the FAI.

[irishfan86]

I say rip up the "gentlemen's agreement."

It does nothing to help us and may lead to some eligible players who want to play for us missing out due to confusion. My philosophy is that we should approach every eligible player we feel can help us.

[OneRedArmy]

By its nature a gentleman's agreement can't be ripped up!

I'd say its pretty much dead in the water anyway, but like any situation, the "indirect" route allows the FAI not to be seen to be overtly competing for players (which it clearly is).

[paul_oshea]

He is an unassuming chap, unlike you Paul :)
He is merely offering a case as a contrast to what you regard as a fact, based on your assumption.

Direct/indirect approach or none, it does not matter, players are dual nationals de jure, living in a dual national statelet and fully entitled to declare for the FAI.

Perhaps, but to me his first and 3rd posts seemed to contradict somewhat.

Though i never stated fact, but perhaps naive to believe that they automatically don't extend overtures to said players.

I was merely pointing out what ORA has explained in his second sentence above.

[geysir]

There is no gentleman's agreement existing at present, (for what it was) it ran its course. It could not adjust to the changing social and political landscape in the late 90's. Dual nationality became enshrined in what passes for a constitution in the North, it followed that some changes happened in social and political attitudes.

I think young players have enough cop to make their own approaches to the available FAI person.
This is not club football. There is no ownership of a player, there is no contract. Dual nationals are free agents until they get their first competitive cap. In any future possible agreement that might arise, the FAI hold all the aces and will not cede the basic principles outlined in the FIFA articles..

[backstothewall]

As the heat goes off this perhaps now is the time to start to think about the future of youth development, and increased co-operation between the FAI and IFA. I mean every club in the English league has an academy attached to it, so they're talented kids have a chance to get professional training on their doorsteps, while our talented teenagers are uprooted to England before most have started shaving. It has to make it harder for our kids to succeed without the support of their family at home.

Some parents are in a position to go across to let their children follow their dreams, such as the Evans' brothers parents, but obviously its not every family that can do this. George Best, having previously been rejected by Glentoran, jumped on the boat home after less than a week at Old Trafford, and had to be persuaded to go back. He did go back, but how many other Best's have got the boat home from Liverpool and never went back? One of our all time greats could well be making his sandwiches for work on the building site in the morning as I write this.

If the 2 FAs were to co-operate, instead of throwing mud at each other, there is no reason why we couldn't have such facilities here to the benefit of everyone. The transfer fees for 2 or 3 19 year old rough diamonds a season going across the water would go a long way towards financing it. Perhaps a deal could be struck with the English or Scots for our academy(s) to enter one of their Youth Cups (I'm sure the 5 or 6 Scottish teams capable of running a decent youth system would welcome the competition).

It would also be a great place for our ex-pros to get coaching experience, get their UEFA badges etc. If we could agree to field an all Ireland side in UEFA/FIFA underage competitions, it would cut costs for both associations, give us a better chance of qualifying for finals, and all without cutting down on international trips for the blazers, annoying anyone in the north, or forcing teenagers into the position where they have to nail their political colours to the mast in public with all the grace of a bulldog marking a lamp-post. Especially considering most of them probably don't really understand the politics or history of the issue and would much prefer to play football.

[ifk101]

There is no gentleman's agreement existing at present, (for what it was) it ran its course. It could not adjust to the changing social and political landscape in the late 90's. Dual nationality became enshrined in what passes for a constitution in the North, it followed that some changes happened in social and political attitudes.

There is a Gentleman's Agreement in existence, agreed in 1999 (although recent IFA actions can be perceived to have dishonoured the agreement, and thus breaking it). It's been assumed that there existed a Gentleman's Agreement from the 1950's but this was never the case.

[Charlie Darwin]

Here's an interesting one.

On MOTD tonight, they were discussing whether it would be a good idea to call up Mikel Arteta for England (Lawro the hypocrite said it "just wouldn't be right"). I lookedup Charles N'Zogbia for the same on wikipedia, and it states (unsourced) that N'Zogbia is in fact ineligible for England as he didn't have English nationality when he represented France at U21 level. If true, this would also rule out Arteta.

Article 18 states:



Article 18

1. If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality, subject to the following conditions:

(a) He has not played a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition at “A” international level for his current Association, and at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for his current Association, he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play.

Like most of the FIFA statutes, it's not very clearly written, but it seems to suggest that in order for a player to change nationalities, he has to have had permanent nationality of his adopted country at the time he played in a competitive underage international for his original country. This would rule out Arteta and N'Zogbia, but not Almunia.

[ArdeeBhoy]

But who would want Almunia???

[Stuttgart88]

Well, England has the world's best goalkeeper at the moment!

Why is Lawro being a hypocrite?

[Gather round]

Why is Lawro being a hypocrite?

Maybe he just thinks someone with numerous U-21 caps for one country shouldn't then play for another?

Or maybe he just doesn't want to support a Spaniard playing for England.

[Stuttgart88]

I'm sure he has those views - that's why he expressed them - but why is it hypocritical? Did he have multiple underage caps for England? Did he play international football on the basis of his residency?

[Charlie Darwin]

Maybe he just thinks someone with numerous U-21 caps for one country shouldn't then play for another?

Or maybe he just doesn't want to support a Spaniard playing for England.
He didn't mention anything about U21 caps and the strong implication was that he doesn't want anyone who doesn't "feel" English playing for the team. Which is a bit rich for a player who declared for Ireland because he didn't see himself getting a chance with England.

[Stuttgart88]

There have been numerous occasions when he has referred to himself publicly as an Irishman, not least when England won the Rugby WC in 2003 and he said he found it hard to take, and when Motson nearly sh@t himself on TV when Rooney got injured and Lawro said he wasn't fussed (as an Irishman). They've all been documented on foot.ie. The concept of heritage is lost on you obviously.

There's a world of difference between declaring for a foreign country aged 28 based only on residence* and a guy with strong Irish roots declaring for Ireland.

*I'm guessing here, but has all the required period been in England, or does his spell in Scotland also count towards his eligibility? - U21 caps for Spain notwithstanding,

[aidinho]

well, england has the world's best goalkeeper at the moment!

Why is lawro being a hypocrite?

lawro is fecking english mate.

[aidinho]

He always had the choice. ;)

I read somewhere that McGinn had no interest in ever playing for us, although I'm not sure what the reasoning behind it was. Not sure how accurate the claim was either. It might have been on OWC actually. They're both excellent players, however, and thankfully I've had the pleasure of witnessing Paddy McCourt in the flesh at Derry City. McGinn as well, but I think McCourt is quite a special talent. Pity he's always injured, mind.


that's how he is being blackballed then, we have Neil Lennon as coach now, he hates the Rangers just as much as those wee guys you saw during the orange walk was on in Belfast hitting them with petrol bombs and that..... and worse.

[dantheman]

So Neil Lennon is more bigotted than the dissident scumbags who rioted in Ardoyne?

[Nedser]

lawro is fecking english mate.

I suspect Lawrenson is one of those people who considers himself half Irish and half English. It's worth remembering that his Irish connections are a lot stronger than many others who have played for us - his Mother was Irish. Also, he first played for Ireland when he was 19 - I don't think he would have ruled out being good enough for England at that stage of his career, so it's probably a bit unfair to say he only declared for Ireland because England wouldn't pick him.

However, his Dad was English and he grew up in England, so it's also pretty unlikely that he grew up considering himself 100% Irish. I previously posted about the fact that a lot of English born people with Irish roots do consider themselves 100% Irish, but I doubt if many of them have English Dads.

Anyway, whatever you think of Lawrenson's allegiances, I have to say I agree that there is absolutely no parallel whatsoever between his situation and Arteta's.

[Nedser]

that's how he is being blackballed then, we have Neil Lennon as coach now, he hates the Rangers just as much as those wee guys you saw during the orange walk was on in Belfast hitting them with petrol bombs and that..... and worse.

Most bizarre post EVER!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Maybe he just thinks someone with numerous U-21 caps for one country shouldn't then play for another?

Shane Duffy's (& numerous others?) left the building. Get over it!

And the word is bigoted. Read Lennon's 'auto'biography. This was a man who was happy to accept a trial from the other team in Glasgow. Until of course they realised his, er, ethnicity.

Oh and Lawro was a great player for Ireland.
Just think he, misguidedly, became 'embarrassed' about it later. Met the man, he's a flouncer, but nothing worse.
Sh*t pundit mind, when it comes to people's nationality. Who cares?

[DannyInvincible]

*I'm guessing here, but has all the required period been in England, or does his spell in Scotland also count towards his eligibility? - U21 caps for Spain notwithstanding,

The years he spent in Scotland might contribute to him acquiring British nationality, depending on the relevant citizenship laws and whether residence in the UK must be continuous or not, of course - I admit, I'm not sure what the specific laws are relating to that, by the way - but, beyond the acquisition of British nationality, they're irrelevant as far as his alleged eligibility for England is concerned. Article 17 of the FIFA statutes on the acquisition of a new nationality states that he must have "lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association".

As Charlie Darwin has highlighted on the previous page, however, I don't actually see how Arteta satisfies what you might call the sub-criterion contained within article 18.1(a). Unless I've got it all wrong, I suspect this story, like the N'Zogbia one, was born out of lazy journalism. The amount of nonsense in the media surrounding what apparently is and isn't contained within FIFA's statute book - for a document freely available on the internet and easily accessible via a simple Google search - is absolutely staggering.

I am puzzled, though, as to why FIFA are entertaining the story on their official website: http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/clubfootball/news/newsid=1288151.html?cid=rssfeed&att=

[aidinho]

i suspect lawrenson is one of those people who considers himself half irish and half english. It's worth remembering that his irish connections are a lot stronger than many others who have played for us - his mother was irish. Also, he first played for ireland when he was 19 - i don't think he would have ruled out being good enough for england at that stage of his career, so it's probably a bit unfair to say he only declared for ireland because england wouldn't pick him.

However, his dad was english and he grew up in england, so it's also pretty unlikely that he grew up considering himself 100% irish. I previously posted about the fact that a lot of english born people with irish roots do consider themselves 100% irish, but i doubt if many of them have english dads.

Anyway, whatever you think of lawrenson's allegiances, i have to say i agree that there is absolutely no parallel whatsoever between his situation and arteta's.

no he is english mate

[aidinho]

So Neil Lennon is more bigotted than the dissident scumbags who rioted in Ardoyne?

aye probably, hes from the same neck and he has also had death threats from huns, while McGinn is pals with Lafferty whats that all about? Paddy McCourt is a true Celtic man and he would give blood for Celtic even though he cant get a game.

http://twitter.com/PaddyMcCourt20

thats paddys twitter BTW.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Whether we like it or not, Lawro is half & half. His Ireland caps were no illusion.
Get over it.

And that's really PMcC's Twitter, yeah right.

[dantheman]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/sport2/hi/football/irish/8936186.stm

What a shambles

[EastTerracer]

lawro is fecking english mate.

Lawrenson is almost certainly more irish than you are Aidinho. Don't get confused between your narrow, bigoted view of Irishness and what it really means to be Irish. You need to read a few more books and a chat with Neil Lennon wouldn't go amiss either (he's a far more moderate and tolerant man than you seem to realise).

[TrapAPony]

lawro is fecking english mate.


Going back to the point on Mark Lawrenson and whether he's ''Irish or not'', this is what he had to say regarding the Arteta situation and why he doesn't think he should play for England. Yesterday he said :


" No way should Mikel Arteta be picked for England.

"And that comes from someone who was born in Preston and yet played for the Republic of Ireland.

"The big difference is the blood line. My mother’s father was Irish, I wanted to play for Ireland and I just happened to be born in the wrong place.''

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Great-debate-Should-Mikel-Arteta-play-for-England-article562375.html

[irishfan86]

It's an interesting debate, and perhaps there is an element of old world vs. new world going on.

Lawro says "the big difference is the blood line."

Not calling Lawro a racist, but it's very funny to hear someone referring to blood as a defining factor in identity and nationality. I have little doubt that Arteta considers himself Spanish, but there are people in the world who move to another country and adopt it as their home.

Should those people not be allowed to choose their new country as their home, and if talented enough, represent their adopted home?

Having been raised in Canada, I'd say the majority of people here have multiple allegiances, and this has never seemed odd to me, given that it's the environment I've grown up in.

The world is changing and to try and continue to define a sense of nationality by bloodline seems archaic.

I met a guy from Colombia the other day, and he was raised there. Full accent and everything, but he repeated a couple of times that he "was Canadian." Never mentioned anything like "I am both," or "I am Colombian, but I have Canadian citizenship," he was just Canadian, period, in his mind. Nobody was pressing the issue or anything, it just sort of came up in conversation and it didn't seem to surprise anybody present.

The point I'm trying to make is that nationality is a very complex thing and within reason individuals should be able to choose the nation they wish to represent, assuming there is a legitimate connection, and contrary to what a good chunk of people think, I think residency is a legitimate way to qualify.

[Stuttgart88]

Of course - just ask Marcos Senna or Deco. Or the Brazilian Belgian who knocked us out of Euro 2000 or the Turks who knocked us out of Euro 2004 playing for Switzerland. Gary Twigg for Ireland!