Player eligibility row [Archive] - Page 29

Predator

01/08/2010, 12:22 AM

God knows. I'd expect Nelson (CEO) to explain. I'll ask him direct.If you get a response, I'd be interested to hear what he has to say. He seemed fairly clueless about the whole thing way back when the whole furore over Duffy's change erupted.

Sure, McNarry's talking through his hole. Judging purely by the comments in the article you quoted, McCausland is acknowledging that our future squads are likely to be weakened- doesn't everyone accept that? While I disagree with Rodgers (and Awec on here, as below), it's hardly idiotic to suggest some unfairness in the situation.McNarry certainly is talking nonsense - how could anyone ever entertain such a notion as that he is suggesting?!
McCausland appears to be trying to be diplomatic, but in saying that it's a 'poor result', he immediately positions himself in opposition to the principle of choice in this regard. I'll accept that future NI squads are likely to be weakened, but by how much is impossible to say - have NI squads been weakened considerably over the past decade?

Mr_Parker

01/08/2010, 1:26 AM

(I would say its pretty much mandatory to be in the Orange Order to achieve high office in the IFA)

Nonsense.

seanfhear

01/08/2010, 2:12 AM

Nonsense.
Is Raymond Kennedy in the Orange Order. Was/is his predcessor Boyce in the Orange Order.

To reach high office in the IFA you have to be in the Orange Order.

ArdeeBhoy

01/08/2010, 9:01 AM

Their usual pomposity aside......

Judging purely by the comments in the article you quoted, McCausland is acknowledging that our future squads are likely to be weakened- doesn't everyone accept that? While I disagree with Rodgers, it's hardly idiotic to suggest some unfairness in the situation.
What 'unfairness' ?? The rules haven't changed.

Of course these things change over time, and may run in cycles, but any kid making that choice in, say, 1994, might still only have seen you in one finals in his entire playing career. Paul Green and Sean St Ledger didn't abandon England because they thought the Republic of Ireland were more likely to qualify. Of course, there's always a chance that some unionist-background kid might have a row with the IFA coaches/ administrators and storm South (or even West, to Dan the Man's nice training camp in Andytown), but when did that last happen?
As opposed to No Finals in quarter of a century and counting, for anyone stupid enough to play for the North!
Lol.

Doesn't it depend what you mean by youth teams? As I've said, I'd make the cut-off any game as an adult (age 18 or above), as it seems a bit unfair to pressure younger guys.
Except with any country, it's a full competitive cap. It could hardly be much clearer.

They aren't 'scrotes' (and if they were, as others say above doesn't that make Ollie Norwood or Lee Hodson a scrote too?). They're simply playing according to the existing rules
Exactly. So why are the North whinging about Gibson, Duffy, Kearns et al??
The benefit as much as they 'lose'. More Hypocrisy.

There's no likelihood of either a united British team nor a politically united Ireland in the foreseeable future.
But at least all Irishmen can play for Ireland, not some shabby Brit.outfit!
;)

Half of your squad are guys who I'd guess feel just a little bit British (having lived all their lives in Britain, quite likely with their British parents).
At least check the facts. With the exception of Lawrenson & Townsend, most of the Diaspora would have no reason to feel English, Scottish or whatever, if only in the main most of their parents were Irish, which even you claim to be. Would you deny them even that?

All the French squad were Frenchmen who grew up in France, were they not? Most of the Algerians were French as well, qualifying through (grand)parentage.
Yes, but they were qualified to play for other countires. As the North should do with their dredging of the lower leagues in England & Scotland.
Lol.

Whataboutery alert. Do you think nonsense there justifies nonsense here?
Do you mean yours??
;)

Gather round

01/08/2010, 9:12 AM

I would say its pretty much mandatory to be in the Orange Order to achieve high office in the IFA

You would be wrong, as Mr Parker says. I'm fairly sure the current CEO, for example, isn't in the Orange Order.

If you get a response, I'd be interested to hear what he has to say. He seemed fairly clueless about the whole thing way back when the whole furore over Duffy's change erupted

We shall see...

I'll accept that future NI squads are likely to be weakened, but by how much is impossible to say - have NI squads been weakened considerably over the past decade?

Notionally, I think we'd be stronger with two more Premiership regulars (Gibson and Wilson) in our squad (we had only five last season- Evans, Hughes, Baird, McCartney and Paterson).

Gather round

01/08/2010, 9:33 AM

What 'unfairness' ?? The rules haven't changed

From Nelson McCausland's point of view (which I don't share), the situation has changed. For decades, relatively few prominent players from NI played for the Republic's teams. Now there's a perception (again, not shared by me) that this may become common, if not the default, for those from nationalist background. You can see why he's disappointed and sees that as unfair, especially given that the FAI feels it can choose ALL the players from NI.

As opposed to No Finals in quarter of a century and counting, for anyone stupid enough to play for the North!

There's nothing stupid about choosing to play international football. However, it's unrealistic to expect players from a country which rarely qualifies to choose a foreign country which, er, hardly ever qualfies, purely on the grounds that it qualifies slightly more often.

Except with any country, it's a full competitive cap. It could hardly be much clearer

I know what FIFA's rule is. I've suggested repeatedly that there's potential for the IFA to agree a slightly different bilateral deal with FAI. Do you actually read what anyone else posts?

But at least all Irishmen can play for Ireland, not some shabby Brit.outfit

Is that the shabby Brit outfit you've spent pretty much your entire life happily living in?

At least check the facts. With the exception of Lawrenson & Townsend, most of the Diaspora would have no reason to feel English, Scottish or whatever, if only in the main most of their parents were Irish, which even you claim to be. Would you deny them even that?

I don't need to check any facts: it's pretty self-evident that people who are born, grow up, go to school and then live and work in England are likely to feel at least a bit English, as I said. For the umpteenth time, I'm not denying anyone anything. They can be Irish too, whether before the FAI come calling or after.

Nedser

01/08/2010, 9:59 AM

Steady on. Half of your squad are guys who I'd guess feel just a little bit British (having lived all their lives in Britain, quite likely with their British parents).

GR, firstly just to say that you generally come across as a reasonable guy and make relatively balanced comments, but this one is utter rubbish.

First of all to address the "half your squad" part" 20 out of 28 of the latest squad announced were born in Ireland. Of the remaining 8 born outside Ireland, 2 of them were born to 2 Irish parents. One of the 6 qualifying through the "grandfather rule" is McGeady, and whatever you think of him, there is no question he plays for Ireland because he wants to. If he wanted to play for Scotland, he could have. So the vast majority of the squad are genuinely Irish.

Secondly, if you genuinely believe that most Irish people living in Britain feel "just a little bit British", you're quite simply wrong.

Gather round

01/08/2010, 10:23 AM

GR, firstly just to say that you generally come across as a reasonable guy and make relatively balanced comments

Thanks.

but this one is utter rubbish...First of all to address the "half your squad" part" 20 out of 28 of the latest squad announced were born in Ireland. Of the remaining 8 born outside Ireland, 2 of them were born to 2 Irish parents. One of the 6 qualifying through the "grandfather rule"

Apologies, unnecessary exaggeration, Replace 'half' with 'a large proportion'. Recent internationals from Britain (ie, lived pretty much their entire lives there) include Messrs McGeady, McCarthy, Lawrence, St Leger, Westwood, Green. I mean, it's quite a lot.

McGeady, and whatever you think of him, there is no question he plays for Ireland because he wants to

What's your point? I know he wants to play for the South, and the widely quoted reasons why: he fell out with the Scottish FA in a row about a schools or youth game.

So the vast majority of the squad are genuinely Irish

I haven't suggested anyone isn't genuinely Irish, merely that people from Scotland or England are Scottish or English too. At least just a little bit.

Secondly, if you genuinely believe that most Irish people living in Britain feel "just a little bit British", you're quite simply wrong

Speak for them all, do you? I suggested most people not merely living in Britain, but who've spent their entire lives there, birth, school, work, etc. etc. I allowed for people with one Irish grandparent, or four, or any number in between. Ditto ancestors from Britain or anywhere else. It would be a bit odd if they all felt equally non-British, don't ye think?

Mr_Parker

01/08/2010, 10:34 AM

Is Raymond Kennedy in the Orange Order. Was/is his predcessor Boyce in the Orange Order.

To reach high office in the IFA you have to be in the Orange Order.

Yes Kennedy is in the OO, but no Boyce was/is not.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l44/Mr_Parker2006/idiotface1.jpg

Oh and just to prove what an idiot Kennedy is (if anyone hadn't realised it already) this is an interview he did about being in the OO.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l44/Mr_Parker2006/scan0205.jpg

seanfhear

01/08/2010, 11:03 AM

Yes Kennedy is in the OO, but no Boyce was/is not.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l44/Mr_Parker2006/idiotface1.jpg

It is hilarious that the leader of the IFA and an Orangeman took legal action to force players (many from a catholic backround) to turn out for their organisation.

If the IFA were serious about being a genuinely cross community organistion then they would not allow members of the Orange Order to hold any positions within the IFA.

osarusan

01/08/2010, 11:06 AM

It is hilarious that the leader of the IFA and an Orangeman took legal action to force players (many from a catholic backround) to turn out for their organisation.

When did the IFA force players to put on a shirt and walk out onto the pitch?

ArdeeBhoy

01/08/2010, 11:12 AM

There's nothing stupid about choosing to play international football. However, it's unrealistic to expect players from a country which rarely qualifies to choose a foreign country which, er, hardly ever qualfies, purely on the grounds that it qualifies slightly more often.
You mean '"won't", as opposed to "occasionally".....

I know what FIFA's rule is. I've suggested repeatedly that there's potential for the IFA to agree a slightly different bilateral deal with FAI.
Why the FAI even acknowledge the IFA who're now redundant. The former can pick all Irish players, even the ones to be British! But guessing the bigots won't take up the offer!

Is that the shabby Brit outfit you've spent pretty much your entire life happily living in?
Neither of us have lived in the North for years!

I don't need to check any facts: it's pretty self-evident that people who are born, grow up, go to school and then live and work in England are likely to feel at least a bit English, as I said. For the umpteenth time, I'm not denying anyone anything. They can be Irish too, whether before the FAI come calling or after.
And you claim yer not pompous! There's loads of people living in different countries, including Ireland, who don't feel the slightest part of that country. Not all, but many. Certainly a majority of people I've met with foreign roots.

Apologies, unnecessary exaggeration, Replace 'half' with 'a large proportion'. Recent internationals from Britain (ie, lived pretty much their entire lives there) include Messrs McGeady, McCarthy, Lawrence, St Leger, Westwood, Green. I mean, it's quite a lot.
It's some. Look up the word 'Diaspora'.
And then see the IFA are pursuing their own players in a similar manner!

Speak for them all, do you? I suggested most people not merely living in Britain, but who've spent their entire lives there, birth, school, work, etc. etc. I allowed for people with one Irish grandparent, or four, or any number in between. Ditto ancestors from Britain or anywhere else. It would be a bit odd if they all felt equally non-British, don't ye think?
Not at all. Especially if you were a prime example of the Brits! Or are you Irish today??
;)

Gather round

01/08/2010, 11:30 AM

]You mean '"won't", as opposed to "occasionally"...

No, I mean occasionally. Over both the mid-term (last 15 years, say) and long-term (since they started entering international competitions in the 1950s), both Irish sides have qualified only occasionally. But increasing the number of European championship finalists to 24 obviously increases the chance of both qualifying more often in future, as even you've acknowledged.

Why the FAI even acknowledge the IFA who're now redundant. The former can pick all Irish players

Don't be absurd. How are the IFA redundant? They have an international football team to run. Which can still pick all Northern Ireland qualified players. Stop posting nonsense.

There's loads of people living in different countries, including Ireland, who don't feel the slightest part of that country. Not all, but many. Certainly a majority of people I've met with foreign roots

I specifically mentioned- repeatedly- people who'd spent their entire lives living in Britain, with (as per Nedser's detail) quite likely British parents too. Not just anyone living abroad from their country at any point.

seanfhear

01/08/2010, 11:35 AM

When did the IFA force players to put on a shirt and walk out onto the pitch?
They are trying to remove the choice of Irish citizens to choose for whom they wish to play for.

If you cannot see how ridiculous this sort of behaviour is from an organisation that is headed by a member of the sectarian/bigoted orange order then your ridicule barometer needs a service.

ArdeeBhoy

01/08/2010, 11:38 AM

Over both the mid-term (last 15 years, say) and long-term (since they started entering international competitions in the 1950s), both Irish sides have qualified only occasionally.
Yeah, Ireland 4 times in 22 years. The North=Nil in the same time period. Of course it's the same, do the mathS FFS.

How are the IFA redundant? They have an international football team to run. Which can still pick all Northern Ireland qualified players. Stop posting nonsense.
The FA can pick any Irish player, if they're willing! And mind the Hypocrisy!;)

I specifically mentioned- repeatedly- people who'd spent their entire lives living in Britain, with (as per Nedser's detail) quite likely British parents too.
Think you need to speak to a few immigrants to find the real answer!
Lol.

osarusan

01/08/2010, 11:39 AM

They are trying to remove the choice of Irish citizens to choose for whom they wish to play for.

Agreed, but that's not the same as forcing them to play.

Don't get me wrong, I think CAS made the right decision, and I cannot believe the IFA pursued the issue as far as they did, but given the amount of comments on here aimed at the use of the words 'poached', 'nabbed' and so on by media sympathetic to Northern Ireland's case, I think it's fair to point out that the wording can be wrong (deliberately or not) on both sides of the issue.

Gather round

01/08/2010, 11:55 AM

Yeah, Ireland 4 times in 22 years. The North=Nil in the same time period. Of course it's the same, do the mathS FFS

I've already done the math(s). You can change the period counted to emphasise how good/ rubbish teams are, but most people will recognise that both Irish sides have a mediocre record both overall and in the recent past. 16, 20 or 22 years ago isn't much more relevant than 24 or 28 years ago.

The FA can pick any Irish player, if they're willing!

I know! How does this make the IFA redudant?! If nothing else, both FAs are limited by the practicality of there being only 11 places in any given football team.

Think you need to speak to a few immigrants to find the real answer!

All speaking to a few people would tell me is a few largely anecdotal accounts which will likely differ from each other. Not everyone with exclusive or part-Irish ancestry rejects any other possible identity equally. Not that I'm discussing immigrants anyway, all the people I've mentioned have lived in Britain since birth.

Not Brazil

01/08/2010, 12:07 PM

They begged FIFA to change their rules. They begged the CAS to force FIFA to change the rule.

They didn't.

In their ill thought out "strategy" on this issue, the Irish Football Association appealed to FIFA to UPHOLD their rules.

I know - absolutely cringeworthy.

And - we still have some within HQ, and many supporters, who think FIFA's rules are not being upheld.

The strategy of the Irish Football Association on the matter was a complete and utter fcuk up.

Gather round

01/08/2010, 12:08 PM

PM for the Not Brazilian.

Not Brazil

01/08/2010, 12:12 PM

There is an awful lot of Orangemen at the head of the IFA (I would say its pretty much mandatory to be in the Orange Order to achieve high office in the IFA)

That's absolute nonsense.

It says a lot about you though.

seanfhear

01/08/2010, 12:26 PM

That's absolute nonsense.

It says a lot about you though.
Is there or is there not mostly orangemen in high positions within the IFA ?

Mr_Parker

01/08/2010, 12:34 PM

Is there or is there not mostly orangemen in high positions within the IFA ?

Name them.

Not Brazil

01/08/2010, 12:46 PM

Is there or is there not mostly orangemen in high positions within the IFA ?

What " high positions" are you talking about specifically?

Not Brazil

01/08/2010, 12:48 PM

To reach high office in the IFA you have to be in the Orange Order.

Really?

What positions within the IFA require you to be a member of the Orange Order?

ifk101

01/08/2010, 2:13 PM

The strategy of the Irish Football Association on the matter was a complete and utter fcuk up.

The IFA knew they couldn't win the case. Indeed they were perfectly aware that NI born players could represent the FAI for over a decade now. So the question is why they decided to take it all the way to CAS? What were they hoping to achieve?

lopez

01/08/2010, 2:38 PM

That's absolute nonsense.

It says a lot about you though.You've just been given a prime example, so what does that tell us about you? Personally I would have thought, with his name, Mr. Kennedy was a Catholic. Indeed the IFA have had at least one Catholic -Austin Donnelly - as its president.

Personally I think Kennedy has managed to keep his bigoted home views away from work. Normally Orangemen are always trying to keep Catholics on the dole. This man is doing everything in his power to ensure they can't go elsewhere for work. I mean, give the bloke a break!

lopez

01/08/2010, 2:46 PM

Steady on. Half of your squad are guys who I'd guess feel just a little bit British (having lived all their lives in Britain, quite likely with their British parents).

I'm hoping that the FAI pull out the stops with regards to Northern players and maybe the other half might feel British too.

Perfectly balanced chip on either shoulder alert!

Oh dear! Mustn't allude to anyone from the Unionist community being bigots.

lopez

01/08/2010, 2:49 PM

The power of facebook. :D:D:D If only I thought of starting it first. Damn it!

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=68581798456&v=app_2373072738&ref=mf#!/group.php?gid=68581798456&v=wall&ref=mf
I like your one going on about priests and children. That's the one thing I've noticed about a lot of these people. Amnesia and living in a glass house and thowing stones! Leaving aside the poncing of players from England without any Irish connection, then begging to FIFA to change the rules, and then this. I mean have they not heard of the Kincora Boys Home scandal?

Not Brazil

01/08/2010, 3:01 PM

then begging to FIFA to change the rules

They didn't.

They begged FIFA to UPHOLD their rules.

Which FIFA did.

Not Brazil

01/08/2010, 3:06 PM

This man is doing everything in his power to ensure they can't go elsewhere for work. I mean, give the bloke a break!

Kennedy resigned (under pressure) as President of the Irish Football Association early in July.

The post is now being discussed in Orange Halls throughout the United Kingdom, and a secret ballot amongst members of the Orange Institution is to be held.*

*Excluding those from the Republic Of Ireland.

The Fly

01/08/2010, 3:17 PM

Is there or is there not mostly orangemen in high positions within the IFA ?

There is a big difference between there being orangemen within the IFA organisation, and stating that orange order membership is a mandatory requirement to achieve high office within it!

Such a suggestion would be insidious.....to say the least.

Gather round

01/08/2010, 3:19 PM

Oh dear! Mustn't allude to anyone from the Unionist community being bigots

It was more the allusion to irrelevant whataboutery. Anyway, did you enjoy the TV nostalgia of watching Alf Garnett and his chinas dahn yer Hemel manor?

Mr_Parker

01/08/2010, 3:23 PM

Kennedy resigned (under pressure) as President of the Irish Football Association early in July.

Unfortunately he hasn't gone yet and he is still trying to hang on by his fingernails.

lopez

01/08/2010, 3:31 PM

There is a big difference between there being orangemen within the IFA organisation, and stating that orange order membership is a mandatory requirement to achieve high office within it!

Such a suggestion would be insidious.....to say the least.The suggestion that it is a requirement is indeed insidious, but that does not mean that it is not something of a disadvantage on one's CV. Personally I'm shocked that this man was allowed to continue his membership. It's like the head of the FA being a member of the BNP. I know the recently departed one was Jewish but you can see the conflict of interests here. Can you see the mixed message this gives off with 'Football for all' etc?

Razors left peg

01/08/2010, 3:34 PM

lopez

01/08/2010, 3:36 PM

It was more the allusion to irrelevant whataboutery. Anyway, did you enjoy the TV nostalgia of watching Alf Garnett and his chinas dahn yer Hemel manor?Quite funny. And clever in that it points out that Alf's racism eases as the 'non-white's' wealth and status increases - he speaks fondly of his Indian sergeant major from his army days - while his long-suffering wife and lefty, Scouser, son-in-law's racism explodes when they find out she's slept with Kenny Lynch. Also when Alf has a trip on some LSD he reckons all black people are 'salt of the earth' and they should let more of them into the country before he happily imagines himself turning black. One for any 'Film Studies' degree me thinks.

lopez

01/08/2010, 3:39 PM

Would I be right in saying that Niall McGinn shows that there might not necessarily be a mass exodus of players from the north on the nationalist side? I remember hearing a while back that he never had any interest in playing for the ROI. Would he be the exception rather than the rule?Probably there won't. Places in the ROI side are limited. Then there are other considerations, like how the IFA coaches treat the players, as well as how the nationalist player himself views the south. It's a storm in a tea cup really and a total overreaction from let's say the more sensitive side of the Unionist community. The wise heads rightly claim that they could have kept a lid on this by just keeping the mouths shut.

Not Brazil

01/08/2010, 4:52 PM

It's like the head of the FA being a member of the BNP. I know the recently departed one was Jewish but you can see the conflict of interests here. Can you see the mixed message this gives off with 'Football for all' etc?

Obviously you've forgotten the colours and significance of the National flag of the Republic Of Ireland.

Ah well.

lopez

01/08/2010, 7:19 PM

Obviously you've forgotten the colours and significance of the National flag of the Republic Of Ireland.

Ah well.And what significance is that then? That the Orange represents a bigoted, sectarian organisation? Or the 20% of the population of Ireland that are non-Catholic Christians?

Not Brazil

01/08/2010, 7:43 PM

Or the 20% of the population of Ireland that are non-Catholic Christians?

Why orange?

What has orange got to do with "non Catholic Christians"?

PS.

What is the President of the Republic Of Ireland playing at, hosting an annual 12th July reception at Aras an Uachtarain for this bigoted, sectarian organisation?

I can only think that she believes that "unity" means cherishing all the children of the nation - including those pesky unionist types.

How silly of her.

ArdeeBhoy

01/08/2010, 7:49 PM

I've already done the math(s). You can change the period counted to emphasise how good/ rubbish teams are, but most people will recognise that both Irish sides have a mediocre record both overall.
Ok, not that's there's any recognition, but Ireland have been in the play-offs for most Finals at the least, up to '04, whereas the North have been sh*te for at least double than period. Even Dan Quayle could work that one out....

If nothing else, both FAs are limited by the practicality of there being only 11 places in any given football team.
Except, if they were willing ,the FAI could pick 11 uncapped Prods/ 'unionists' for the Irish soccer team.
The paranoid IFA wouldn't do!

Not everyone with exclusive or part-Irish ancestry rejects any other possible identity equally. Not that I'm discussing immigrants anyway, all the people I've mentioned have lived in Britain since birth.
Yes, except for the people you refer to are 95% Irish born, as in the parents.
Concentrate on the actual facts....and real people!!

ArdeeBhoy

01/08/2010, 7:55 PM

Regardless of what McAleese does, everyone who's half-wise knows the OO operate from a fundamentally bigoted standpoint. But it's hardly news.
As for their relationship with the IFA, so what?? Not many take them especially seriously either.

Not Brazil

01/08/2010, 8:08 PM

As for their relationship with the IFA, so what??

What "relationship" is that?

lopez

01/08/2010, 9:11 PM

ArdeeBhoy

01/08/2010, 9:19 PM

Sounds rather more paranoid, senor....

Not Brazil

01/08/2010, 9:32 PM

Sounds rather more paranoid, senor....

If your definition of "paranoid" is me praising a Belfast born and raised woman, President of the Republic of Ireland, for extending the hand of friendship to her fellow Irishmen and women who happen to be members of the Orange Order (and in so doing, demonstrating true republican principles, and a real spirit of reconciliation), then I suggest you need to revisit your myopic little dictionary.

janeymac

01/08/2010, 9:43 PM

Why orange?

What has orange got to do with "non Catholic Christians"?

PS.

What is the President of the Republic Of Ireland playing at, hosting an annual 12th July reception at Aras an Uachtarain for this bigoted, sectarian organisation?

I can only think that she believes that "unity" means cherishing all the children of the nation - including those pesky unionist types.

How silly of her.

Who is this President of the Republic of Ireland that you speak of? Would it be the President of Ireland, President McAleese? Surely you have been hanging around here long enough to know the proper name of the country you are cyber visiting.

The 12th July happens to be the anniversary of the death of Douglas Hyde, the first President of Ireland, who was a Protestant. This year was the 150th Anniversary of his birth. Why wouldn't people from all over the island come and celebrate mark this occasion.

As regards the sectarian Orange Order - they sure as heck are not going to learn anything new marching up and down the Garvahy Road. They might learn a bit of tolerance & understanding down this neck of the wood so fair play to them for coming.

Not Brazil

01/08/2010, 10:04 PM

Who is this President of the Republic of Ireland that you speak of? Would it be the President of Ireland, President McAleese? Surely you have been hanging around here long enough to know the proper name of the country you are cyber visiting.

Strange that Irishmen like me cannot vote for who is the President Of Ireland.

Anyway, she must be paranoid.

"Now we must build a new culture of Both, each accepting that there are different perspectives and practices, each patient with the other as we get to know each other better in a growing spirit of understanding and outreach. It is possible to be both Irish and British, possible to be both Orange and Irish. We face into a landscape of new possibilities and understandings,"

AB will have a fit.:D