Player eligibility row

[ArdeeBhoy]

To be fair Dtm, in this case yer banging yer head against the proverbial brick wall, or is it 'walls' ?
:)

[lopez]

Far be it from me to question someone's identity after spending the last fortnight rejoicing at Iniesta's goal, but I just don't get this 100% Irish from you GR. I mean your Irishness is clearly subservient to your Britishness, something, unless you've changed, is your nationality. It's Irish purely on a regional level - see Serbian in Bosnia and Croatia - whereas for the rest of us - even my 100% Irish and 100% Spanish (sic.) - this is not down to regionality but nationality.

I don't know what you're getting at here. Normally Unionists from the North are always banging on about how loyal, British, love the German Lady and her brood etc, that the rest of their nation is bored rigid from it. I suspect this is more a case of what you call up north 'f*ckaboutery', trying to legitimise the NI team amongst Nationalists with claims of [an albeit alternative] Irishness, when as dantheman points out, everything it points to it being British.

[gspain]

Far be it from me to question someone's identity after spending the last fortnight rejoicing at Iniesta's goal, but I just don't get this 100% Irish from you GR. I mean your Irishness is clearly subservient to your Britishness, something, unless you've changed, is your nationality. It's Irish purely on a regional level - see Serbian in Bosnia and Croatia - whereas for the rest of us - even my 100% Irish and 100% Spanish (sic.) - this is not down to regionality but nationality.

I don't know what you're getting at here. Normally Unionists from the North are always banging on about how loyal, British, love the German Lady and her brood etc, that the rest of their nation is bored rigid from it. I suspect this is more a case of what you call up north 'f*ckaboutery', trying to legitimise the NI team amongst Nationalists with claims of [an albeit alternative] Irishness, when as dantheman points out, everything it points to it being British.

Guy beside at Germany v Serbia in full Serbia gear was telling me he was from Sarajevo. Another person nearby started with "Isn't that in ..." and I thought it best to stick to
discussing football.

[Gather round]

No its not a zero sum game, its a 100% sum game. 100%=whole, one complete unit. Really basic stuff. Did you pass the 11+?

Er, no. I've explained repeatedly why it's perfectly possible to be 100% Irish and 100% British. If you don't like that, fine, if you refuse to acknowledge it, all that reveals is your narrow-mindedness. I failed the 11 plus, actually, mainly due to illness- I was only able to sit one of the two papers. But don't worry, I managed to pass O and A Level maths comfortably enough before leaving school. Incidentally, do you think everyone who failed the 11-plus is innumerate, ridicule them in public and so on? I'd be wary sitting next to you at the next primary school reunion.


Would you consider a transsexual to be 100% man and 100 woman?

I've never actually thought about it. There isn't necessarily an exact parallel between shared nationality and shared sexuality, is there?


We're both Irish, the rest of your sentence is of no importance

It's important- do you mean relevant?- only in that it answers previous points by you and others.


a) There is nothing obviously in Ireland about the Village

Are you on drugs? It's been obviously in Ireland since it was first built in the 19th. Its site has been in Ireland since we broke away from the Eurasian landmass and Gondwanaland.

Unless, of course, you mean 'it isn't obviously in the Republic of Ireland or bedecked in tricolors'. Well, quite.

BTW, is there any need for that boldface block capitals thing? I mean, with your obvious interest in primary educational standards, you must realise it looks a bit remedial?


I just don't get this 100% Irish from you GR. I mean your Irishness is clearly subservient to your Britishness, something, unless you've changed, is your nationality

Hola, senor. I'm 100% Irish because it suits me, as it always has. Rest assured, it isn't subservient- as oft-repeated up-thread. I haven't changed any nationality, I'm quite content there.


It's Irish purely on a regional level - see Serbian in Bosnia and Croatia

Hardly an exact parallel, is it? Bosnia and Croatia aren't in Serbia, Northern Ireland is obviously in Ireland. But to repeat, I'm not being exclusive here- I've no problem with anyone from outside Ireland being Irish too.

Obviously NI isn't a sovereign country, it's part of the bigger British state. So if you want to distinguish between national Irish and 'regional' Irish, no offence taken. Or even- as the other NI-supporting regulars on here have pointed out, if you distinguish between 'lifelong Irish with centuries of purely Irish ancestry' on the one hand, and people who aren't actually from Ireland/ have barely or never lived in it, on the other. It all starts to get unnecessary complex, and potentially upsetting. Much easier just to accept that everyone from Ireland (defined as broadly as you like) is equally Irish, surely? What's not to like?


I don't know what you're getting at here

Er, that I'm 100% Irish, just as you are if you want to be. I mean, that's all I'm saying in most posts on this thread, given that, as I've made clear, I have no problems with Darron Gibson, Marc Wilson, Shane Duffy and co. playing for the Republic.


Normally Unionists from the North are always banging on about how loyal, British, love the German Lady and her brood etc, that the rest of their nation is bored rigid from it

Come on, this is an exaggerated stereotype. Hardly anyone goes on like that except in vox-pops to camera on the 12th, and similar. But even if they did, I don't. Mrs Windsor has one German great-grandparent, by the way. You're likely to be as Portuguese as she is a Kraut.


I suspect this is more a case of...trying to legitimise the NI team amongst Nationalists with claims of [an albeit alternative] Irishness

No, not at all. I don't feel I need to legitimise it, it's perfectly legitimate to me. If someone like Dan the Man was a player, I'd tell him to go and play for the South if he didn't accept that legitimacy. As I've said repeatedly up-thread, bye bye.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ha ha, what a load of old BS.

Hypocrisy or Irony ( not to mention the usual Amnesia!) ??
You decide!

[lopez]

Hola, senor. I'm 100% Irish because it suits me, as it always has. Rest assured, it isn't subservient- as oft-repeated up-thread. I haven't changed any nationality, I'm quite content there.
You can feel part of Gary Byrd's Chocolate Crew from Alkebu for all I care. But even you can distinguish the difference between nationality and any other form of identity you want. Of course you can feel both but I don't think you see both in the same light.

Hardly an exact parallel, is it? Bosnia and Croatia aren't in Serbia, Northern Ireland is obviously in Ireland. But to repeat, I'm not being exclusive here- I've no problem with anyone from outside Ireland being Irish too.
OK. Maybe one of those local born fans waving Spanish flags in Barcelona and Bilbao singing 'Yo soy Espanol, Espanol, Espanol'. If my own Spanish family experience is anything to go by, you can hold your own regionality (nationality for some) within the state, even to a total hostility to other members of that state and still consider yourself a national of that state above all else. You can be 100% Basque or 100% Catalan and still be 100% Spanish, but your nationality being Spanish above the other two relegates your Catalanism or Basqueness.

Obviously NI isn't a sovereign country, it's part of the bigger British state. So if you want to distinguish between national Irish and 'regional' Irish, no offence taken. Or even- as the other NI-supporting regulars on here have pointed out, if you distinguish between 'lifelong Irish with centuries of purely Irish ancestry' on the one hand, and people who aren't actually from Ireland/ have barely or never lived in it, on the other.
You don't need to concern yourself with those idiots. Who do I listen to assess whether I'm Irish? Irish acts of parliament - 'Under the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Acts, 1956 to 2004, a person who was born outside Ireland is automatically an Irish citizen by descent if one of that person's parents was an Irish citizen who was born in Ireland.' :p (source Department of Foreign Affairs) - or some bar stool tool? The fact that I have only an Irish passport and no other suggests that I have no other allegiance to another country.

It all starts to get unnecessary complex, and potentially upsetting. Much easier just to accept that everyone from Ireland (defined as broadly as you like) is equally Irish, surely? What's not to like?
Well if we did then we get to imposing our Identity on you etc. It's surely up to the individual to make his decision about what he or she is?

Er, that I'm 100% Irish, just as you are if you want to be. I mean, that's all I'm saying in most posts on this thread, given that, as I've made clear, I have no problems with Darron Gibson, Marc Wilson, Shane Duffy and co. playing for the Republic.
We know YOU don't.


Come on, this is an exaggerated stereotype. Hardly anyone goes on like that except in vox-pops to camera on the 12th, and similar. But even if they did, I don't. Mrs Windsor has one German great-grandparent, by the way. You're likely to be as Portuguese as she is a Kraut.
No Portuguese in me, mate. I think the last time I saw this was on a programme about the monarchy on ITV upto 10 years ago, but I still feel from the overt and popular declarations of loyalty to Britain and it's first family suggest it's far from rare.

No, not at all. I don't feel I need to legitimise it, it's perfectly legitimate to me. If someone like Dan the Man was a player, I'd tell him to go and play for the South if he didn't accept that legitimacy. As I've said repeatedly up-thread, bye bye.
Again that's what I want too. The individual player to choose who to play for their country.

[lopez]

Guy beside at Germany v Serbia in full Serbia gear was telling me he was from Sarajevo. Another person nearby started with "Isn't that in ..." and I thought it best to stick to
discussing football.Or from Melbourne? Good call on sticking to football. Got a similar sort of observation after the game in Aarhus a couple of years ago by some Danish woman asking why there were 'Belfast' flags when that is in Northern Ireland. And this is a country with the highest number of degrees per population in Europe.

[third policeman]

Without ignoring the other posts, I would highlight a theme that has been repeated. Its impossible to be 100% irish and 100% British.
That simply makes no sense. In that case I'm 200% irish!



Well for once I am with GR on this one. I have a lot of friends in NI in both traditions and I think that a lot of Unionists do regard themselves as 100% Irish and 100% British and this is not necessarily a contradiction. In the same way many Welsh, Scottish and English "unionists" would be able to square the same circle. From a nationalist perspective there is a tendency to define Irishness as something incompatible with Britishness but for a Unionist this is simply not the case. They can reconcile Irishness and Britishness in exactly the same way that a Dubliner can be 100% a Dub and 100% Irish. One identity contains and transcends the other. If there were ever to be a United Ireland it would require Irish nationalists to radically extend their definition of Irish to contain / embrace the Britishness which is unquestionably a significant part of the heritage and culture of this island.

[janeymac]

Despite having been to Cyprus found there was little evidence or mention of the division,which is also religiously (Orthodox cf. Islam) as well as nationality-based.
Though others probably know far better and to the legitimacy of any Turkish claim, other than just its proximity.


Still, they are differentiated as Greek/Turkish Cypriots and I would expect that being culturally Islamic/Christian has a lot to do with why they chose sides in the first place.


As for India and its 'sub-continent', that's an extremely complex case. Suffice to say that India itself is an amalgamation of 28 smaller countries, now based around an official federation.
The creation of Bangladesh and Pakistan, as you say aren't exactly foolproof as there's still at least a mere 100 million + Muslims in India.
Certainly with Pakistan, it was based on areas where Muslims had a majority but still divided whole states like Gujarat which doesn't sit comfortably personally.
Also would like to see an independent Kashmir, but even assuming India & Pakistan would let this happen, how would any small country feel being a buffer between two nuclear armed nations.

100m is still only 10% of the population of India and the caste system is probably more of a problem than anything else (muslim being one grouping at the bottom of the pile). I expect India would have found it very difficult to function if it had the 330m (approx) muslims who now live in Pakistan & Bangledesh.

Mainland China has about 48 different nationalities - but 92% of the population are from the Han ethnic group. Thats probably why China is held together - one large majority.

[janeymac]

In 1953, maybe. Not now. I expect the Kim Jong Il regime to collapse in the next few years, but integrating all Koreans into one country after that is likely to be unbeleivably difficult. Imagine the reunification of Germany magnified 10 or 100 times.

I think the unification of Germany went pretty well over all, considering. I would also think the Nth Koreans are very 'biddable' and if the Sth Koreans want them, I don't see that it will be a huge problem.


India/ Pakistan is too large scale to summarise quickly. I spent a lot of time in Cyprus in the early 80s (my parents were working there); there was a difficult choice, particularly for the Turks. Many wanted general economic prosperity that might have followed from reuniting the country- but more feared losing land, property etc. to previous Greek owners. So the majority of Turks settled for the theoretically independent Kibris (in practice an autonomous region of mainland Turkey). They just didn't want to be part of an etnhic-Greek dominated Cyprus nation.

Surely there were assurances made that they wouldn't lose their property? Seems to be more like a cultural clash of muslim v christian, despite the obvious prosperity a united island within the EU would have given them (back then anyway!).


Indeed. There are broadly similar (although hugely larger in scale) differences between different branches/ sects/ tribal allegiances of Islam within Pakistan, for example. Many people in that country would disagree with you that the 1940s settlement has generally worked well.

It has worked out better for India without having to deal with approx. 400m muslim in their state.


I was merely answering Fly's point that NI has no indigenous unique language (with the implication that it is somehow lesser in status than Wales, Scotland etc). A moment's thought would show other examples in nearby Europe which basically contradict this idea.

Wales & Scotland were traditionally countries (Principality & Kingdom) NI was part of the Kingdom of Ireland. Their populations are largely protestant as well (i.e., something to be rated on the same level as having a common language).

[janeymac]

Well for once I am with GR on this one. I have a lot of friends in NI in both traditions and I think that a lot of Unionists do regard themselves as 100% Irish and 100% British and this is not necessarily a contradiction. In the same way many Welsh, Scottish and English "unionists" would be able to square the same circle. From a nationalist perspective there is a tendency to define Irishness as something incompatible with Britishness but for a Unionist this is simply not the case. They can reconcile Irishness and Britishness in exactly the same way that a Dubliner can be 100% a Dub and 100% Irish. One identity contains and transcends the other. If there were ever to be a United Ireland it would require Irish nationalists to radically extend their definition of Irish to contain / embrace the Britishness which is unquestionably a significant part of the heritage and culture of this island.

I can't understand why NI unionists don't define themselves as British-Irish/ Scots-Irish in a similar way to how some prominent Irish citizens define themselves as Anglo-Irish (i.e., Garech de Brun - founder of Claddagh Records and son of Lord Oranmore). He seems to have no problem with his identity. Same with Henry Mountcharles and numerous others here like the Knight of Glin, Guinness family. They all seem to regard themselves as being Irish with an English heritage. I really can't see how they could be regarded as being any worse or better to those who don't have such a heritage and have as much a say in this country as anyone else.

[seanfhear]

I am a 100% Mayoish

And a 100% Irish if that is in any way helpful. (I am sure that ye do know that I am trying to do y'ere heads in though)

[DannyInvincible]

An articulate, yet centrally flawed, piece by a unionist blogger and commentator, and OWC poster, in the Belfast Telegraph.
...
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/will-football-score-an-own-goal-on-nationality-issue-14882867.html

Indeed. I'd meant to write a bit in response to this piece a few days ago, but only getting around to posting it now.

The argument is bizarre and doesn't stand up to scrutiny at all once you break through the intentionally cryptic nonsense. It possesses a false sense of sophistication when the truth is it's just as insincere, contradictory and stifling as most of the other arguments offered in favour of the IFA's stance.

The fact of the matter is that his argument doesn't challenge FIFA's interpretation at all. Nor does it actually attempt to. Rather, the piece is a pointless and confused attempt to win cheap political points and disingenuously position the IFA on the moral high-ground. It amounts to a few paragraphs of creaming himself over the prospect of Sinn Féin politicians having to admit they might actually be British. So much for keeping politics out of football then…

He assumes FIFA could care less about the rhetoric of nationalist politicians, or even the hallowed "spirit" of the GFA. He's also forgetting that the CAS proceedings are confidential; even if the FAI were to argue that playing for NI infers British nationality, whilst playing for Ireland infers Irish nationality, and that Irish nationality cannot make you eligible to play for NI, as is quite obviously the case, nobody would ever know anyway. So I doubt the FAI could care less about arguing such a point either. Although, I don’t see why they would be afraid to argue the point anyway. One thing for certain, however, is that CAS will not be afraid to confront the truth, whether the FAI or FIFA even argue the point or not. It can't fail to enter into CAS's decision-making process as it's so patently obvious that playing for Northern Ireland is to exercise a right to British citizenship whilst playing for Ireland is to exercise a right to Irish citizenship.


The FAI in Dublin, in recent years, has set about targeting talented players from a nationalist background, who represent the IFA's underage teams.

Yadda, yadda, yadda…


Having represented the IFA at schoolboy, U17 and U19 level, though, he was persuaded to defect to the FAI.

Is there any proof Kearns had to be persuaded, never mind the fact that persuasion isn't the same thing as coercion anyway, no matter how much certain NI fans would like to attach such connotations to its usage.


Careful reading of FIFA's statutes shows that, if the FAI position is upheld, it denies the right of players born in Northern Ireland to consider themselves Irish only.

Duly noted. ;)


If the FAI wants to take its pick of players born in the north, irrespective of any other criteria, it must rely on an inference that they possess dual nationality and are British citizens, whether they like it or not.

But they do possess such, don't they? I don't see the point in denying an obvious reality, no matter what your politics are on the matter or how much you might dislike something. In any sphere, it's unlikely you'll overcome something by pretending it doesn't exist. Similarly, I don't see why it would be a weakening of any nationalist position to face up to that reality. You can just as easily oppose it. Anyway, back on point, there's merely no obligation to identify as British. And, unless a player wishes to play for Northern Ireland, there's no need to exercise that nationality either.


Currently a player who carries an Irish passport can use it as proof of nationality, if he plays for a Northern Ireland team.

This is surely quite an outrageous claim. That's an IFA policy, which to the best of my knowledge permits Northern Ireland players to represent them with Irish passports. For the purpose of satisfying FIFA's rules, I can’t imagine, say, Conor Clifford of Chelsea waltzing into Windsor Park with an Irish passport and this alone proving him eligible to play for Northern Ireland. In the instance of which Polley speaks, the Irish passport is nothing more than a proof of identity and, presumably, place of birth, which along with other documents, such as ones signifying parents' place of birth or whatever, might make a player eligible to represent Northern Ireland. Indeed, a northern-born player might hold only an Irish passport and may self-identify as Irish, as he is completely entitled to do, but for official purposes, and as per FIFA's rules, any time he plays for Northern Ireland he is playing for a British team and exercising British citizenship.

Irish nationality simply doesn’t permit you to play for more than one country. To point out how ridiculous the thought is, there's no question, for example, that Robbie Keane qualifies to play for us under article 15 and not article 16, which is the rule that would apply if Owen Polley’s wild claims were correct.


A few years ago nationalist politicians justly fought a suggestion from FIFA that a footballer could be compelled to produce a British passport in order to confirm eligibility.

Not sure what the relevance of this is. I thought Owen was trying to keep petty poltical squabbles out of this…


to the letter of UK law, everyone from Northern Ireland possesses British citizenship unless it is renounced

And with that startling admission, in contradiction of pretty much everything else he'd been trying to claim up to this point, the whole argument collapses in on itself. Good job, Owen. Cheers.


the IFA, quite rightly, does not require any of its players to acknowledge British citizenship or carry a UK passport.

As seemingly honourable as that is, I'm pretty sure, however, that FIFA do require that any player who lines out for Northern Ireland is in possession of British citizenship.


The CAS can't rule for the FAI without accepting that nationalist players, choosing to play for Northern Ireland, are automatically British, whether or not they claim that nationality. That would run counter to the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement.

I don’t know why Owen Polley thinks CAS could care about ruling against what he perceives to be the "spirit" of the GFA. I can't believe that's even a serious point. CAS deal with written rules; not "spirit" and other such wishy-washy concepts.


There are numerous valid objections to the FAI's strategy. Is it ethical for a neighbouring association, on friendly terms with the IFA, to poach young players after they benefit from considerable coaching and investment in Northern Ireland? Is it right to target players from one community background?

It mightn't sound so unethical if he was to cease with the misrepresentational spin. I heard that deceit was another ethically-objectionable vice in which to engage...


Requiring young nationalists to acknowledge British nationality, if they are to represent the Northern Ireland football team, is a fundamentally illiberal notion.

Hmm… In contrast to "the letter of UK law" under which "everyone from Northern Ireland possesses British citizenship unless it is renounced"? It's either one or the other, Mr. Polley. I think the fundamentally illiberal notion here, however, is attempting to dictate to an Irish national that he ought not to be allowed represent his country, as much twisting things to make it look otherwise occurs.


Indeed, if the logic were extended further, participation in all Northern Ireland's teams, institutions and the Northern Irish identity itself would depend on an acceptance of Britishness, with Irishness the exclusive preserve of the Republic. That is a recipe for segregation, rather than sharing.

Northern Irish identity is a British identity, though. Recipe for segregation or not, this is the legal fact of the matter.


The only thing of note is the poaching>grabbing evolution. Where will it end? Raping? Genocide?

Sure the FAI have moved onto "raids" now, didn't you know?...

[DannyInvincible]

Northern Irish identity is a British identity, though. Recipe for segregation or not, this is the legal fact of the matter.

In furtherance of this point, seeing as Owen was keen to raise the idea of "participation in all Northern Ireland's teams, institutions and the Northern Irish identity itself", and to use an example I feel to be more indicative than anecdotal, check out the nationality requirements for any Northern Ireland civil service position. The job specification will usually feature something along the lines of the following:


Applicants must be either:
(i) A UK national; or
(ii) A Commonwealth citizen; or
(iii) A British Protected Person; or
(iv) An EEA national; or
(v) A Swiss National; or
(vi) A person who is not an EEA or Swiss national, but is a family member of
an EEA national who has moved to the UK from another EEA Member
State for an approved purpose.

As is patently obvious, UK citizenship is accorded primacy. There is no specific mention given to Irish citizenship despite it supposedly being part and parcel of Northern Irish life and identity, or whatever Polley is trying to claim. Irish citizenship, rather, falls under category (iv). You might find something like this, then, in the annex:


'EEA National' means a national of one of the following countries:
Austria France Liechtenstein Romania
Belgium Germany Lithuania Slovakia
Bulgaria Greece Luxembourg Slovenia
Cyprus Hungary Malta Spain
Czech Republic Iceland Netherlands Sweden
Denmark Ireland Norway United Kingdom
Estonia Italy Poland
Finland Latvia Portugal

Clearly then, Irish nationality is not viewed in anyway as being the local nationality of Northern Ireland, or however one wants to put it. It is set on the same pedestal as the nationalities of all European Economic Area member states. This would signify that it is "the exclusive preserve of the Republic", at least in an official capacity. It is set on the same pedestal as, say, French nationality, which is the exclusive preserve of France. We all know this perfectly well anyway, as does Owen Polley (MA in Codology). Irish nationality is channelled through the Irish state; not through the UK state. Likewise, there's no office in Belfast handing out Irish passports to the best of my knowledge. Surely that is, once again, indicative of Irish nationality being viewed as a "foreign" one.

[Predator]

Thanks Danny for bringing the thread back on topic somewhat!



The argument is bizarre and doesn't stand up to scrutiny at all once you break through the intentionally cryptic nonsense.It would certainly be interesting if Owen Polley decided to engage the criticism of his debate here (where criticism of his contention is not met with 'robust moderation'). I mean, there does appear to be an air of cynicism in the article and if I remember correctly, Owen once disingenuously talked of 'playing the tolerant card'. Spin-doctor?


Yadda, yadda, yadda…As you mentioned to EG in one of his rants about the so-called 'snatching' of players, it truly is difficult to take a person seriously when they come out with this nonsense.


And with that startling admission, in contradiction of pretty much everything else he'd been trying to claim up to this point, the whole argument collapses in on itself. Good job, Owen. Cheers.Implosion extraordinaire.

[DannyInvincible]

'playing the tolerant card'

That says it all really.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I've explained repeatedly why it's perfectly possible to be 100% Irish and 100% British. If you don't like that, fine, if you refuse to acknowledge it, all that reveals is your narrow-mindedness. I failed the 11 plus, actually, mainly due to illness
Incidentally, do you think everyone who failed the 11-plus is innumerate, ridicule them in public and so on?
Unless, of course, you mean 'it isn't obviously in the Republic of Ireland or bedecked in tricolors'. Well, quite.

BTW, is there any need for that boldface block capitals thing? I mean, with your obvious interest in primary educational standards, you must realise it looks a bit remedial?
Except that you don't even accept the basic mathematical precept, not withstanding TP's interjection below, of any single entity amounting to more than 100%.
With such a fundamental lack of understanding of this concept it's unsurprising any response is liable to ridicule, especially when the person they're dealing with, to put in your own unique parlance, 'looks a bit remedial'!


Obviously NI isn't a sovereign country, it's part of the bigger British state.
So if you want to distinguish between national Irish and 'regional' Irish, no offence taken.
Or even- as the other NI-supporting regulars on here have pointed out, if you distinguish between 'lifelong Irish with centuries of purely Irish ancestry' on the one hand, and people who aren't actually from Ireland/ have barely or never lived in it, on the other.
It all starts to get unnecessary complex, and potentially upsetting. Much easier just to accept that everyone from Ireland (defined as broadly as you like) is equally Irish, surely?
Indeed, for anyone who takes Irish citizenship.
We don't see you or much more importantly, vast swathes of unionists taking the Irish citizenship open to them. If they want to continue being Brits, fine up to a point, but then they belong (& want to) to a different nation, as even you may have worked out??



I'm 100% Irish, because it suits me, as it always has. I haven't changed any nationality, I'm quite content there.
I've no problem with anyone outside Ireland being Irish too.
Er, that I'm 100% Irish, just as you are if you want to be.

Big of you to deem so. Besides addressing the highly patronising tone and issue of any British citizenship, you do have a problem with people from 'outside Ireland being Irish', as consistently ridiculing the members of Irish squads over many years who had the temerity to be born outside the 26 counties. Despite them being eligible as Irish citizens and members of the Diaspora.
A policy now increasingly exploited by a certain association in the North! Gross hypocrisy (again) by certain individuals in my book.


Come on, this is an exaggerated stereotype. Mrs Windsor has one German great-grandparent, by the way.
Hardly, plenty of English people as you well know are happy to play along. It may have become diluted in the last half-century, but prior to that royal family had plenty of direct German blood links. Or perhaps you don't recognise the German Diaspora either!
;)


As I've said repeatedly up-thread, bye bye.
Given your repetitive parroting of certain flawed mantras, it probably would be a good thing if you did....


Well for once I am with GR on this one. I have a lot of friends in NI in both traditions and I think that a lot of Unionists do regard themselves as 100% Irish and 100% British and this is not necessarily a contradiction. In the same way many Welsh, Scottish and English "unionists" would be able to square the same circle.
From a nationalist perspective there is a tendency to define Irishness as something incompatible with Britishness but for a Unionist this is simply not the case. They can reconcile Irishness and Britishness in exactly the same way that a Dubliner can be 100% a Dub and 100% Irish. One identity contains and transcends the other.
If there were ever to be a United Ireland it would require Irish nationalists to radically extend their definition of Irish to contain / embrace the Britishness which is unquestionably a significant part of the heritage and culture of this island.

Definitely acknowledge the concept, which you've far more succinctly summarised than the other waffle lover.

However, would similarly argue that certainly most unionists, at least in public (or I admit, when driven to make a choice) still see themselves as 'British'. Which I suppose is understandable, as you're not going to see a rapid change in this respect.
But would argue runs contrary to the argument you put forward as they would argue, in my experience one identity makes them somehow 'superior' to the alternative.
And even someone who claims to be a '100% this' & '100% that', would question their integrity other than to spout cliches!

Lastly have no problem with Britain's questionable past being acknowledged and even being included as part of Ireland's culture, but look how the unionists currently do this by lauding Cromwell, King Billy, The British Army and even Israel, FFS!

Nationalists are partly responsible for the current extreme definitions, but as much in response to the extremes defined elsewhere.
However,more optimistically perhaps, have met a handful of Prods in more recent times whose basic 'philosophy' on this matter was, we 'Don't care who runs the north' though no more enthusiastic about Ireland or Britain!

Oh and what jm said about the 'English' Irish.


100m is still only 10% of the population of India and the caste system is probably more of a problem than anything else (muslim being one grouping at the bottom of the pile).
I expect India would have found it very difficult to function if it had the 330m (approx) muslims who now live in Pakistan & Bangledesh.

Mainland China has about 48 different nationalities - but 92% of the population are from the Han ethnic group. Thats probably why China is held together - one large majority.

You're probably right about all those Muslims in India, that said many have lived there peaceably and the division of places like the Punjab and Gujarat were entirely arbitrary. Also as Pakistan has found to its cost, the problem of extreme militancy has just been diverted elsewhere.

As for China, that's held together more by the autocratic stamp of state communism, far more than any ethnic solidarity!

[osarusan]

Except that you don't even accept the basic mathematical precept, not withstanding TP's interjection below, of any single entity amounting to more than 100%.

With this 'precept' in mind, I spoke to a colleague today, who has an Irish father and Canadian mother, and who has spent roughly half her life in each country. When I asked if she felt more one nationality than the other, she immediately said no, she felt equally of both. When I asked her she felt 100% Irish and Canadian, she thought about it for a while, and carefully replied that she didn't feel less than 100% Irish or 100% Canadian, specifying that she felt no less Canadian or Irish than people who had parents solely of those countries, and who had always lived there.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fine. So she's around 50% Irish and 50% Canadian, but so what?
You have to consider she's more Canadian than most Irish residents and vice versa when in Canada.

[osarusan]

I think it's time for you to reconsider your stance that nationality is a single entity which cannot go over 100% in any circumstance.

In her case, she has two separate nationalities, and doesn't feel less than 100% of either of them.

[ArdeeBhoy]

That's as maybe.
But no matter what an individual feels, until we live in an entirely transitory world, people of mixed heritage are just that. They belong to more than one nation or culture, which makes them different (and more unique for now?) than the vast majority of people who've just resided in one place or culture.
And still contend that no-one can be more than a 100% of anything. Except perhaps a Siamese twin....of mixed heritage??

[Gather round]

But even you can distinguish the difference between nationality and any other form of identity you want

I've no problem distinguishing.


Of course you can feel both but I don't think you see both in the same light

I don't- contrary to what you keep insisting- see one as secondary or subservient to the other.


You can be 100% Basque or 100% Catalan and still be 100% Spanish, but your nationality being Spanish above the other two relegates your Catalanism or Basqueness

I don't see that it necessarily does. It might for your great-uncle Redondo, that's fine.


Who do I listen to assess whether I'm Irish?

No need to be so defensive. No-one is suggesting you're not Irish. You don't need to listen to anyone for reassurance.


Well if we did then we get to imposing our Identity on you etc

How can you impose your Irish identity on me? I already have an Irish identity.


I still feel from the overt and popular declarations of loyalty to Britain and it's first family suggest it's far from rare

That's Britain for you- it's pretty keen on royalty as a means of government. NI isn't really any keener on Brenda and her kin than Scotland, Wales or any part of England. Even the SNP don't want to get rid of the monarchy.


Got a similar sort of observation after the game in Aarhus a couple of years ago by some Danish woman asking why there were 'Belfast' flags when that is in Northern Ireland. And this is a country with the highest number of degrees per population in Europe

Is this a joke? Seems a fair question to me. You don't seriously expect a Dane- however well-educated the population there- to be an expert on nationality issues in Belfast. Particularly when NI hasn't featured regularly in European news media for a decade or more. Do you think people in Ireland are au fait with the intricacies of Scandinavian government? Almost certainly not- most would struggle to pinpoint any Danish city outside Copenhagen, or think Aarhus is an early hit by Madness.


One identity contains and transcends the other

Perhaps, but equally they may sit in parallel, or overlap.


If there were ever to be a United Ireland it would require Irish nationalists to radically extend their definition of Irish to contain / embrace the Britishness which is unquestionably a significant part of the heritage and culture of this island

I suspect if this notional united Ireland ever happened, it would be because the previous unionists had lost interest in their link with Britain. So maybe nationalists wouldn't need to bother. But more immediately, it would be good if they radically extended that definition now.


I think the unification of Germany went pretty well over all, considering

Many towns in eastern Germany have lost most of their industry, employment and mobile population. Which isn't great if you're older, ill, disabled or otherwise unable to move easily. The effect has been significant. I'm not defending the DDR or harking back to it, merely saying the transition was- and is- painful.


I would also think the Nth Koreans are very 'biddable' and if the Sth Koreans want them, I don't see that it will be a huge problem

Why would you also think that? The South Koreans would have to cope with 25 million people who may have suffered endemic famine for years (as far as we can establish from their limited news media), an economic infrastructure decades behind East Germany's and so on. Afraid I can't share your optimism.


Surely there were assurances made that [displaced Cypriots] wouldn't lose their property?

No, pretty much the opposite. The Greek Cypriot government still largely claims property abandoned or confiscated 35 years ago.


It has worked out better for India without having to deal with approx. 400m muslim in their state

Maybe, but you were talking about Pakistan. You seemed to be saying that its 99% Muslim population led to social cohesion, etc. It doesn't- the country has been politically volatile for 60 years, with mainly military government, ethnic and religious conflict and lack of economic development even before you start on their permanent readiness for a nuclear kick-off with India.


Wales & Scotland were traditionally countries (Principality & Kingdom) NI was part of the Kingdom of Ireland. Their populations are largely protestant as well (i.e., something to be rated on the same level as having a common language

Apart from the separatist majority being larger in NI, the most significant difference is that it's been a distinct, recognised entity for less time. 'Traditional' just means 'old'.


can't understand why NI unionists don't define themselves as British-Irish/ Scots-Irish in a similar way to how some prominent Irish citizens define themselves as Anglo-Irish

Some do, some don't.


(i.e., Garech de Brun - founder of Claddagh Records and son of Lord Oranmore). He seems to have no problem with his identity

Sorry, never heard of any of them- although I'm guessing the first guy started life as plain Gary Brown. BTW like them, I've no problem with my identity (nor anyone else's).


In her case, she has two separate nationalities, and doesn't feel less than 100% of either of them

Hear, hear and Amen.

[co. down green]

Saw this article from yesterday's Belfast Telegraph. Very unusual for the Telegraph to have opinions that would not toe the usual unionist line, in this case eligibility.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/football-bosses-score-an-own-goal-in-eligibility-row-14889070.html

[gspain]

Saw this article from yesterday's Belfast Telegraph. Very unusual for the Telegraph to have opinions that would not toe the usual unionist line, in this case eligibility.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/football-bosses-score-an-own-goal-in-eligibility-row-14889070.html

Owned by Tony O'Reilly isn't it?

[lopez]

I don't- contrary to what you keep insisting- see one as secondary or subservient to the other.
But there is a difference and why I keep bringing it up is that it is central - or should be central - to this thread. Who one sees as their nationality. The third policeman rightly says that you can have a British and an Irish identity, but for many people in the North there is no British identity, and yet they are not foreigners in their own country. They are fiercely Down, Armagh, Derry in Gaelic games as opposed to supporting Dublin. But when it comes to football, their allegiance to 'the south' is often viewed as an allegiance to a foreign country.


How can you impose your Irish identity on me? I already have an Irish identity.
Again you might have your Irish identity but I don't think that applies to most unionists. Or is it just Sammy Wilson talking to Ali G on camera that insists that the 6C is not Ireland? Why did James Craig etc. take such offence at the former Article 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution, if their Irishness meant so much to them? Once again any Irish identity - usually dressed up as Ulster identity which may well be Irish but is hardly encompassing the island - is secondary to Britishness.



That's Britain for you- it's pretty keen on royalty as a means of government. NI isn't really any keener on Brenda and her kin than Scotland, Wales or any part of England. Even the SNP don't want to get rid of the monarchy.
I disagree. When I was at school, the royalty was universally detested by my classmates, and this was a state school. Could you tell me you had the same experience? There are no overt displays of 'loyalism' for most of England. My own 'keeness' on the royals as head of state stem more from keeping Thatch and Bliar out than keepioing a bunch of scroungers in big houses.


Is this a joke? Seems a fair question to me. You don't seriously expect a Dane- however well-educated the population there- to be an expert on nationality issues in Belfast. Particularly when NI hasn't featured regularly in European news media for a decade or more. Do you think people in Ireland are au fait with the intricacies of Scandinavian government? Almost certainly not- most would struggle to pinpoint any Danish city outside Copenhagen, or think Aarhus is an early hit by Madness.I expect a forty-something of any part of Western Europe to at least know, from forty years of television coverage, that quite a large part of the population of the 6C see their country, their capital, and their nationality as Ireland, and not to ask me such a idiotic question.

[Gather round]

But there is a difference and why I keep bringing it up is that it is central - or should be central - to this thread

Almost everyone on this thread, including me, agrees it's fine for people from Northern Ireland to play for the Republic's football teams. The thread has gone off at an extended tangent mainly because you and others just keep repeating that other Irish people are less or not at all Irish. When basic observaton suggests the contrary.


But when it comes to football, their allegiance to 'the south' is often viewed as an allegiance to a foreign country

See immediately above and ad nauseam similarly up-thread and elesewhere. I've no problem with people from Northern Ireland supporting the Republic's football teams, or perhaps more importantly identifying with it overall. Of course I regard the Republic as a foreign country, but I don't feel any need to assume from that, that nationalists in NI are therefore foreigners. If they see themselves thus, that's fine.


Again you might have your Irish identity but I don't think that applies to most unionists

The main evidence that you (plural) use for this is basically opinion surveys where respondents tend to be offered a deliberately limited choice of identities. British, Irish or Northern Irish. Largely because of the loaded question, unionists tend to equate 'Irish' (as opposed to 'Northern Irish') with 'Republic of Irish', and thus to reject it. But it would silly to assume from this that they don't feel at all Irish. You don't see the word 'Ireland' painted over in graffiti in unionist areas, to take an equally silly example.


Why did James Craig etc. take such offence at the former Article 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution, if their Irishness meant so much to them?

Most unionists were irritated by Articles 2 and 3 because they were both a) aggressively seeking to force us from our own country into another, yet b) dishonest to the point of absurdity. The Republic of Ireland has done basically done nothing since 1948 to try to re-integrate the national territory. Mainly because they know a significant population- probably a majority- would sh*t themselves if it ever became more than a notional possibility.


Once again any Irish identity - usually dressed up as Ulster identity which may well be Irish but is hardly encompassing the island - is secondary to Britishness

We may be getting somewhere if you at least acknowledge Ulster may be Irish. It doesn't have to encompass the whole island to be Irish, any more than a Corkman's does. It doesn't have to be secondary to Britishness, although it can be. How many times?


When I was at school, the royalty was universally detested by my classmates, and this was a state school. Could you tell me you had the same experience?

No, most of my schoolmates just accepted, as their elders did, that Britain was a monarchy because that suited a large majority of the population. There was more agitation/ political support to end it when Victoria was having it off with her gamekeeper in the 1860s.


There are no overt displays of 'loyalism' for most of England

There are no Orange carnivals any more. But that's only one exaggerated form of support for the monarchy. There are plenty of others, and because of their popularity there's no likelihood of a Republic of Britain in the near future. A shame, from my point of view, but there you go.


My own 'keeness' on the royals as head of state stem more from keeping Thatch and Bliar out than keepioing a bunch of scroungers in big houses

Interesting idea. You tactically voted for a monarchy to keep Maggie and Tony out? Maybe a new strategy's needed, last time I looked the pair of them and their immediate successors ran an effectively presidential-style government for 30 years?


I expect a forty-something of any part of Western Europe to at least know, from forty years of television coverage, that quite a large part of the population of the 6C see their country, their capital, and their nationality as Ireland, and not to ask me such a idiotic question

Sorry, that's just unrealistic. Even people in Belfast recognise they aren't a crucial Europe-wide news story any more, and haven't been since the 1990s. Further afield people just aren't likely to know/ care. Your exaggerated outrage might be justified if the woman was a journalist doing a feature on the lovable craicster tourists, but if she was just someone you met in a pub or cafe, it's over the top. Locals don't have to research what tourists do and think; the convention surely should be the other way round?

[Mr_Parker]

Saw this article from yesterday's Belfast Telegraph. Very unusual for the Telegraph to have opinions that would not toe the usual unionist line, in this case eligibility.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/football-bosses-score-an-own-goal-in-eligibility-row-14889070.html

It is written by a columnist. Unfortunately most of the journalists on the paper still don't get it.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Leaving to one side the largely pointless waffle or patronising twaddle, would however highlight this one point worthy of reply.


I've no problem distinguishing.
How can you impose your Irish identity on me? I already have an Irish identity.

Hmm, clearly you do.
Except that a majority of your unionist contemporaries dont agree with you, a point you still seem difficult to acknowledge.
Similarly you've failed to explain what happened to your new-diluted 'Britishness', or are you still insisting on the farcical 200% (and counting) 'logic' ??
;)



Again you might have your Irish identity but I don't think that applies to most unionists. Once again any Irish identity - usually dressed up as Ulster identity which may well be Irish but is hardly encompassing the island - is secondary to Britishness.
Absolutely spot on. Sums up the unionists in the North to a tee.


The thread has gone off at an extended tangent mainly because you and others just keep repeating that other Irish people are less or not at all Irish. When basic observaton suggests the contrary.

The main evidence that you (plural) use for this is basically opinion surveys where respondents tend to be offered a deliberately limited choice of identities. British, Irish or Northern Irish. Largely because of the loaded question, unionists tend to equate 'Irish' (as opposed to 'Northern Irish') with 'Republic of Irish', and thus to reject it. But it would silly to assume from this that they don't feel at all Irish. You don't see the word 'Ireland' painted over in graffiti in unionist areas, to take an equally silly example.
Well, er, No. You just don't like the results.
Lol.

Unionists when presented with those choices (What others could they have had??), are quite comfortable as a majority in consistently saying they're primarily British. As Senor Lopez has so astutely identified its type.

To be fair to our paranoid friends, the numbers saying this are slowly declining, but not slowly enough!

And if you were looking for a reason, despite the exaggerated way in which it was phrased, indicative of their usual insecurities, it was, according to you, because of.....


Most unionists were irritated by Articles 2 and 3 because they were both a) aggressively seeking to force us from our own country into another, yet b) dishonest to the point of absurdity. The Republic of Ireland has done basically done nothing since 1948 to try to re-integrate the national territory. Mainly because they know a significant population- probably a majority- would sh*t themselves if it ever became more than a notional possibility.

Though the last line is clearly nonsense, unless you have a crystal ball?


We may be getting somewhere if you at least acknowledge Ulster may be Irish. It doesn't have to encompass the whole island to be Irish, any more than a Corkman's does. It doesn't have to be secondary to Britishness, although it can be. How many times?
Hmm. Waffle or twaddle, you decide?



No, most of my schoolmates just accepted, as their elders did, that Britain was a monarchy because that suited a large majority of the population.
Surely as aspiring unionists it was the least that would be expected of them.....



There are no Orange carnivals any more.

So those fools in bowler hats marching and bonfires are just an illusion then? Yeah, right.

[Gather round]

Except that a majority of your unionist contemporaries dont agree with you, a point you still seem difficult to acknowledge

I've no difficulty acknowledging anything. Where I disagree I explain why. Do you think anything that a majority of unionists agree on is automatically right?


Similarly you've failed to explain what happened to your new-diluted 'Britishness', or are you still insisting on the farcical 200% (and counting) 'logic' ??

I remain 100% British, as I always have been. Nothing is diluted. I'm not claiming to be 200% of naything, nor is that implicit anywhere.


Unionists when presented with those choices (What others could they have had??), are quite comfortable as a majority in consistently saying they're primarily British

They could have had the choice you're so keen to deny them, ie to be British and Irish in any combination they fancy. I've no problem with some of them feeling primarily British.


Though the last line is clearly nonsense, unless you have a crystal ball?

No. Don't need one to see into the past, their intentions over decades could be quite clearly identified from their actions.


Surely as aspiring unionists it was the least that would be expected of them.....

Are you quite mad? No-one forces anyone, at school, or otherwise, to be a unionist or support the monarchy. Most 15 years in Britain support the Monarchy basically because most 45 and 75 year olds do, and there's litle sign of that changing.


So those fools in bowler hats marching and bonfires are just an illusion then? Yeah, right

Yes, in England they are, pretty much. I was answering Lopez's specific point, which you seem to have either missed or failed to understand.

[Stuttgart88]

Surely the only person who can judge if GR is 100% Irish or not is GR himself. Personally I’m really glad to hear that’s how he sees himself, alongside his Britishness. I think it’d be churlish of a unionist to say he’s British but not Irish.

I remember David Trimble being put on the spot over a decade ago, possibly on the Late Late Show. He was asked how he would classify himself if asked by a local while was holidaying abroad. His response was something along the lines of “I’m from that part of the United Kingdom called Northern Ireland” which I thought was a really cumbersome way of avoiding calling himself British, Northern Irish, or Irish.

Anyway, my childhood maths lessons when we learnt about Venn diagrams spring to mind.

[superfrank]

Owned by Tony O'Reilly isn't it?
You mean Sir Tony O'Reilly?

[lopez]

Almost everyone on this thread, including me, agrees it's fine for people from Northern Ireland to play for the Republic's football teams. The thread has gone off at an extended tangent mainly because you and others just keep repeating that other Irish people are less or not at all Irish. When basic observaton suggests the contrary.
You might and the majority here does too but that's not the case with most Northern fans or the IFA. FIFA have said that the players can choose which team in Ireland they want to play for. If this is about the right to choose, surely that's been sorted.

Most unionists were irritated by Articles 2 and 3 because they were both a) aggressively seeking to force us from our own country into another, yet b) dishonest to the point of absurdity. The Republic of Ireland has done basically done nothing since 1948 to try to re-integrate the national territory. Mainly because they know a significant population- probably a majority- would sh*t themselves if it ever became more than a notional possibility.
The people spoke at the 1918 election. A plebiscite was never granted. The whole of Ireland joined the union in one piece. Surely it's not unreasonable to see what the majority of the whole of Ireland wanted. As for the emotive words, what utter b*llsh*t. And I like the snide remark suggesting the 'republic' never having the bottle to take on the British. That really makes me laugh from someone where violence has been so key to change in the past four decades. Britain lost 26 counties of its country not because it was feeling generous. It would have lost another six had the most of the people in that area decided they wanted to be Irish first.

We may be getting somewhere if you at least acknowledge Ulster may be Irish. It doesn't have to encompass the whole island to be Irish, any more than a Corkman's does. It doesn't have to be secondary to Britishness, although it can be. How many times?
Ulster is indeed Irish. It has nine counties. This Ulster identity is primarily British based in Ireland, a sort of dog culture surviving in the manger.

No, most of my schoolmates just accepted, as their elders did, that Britain was a monarchy because that suited a large majority of the population. There was more agitation/ political support to end it when Victoria was having it off with her gamekeeper in the 1860s.
Is that the best example you can give for general p*ssedoffness with the royals where you're from?

Interesting idea. You tactically voted for a monarchy to keep Maggie and Tony out? Maybe a new strategy's needed, last time I looked the pair of them and their immediate successors ran an effectively presidential-style government for 30 years?
I haven't voted for anything regarding the monarchy, and as you know having Maggie and Tone would have little power in a republic like Ireland or Germany. Not that they wouldn't wanting to stick their nose in. I just don't want to lick their backside every time I want to post a letter.

Sorry, that's just unrealistic. Even people in Belfast recognise they aren't a crucial Europe-wide news story any more, and haven't been since the 1990s. Further afield people just aren't likely to know/ care. Your exaggerated outrage might be justified if the woman was a journalist doing a feature on the lovable craicster tourists, but if she was just someone you met in a pub or cafe, it's over the top. Locals don't have to research what tourists do and think; the convention surely should be the other way round?Really? Crucial stories when things happen like the occasional CIRA bombing. And someone in their forties would have forgotten all about Ireland from the seventies to the nineties? Yeah whatever? :rolleyes:

[ArdeeBhoy]

I've no difficulty acknowledging anything.
Do you think anything that a majority of unionists agree on is automatically right?
Hmm, except that you are out of step with a large majority of your own community who see themselves otherwise.
Whilst I'd sort of like them to all acknowledge their 'Irishness', somehow I don't think they're going to be especially obliging or quick in this respect.


I remain 100% British, as I always have been. Nothing is diluted. I'm not claiming to be 200% of naything, nor is that implicit anywhere.
They could have had the choice you're so keen to deny them, ie to be British and Irish in any combination they fancy. I've no problem with some of them feeling primarily British.

Yawn. So today you're not Irish??

As for the community at large, would have no great urge to deny the unionists anything apart from their usual control-freakery.
That withstanding, as repeatedly mentioned, there's been no headlong rush by them to acknowledge their right to Irish citizenship or even to the slighest degree, barely recognise any other aspect of Irishness except to acknowledge the name 'Northern Ireland'.

This is confirmed by the IFA who insist on pandering to a unionist audience by using a British flag and anthem, both of which are barely acknowledged in other parts of that state, FFS.
Despite the laudable aim of FFA, which must be a charade in this context. And claiming that the whole community clamour to support what is now a divisive team.


Don't need one to see into the past, their intentions over decades could be quite clearly identified from their actions.
Eh? Crystal balls, metaphorical or otherwise are used to look into, er, the future. Only you would draw something from the past!!


Are you quite mad? No-one forces anyone, at school, or otherwise, to be a unionist or support the monarchy.
Hmm. I use the word 'expected' and you say 'forced'.

Draw your own conclusions on interpretation or of relative sanity!!!
Or lack of.


Yes, in England they are, pretty much.
Er, No. There are 23 actually happened/planned Orange marches in England this year. Shame on you!


I remember David Trimble being put on the spot over a decade ago, possibly on the Late Late Show. He was asked how he would classify himself if asked by a local while was holidaying abroad. His response was something along the lines of " I'm from that part of the United Kingdom called Northern Ireland" which I thought was a really cumbersome way of avoiding calling himself British, Northern Irish, or Irish.

Anyway, my childhood maths lessons when we learnt about Venn diagrams spring to mind.

Trimble's response even now, would certainly be atypical of his generation;the only hope is for younger generations of nominal unionists, possibly.
See the point above re.unionists wanting largely to be seen as British


As for Venn diagrams, in this case, it would be the largest circle you ever could imagine, typically with the figure '1' inside to represent a certain person!!!
;)

[The Fly]

I felt that I must inform you all of an incredible accolade that has been bestowed upon me. :o

A thread has been closed, and pinned, in my honour, in the Football Apartheid in Ireland sub-section of the Our Wee Country forum website.

It has been entitled - "Fly educates da North."


Don't feel obliged to congratulate me all at once! ;)

[Sullivinho]

A thread has been closed, and pinned, in my honour, in the Football Apartheid in Ireland sub-section of the Our Wee Country forum website.

That's too bad.

However, this thread here remains open for any bright academic wishing to further their education.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I felt that I must inform you all of an incredible accolade that has been bestowed upon me. :o

A thread has been closed, and pinned, in my honour, in the Football Apartheid in Ireland sub-section of the Our Wee Country forum website.

It has been entitled - "Fly educates da North."


Don't feel obliged to congratulate me all at once! ;)

Well you and, especially the Predator (who I'd say just deserves the accolade, over a long hard season etc.) have fought the good fight in the face of irrationality, even our 'friends' on here, would sometimes struggle to match.
That said, got bored of reading the sh*te on on there which makes this thread look like 'knockabout stuff' (and the temptation to post was just too much!)....

[Gather round]

If this is about the right to choose, surely that's been sorted

Indeed. But what has that to do with me pointing out that I'm as Irish as anyone, then you and others repeatedly denying it contrary to all evidence?


The people spoke at the 1918 election

I thought you were talking about Articles 2 and 3, which didn't appear for decades after 1918. You asked why unionists didn't accept them, I answered.


As for the emotive words, what utter b*llsh*t

Getting a bit emotive, are we?


And I like the snide remark suggesting the 'republic' never having the bottle to take on the British. That really makes me laugh from someone where violence has been so key to change in the past four decades

I think you're the one obsessed by violence, compadre. I was clearly suggesting (repeating what I've said through this and similar threads) that the Republic had done nothing to negotiate a united Ireland. Nor even, on a much smaller scale, to move the border slightly so that say Derry Cityside and Newry (both of which have had an 85-90% nationalist majority for decades) would be on the right side. They didn't do it because they never had any intention of it, broadly for the reason I described.


Ulster is indeed Irish. It has nine counties. This Ulster identity is primarily British based in Ireland, a sort of dog culture surviving in the manger

Charming analogy. Getting in one of your favorite snide digs?


Is that the best example you can give for general p*ssedoffness with the royals where you're from?

Er, you asked me for basically the opposite, I answered. Most people at my school, like most people in Britain generally, support the monarchy.


as you know having Maggie and Tone would have little power in a republic like Ireland or Germany. Not that they wouldn't wanting to stick their nose in. I just don't want to lick their backside every time I want to post a letter

Relax. If we get an elected presidente here in your lifetime or mine, given the powerless ceremonial of the job it's more likely to be someone relatively juniot or on the fringe of politics. Like McAleese or Mary-Mary Robinson. Or maybe a sleb, Stephen Fry or someone like that.


And someone in their forties would have forgotten all about Ireland from the seventies to the nineties? Yeah whatever?

Get real, amigo. They probably weren't that interested in it when it was a news story. So they'll be less interested in it 12 or 15 years on.


Er, No. There are 23 actually happened/planned Orange marches in England this year. Shame on you!

I stand corrected. It's hardly shameful on me. I was agreeing with Lopez's point that there's little support for the Orange Order in England; the low figure- much lower than in the past- basically supports it.

[ArdeeBhoy]

More pompous claptrap.
And issue avoidance.

[dantheman]

That's too bad.

However, this thread here remains open for any bright academic wishing to further their education.


Great quote on OWC, by someone called Eamonn an Chnoic. He asked why the Republic were called the beggars, suggests the nickname the Academy for the North :D:



They begged for every English and Scottish player they could find in the 1980s (whether they were Irish or not) to play for them.
(two of their most famous victories were against England 1-0 - 1988 and Italy 1-0 - 1994. Both winners were scored by a Scottish player who was a successful result of the "beggar" system)
They begged for countless Northern Irish youngsters to switch allegiance to them.
They begged a linesman to let John Alridge come on as a sub in 1994 v Mexico.
They begged for better facilities at some World Cup, or at least Roy "Beggar" Keane did.
They begged for a replay because of a handball by a French player in a World Cup qualifier in 2009 (We didnt see England, or USSR begging for replays following Maradona's 2 handballs).

They're still begging for more Northern Irish players, players who were not born in the 26 counties and have no link to ROI through family or birthplace and therefore shouldnt qualify.
They're begging to know why they are called Beggars.

and even worse...they had no food so they begged on the streets of Belfast for a loaf of veda.

I have a feeling you wont agree, in fact you may "beg" to differ.

Tony Kane is magic. http://ourweecountry.ipbhost.com/style_emoticons/default/owc.gif


Hilarious
Are you painting an entire country with one brush or just the FAI?

If ray houghton was eligible and wanted to play, who cares? I think his decision to join the ROI team was clearly the correct decision for him?

I don't think the ROI supporters have a nickname for the North. Well possibly the "north"

Very original
Maybe you could start calling us "The "Gentlemen......
The Academy" ha... That's a joke ok?

Maybe the IFA shoud be renamed IFAS or the Irish FAS, a training scheme for young Irsh international players?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Bitter Fex would be more apt for that shower....

Or in a certain case, 'B. & I.' allegedly, as if.

[co. down green]

The 'beggars' tag always gives me great amusement, the poor souls don't even know the history of their own wee team. Like the side that played under McMenemy in 1999.

Maik Taylor (Born Germany)
Iain Jenkins (Born lancashire)
Jim Whitley (Born Zambia)
Kevin Horlock (Born Kent)
Mark Williams (Born Cheshire)
Jon McCarthy (Born Hartlepool)
Danny Sonner ( Born wigan)
James Quinn (Born Coventry)
Jeff Whitley (Born Zambia)
Ian Dowie (Born Hertfordshire)

Or the birthplace of many of their present u17 & u19 internationals

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3900/map2o.jpg

[boovidge]

The 'beggars' tag always gives me great amusement, the poor souls don't even know the history of their own wee team. Like the side that played under McMenemy in 1999.

Maik Taylor (Born Germany)
Iain Jenkins (Born lancashire)
Jim Whitley (Born Zambia)
Kevin Horlock (Born Kent)
Mark Williams (Born Cheshire)
Jon McCarthy (Born Hartlepool)
Danny Sonner ( Born wigan)
James Quinn (Born Coventry)
Jeff Whitley (Born Zambia)
Ian Dowie (Born Hertfordshire)

Or the birthplace of many of their present u17 & u19 internationals

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3900/map2o.jpg


Quite right, its strange how in their blind fury at Irishmen choosing to play for Ireland they start ranting on about the FAI having the audacity to field Irish citizens born in another part of the world. Maik Taylor's NI "qualifications" would make Tony Cascarino blush.

[geysir]

Or in a certain case, 'B. & I.'
or B&i

The NI identity pie chart is suitably flexible.

[The Fly]

Or in a certain case, 'B. & I.' allegedly, as if.




or B&i



.......are they not the ferry people? ;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

As in 'British & Irish', as claimed by certain insecure individuals!
Though even a ferry company wouldn't claim to be more than 50% of each! ;)

And the pie chart referred to, in the case of one of those individuals would need to be extremely flexible....


But what has that to do with me pointing out that I'm as Irish as anyone, then you and others repeatedly denying it contrary to all evidence?s it.

Except you think when we talk about unionists collective mindset, you automatically assume we're, er, talking about you! As they generally claim to be a 'different' sort of animal. :eek:

[youngirish]

Surely the only person who can judge if GR is 100% Irish or not is GR himself. Personally I’m really glad to hear that’s how he sees himself, alongside his Britishness. I think it’d be churlish of a unionist to say he’s British but not Irish.

I remember David Trimble being put on the spot over a decade ago, possibly on the Late Late Show. He was asked how he would classify himself if asked by a local while was holidaying abroad. His response was something along the lines of “I’m from that part of the United Kingdom called Northern Ireland” which I thought was a really cumbersome way of avoiding calling himself British, Northern Irish, or Irish.

Anyway, my childhood maths lessons when we learnt about Venn diagrams spring to mind.
I agree. I didn't realise that Irish and British were mutually exclusive. His ancestors have probably been on this tiny island for the last 4 centuries so I would personally think he's entitled to consider himself just as Irish as anyone else on here. Just as someone from Scotland or Wales can also be both Scottish or Welsh and British.

He's just an Irishman that wants NI to remain part of Britain and who doesn't identify with the tricolour. Considering there was no tricolour or Irish passports 200 years ago and all people born on Ireland were considered to be British subjects does that mean that all our ancestors were not as Irish as those of us lucky enough to be born in the republic (or born abroad to Irish parents before Lopez has a hissy fit for not including him in my definition) in recent years.

[ifk101]

As GR has already pointed out, he identifies with a secondary Irish nation. By calling himself Irish, he's not seeking to identity with the Irish nation, as per our understanding, but with a (Northern) Irish nation that also considers itself to be part of the British nation along similar lines to Scottish/ British, English/ British, Welsh/ British.

[ArdeeBhoy]

All fascinating, but what Irish person would really want Ireland 'per se' to be part of Britain? Though don't deny they exist!
But the point is unionists (in the North) in general, currently don't see themselves as Irish, but British.

The clue's in the name.

[Gather round]

Maik Taylor's NI "qualifications" would make Tony Cascarino blush

Why would they do that? Both are basically Englishmen who qualified for a dual nationality according to the rules at the time.


Except you think when we talk about unionists collective mindset, you automatically assume we're, er, talking about you!

I don't. Haven't you noticed my posts on the thread pointing out where I disagree with other unionists?


what Irish person would really want Ireland 'per se' to be part of Britain?

I want part of Ireland to remain part of Britain. If by 'per se' you mean 'as a whole', I don't know anyone who wants that, apart from a few journalist stirrers like like Kevin Myers, maybe.


But the point is unionists (in the North) in general, currently don't see themselves as Irish, but British. The clue's in the name

This makes no sense. Pretty much 100% of unionists in Northern Ireland use the name Northern Ireland. It's part of Ireland, they're Irish.


His ancestors have probably been on this tiny island for the last 4 centuries so I would personally think he's entitled to consider himself just as Irish as anyone else on here

Indeed, they probably have (various relatives who researched it have got back as far as the mid 19th so far). But I don't need them to prove how Irish I am.


As GR has already pointed out, he identifies with a secondary Irish nation

Er, I don't consider it to be secondary to anything.


By calling himself Irish, he's not seeking to identity with the Irish nation, as per our understanding, but with a (Northern) Irish nation that also considers itself to be part of the British nation

That's the problem with your understanding, it's exclusive and unnecessarily restrictive. 'The Irish nation' suggests there's only one as defined by you.

[ifk101]

Er, I don't consider it to be secondary to anything.

Noted.


That's the problem with your understanding, it's exclusive and unnecessarily restrictive. 'The Irish nation' suggests there's only one as defined by you.

But it's not defined by me.