LOI in Europe 2022

[EatYerGreens]

Well it balances out with a better team, better facilities and a better setup of course.

But what I mean is it balances out in the 'how they hell do they afford it with only 5,000 supporters' bit ? Higher income - yes. But a lot higher costs too. Surprising that such an unglamorous team in an area with massively bigger clubs on their doorsteps can stay at the top table consistently against the odds. They haven't won anything in over 30yrs either.

[EatYerGreens]

I really think we sell ourselves short in the LOI when it comes to ticket prices. I cringe when I hear people complain about potential price rises. If we want a football industry in this country then we need to pay for it.

€20 for tickets is not outrageous and maybe €25 for premium tickets.

I'd disagree. Those sorts of prices make sense if you take the British game as your cue. But not if you look elsewhere in Europe. German football in particular is very reasonably priced, despite being the richest country in Europe and one of its best leagues. The absence of greedy international owners there plays no small part in that fact.

We won't build a football industry in Ireland by shaking down the small existing number of fans for more money. Only by expanding that fanbase, and the FAI putting more prize money into the game, will it grow. And increaisng prices would make it harder to achieve supporter growth.

I think the future for the LOI is actually in being the antithesis of the English/British game. Community-owned and rooted clubs charging reasonable prices for tickets and shirts, vs the bloated global greed machines of English football. We'll never be like them no matter how hard we try, so better off taking a completely different direction in order to fashion our own strong identity.

[pineapple stu]

Ah, fair enough.

I mean, £2.5m before a ball is kicked is a lot. Solidarity payments are presumably much higher (edit - £250k annually if you don't reach Europe (https://www.thenational.scot/sport/19813535.nine-scottish-clubs-receive-250k-uefa-windfall/) it seems.) A good Cup run would add more too (imagine splitting an Ibrox gate). Their record transfer fee is £3m for David Turnbull to Celtic in 2020. It's all different level stuff.

And Scottish football I'd say has a deep tradition, which equates to mindlessly attending games at £25 a pop when you know Celtic or Rangers are going to win everything anyway. I'd say that counts for a lot too. I agree it sounds a lot to pay every second week to watch a fairly nondescript team

[sullanefc]

I'd disagree. Those sorts of prices make sense if you take the British game as your cue. But not if you look elsewhere in Europe. German football in particular is very reasonably priced, despite being the richest country in Europe and one of its best leagues. The absence of greedy international owners there plays no small part in that fact.

We won't build a football industry in Ireland by shaking down the small existing number of fans for more money. Only by expanding that fanbase, and the FAI putting more prize money into the game, will it grow. And increaisng prices would make it harder to achieve supporter growth.

I think the future for the LOI is actually in being the antithesis of the English/British game. Community-owned and rooted clubs charging reasonable prices for tickets and shirts, vs the bloated global greed machines of English football. We'll never be like them no matter how hard we try, so better off taking a completely different direction in order to fashion our own strong identity.
Yeah, that's fair enough. But I'm not sure that price is the biggest factor on attendances though. I remember years ago when TNB let everyone into TX for free in a game against Drogs and only about 2500 went.

I completely take the point about not gouging the same loyal fans over and over alright though. However, I think I would reward the season tickets holders with discounts though.

My season ticket this year works out at an average of €13.20 per game, or 16 games for the price of about 14. So if I miss more than two games, it's worse value.

Anyway, I degress.

We will be waiting along time for the FAI to up the prize money, and with the levels of inflation at the moment, clubs ate going to have to raise revenue somehow.

[D24Saint]

I think the tickets are too cheap in general. When you look a the prices people are paying for shows and concerts these days. We put up the main stand to twenty this season. The European game is €25. The thing that holds clubs back when it comes to price increases is the rubbish facilities. If you could have decent food , toilets & bar you could sell it as a proper night out. I know interest in the greyhounds have waned in recent years but they got good crowds for years due to their facilities. The people going largely had no knowledge or great passion for the sport.

[Nesta99]

I think we have to consider the facilities were are paying in to when setting prices. You could probably justify price increases for Tallaght, Turners Cross and maybe The Showgrounds and Brandywell. Couple of others too. But Oriel, United Park, Tolka et al you are limited in how you can price games or introduce premium tickets. Its not a given that clubs must price things relatively similar but there could be plenty of people that would balk at paying €10-15 more at one club compared to another and I dont think the reasoning of 'it is a better facility to watch games in Tallaght' would be just accepted. Whether we have some sort of acceptance of poor facilities or that LoI fans are pretty low maintenance I dont know, but I enjoy match night at most grounds United Park being one but dont know if Id be that happy if there was a significant increase in costs. With Oriel, for example, what you may gain at the turnstiles you could lose in bar takings.

We'd have to be more imaginative in how ticket price increases would be presented and justified.

[D24Saint]

I think we have to consider the facilities were are paying in to when setting prices. You could probably justify price increases for Tallaght, Turners Cross and maybe The Showgrounds and Brandywell. Couple of others too. But Oriel, United Park, Tolka et al you are limited in how you can price games or introduce premium tickets. Its not a given that clubs must price things relatively similar but there could be plenty of people that would balk at paying €10-15 more at one club compared to another and I dont think the reasoning of 'it is a better facility to watch games in Tallaght' would be just accepted. Whether we have some sort of acceptance of poor facilities or that LoI fans are pretty low maintenance I dont know, but I enjoy match night at most grounds United Park being one but dont know if Id be that happy if there was a significant increase in costs. With Oriel, for example, what you may gain at the turnstiles you could lose in bar takings.

We'd have to be more imaginative in how ticket price increases would be presented and justified.

They we charging €25 one time for seats in the small stand in United Park.

[oriel]

£2.5m in prize money for finishing fourth (https://www.totalsportal.com/football/scottish-premiership-prize-money/amp/) would go a long way towards that.

Ticket prices at £25 for an adult are twice the typical LoI ticket price of €15, so if their crowds are twice the LoI's, gate receipts would be four times ours.

Those are two big factors to start off with


Plus they are guaranteed 4 full houses every season with old firm visits, plus same as most UK clubs unlike Irish football (at times), a run of home form poor results won't really effect their next crowd.

But............Motherwell is certainly not Edinburgh and its 'challenging' to tourists, been once, its a tough old town, decent stadium though, good facilities at Fir Park.

[Nesta99]

They we charging €25 one time for seats in the small stand in United Park.

I remember, and there was a lot of negative publicity about it. LMFM had a field day with Drog reps, supporters, SVP on their current affairs show. They were the only seats available, most people were ok with terrace tickets, but it was really pushing the limits on what even the regulars in that seated area were ok with.

[EatYerGreens]

Plus they are guaranteed 4 full houses every season with old firm visits, plus same as most UK clubs unlike Irish football (at times), a run of home form poor results won't really effect their next crowd.

But............Motherwell is certainly not Edinburgh and its 'challenging' to tourists, been once, its a tough old town, decent stadium though, good facilities at Fir Park.

I'm not even sure they sell out against the Old Firm clubs either? They only give away fans one of the 4 stands at Fir Park, and I've definitely seen those fixtures on TV with empty seats in the home end.

[legendz]

The SPFL has revenue of over £30m a year. While the FAI can be a partner on administration side, should the league be self sustainable?

[Asterix]

Dinamo Zagreb/Shkupi for Rovers if they get by Ludogorets

[culloty82]

The SPFL has revenue of over £30m a year. While the FAI can be a partner on administration side, should the league be self sustainable?

Not exactly a fair comparison, however, when much of that is generated by the Old Firm, probably better to look at the Nordic and Baltic divisions.

[Asterix]

Dinamo Zagreb/Shkupi for Rovers if they get by Ludogorets

Same draw for the europa league.

[pineapple stu]

Same draw for the europa league.
So what - the winners play the winners and the losers play the losers?

That's a bit of a coincidence. Also a great draw as Shkupi scraped past a Gibraltar team (won 3-0 at home and lost 2-0 away), so a great chance of straight into the Conference League at worst.

[EalingGreen]

I'd disagree. Those sorts of prices make sense if you take the British game as your cue. But not if you look elsewhere in Europe. German football in particular is very reasonably priced, despite being the richest country in Europe and one of its best leagues. The absence of greedy international owners there plays no small part in that fact.

As you will know, the "absence of greedy international owners", or even greedy German ones, is down to the Bundesliga's requirement that fans should hold at least 50% of shares in each club (though RB Leipzig and one or two others have got round this somehow). Which is precisely why admission prices are so low.

But the downside to this is that with the exception of Bayern Munich aka "FC Hollywood", lack of outside investment in, and commercialisation of, German clubs has meant they are increasingly unable to compete at a European level, esp with English* football, while becoming a one-club league.


* - Today's Top Trivia: Stoke City FC, whose locally-born owners are billionaires, have not increased admission prices for 14 seasons!



We won't build a football industry in Ireland by shaking down the small existing number of fans for more money. Only by expanding that fanbase, and the FAI putting more prize money into the game, will it grow. And increaisng prices would make it harder to achieve supporter growth.

Obviously if you deter fans by pitching admission prices beyond the level they will pay, then it becomes counter-productive.

As against that, with LOI clubs being so dependant upon gate receipts as a percentage of their overall revenues, then the need to maximise income from that source is ever more important. And while football's roots lie in the working classes, and there is a cost of living crisis just now, nonetheless ROI is a pretty wealthy country overall, meaning clubs should not sell themselves short when seeking their share of that wealth.

Its a delicate balance.



I think the future for the LOI is actually in being the antithesis of the English/British game. Community-owned and rooted clubs charging reasonable prices for tickets and shirts, vs the bloated global greed machines of English football. We'll never be like them no matter how hard we try, so better off taking a completely different direction in order to fashion our own strong identity.
Too right, for as someone once pointed out, David didn't defeat Goliath by challenging him to a wrestling match, he had to find a different way.

Meaning that LOI football has to emphasise its own partuicular attractions, including localism and community etc Same for the NIFL.

[sbgawa]

You.d have to imagine the 2 nil loss away was a function of over confidence after a 3 nil home win (which Rovers didnt fall victim too).
Still any team capable of losing 2 nil in Gibraltar is a team we have a shout against.

[EalingGreen]

Not exactly a fair comparison, however, when much of that is generated by the Old Firm, probably better to look at the Nordic and Baltic divisions.
Obviously you can't underestimate the huge influence of the OF, but even if you took them right out of the equation, with clubs like Aberdeen, Hibs, Hearts and the two Dundees etc, Scottish football is still "bigger" than ROI football.

Whereas by contrast, in the absence of Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham and Newport, Welsh domestic football is clearly much "smaller" than in the ROI, even NI.

[pineapple stu]

Still any team capable of losing 2 nil in Gibraltar is a team we have a shout against.
Certainly given ye could have been drawn against the losers of Qarabag/FC Zurich, or Ferencvaros/Slovan Bratislava, or Maccabi Haifa/Olympiakos, it's a great tie. Easily the one you'd have hand-picked. Plus North Macedonia is actually a really nice spot if anyone's making the trip. Cheap as chips too. Get a pint in the Irish Bar in the centre of Skopje for less than €2

[Nesta99]

Its not impossible that Rovers could beat Ludogorets, and if they do the next round is not impossible either. Depends on how Bradley sets things up and really its a free hit for all with being able to parachute to the next tiers of competition, so go all out rather than play to contain!

[pineapple stu]

Sparta Prague or Viking for Sligo.

CSKA Sofia or Makedonija Skopje for Pat's.

Obviously if either of them get through. Away first both times.

[D24Saint]

Sparta Prague or Viking for Sligo.

CSKA Sofia or Makedonija Skopje for Pat's.

Obviously if either of them get through. Away first both times.

UEFA just couldn’t pull out Royal Antwerp could they. On the off chance we get to the next round that draw is a nightmare at short notice for the club. The fans would have little chance getting there either.

[pineapple stu]

Its not impossible that Rovers could beat Ludogorets, and if they do the next round is not impossible either.
Rovers are not going to beat Dinamo Zagreb...


UEFA just couldn’t pull out Royal Antwerp could they. On the off chance we get to the next round that draw is a nightmare at short notice for the club. The fans would have little chance getting there either.
I was in North Macedonia last year; one of my flights was cancelled at a week's notice (covid meant some flights weren't full enough for airlines to be bothered with), but I managed to arrange an alternative ok in the end, at effectively a week's notice.

They're both capital cities so either should be ok with one connection

[sparky12345678]

an interesting bunch :) watch out for the banners...
jokes aside. Skopje and Macedonia is lovely if you can take in a day or two at Lake Ohrid.
They love the irish in the Balkans, as everywhere (all sides of the ethnic divide see similarities with Ireland's struggle), so enjoy! :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KF_Shkupi

[PartySaint]

Pats managed to get a potential game against teams that weren't even named in our Pot yesterday. The most Pats/UEFA thig ever.

[sadloserkid]

Its not impossible that Rovers could beat Ludogorets, and if they do the next round is not impossible either. Depends on how Bradley sets things up and really its a free hit for all with being able to parachute to the next tiers of competition, so go all out rather than play to contain!

I feel you are planting seeds here Nesta, planning to throw your harvest at Stephen Bradley's head now if Rovers lose to Ludogorets (as they should). 🙂

[EatYerGreens]

Obviously you can't underestimate the huge influence of the OF, but even if you took them right out of the equation, with clubs like Aberdeen, Hibs, Hearts and the two Dundees etc, Scottish football is still "bigger" than ROI football.

Whereas by contrast, in the absence of Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham and Newport, Welsh domestic football is clearly much "smaller" than in the ROI, even NI.

I suspect if you took the 5 best-supported clubs and the 4 main population centres out of the Scottish game, as happens re Welsh football, then the rump of clubs that was left would see crowds plummet. An SPL without Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen wouldn't be much of a spectacle. And you'd also remove the Dundee clubs if it's fourth-largest population centre was culled.

[EalingGreen]

I suspect if you took the 5 best-supported clubs and the 4 main population centres out of the Scottish game, as happens re Welsh football, then the rump of clubs that was left would see crowds plummet. An SPL without Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen wouldn't be much of a spectacle. And you'd also remove the Dundee clubs if it's fourth-largest population centre was culled.Those Welsh clubs were never in the Welsh national league (there wasn't one), so couldn't benefit by association (no pun intended).

And re Scotland, I was only responding to a suggestion that if the two OF clubs ceased to exist, the other remaining clubs would still be "bigger" than anything in the LOI (or NIFL).

Remember that the SPL had to do without Rangers for 3 seasons, while the other clubs are "big" precisely because of their traditional status, deriving from when the OF weren't so dominant as they are today.

[pineapple stu]

Remember that the SPL had to do without Rangers for 3 seasons.
4 seasons - because hilariously they took two goes to get out of the second tier

[EalingGreen]

4 seasons - because hilariously they took two goes to get out of the second tier
Indeed! :D

But my overall point is that Scotland has long had a widespread footballing tradition, with many solid clubs throughout the country, with a history and tradition which long predates the present OF dominance.

And that's before you count the plethora of Junior clubs (i.e. outwith the League set-up), many of whom received incredibly big crowds, or used to at any rate.

And at least some of those have allowed for the expansion of the Scottish pyramid to its present extent.

EDIT: Just done a bit of googling for Scottish Junior football:

The term "junior" does not relate to the age of players. Football for young players is generally known as "Youth" (up to Under-19) or "Juvenile" (which is to Under-21 level) football....

... Despite the lesser media coverage the juniors get, many of the club sides are fairly popular, and some of the bigger games (such as the local derbies between Arthurlie and Pollok, and Cumnock Juniors vs. Auchinleck Talbot) can attract attendances in the thousands. Crowds were far bigger in the past (76,000 for the Junior Cup Final in 1951, with nearly 90,000 watching the semi finals including a replay) compared to the level of support attracted now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Junior_Football_Association

[nigel-harps1954]

Remember it's only a few years ago Rangers, Hearts and Hibs were all in the Scottish championship at the same time too.

[EatYerGreens]

Remember it's only a few years ago Rangers, Hearts and Hibs were all in the Scottish championship at the same time too.

Just for one season (2014-15), due to financial meltdowns/shenanigans at 2 of them.

Rather comically, Rangers could only manage a 3rd place finish behind Hearts and Hibs that season. They haven't both finished ahead of Rangers in the Top Tier for decades (if ever - I can't be arsed to check).

It was Scotland's equivalent of Cork, Treaty, Galway and Waterford all being in the First together :D

[geysir]

Much guffawing about the Scottish leagues, the Faroe island archipelago with a total population of 50,000+ are currently higher in the rankings than the LOI because their teams have had better results, not just because they have gained a few wins in the preliminaries over the past 5 years. And they have performed with distinction in games where they have earned null points, case in point KI Klaksvik recently losing out to Malmo fc 6-5 on agg in a CL qualifier.
I’d expect at least 2 more wins for the islanders in Europe this season.

How are they doing this? how is it that the Faroes u21s have earned such good results in their qualifiers, their national senior team are top of the minnows in Europe despite having tiniest population living totally isolated just south of the Arctic in the 2nd harshest climate in Europe?
How is it their league teams are performing with such distinction in European competition above and beyond what the LOI can manage?

[pineapple stu]

the Faroe island archipelago with a total population of 50,000+ are currently higher in the rankings than the LOI because their teams have had better results, not just because they have gained a few wins in the preliminaries over the past 5 years.
Actually it's entirely because of the preliminary round.

Two wins in the EL preliminary in 20/21, two wins and a draw in 19/20, a win and three draws in 18/19 - that's 1.750 in total, and they're 0.125 ahead of us. Plus Pat's got a bye in the Conference League this year which didn't help. And the leagues met in that time, which was a comfortable win for a Dundalk side managed by a glorified summer camp coach.

There's probably things we can take from the league, but it'd start with a proper perspective I think.

[placid casual]

The clue is in the name PS.
Pointless, uncontrollable spouting of noxious rubbish, which is just to be noted and politely ridiculed.

[Jack B]

UEFA truly hate us.

[ger121]

Much guffawing about the Scottish leagues, the Faroe island archipelago with a total population of 50,000+ are currently higher in the rankings than the LOI because their teams have had better results, not just because they have gained a few wins in the preliminaries over the past 5 years. And they have performed with distinction in games where they have earned null points, case in point KI Klaksvik recently losing out to Malmo fc 6-5 on agg in a CL qualifier.
I’d expect at least 2 more wins for the islanders in Europe this season.

How are they doing this? how is it that the Faroes u21s have earned such good results in their qualifiers, their national senior team are top of the minnows in Europe despite having tiniest population living totally isolated just south of the Arctic in the 2nd harshest climate in Europe?
How is it their league teams are performing with such distinction in European competition above and beyond what the LOI can manage?

You used to bash the LOI with Icelandic endeavours in Europe. Now Iceland are performing poorly in Europe, you’ve now moved on to the Faroese. Who will you turn to next?

[sbgawa]

You used to bash the LOI with Icelandic endeavours in Europe. Now Iceland are performing poorly in Europe, you’ve now moved on to the Faroese. Who will you turn to next?

Samaritans

[legendz]

The Premier Division should reduce to 8 with stricter grounds criteria for promotion. Not ideal for sure but some of the grounds being permitted access to the Premier Division are damaging the League of Ireland brand.

[paul_oshea]

Been in America for the last week so only catching up on stuff now. Article a week old almost now, but an interesting one from Lisa fallon about time the ball is in play, was a factor I hadnt considered when complaining all the time ( especially by gone years where I compared S&C coaches being brought into the GAA and being laughed at here) about Irish sides inability to last the full 90 mins --> https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/2022/07/08/irish-clubs-make-hay-in-european-summer-but-winter-is-coming/

Refreshing to hear the talk from Bradley since catching up on things, obviously the slovan brazzerslava is one that sits in the memory for him, hopefully he uses that experience well. If they keep the scoreline to 1 goal defeat tonight they will be doing well.

[paul_oshea]

Much guffawing about the Scottish leagues, the Faroe island archipelago with a total population of 50,000+ are currently higher in the rankings than the LOI because their teams have had better results, not just because they have gained a few wins in the preliminaries over the past 5 years. And they have performed with distinction in games where they have earned null points, case in point KI Klaksvik recently losing out to Malmo fc 6-5 on agg in a CL qualifier.
I’d expect at least 2 more wins for the islanders in Europe this season.

How are they doing this? how is it that the Faroes u21s have earned such good results in their qualifiers, their national senior team are top of the minnows in Europe despite having tiniest population living totally isolated just south of the Arctic in the 2nd harshest climate in Europe?
How is it their league teams are performing with such distinction in European competition above and beyond what the LOI can manage?

Well someone once said the Nordics are a superior race.

[Buller]

Been in America for the last week so only catching up on stuff now. Article a week old almost now, but an interesting one from Lisa fallon about time the ball is in play, was a factor I hadnt considered when complaining all the time ( especially by gone years where I compared S&C coaches being brought into the GAA and being laughed at here) about Irish sides inability to last the full 90 mins --> https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/2022/07/08/irish-clubs-make-hay-in-european-summer-but-winter-is-coming/

Refreshing to hear the talk from Bradley since catching up on things, obviously the slovan brazzerslava is one that sits in the memory for him, hopefully he uses that experience well. If they keep the scoreline to 1 goal defeat tonight they will be doing well.

Good article thanks, had missed that.

[Poor Student]

Just for one season (2014-15), due to financial meltdowns/shenanigans at 2 of them.

Rather comically, Rangers could only manage a 3rd place finish behind Hearts and Hibs that season. They haven't both finished ahead of Rangers in the Top Tier for decades (if ever - I can't be arsed to check).



Hearts finished 2nd ahead of Rangers in 2006.

[pineapple stu]

But both Hibs and Hearts?

[Nesta99]

I feel you are planting seeds here Nesta, planning to throw your harvest at Stephen Bradley's head now if Rovers lose to Ludogorets (as they should). 

I really am not that calculating, mostly!

Last year Rovers missed an opportunity by setting up conservatively, it was pretty obvious that they were in with a shout of going through and came close in the end when they had to attack. There are times when you cant expect a result but there is always hope. I dont think, and the players are probably on similar track, that you should go in to a game assuming you will lose, or talking about how much better they are.

In a league format, damage limitation could have its merits. In a knockout competition there isnt much point in that unless there is value put in the old Irish moral victory. Things have changed with the away goal being done away, unfortunately meaning many away sides have no will to venture forward. So it would make sense for Rovers not to be in all out attack mode in the first leg away, and keeping the tie alive for the return in Tallaght. But you dont have to play in to opposition hands by removing all fear factor, not using the underestimation of the ability of our clubs (except Sligo, if they were Real Madrid they'd figure out a way to underwhelm in Europe - if opposition ever request tapes for scouting, footage of Sligo should sneakily be swapped in) by not willing to come out and play.

It's cliched but attack can actually be the best form of defence. There are plenty of example where lauded opposition have looked pretty average and yet LoI clubs have sometimes been beaten before a ball is kicked. Likewise we have occasionally gotten results against higher ranked clubs and a bit more often scare the bejaysus out of some giants of the game. I hope Bradley has both learned from last year and to back his team with belief in their ability rather than fear the oppositions.

Im not a Pat Dolan 'everything could be wonderful', but I'm not writing off sides before a ball is kicked. Ask the Dutch and Greek lads from Vitesse and PAOK respectively whether they felt they were in competitive ties last year, i'm sure it was said then that the LoI havent a hope.

[Stuttgart88]

Anyone optimistic about Rovers' chances tonight? I fear it'll be a notch too high a standard.

[Buller]

Anyone optimistic about Rovers' chances tonight? I fear it'll be a notch too high a standard.

I think our defence will be more than able for them, think Ludo will struggle to score, so nil all is a realistic hope! Id be happy with even a 1 nil loss though, keep the tie alive for Tallaght.

Not so hopeful for scoring against them away to be honest - especially with Burke and Jack Byrne nowhere near match fit after injury. Watts usually steps up for very well in their absence but this side might be too much for him.
McCann has been fantastic since getting into the team - really helps make us hard to beat esp when level goes up I would say, with his whole career played at Championship/MLS level.

[EalingGreen]

The Premier Division should reduce to 8 with stricter grounds criteria for promotion. Not ideal for sure but some of the grounds being permitted access to the Premier Division are damaging the League of Ireland brand.
It's not certain that UEFA would permit this, on either or both of two grounds:
(a ) 28 games (i.e. each team playing each other 4 x times a season) may not be considered sufficient to establish a true champion/championship;
(b ) You can't really have a league where half the teams qualify for European club competition.

And although Liechtenstein are treated as an exception, if you look eg at Gibraltar, their top league has 11 clubs, while the Faroes' has 10, Wales 12, San Marino 15, Malta 14, NI 12.

I should say that I'm not at all certain about this, and it seems that Andorra currently only has 8 teams in their top league. But as against that, their biggest team, FC Andorra, play in the Spanish system, while Andorra are only granted two European places.

Either way, I'd have to say it would be a bit embarrassing if the ROI could only support 8 teams in its top flight, with one of those actually being from NI.

[pineapple stu]

I don't think UEFA would have any problems per se with a 28-game season or 8 teams in the league. The Baltics have had it before I'm fairly sure (often after teams withdraw at the start of the season). Possibly one or two of the Caucasus states too.

That said, the proposal in general is just pointless. If a ground fails licensing, you deny promotion and give it to someone else. You don't reduce the size of the Premier because United Park and Finn Park are tips. And an 8-team Premier would do more damage to the LoI's brand than Finn Park.

Anyways, on topic, and it's hard to see Rovers getting anything tonight. These are the kind of games Ludogorets have been making a living out of for the past decade (six consecutive group stage qualifications). They've not reached the CL groups in six years so they're not invincible - couple of Hungarian sides have knocked them out in recent years. And if you wanted to be optimistic, two points from their last two group stage appearances suggests they're not the force they were. So you never know. But it'd be one of the best results of the past decade if Rovers were to win either game I'd say.

[D24Saint]

(b ) You can't really have a league where half the teams qualify for European club competition.


That is currently the case in the Moldovan league. The team that played our opponents Mura in the first round was Sfintul Gheorghe from Moldova who finished fourth in their eight team league last season.