Euro 2012 Qualifying Group B - General Discussion

[ArdeeBhoy]

Are you saying you want to lose?
So if Trapattoni decides to play attacking football against, let's say Russia, and we go on to lose, you'll be happy with that?

Er, No!
Just that I would like to see more of a spectacle.
And draws are of limited use re.qualification.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
And all that.

[geysir]

Seeing 3 points is a spectacle :)
There is only one result and that is to qualify out of the group for the finals.
The qualification games are always a mixed bag.
By our standards of perfection, we played less than the perfect game in Armenia. The perfect away game against a team like Armenia is score 2, kill the game and don't let them back in, like we did in Estonia under Mick.

[Stuttgart88]

...without Roy Keane! I think we shipped a couple of chances in Estonia, but you're right, Estonia away was one of the least heart-attack inducing away games of the last decade.

[ArdeeBhoy]

We were a lot better in Tallinn than on Friday night....
And the point is we are drawing games than we could win.
A win & loss is usually better than 2 draws!

[Stuttgart88]

I thought we won on Friday.

[SwanVsDalton]

Not necessarily. Losing games hits momentum and confidence, going unbeaten provides self-belief - and the performances tend to follow. We would never have put in that performance in Paris if we had of, say, lost to Bulgaria and Italy instead of drawing against them.

[Stuttgart88]

I think that the last campaign highlighted that the tactics worked, just that the execution was sloppy - missed chances and silly defending. Even the disappointing home draw with Bulgaria should have resulted in a win. McGeady (in particular) and Doyle missing great late chances, at 1-1.

There were definitely more points left on the table than were fortunately gained. It wasn't the tactics that dropped those points in my opinion, it was the execution.

[geysir]

On Trap's straightjacket, he wants to inject discipline in the team and the straightjacket is his method. He has to be consistent. Each game is approached the same way, even the friendlies. If he does not approach Andorra with this seriousness of preparation as the away game, how can one expect the team to? He applies the straightjacket out of necessity. Amongst many things before Trap, we did not have the discipline in our game to achieve consistency with performance and results.
There were signs that at least we looked less panicky after scoring against Armenia.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I think that the last campaign highlighted that the tactics worked, just that the execution was sloppy - missed chances and silly defending. Even the disappointing home draw with Bulgaria should have resulted in a win. McGeady (in particular) and Doyle missing great late chances, at 1-1.

There were definitely more points left on the table than were fortunately gained. It wasn't the tactics that dropped those points in my opinion, it was the execution.

Hence the need for more creativity and at least an element of risk, in certain games. A win and a loss v.Bulgaria would have been better, similarly Montenegro. And possibly even Italy, though there I'd have taken two draws for the kudos at the time....

[SwanVsDalton]

But if we had of lost to Bulgaria or Montenegro, would we have achieved those two Italian draws? I'm not convinced - I think losing games only leads to losing more games and dropping more points.

[elroy]

I see Russia/Slovakia is at 4 tomorrow, doesnt appear to be Setanta or Eurosport.

[Wolfie]

Next up - Tuesday 7th September 2010

Russia v Slovakia
Macedonia v Armenia
Ireland v Andorra

[tetsujin1979]

But if we had of lost to Bulgaria or Montenegro, would we have achieved those two Italian draws? I'm not convinced - I think losing games only leads to losing more games and dropping more points.
Agreed, any point gained against more difficult opposition gives confidence against higher ranked opposition

[rebelmusic]

I dont think losing games ever helps. There was a major confidence rush for the team last campaign in that we were undefeated the whole way through. The last time that happened was when, Euro 92 qualifiers?

[Stuttgart88]

Hence the need for more creativity and at least an element of risk, in certain games. A win and a loss v.Bulgaria would have been better, similarly Montenegro. And possibly even Italy, though there I'd have taken two draws for the kudos at the time....My point is that the tactics worked but the execution was flawed. If we're liable to defensive errors and not being ruthless in fron of goal, playing more creatively may not be the answer.

Our disciplined approach is just the foundation. There's nothing to say Trap doesn't also want some icing at the top, maybe it's just that haven't got it.

Still, one of Robbie's chances, a justified penalty being awarded, one of Whelan's or St. Ledger's chance added to Fahey's goal and we'd be talking about this game in the same way as we viewed Estonia in 2001. If we were more clinical it could have been a romp.

For such a cautious team we certainly create, albeit from unorthodox passages of play.

Georgia away - scored twice
Monty away - created some good chances and had a penno appeal turned down
Cyprus - despite the hairy finish we could have scored 3
Georgia home - stupid defending, created chances, scored twice
Bulgaria home - awful performance yet still created enough to win
Bulgaria away - started well & scored. Dumb error and after that we played for a draw which we got comfortably enough
Italy away - scored, drew saves from Buffon and should have snatched it in injury time
Cyprus - scored twice and - like Armenia - got a goal when we needed one, a good sign
Italy home - didn't play great, scored twice
Monty home - dead rubber, awful game
France twice - created enough chances to win (and conceded enough to lose). Conceded a deflection and an illegal goal.
Algeria - scored 3
Paraguay - scored 2
Argentina - outclassed
Armenia - created 3 or 4 great chances, took one

I think it's a case of fine tuning and stepping it up a level, rather than fundamental change that's required. If we play the same way but get more ruthless at each end everyone will be happy, even the purists.

[noddy102]

I dont think losing games ever helps. There was a major confidence rush for the team last campaign in that we were undefeated the whole way through. The last time that happened was when, Euro 92 qualifiers?

2002...

[geysir]

Agreed, any point gained against more difficult opposition gives confidence against higher ranked opposition
And a point gained against the more difficult opposition, means they drop 2 points, increasing their pressure.

[Stuttgart88]

I know it sounds dumb but depriving your opponents of points counts too.

I suppose AB's point is that winning & losing against your rivals is better than drawing twice. You can't argue with the simple maths that 1.5 points per game is better than 1 point per game, but it's not that simple. Abandon our disclipline in favour of entertaining and we might be getting zero points per game.

I've always disagreeed with the win at home, draw away mantra. Home wins aren't a given these days, so away wins will make the difference. So far there's been no evidence that Trap has played for away draws, except maybe Bulgaria away after we had squandered our lead.

Either way, the 3 points from Friday are in the bag. Let's see if Russia and Slovakia can match it. So far we've left no points on the table that we should have collected. Let's take it game by game.

[tetsujin1979]

So far there's been no evidence that Trap has played for away draws, except maybe Bulgaria away after we had squandered our lead.
Brady stated on RTE on Friday that at no point did Trapattoni ever tell the players to hang back and defend

[geysir]

Italy had the bulk of the fortune last time around in the away games, grabbing the winner in Montenegro was a bummer, that bizzarre game against Georgia, did they not have a slice of luck against Cyprus? and then against us.

[geysir]

Brady stated on RTE on Friday that at no point did Trapattoni ever tell the players to hang back and defend

Didn't Giles retort that not being told to be offensive and go for the win, amounts to the same as being told to hang back and defend?

[tetsujin1979]

did they not have a slice of luck against Cyprus? and then against us.
won 2-1 in Cyprus, only scored the winner in the 92nd minute
were 2-0 down at home until Gilardino came on and scored a hat trick, the winner again in the 92nd minute

[SwanVsDalton]

Italy had the bulk of the fortune last time around in the away games, grabbing the winner in Montenegro was a bummer, that bizzarre game against Georgia, did they not have a slice of luck against Cyprus? and then against us.

According to Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_%E2%80%93_UEFA_G roup_8

Last minute winner against Cyprus away, last minute equaliser away to us, two own goals to beat Georgia in Tbilisi. Not to mention two late goals to win 3-2 at home to Cyprus.

[Sullivinho]

Didn't Giles retort that not being told to be offensive and go for the win, amounts to the same as being told to hang back and defend?

Trap almost certainly instructs the central midfielders to 'protect the back four' first and foremost. I think it was Paul Green who said those were his instructions upon joining the setup.

[tetsujin1979]

Didn't Giles retort that not being told to be offensive and go for the win, amounts to the same as being told to hang back and defend?
the full post match discussion is online here: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/mns/2010/0903/reaction_av.html
Needs realplayer

Brady mentioning working in the backroom, and Trapattoni's tactics is at the 6:30 mark
It's Bill who retorts, he interrupts Brady to say "but they did play like that [they were told to hang back] at times"

[geysir]

Trap almost certainly instructs the central midfielders to 'protect the back four' first and foremost. I think it was Paul Green who said those were his instructions upon joining the setup.

I agree with all you wrote except I would not have used the word "almost".
But it's not exactly like the 4th secret of fatima is it?

[geysir]

the full post match discussion is online here: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/mns/2010/0903/reaction_av.html
Needs realplayer

Brady mentioning working in the backroom, and Trapattoni's tactics is at the 6:30 mark
It's Bill who retorts, he interrupts Brady to say "but they did play like that [they were told to hang back] at times"
The bit I was trying to remember came after Brady explained the 'long ball to Doyle strategy' where Liam mentioned that Trap 'does not tell the players not to get forward'. Giles said as part of his reply that there is a difference between not telling to do it (i.e. not to tell the players not to get forward) and encouraging them to do it (i.e get forward).

[mypost]

Hence the need for more creativity and at least an element of risk, in certain games. A win and a loss v.Bulgaria would have been better, similarly Montenegro. And possibly even Italy, though there I'd have taken two draws for the kudos at the time....

Trap didn't get where he is, by taking risks. Having qualified for one tournament in 16 years, taking risks is not a policy that serves us very well.

The game on Friday was no classic, but the points on the board make up for it. A more carefree approach would probably have resulted in less than what we have.

[Sullivinho]

But it's not exactly like the 4th secret of fatima is it?

Exactly.

Nor would I think the Holy Father and co. are keepers of the fact our central midfielders are fairly limited. With talk of straightjackets and the like you'd think we had some reservoir of flair and creativity that Trap was stubbornly refusing to tap. In my opinion, Paris was less about escaping the Don's shackles and more the players realising a one-off situation and the fact they were 90 minutes away from the World Cup, which caused them to excel within the system. Even so, it's not like Andrews and Whelan were channelling Giles and Brady on the night. What I wouldn't mind seeing is a little more of the assertiveness/confidence they showed on that occasion. That at least, they're capable of.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Trap didn't get where he is, by taking risks. Having qualified for one tournament in 16 years, taking risks is not a policy that serves us very well.

The game on Friday was no classic, but the points on the board make up for it. A more carefree approach would probably have resulted in less than what we have.

Exactly. That's why we ended up in the play-offs last time.
And the same I suspect will happen on this occasion, albeit for a far more pointless tournament.

[mypost]

It's highly probable that we'll head to Zilina with 9 points in our pocket. So the style of play works. You mightn't like it, but it works. And while it works, you can't moan about it.

[Razors left peg]

Exactly. That's why we ended up in the play-offs last time.
And the same I suspect will happen on this occasion, albeit for a far more pointless tournament.

The European Championships is a pointless tournament??

[geysir]

Not only is the European Championship pointless but ArdeeBhoy thinks the WC is just less pointless than the Euros.

You have managed to dig a rather massive large hole for yourself Ardeebhoy in this recent discussion :)

[Charlie Darwin]

You'd think he'd have been delighted about the Catholics beating the Orangemen in the final this year. Apparently not.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except it's mainly tongue in cheek.

But yes, the Euros are largely pointless when compared to the spectacle of the World Cup.
That said would settle for qualification, but just can't see it with the current tactics overall. We seem to be trying to be a poor man's Switzerland??
Maybe we'll turn on a great performance v.the might of Andorra and all will be sweetness and light.

As for Spain, beating the uber non-football of the Dutch in Soccer City, was a virtual no-brainer. Though even they mainly disappointed in terms of real flair. Germany & Argentina were the best teams to watch IMO.

[mypost]

Except it's mainly tongue in cheek.

But yes, the Euros are largely pointless when compared to the spectacle of the World Cup.

In 365 nights time, we'll be coming back from Moscow. If, as is likely, we are in a great position going into the last two games to qualify, anyone who whines that going across the border to Donetsk the following summer is "pointless" risks earache at best.

You qualify for what you can, when you can. The World Cup great spectacle as it is, isn't the same standard of football as the European Championships. The difference between the last two tournaments demonstrated that clearly.

[DannyInvincible]

It's highly probable that we'll head to Zilina with 9 points in our pocket. So the style of play works. You mightn't like it, but it works. And while it works, you can't moan about it.

I like your confidence. But do you genuinely think we'll comfortably beat Russia at home? I'd love to see it, and I admit I didn't see Russia against Andorra - maybe they were truly diabolical - nor can I really say I'm up-to-scratch on the ability of their current side, but I can't see it being an easy game, or a "highly probably" three points, as you put it. If we come out of that tie with the three points, I have a feeling it'll be after a tenacious dog-fight and having scraped our way to victory.

Is the Slovakia game definitely in Zilina then?

[Stuttgart88]

It's highly probable that we'll head to Zilina with 9 points in our pocket. So the style of play works. You mightn't like it, but it works. And while it works, you can't moan about it.I admire your optimism.

[mypost]

I like your confidence. But do you genuinely think we'll comfortably beat Russia at home? If we come out of that tie with the three points, I have a feeling it'll be after a tenacious dog-fight and having scraped our way to victory.

We'll have the ball for 90 minutes to score one goal at home. That should be enough. Russia will come for a point, but they're not Germany, Italy, or Spain, and if we harbour serious ideas of winning the group, we really have to beat them and the Slovaks at home.

[ArdeeBhoy]

And there in lies the rub. Do we have the creativity to beat both our main rivals at home. Not to mention Macedonia/Armenia, for sure?
Even if we get to 'Polkraine', such will be the 'enthusiam' myself included, that most people on here won't even contemplate going.....

Really wish the lads all the best for the qualifiers but if Trap doesn't change the overall tactics, especially given the stubborness over certain players, we're going to make really hard work of the campaign. And it won't be pretty.

[Stuttgart88]

Mypost, I actually expect Russia to have more of the ball than us. That's the way we play.

I love ArdeeBhoy's open mindedness. No matter how many times it's spelt out that even with our cautious tactics we create quite a few chances he assumes we don't.

I think he's right when he says we'll make hard work of the campaign and it won't be pretty, but wildly wrong if he thinks that playing less pragmatically will make it any easier work.

[Stuttgart88]

Maybe we'll turn on a great performance v.the might of Andorra and all will be sweetness and light.Even if we score 10 tonight it won't change anything in my eyes.

Like ifk101 I'm looking for a crisp high tempo performance. That's the way to beat minnows. Playing long balls and speculative passes plays into their hands.

[Kingdom]

I was pleasantly surprised by how forward minded we were against Armenia. Yes they had a good portion of the ball (UEFA doesn't give the possession stats) but they created few genuine chances:

Dunne's header
Movsistyan's bullet from outside the box where he sidestepped Green, narrowly over, (on that point, he was an ox of a dude. Seriously strong and held the ball up extremely well) - not so much a chance but would have been a wonder goal
The great chance in the box that Mkhitaryan miscontrolled


and that was it. So they created one real opportunity in the box. We on the other hand created 4 great chances, Robbie x2, ledger's header and the goal. We didn't pepper the goal with speculative shots, the few we did would amount to efforts in my opinion (Whelan first half i/t, McGeady and Doyle runs + shots) as the Armenian equivalents were included.

Green, Killer and perhaps McGeady aside, I thought we did quite well, given the conditions and the players situations coming into the game. We often committed the full backs forward, John O'Shea seemed to be on permanent overlap :eek: and we did have a couple of periods of excellent football. I think there might be an aloofness with the Irish media tbh. The notion that we should be hammering Armenia. I said before the game that if we scored early I thought we could do damage, and I stand by that. If Robbie had scored in the 7th minute, and I think on balance he probably shpuld have, it would have opened things up a little more and maybe given McGeady a bit more space to exploit.

[Stuttgart88]

As for Spain, beating the uber non-football of the Dutch in Soccer City, was a virtual no-brainer. Though even they mainly disappointed in terms of real flair. Germany & Argentina were the best teams to watch IMO.I'm confused here. What do you want? Success or a pat on the back for being pleasing on the eye? If Spain disappoint you then Ireland really have their work cut out.

[Kingdom]

Even if we score 10 tonight it won't change anything in my eyes.

Like ifk101 I'm looking for a crisp high tempo performance. That's the way to beat minnows. Playing long balls and speculative passes plays into their hands.

Exactly. The funny thing is we are quite capable of playing crisp one-touch football. Lawrence is an extremely underrated player. There is an excellent axis of

----Doyle-----
Whelan----Lawrence
---------O'Shea

on the right hand side and they are very adept at interchanging play between them. Doyle is the fulcrum now in my eyes. His drive, his strength and his aerial ability will be key tonight. If, and it's a big if, we could settle quickly, then we could have an interesting night tonight.
I have to be honest, I'm disappointed Gibson isn't playing. I don't think he's as fantastic as some people make out, but the boy can pick a pass, and has an eye for goal, and he does seem to have that inner confidence that he is able for this level. Paul Green I'm just not as sure about.
Ideally, we'd have properly blooded Cunningham, Foley and McCarthy through either handy friendlies or the B games, as I think a match like tonight would be perfect for them. Cunningham and Foley would offer something both offensively and defensively on the flanks, making life easier for McGeady and lawrence, while McCarthy similar to Gibson would be a good rover from the middle.

[Stuttgart88]

I was pleasantly surprised by how forward minded we were against Armenia. Yes they had a good portion of the ball (UEFA doesn't give the possession stats) but they created few genuine chances:

Dunne's header
Movsistyan's bullet from outside the box where he sidestepped Green, narrowly over, (on that point, he was an ox of a dude. Seriously strong and held the ball up extremely well) - not so much a chance but would have been a wonder goal
The great chance in the box that Mkhitaryan miscontrolled


and that was it. So they created one real opportunity in the box. We on the other hand created 4 great chances, Robbie x2, ledger's header and the goal. We didn't pepper the goal with speculative shots, the few we did would amount to efforts in my opinion (Whelan first half i/t, McGeady and Doyle runs + shots) as the Armenian equivalents were included.

Green, Killer and perhaps McGeady aside, I thought we did quite well, given the conditions and the players situations coming into the game. We often committed the full backs forward, John O'Shea seemed to be on permanent overlap :eek: and we did have a couple of periods of excellent football. I think there might be an aloofness with the Irish media tbh. The notion that we should be hammering Armenia. I said before the game that if we scored early I thought we could do damage, and I stand by that. If Robbie had scored in the 7th minute, and I think on balance he probably shpuld have, it would have opened things up a little more and maybe given McGeady a bit more space to exploit.At one point, well into the second half, SKY showed that we were on 57% possession vs. 43%. That's quite high.

I think they caused a few scary moments, but we created real chances (even if 2 of them were from Shay's long kicks). Watching the replays you could see Keane was clearly tripped for a penalty too. With a bit more of an edge in front of goal we could easily have replaced the Estonia 2001 performance as the benchmark of a job well done away.

Serbia, Portugal & Belgium slipped up there. World & European Champions Spain won there 2-1. Everyone should just accept the points. Of course point out the inadequacies and work on them, but don't paint a grim picture of doom.

[tetsujin1979]

UEFA doesn't give the possession stats

At one point, well into the second half, SKY showed that we were on 57% possession vs. 43%. That's quite high.
The stats are on skysports.com: http://www.skysports.com/football/match_report/0,19764,11065_3263110,00.html


Armenia Team Statistics Republic of Ireland
0 Goals 1
0 1st Half Goals 0
7 Shots on Target 4
8 Shots off Target 5
8 Blocked Shots 2
9 Corners 6
16 Fouls 16
0 Offsides 3
1 Yellow Cards 1
0 Red Cards 0
71.2 Passing Success 71.8
17 Tackles 18
94.1 Tackles Success 88.9
48.7 Possession 51.3
47.1 Territorial Advant 52.9

[DannyInvincible]

Those stats are surprising. Did Armenia definitely have nearly twice as many shots on goal as us? :confused:

[Schumi]

Those stats are surprising. Did Armenia definitely have nearly twice as many shots on goal as us? :confused:

They had a few long shots that Given had to stop but weren't exactly dangerous so I think the stat is a bit misleading.

[SwanVsDalton]

Yeah they were pretty much shooting on sight.

I think there's a surprising amount of negative given how we overcome a potentially tricky opponent away from home. Unlike ArdeeBhoy, I couldn't give a fig if we are the dourest, luckiest team in the world if we get the result. There's been too many years of careless football and bad luck, with no return, for me to care. But, to be fair, we arn't THAT bad to watch. ArdeeBhoy's glass isn't so much half empty, as half smashed into tiny shards of naysayery. ;)