Euro 2012 Qualifying Group B - General Discussion

[Stuttgart88]

The belly putter analogy was hinting that if you're not sinking your putts, then maybe you should change your instrument.

[Closed Account 2]

Russia lost home today to Belgium down in Voronezh, ended 2-0 Lukaku (young Belgian Congain striker at Anderlecht) caused the Russians all sorts of trouble at the back, Akinfeev was sloppy for the first goal. Pretty much a full strength Russian team, Pogrebnyak started ahead of Kerzhakov upfront but even then there is little to choose between those two.

Slovakia also lost, this time 3-2 to Bosnia.

[pineapple stu]

And Macedonia drew 1-1 away to Albania.

[AlaskaFox]

That Belgian guy who scored twice looks at beast. Greenscene has reports and highlights of all the matches here:
http://greenscene.me/2010/11/euro-2012-group-b-rivals-friendly-reports/

[BonnieShels]

That Belgian guy who scored twice looks at beast. Greenscene has reports and highlights of all the matches here:
http://greenscene.me/2010/11/euro-2012-group-b-rivals-friendly-reports/

It's getting freaky now. Every player that was in my Spurs squad in the last PES is starting to come out in the open. Bawlls.

[AlaskaFox]

It's getting freaky now. Every player that was in my Spurs squad in the last PES is starting to come out in the open. Bawlls.

Were any of them Irish youths we should look out for?

[Predator]

So, the top three seeds lost in their respective friendlies. Maybe things aren't as clear cut as we once thought...

[paul_oshea]

Friendlies mean nothing. The good teams win when they need to, and yes that doesnt include us because as we have shown time and again we cant win when we should and/or need to.

[shakermaker1982]

Hand on heart do any of you think we can qualify for Euro 2012?

I'm usually an optimist but this time around I don't think we'll make it.

[paul_oshea]

Shaker I was thinking the same yesterday when I saw this thread pop up. People on here are usually over optimistic, there is certainly a pattern, as pointed out by crosby on the prediction thread for Norway game, from users of this forum before, during and after games that ranges from cautious optimistic before, to mellow, downbeat pessimistic during and shortly afterwards, and then "with hindsight/retrospect" an optimistic(lately blindly) outlook is the norm.

I don't think we will qualify for Euro 2012, in fact im 90% sure we wont. And that's being a realist.

[AlaskaFox]

Hand on heart do any of you think we can qualify for Euro 2012?

I'm usually an optimist but this time around I don't think we'll make it.

Russia and Slovakia aren't really any better than us. No reason why we can't, if we keep beating the lesser teams.

[Predator]

With a bit of luck (no injuries, best players playing regularly, Russia and Slovakia dropping points), I believe we can do it. We have talented players to return from injury (McCarthy, Meyler, Andrews etc.) and new faces staking their claim for a place in the team (Coleman, Wilson etc.). The Russia game will hopefully be proven to be an anomaly.

[pineapple stu]

I think if we do it, it'll be because we have a reasonably weak group. I think we're in for a decent spell in the doldrums - the spine of our team is not only 30+ (Given, Dunne, Duff, Keane), but is also from a time when we could still rely on the Premiership to develop Irish players with reasonable regularity. A lot of the new players now are either from the LoI (which can't develop as much as we'd like because of the barstoolers problem) and/or aren't anywhere near as good as we've been used to. And there seems to be much less depth there as well. I'd be fairly pessimistic for the future unless we can get the LoI much improved.

[Junior]

Of course it is there for the taking but so it has been for many of the campaigns since '88. We will do our utmost to ensure its difficult and more than likely lose in a playoff.

Beating Macedonia and/or Russia away is a must. We need to get this 'away win' monkey off our back (EDIT: I meant against a top seed and I suppose hindsight says that Armenia might actually be competing for 2nd spot but hopefully you knew what I meant!). We need to get back to being solid and getting slim wins at home.

Macedonia H - Win
Macedonia A - Win
Russia A - Lose
Slovakia H - Draw
Andorra A - Win
Armenia H - Win

That probably wouldnt secure us second spot would it?

[DeLorean]

I think we have a good chance of making the playoffs, because we are at a similar level to Slovakia. I don't think we're anywhere near as good as Russia. We have too many weaknesses. We have a top class striker who isn't getting any games at his club, and we have a highly rated striker who doesn't score goals, certainly not enough goals anyway. There'll be a lot of points dropped in the group. The biggest problem we have is our home form, which is pretty brutal. You're always going to struggle to qualify if you don't pick up close to the maximum at home.

[Schumi]

That probably wouldnt secure us second spot would it?

It'd get us very close. Slovakia could only drop one draw in the rest of their games to stay ahead of us. Russia will be gunning for them in Bratislava and Armenia and Macedonia could easily take points off them.

This group is pretty weak. I can't see us winning it but second place is very achievable; we'd need a nice draw and some luck in the play off to get through though.

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't think the group is weak, but it is inconsistent. On their day Russia are one of the top teams in the world but they don't seem to have many days.

[Wolfie]

Its a tirsesome cliche - but we just have to take each game as it comes.

The initial focus needs to be on overcoming Macedonia before we do anything else.

Its pointless trying to look beyond the Macedonia games. I think both of these games are pivotal now.

[AlaskaFox]

If we can win both Macedonia games, we stand a fantastic chance of qualifying.

[SwanVsDalton]

I think if we do it, it'll be because we have a reasonably weak group. I think we're in for a decent spell in the doldrums - the spine of our team is not only 30+ (Given, Dunne, Duff, Keane), but is also from a time when we could still rely on the Premiership to develop Irish players with reasonable regularity. A lot of the new players now are either from the LoI (which can't develop as much as we'd like because of the barstoolers problem) and/or aren't anywhere near as good as we've been used to. And there seems to be much less depth there as well. I'd be fairly pessimistic for the future unless we can get the LoI much improved.

Not sure I agree. If several players - McCarthy, Coleman, Wilson, Clark, Cunningham, Foley, Westwood, Long, Duffy et al - come close to their potential I think we have the makings of a very decent side. And there's others bubbling under too. Most of them are looking like getting Prem time, if they arn't already. Plus a lot of these guys haven't had much to do with LOI so not sure the fortunes of national side and domestic league are intwined. Not that I wouldn't want both very much on an upward trajectory of course...

[pineapple stu]

Time will tell I suppose. Maybe it's just me being out of touch with the English leagues, or maybe it's the Trap style of play at the moment, but the players coming through always seem to have lots of potential but seem very very average when they're on the pitch. A fair few of those you mention are 2g or 3g as well; nothing wrong with that obviously, but it does mean we're relying on another country to produce our international players, which isn't healthy.

(Coleman and Long are LoI by the way; though Long is maybe a bit generous as he only played once for Cork per wiki).

[Stuttgart88]

I'd like to see groups of players coming through the ranks from the U21 team rather than the odd individual.

Maybe I'm totally in denial but I genuinely think we have better players than our results suggest.

[SkStu]

Pineapple Stu is bang on the money with his initial post. I have been banging on about the same thing since Kerrs departure. Until we stop relying on England to provide and/or develop our players we are doomed to this perpetual uncertainty. Notwithstanding the fact that i also dont believe that our management teams are getting the best out of our players and havent done since McCarthy's era.

[SkStu]

Pineapple Stu is bang on the money with his initial post.

that part didnt hurt half as much as i thought it would. ;) :)

[Stuttgart88]

Pineapple Stu is bang on the money with his initial post. I have been banging on about the same thing since Kerrs departure. Until we stop relying on England to provide and/or develop our players we are doomed to this perpetual uncertainty. Notwithstanding the fact that i also dont believe that our management teams are getting the best out of our players and havent done since McCarthy's era.My God, praise for McCarthy! Agree totally. People have no idea how rewarding the McCarthy era was for a fan like me, despite the play-off defeats and bizarre selections. I laughed when I saw Harte playing CB for Reading - 14 years after Mick played him there for us!

Threads like "David McAllister" warm my heart though.

I've asked the question easily 10 times in the past and never once got an answer, but does anyone know if the FAI's Technical Development Plan implemented at least 6 years ago meets best practice in other (good) countries or is it just another booklet with the usual B/S?

[Sullivinho]

Hand on heart do any of you think we can qualify for Euro 2012?

I'm usually an optimist but this time around I don't think we'll make it.

If we do it'l be via a playoff after outpacing Slovakia to second place, including doing them in Dublin. Armenia and Macedonia could torpedo either of us in that race (or again, in the case of Slovakia). I'd take some optimism from our performance over there. In retrospect, it would have been better for us had the scores been reversed between the Russians and Slovaks in Moscow. Combined with the defeat in Armenia, they'd be in terrible trouble.


The Russia game will hopefully be proven to be an anomaly.

A duplicate anomaly in the return fixture wouldn't surprise me at all tbh.


I think we have a good chance of making the playoffs, because we are at a similar level to Slovakia. I don't think we're anywhere near as good as Russia. We have too many weaknesses. We have a top class striker who isn't getting any games at his club, and we have a highly rated striker who doesn't score goals, certainly not enough goals anyway. There'll be a lot of points dropped in the group. The biggest problem we have is our home form, which is pretty brutal. You're always going to struggle to qualify if you don't pick up close to the maximum at home.

I'd agree with all of that.

[geysir]

I've asked the question easily 10 times in the past and never once got an answer, but does anyone know if the FAI's Technical Development Plan implemented at least 6 years ago meets best practice in other (good) countries or is it just another booklet with the usual B/S?

If Iceland qualifies as a good country, the FAI doesn't meet best practice as compared to how the FA implemented development in Iceland. The FAI are late starters.
In Iceland there was a sea change in coaching methods of young players about 10 years ago. Iceland is football mad, most everybody follows the EPL and has a favourite team, but club structure and base is much stronger than in Ireland. The contrast with the past, in the coaching methods at clubs' summer training camps, is jaw dropping. Young players now are much more technically proficient. The FA heavily funds (male/female proportional equality) youth development.
Statistics; from a population of 330k, there are about 20k registered players (14k male 6k female). Male u17& u21s have reached the Euro finals,
women u19s and senior women reached the Euro finals.
Even if the national senior team tend to get beaten more often than not, I have rarely been less than impressed by the way they play. The u21s are just sensational. When they were drawn against Scotland in the Euro u21play offs, the Scot's initial euphoria was gradually eroded by the news filtering in that the Icelanders were feeling very relieved to have gotten Scotland.

[SwanVsDalton]

Time will tell I suppose. Maybe it's just me being out of touch with the English leagues, or maybe it's the Trap style of play at the moment, but the players coming through always seem to have lots of potential but seem very very average when they're on the pitch. A fair few of those you mention are 2g or 3g as well; nothing wrong with that obviously, but it does mean we're relying on another country to produce our international players, which isn't healthy.

Fair nuff, maybe I'm just an optimist though I agree on relying on other countries to develop players.


(Coleman and Long are LoI by the way; though Long is maybe a bit generous as he only played once for Cork per wiki).

I know. Just meant a lot of potential players arn't LOI related.

[elroy]

Do I think we will win the group??? After losing to Russia at home im afraid not. I still think we will get second though, after that its the usual play off lottery where we more than likely wont be seeded. So who knows??!?

However, I do think by the end of the campaign we will have a stronger team overall. Yes we will potentially be losing strong players like Given, Dunne, Duff and Keane, however up and coming to replace them we have Westwood, Stledger, Clark, Duffy, Wilson, Coleman, Clifford Lawrence, Hunt, Long etc. Also i think we will have a stronger centre midfield with the continued progression of McCarthy, Clifford and Meyler. In other words, whether we will qualify for Euro 2012 im not certain but i think we will have a strong team heading in the campaign for WC 2014.

[Crosby87]

Dunne will play in the next campaign, no?

[Kingdom]

Dunne will play in the next campaign, no?

I wouldn't bank on any of the thirtysomethings to play in the next campaign. Bear in mind it won't start until Sept 2012, so thats' nearly two years down the road.
I'm not bringing anyone's commitment into question btw, I'm just trying to be realistic.

Richie Dunne will be 33; Killer will be 35; Duffer will be 33. It's a delicate situation, considering that they will all surely be past it at the end of a successful qualifying campaign, would a new manager be thinking that way?
Emmet Malone wrote, surprising, how Dunne struggled to complete a pre-season and has struggled for fitness, and mentioned that this has been a more than occasional occurance.

Given will be older still, but I'd imagine he'll continue to travel over even if he's in a box.

[Kingdom]

Do I think we will win the group??? After losing to Russia at home im afraid not. I still think we will get second though, after that its the usual play off lottery where we more than likely wont be seeded. So who knows??!?

However, I do think by the end of the campaign we will have a stronger team overall. Yes we will potentially be losing strong players like Given, Dunne, Duff and Keane, however up and coming to replace them we have Westwood, Stledger, Clark, Duffy, Wilson, Coleman, Clifford Lawrence, Hunt, Long etc. Also i think we will have a stronger centre midfield with the continued progression of McCarthy, Clifford and Meyler. In other words, whether we will qualify for Euro 2012 im not certain but i think we will have a strong team heading in the campaign for WC 2014.

I would agree completely elroy. Obviously with regards to the midfield trio, we're hoping they'll continue to progress, and we've been poxed by that before (Sadlier, Partridge, Hoolahan, etc.), but while we might have less renowned players in the starting xi, we probably will have a stronger squad overall.

[Crosby87]

I know you are not questioning the commitment Kingdom, I just still think Dunne has one more Cup run in him. But obviously fitness is always an issue as people age.
I can't believe Duff is only 31. Honestly it seems like he was on Chelsea 15 years ago.

Don't mean to get off topic, but to expand on what Kingdom said, I tried to bring this up a few days after the France game and most people would have none of it, many thinking the lineup would stay the exact same forever, with the polite exception of KK retiring (to be assistant manager).
NOW that we have some seemingly "getting closer" to "ready" young players, who at least have done nothing to get everyone down on them, that all of a sudden people want in the lineup (including me), I am just interested in thinking who of them will actually be picked in two years and who will remain from this current team....
As said from your above Elroy; if we include Dunne and add Garvan, and JOSH, and for ****s and giggles McG, that is 15 right there, not including keeper...
2012 will be interesting. If the young players can (somehow) stay healthy and (somehow) progress, the new manager will have some (hopefully) viable choices. I understand of course at least one of McCarthy, Meyler, Cliffy, Clark, etc will not work out and will just turn out to have been hype but still.

At this point, maybe just maybe we can have a young athletic team balanced out by the likes of JOSH and such, and make a run in Brasil amongst the best female asses in the world according to Maxim magazine, the magazine of frat boys everywhere. (The Irish woman came in at 42. Sorry to any of you ladies who have been going to the gym.) (I know Dr Peepee and ALfred Honn, just to name a few, will take issue with that ranking.)
Again, not to give up on the topic at hand, but if the Euro ship sinks maybe there will be something to look forward to.
Maybe a young manager will suit the team in 2012.

[CraftyToePoke]

but while we might have less renowned players in the starting xi, we probably will have a stronger squad overall.

I think this is how it will pan out, and it will be interesting times, we have always had a top player or two in my time watching Ireland, Brady, McGrath, Keane, then the Duff/Keane duo for a bit, inspirational figures who could play in most sides, with the team around them being of lesser stature and the squad beyond that not being of international standard at all in some cases.

In a couple of seasons, we are looking at a strong squad with 2 credible options for most positions, if they all stay healthy and continue their career progress, but maybe not that world class presence in the side as we have previously had.

What would be ideal would be Clifford to shape up so well, Chelsea replace Lampard with him and a 20 goals a season top level striker emerges from somewhere, but I dont see him on the horizon at present, with Villa bulding their defence around young Clark as the top clubs line up huge bids.

[Kingdom]

I'd like to see more and more of our players gain experience in continental europe. Both for the experience of playing football, and lifestyle.
I'm getting more and more alarmed at the reporting of Paul Rowan in the Sunday Times alluding to the drinking of the players and pushing the manager further and further.
Wildly off topic, sorry.

[gastric]

We may speculate on here about the best way forward for Irish international football, but this article is sobering in its sheer honesty. Just making a living and not being on the dole is the goal for many League of Ireland players.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/league-of-ireland-goes-from-boom-to-bust-2433116.html

[Kingdom]

Took a look at the list on the LOI forum the other day. Makes for tough reading, you would mould some pretty decent teams with the players available.

[Stuttgart88]

I'm getting more and more alarmed at the reporting of Paul Rowan in the Sunday Times alluding to the drinking of the players and pushing the manager further and further. What has Rowan been saying recently?

[Kingdom]

What has Rowan been saying recently?

I'm almost sure I've recycled the past few weeks papers, but he has been openly mentioning the drinking of the players, and in last Sunday's column mentioned a few things.
1) Trap was asked could the players have wine with the team meal - Trap would allow this but none of the players want to, they want beer. He would prefer this choice, mentioned that in Italy, the team camps are straightjacket like.
2) The player asked to be let drink between the Russian and Slovakia games which he allowed. He was asked was it a second night, he refutes this. He didn't refute whether he was asked. This was backed up by a quote which is backed up by an anecdote "The players say they want to have a drink, we say fine ok, a few hours. We say ok, finish, the players say 20 mins, we say ok, the players say another 20mins, we say no. This is the way..." or something very close to that.
Rowan spelled out that the players went drinking between two qualifiers.

He doesn't quite descend to red-top-isms but it's getting closer to it. He comes out with some really curious predictions. After the Russia game he put a diagram of his team to face Slovakia, and it included dropping Ledger (something I could comprehend) but involved selecting Wilson at centre half rather than O'Shea.

The TImes is a subscription paper on-line, so the columns are there, if you pay

[geysir]

According to http://journalisted.com/ Paul Rowan has written...
More about 'trapattoni' than anything else
A lot about 'keane' in the last month.

I haven't read his articles recently (since you had to pay to read them), but isn't he the toe rag who went out of his way to mix complimentary quotes with his own sarcasm in order to diss Robbie Keane on the occasion when he reached his 100 caps.

[Kingdom]

I dunno much about him, I have found myself at odds with a lot of what he's written the last while, but no more than what's written here at times, so couldn't say much about him really.

[Adrock]

We may speculate on here about the best way forward for Irish international football, but this article is sobering in its sheer honesty. Just making a living and not being on the dole is the goal for many League of Ireland players.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/league-of-ireland-goes-from-boom-to-bust-2433116.html

€3500 a week for Gamble and Dempsey?!!!!!!!!!
No wonder our economy is in ruins, If they had that kind of money to burn they could have at least recruited some real talent.

[gastric]

Adrock, I would appreciate if you took your ongoing negativity somewhere else. I am sure you are only a windup merchant. In terms of the development of Irish soccer, Packie Bonner our technical director is to lose his job.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/1124/fai.html

[Crosby87]

1) Trap was asked could the players have wine with the team meal - Trap would allow this but none of the players want to, they want beer. He would prefer this choice, mentioned that in Italy, the team camps are straightjacket like.
2) The player asked to be let drink between the Russian and Slovakia games which he allowed. He was asked was it a second night, he refutes this. He didn't refute whether he was asked. This was backed up by a quote which is backed up by an anecdote "The players say they want to have a drink, we say fine ok, a few hours. We say ok, finish, the players say 20 mins, we say ok, the players say another 20mins, we say no. This is the way..." or something very close to that.
Rowan spelled out that the players went drinking between two qualifiers

There are two ways to look at this.
1). Its good for bonding and blowing off some steam, maybe some things that need to be said in the context of a small session.
2). Jaysus Lads can you go 5 days without a drink? You are professional athletes for christmas sake.

I dunno. Didn't work out for Andy Reid hope that does not happen again.
Do the players now feel that Trap is to old to have a connection with? Is that what is going on here?

[Charlie Darwin]

I'm fairly sure it's 2 - there's lots of ways you can blow off steam without boozing. Although on the other hand I'm betting outdoor activities like paintball or canoeing probably don't have the same attraction for professional athletes.

[Adrock]

Adrock, I would appreciate if you took your ongoing negativity somewhere else. I am sure you are only a windup merchant. In terms of the development of Irish soccer, Packie Bonner our technical director is to lose his job.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/1124/fai.html

I'm sure residing in Melbourne you truly have your finger on the pulse of Irish football, but I dont think its a unreasonable assertion to make , without winding anyone up, that paying Gary Dempsey €200,000 a year is not a sign of a competently run football club.

[gastric]

You are right. I do have a better understanding of Irish football as shown by some of the uneducated, negative and irrational comments you continue to make. For example, your rejection of the possibility that Adam Hamill could play for us.. In terms of my finger on the pulse of Irish football, at least I don't have it up my a***!

[Kingdom]

You are right. I do have a better understanding of Irish football as shown by some of the uneducated, negative and irrational comments you continue to make. For example, your rejection of the possibility that Adam Hamill could play for us.. In terms of my finger on the pulse of Irish football, at least I don't have it up my a***!

To be fair to him, that was me! So his finger could still be on the pulse of Irish football. Notttttttttttttttttt! :D

[SkStu]

I'm fairly sure it's 2 - there's lots of ways you can blow off steam without boozing. Although on the other hand I'm betting outdoor activities like paintball or canoeing probably don't have the same attraction for professional athletes.

plenty of outdoor activities like dogging and roasting that keep our young footballers out of trouble these days.

[Charlie Darwin]

Worked for Liam Lawrence.