Euro 2012 Qualifying Group B - General Discussion

[Stuttgart88]

4th June is huge. I think we can win out there, but it's too early to make any guesses. Lord knows who'll be fit or available.

[SuperDave]

We've definitely given ourselves a chance at this stage.

Who'd settle for a point in Macedonia right now? I'm not sure. If 1.5 or 2 were on offer I would!

I think we should dig out a sheer bloody-minded, professional ugly win, like against Armenia.

Fixed!

[mark12345]

"At times they passed around us in midfield and in the heat of June this will be a problem."

It certainly will, so that's why Trap needs to fix the engine room now. He tried Green and Whelan against Russia and got his arse burned. He's tried Gibson and Whelan on Saturday and that didn't work either.

Is it only us on this message board that can see that Fahey and McCarthy are the best midfield option, for their ability to hold the ball and not give it away like snuff at a wake.

Trap seems to miss this fact and isn't it ironic that the above pair (far better than Whelan and Gibson in my opinion) have amassed more Premier League minutes than any other midfielders in our squad. Trap can't keep putting in second rate players and hope to qualify.

[Charlie Darwin]

They both play in five-man midfields at club level. Whelan and, to a lesser extent, Gibson tend to play as part of a flat four. Any changes in midfield will have to involve a shift to five in the middle, or at least a more fluid link player to complement Keane or Doyle.

[Stuttgart88]

isn't it ironic that the above pair (far better than Whelan and Gibson in my opinion) have amassed more Premier League minutes than any other midfielders in our squad. Manuel Almunia and Scott Carson each have amassed more Premier League minutes than Shay Given.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd put it that Fahey and McCarthy may be the best option. Maybe regardless of who we have in CM we'll play without the ball because we're told to stand off. My personal preference is always a "ball winner / ball user" combo in midfield. When Keith Andrews played well we were generally a better team. I'm hoping to Jaysus that McCarthy plays a belter tomorrow.

[Noelys Guitar]

I know this is unlikely (but Trapatonni brought it up himself this morning in relation to Wigan). Why not allow McCarthy a free roll tomorrow. He is fit/skilful enough to help out the CM and make the runs into the box to help the front player/players. I don't think Trapatonni can stop McCarthy moving around the pitch as he did in his cameo against Macedonia). I'm just hoping McCarthy has such an affect on the team that he has to play. In regards to the position we will finish. We will win in Macedonia 13 points. Beat Slovakia at home (our record down the years playing in early September is outstanding) 16 points. Draw with a stuttering Russia away 17. Beat Armenia and Andorra 23. Its going to be 22 or 23 depending on the Russian away game.

[Kingdom]

Teamv
Pld W D L GF GA GD Pts
Slovakia 5 3 1 1 5 4 +1 10
Russia 5 3 1 1 6 3 +3 10
Ireland 5 3 1 1 9 6 +3 10
Armenia 5 2 2 1 9 4 +5 8
M/donia 5 1 1 3 5 6 −1 4
Andorra 5 0 0 5 1 12 −11 0

This group has proven to be one of the more unpredictable that we've been in - it's right up there with the 06 qualifiers in terms of teams taking points off each other... we really should flourish in such a group given how we would normally dispatch the middling teams home and be relatively solid away from home.

Halfway gone, there's 4 teams in it, and deservedly so all things considered. Armenia should be applauded for their performance so far, even if it could go tits up at the end; we might have caught a break playing them first up, but we did enough to deserve our win, while they did extremely well to take 3 thoroughly deserved points off the Slovaks, and withstood a serious amount of pressure to get a point off their neighbours. Still, they've to go to St Petersburg, Zilina and it's hard to believe they'll be in control of their own destiny come last day in Dublin. As much as our game over in Skopje is crucial, the return between Russia and Armenia is equally important to the group - I'd actually say it's more important. I would expect a Russia win having seen the highlights of Sat, but any positive result for Armenia will give us a real chance at topping the group.
Slovakia, even taking into account that they'll still be top after round 6 (the return v Andorra), are the ones who've got more than they deserved. Humbled in Armenia, deserved nothing in Russia yet got three points, and let off the hook by us (no matter whats said we missed a sitter and a penalty - we should have won), they're doing better than they should be, but they've the toughest finish to all the teams. I really fancy us to clobber them over here, they then face Armenia and after the chastening experience they got in Yerevan, if they've been beaten by us, you couldn't imagine they'd be too confident facing the men in yellow.
Russia are obviously the worry. There was a flattering gloss on our scoreline, and as already mentioned only for the ridiculously poor finishing against Slovakia, the group would be far more clear cut. Sept 6th will be massive - it should decide who tops the group, and if we could even take a point, there is a reasonable chance we could outpoint them over the final two games (they play Slovakia the night we play Armenia).

There's too many variables right now, I've always believed in taking each game at a time, each round at a time in this group, but I believe it will be between us and the Ruskies to decide the top two. We beat Macedonia, and things become so much simpler.

[paul_oshea]

are you saying we could lose in Russia Noely?

i agree about Mccarthy hoping he gets really stuck in and makes himself a definite starter against Scotland and norn iron but i feel the same as junior in that i think his impact will be gradual rather than instant but would love to be prove wrong starting with tomorrow.

[Kingdom]

Beat Slovakia at home (our record down the years playing in early September is outstanding) 16 points

While I agree with the jist of your post, the highlighted bit isn't exactly true......

Wc2010: w v Georgia; Dv Montenegro; w v Cyprus
EC2008: L v Germany ; L v Czech Rep; D vs Slovakia
WC 2006: w v Cyprus; D v Switzerland; L v France
EC 2004: L v Russia; D v Russia

[Stuttgart88]

I think he meant our September record against Cyprus is excellent.

Don't forget Slovakia needed a 90th minute winner to beat Macedonia. Their young guy Weiss on loan at Rangers is a lovely player. Even still, how did they win in Russia?

We need to focus on ourselves, nobody else. The future is the next game, as has been said above. 5 wins guarantees we win the group. You can only win all 5 if you win the first one.

[paul_oshea]

no offence kingdom but you thought we would clobber Macedonia too. i think if Slovakia are still in it when they play Russia.that could be a big problem for us if both teams need a draw

[Stuttgart88]

Fine margins though, Paul. If Long had taken a pretty clear chance to make it 3-0, that would have been a clobbering. Given the lead we took, if we had more "moral courage" we should have clobbered them. Instead we made a dog's dinner of being ahead, as usual.

[Stuttgart88]

no offence kingdom but you thought we would clobber Macedonia too. i think if Slovakia are still in it when they play Russia.that could be a big problem for us if both teams need a drawmaybe so, but right now I'd take a draw - 2 points dropped by both teams would be a good result for us. I'm too tired to do the maths, but in all likelihood the situation where they both need a draw would mean that we have messed up. Not unlikely so!

[Willum101]

I like Willum101. A card-carrying member of the Positive Club.

Hopefully he & Freoch can add to their meagre post totals.

I love this team. Even when they play muck! Regardless of the performance I will still come back and pray we can qualify for something! Just imagine the craic next year lads!

We have a great shot in this group. Scrappy performances and some help from Armenia will see us top this group. Put it this way, we will NEVER get a better chance

[Noelys Guitar]

While I agree with the jist of your post, the highlighted bit isn't exactly true......

Wc2010: w v Georgia; Dv Montenegro; w v Cyprus
EC2008: L v Germany ; L v Czech Rep; D vs Slovakia
WC 2006: w v Cyprus; D v Switzerland; L v France
EC 2004: L v Russia; D v Russia

Our Record in September for the years 1983 to 2004 Won 16 Drew 8 Lost 3 which is phenominal. We did not lose a game in September for 11 years between 1983 and 1994. We beat Russia(soviets), Holland, Croatia, Yugoslavia and Hungary+others. We drew with Holland (away), West Germany, Russia, Belgium(away), Switzerland(away), Hungary(away) NI(away)+other. Good month for us.

[Kingdom]

no offence kingdom but you thought we would clobber Macedonia too. i think if Slovakia are still in it when they play Russia.that could be a big problem for us if both teams need a draw

As Stutt mentions below, we're coasting at 2-0, Robbie has missed what I classify as a chance as he's unfit, Long misses a real good chance (or doesn't tee up mcgeady - I prefer the latter), we're then 3 zip and you're looking at tacking on more scores. Same in Slovakia, we are giving ourselves opportunities, it's almost like that isn't appreciated - it's a horrendous inability to take those chances when they're begging that is killing us.

It's a fine line.

And I don't take any offence Paul. I'm always the optimist. I also thought we'd win and McGeady would score, and put my money where my mouth was, while you, eh, whinged. How did that work out again? Mwhahahahahaha. :D

[Kingdom]

I love this team. Even when they play muck! Regardless of the performance I will still come back and pray we can qualify for something! Just imagine the craic next year lads!

We have a great shot in this group. Scrappy performances and some help from Armenia will see us top this group. Put it this way, we will NEVER get a better chance

We will, we always will. I think people have said that for 4/5 campaigns now. Agree though I love this group also, the little scamps.

[Kingdom]

Out Record in September for the years 1983 to 2004 Won 16 Drew 8 Lost 3 which is phenominal. We did not lose a game in September for 11 years between 1983 and 1994. We beat Russia(soviets), Holland, Croatia, Yugoslavia and Hungary+others. We drew with Holland (away), West Germany, Russia, Belgium(away), Switzerland(away), Hungary(away) NI(away)+other. Good month for us.

Noely, surely you'll appreciate that I'm a relative whippersnapper in comparison to the likes of you, East Terracer, the Geezer and selected others. September hasn't been as kind to my generation as has been to yours (on average).

[Noelys Guitar]

Noely, surely you'll appreciate that I'm a relative whippersnapper in comparison to the likes of you, East Terracer, the Geezer and selected others. September hasn't been as kind to my generation as has been to yours (on average).

I ducked when Lincoln was shot Kingdom.

[Noelys Guitar]

The way we go about things it is perfectly feasible for us to draw with Slovakia and a few days later go and beat Russia away.

[French Toasht]

Can't help thinking the victory on Saturday night is something of a poison chalice.

The victory seems to be blinding everyone from the fact that the performance wasn't up to scratch and the scoreline doesn't tell the whole story. If I hear another "But you can't argue with Trap, he's getting results", I think I'll explode. What results? Macedonia? Whoop de friggin doo ... If we have genuine aspirations for qualifying for the Euros and competing with Europe's best then the likes of Macedonia should never be allowed dictate the game, the way they did in the second half in Dublin. Yes, there are no easy games in Europe but some are a lot easier than others, and some should be put away in a lot more professional manner than we did.

As regards Macedonia away game being heralded as the crucial game of the campaign (that seems to happen every game we play nowadays), I actually think its the least consequential game we have left. Win, lose or draw, our fate will not be decided by what happens in Skopje ...Our fate will be decided by the outcome of the Slovakia/ Russia double header in September.

If we are to actually win a group we will have to do something we have not done since 1987 and actually beat a big team away. I think it is quite telling that we are bottom of the table in terms of head to heads between ourselves Russia and Slovakia. It would be great to see us freed of the shackles of conservatism that has so many times seen us play out for draws against the bigger sides in matches where they were there for the taking. Its this psyche that has resulted in all those glorious failures we have become accustomed to.

Wouldn't it be great to see some of that "throw caution to the wind" style football we saw in Paris. By playing within the straight jacket system we play in now, I predict it will be another near but yet so far outcome.

[geysir]

I thought that when Noely wrote 'down through the years', he should have written 'as I have witnessed down through the decades' .

[Stuttgart88]

Macedonia away is vitally important, because it's the next game. Then the next game after that is the important one.

I'd love to see us take the game to the opposition too and throw away this stand-off-them nonsense, but I'd also like to see us have a midfielder we can genuinely expect to compete in CM.

The result is absolutely not a poisoned chalice. I haven't read one person here who was happy with the way the game panned out, or was "blinded by the result". We played well in parts, very badly in other parts. Maybe you're referring to the folk at home though, if so fair enough.

I don't think we have "played out for draws" that recently: we did in Sofia probably, but not at home to Bulgaria or Italy or even in Slovakia. Getting pegged back and not taking chances are not the same as playing out for a draw. The performance in Slovakia was good enough for a win, but it didn't yield one.

Is our approach conservative? Yes. Is it too conservative? I think so. Would throwing caution to the wind improve results? I'd like to think so but it's anyone's guess.

I think those of us who have been watching the BIG "down through the decades" know just how hard it is to get out of the groups. We used to play engaging football, and with good players, and it got us nowhere!

[paul_oshea]

FT, don't worry there are some of us on here, who use previous results and performances to analyse and predict(succesfully somtimes too like the 2 -1) our future games. The old cliche of you will take the win, no one remembers the performance but the result is clearly not true, because we have had too many poor performances at this stage that we remember them all. In fact I put down these wins to a certain amount of luck which we know Trap has, because if you look at the last campaign we came through some games with these poor performances with the win, but ultimately when it mattered against France at home, they punished us, this sitting back and giving too much respect proved our undoing and showed in Paris had we done the same in Dublin we would have been through to the World cup and no one would have cared about Henrys Handball.

The reason macedonia is so vitally important is not because its the next game, but it relieves us of some pressure going into the next 2 games, which obviouslly makes it easier to get a better result.

Kingdom don't be so smug, if you put your money where your mouth is, then you didnt win anything, you predicted 3-0, I predicted 2 - 1. Mwwhaahahahahaha :D Touché

[Stuttgart88]

I predicted 2-1 too, lest you forget.

We all look at previous results and performances, some of us draw different comclusions. Mine (the right one :)) is that this would be a good team if we had a more competitive central midfield. We don't, so we live on the seat of our pants.

[Stuttgart88]

I thought France outplayed us in the second half in Dublin and a gritty performance just about kept us in it. We played well enough in the first half.

[paul_oshea]

ya i feel teh same, i think this is the first time in a long time we have had so many premiership regulars as well and its a lot more competitive now than it was 5+ years ago or even 3+ years ago.
But just because we say that a proper midfield would transform the team is no excuse for our current poor performances our reasons to be blinded by that fact.

i thought we let them outplay us until the last 10 mins where we created 2 great chances. Im sure in france there was an element of them sitting back too but had we pressed them as much in dublin and as high up the field then im sure the result would have been different.

[elroy]

The way we go about things it is perfectly feasible for us to draw with Slovakia and a few days later go and beat Russia away.

I hear ya, does anyone else feel more confident watching Ireland away from home these days than at home. We seem to play better when the impetus isnt on us. Im not saying we are going to win in Russia but win in Macedonia is a possibility.

[Kingdom]

Kingdom don't be so smug, if you put your money where your mouth is, then you didnt win anything, you predicted 3-0, I predicted 2 - 1. Mwwhaahahahahaha :D Touché

You'rewrong there POS, because I didn't say we'd win 3-0 anywhere. And I did back the one thing I was sure of, with real money too, and the feel of those 50's was lovely.

[paul_oshea]

You'rewrong there POS, because I didn't say we'd win 3-0 anywhere. And I did back the one thing I was sure of, with real money too, and the feel of those 50's was lovely.


Ireland by 3.
McGeady, Whelan, Keane, McCarthy .


Correct you didn't, my mistake, you did say Ireland by 3, i took that for some reason to mean 3 - 0. You got keane and mcgeady among the scorers and also mccarthy and whelan - but you originally had put in Walters who wasnt even there!!, but im going by your prediction, that you went for mcgeady first scorer and Ireland to win by 3, what odds did you get on that then ;) :D

Unless of course you didn't go with Ireland by 3 and put your money where your mouth is....or you went with the 2-1 prediction and mcgeady first scorer! Geysir said something about you getting 4/1 on mcgeady first scorer and ireland to win(that seems fairly big odds, was it ireland to win 2-1 :D )

[geysir]

Geysir said something about you getting 40/1 on mcgeady first scorer and ireland to win(that seems fairly big odds, was it ireland to win 2-1 :D )
Geysir never said anything remotely like that.
Consider the ridiculousness of those 40/1 odds and consider would I say something so ridiculous?
The bell ringing in your head should have been as loud as Big Ben :)

[paul_oshea]

sorry geysir typo updated. very busy at work. 4/1 on ireland to win and the fact that mcgeady hadn't scored in 38 games, as you said previously (paraphrasing) he was destined to score, is quite high. Anyway well done geysir, for not taking your post to seriouslly about winning by 3 and being realistic and getting some money out of it.

[SwanVsDalton]

I seem to remember 2-1 being the consensus. But everyone's too blind to have seen it. ;)

[geysir]

Anyway well done geysir, for not taking your post to seriouslly about winning by 3 and being realistic and getting some money out of it.
You can call Kingdom a lot of things but don't call him geysir.

[geysir]

FWIW I thought we would win handy enough, stroll the game. We suffered from losing our MVP, Doyle, so early in the game.

I think we did win handy enough, strolled most of the first half and strolled the crucial last 18 minutes after the 75 min mark.
Very impressive ball retention from both McGeady and Duff in those last 18 minutes.

For me the end of the game was a high five, a cause for celebration, a great result and a commanding performance (despite the 47% possession stat), some jitters, overall a performance which we can improve upon.

[Predator]

The victory over Macedonia is a cause for celebration all right, but I felt we should have tried to put 3 or 4 past them and I thought we might have after 2-0. It's always good to have goal-difference in your favour.

[Noelys Guitar]

I think those of us who have been watching the BIG "down through the decades" know just how hard it is to get out of the groups. We used to play engaging football, and with good players, and it got us nowhere!
For the first time in a long time we got a few breaks on Saturday. Russia drawing was a great start. We won 2-1 with a weakened team and matched Russia's and Slovakia's results. Back in 1987 Stapo's 9.8 to get the peno in Belgium was the break we never seemed to get. Everyone for obvious reasons remembers Gary McKays goal but it was the peno against Belgium that signalled a change of fortune. Armenia have been great for us (so far) in this group. I definetely feel a change of fortune coming our way. We have got ourselves back to the top of the group and are in a position once more to take advantage of any breaks that come our way. Does anyone remember the two draws at home to Belgium and Scotland in Jacks first campaign?

[Wolfie]

The win was of utmost importance, the performance and indeed the margin less so.

Macedonia home and away is more about keeping ourselves in the race to fight it out with Russia and Slovakia in the autumn.

I wouldn't bemoan the lack of a cricket score as other nations have turned nicking barely deserved results into a fine art - England have won ugly on many occasions and the match is soon forgotten.

We deserved the win and I've viewed Macedonia - home and away - as a difficult obstacle to negotiate where we'll earn to right to battle it out in the autumn.

[paul_oshea]

For me the end of the game was a high five, a cause for celebration, a great result and a commanding performance (despite the 47% possession stat), some jitters, overall a performance which we can improve upon.

That 47% could cause us serious problems in Macedonia though, i think thats the point some are trying to make.

[Wolfie]

Does anyone remember the two draws at home to Belgium and Scotland in Jacks first campaign?

The Belgium game was a tense game with no a major amount of goal attempts. I've a vague recollection of Liam Brady making a break into their box and having a shot blocked on the line?????

Two notable results that were huge for us in that group early on - drew away with Belgium and beat Scotland away.

[geysir]

That 47% could cause us serious problems in Macedonia though, i think thats the point some are trying to make.
Yes, but you are habituated at looking for miserable outcomes.
Our away performances under Trap put us favourites to at least get a draw there. Our away performances are trademarked by a will to win and enough grit to at least get a draw. Not only will we perform more credibly than in past efforts against Macedonis but we will give Russia a much different game in Moscow.

[Noelys Guitar]

The Belgium game was a tense game with no a major amount of goal attempts. I've a vague recollection of Liam Brady making a break into their box and having a shot blocked on the line?????

Two notable results that were huge for us in that group early on - drew away with Belgium and beat Scotland away.

Slovakia are arguably Scotland and Belgium are Russia in my ridiculously far fetched equation??????????

We may as well crow bar a comparison that doesn't really exist!!

Correct. A great double save from Bonner from Ceulamans helped that day. In the home game against Scotland Stapo missed a great chance with the last kick of the game. Tha ball ended up down on Sanydmount strand.

[tetsujin1979]

You can call Kingdom a lot of things but don't call him geysir.
or Shirley!

[Wolfie]

Correct. A great double save from Bonner from Ceulamans helped that day. In the home game against Scotland Stapo missed a great chance with the last kick of the game. Tha ball ended up down on Sanydmount strand.

It all turned OK in the end, eh?????? How many times have we been able to say that!!!

[paul_oshea]

Yes, but you are habituated at looking for miserable outcomes.
Our away performances under Trap put us favourites to at least get a draw there. Our away performances are trademarked by a will to win and enough grit to at least get a draw. Not only will we perform more credibly than in past efforts against Macedonis but we will give Russia a much different game in Moscow.

I might be but those are the outcomes that have occured most often in the past.

I don't know what you base this Russia away day on, but its not the facts, if they destroyed us here and they are very strong in russia, a draw would be a very good result now.

I see us getting 5 or 7 points from Russia/Macedonia/Slovakia with 5 the more likely. Thats hardly pessimistic.

[geysir]

but those are the outcomes that have occured most often in the past.
When one refers to the form of past away games, the games are certainly in the past.
The recent past, as in the last away game and the distant past, to the first 2 away games from the last campaign.
Lets not forget the September factor as well.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think 47% is one of our better possession stats of recent vintage.

[shakermaker1982]

If we get 7 points from those 3 games we should top the group. I think we'll sneak a win out in Macedonia like we did out in Armenia.

[SwanVsDalton]

It is one game at a time, but if I was to pin-point a game it'd probably be the Slovakia match. There's a chance Slovakia will have shaken off their post-World Cup hangover by then, but I think we'll win which would virtually guarantee second place. Then fly out to Moscow on a high and with a bit of pressure off, ready to put it up to the Ruskies.

If we don't get a win, or worse lose, against Slovakia then I can't see us raising ourselves for Russia and we'll probably be out.

[geysir]

It has to be one game at a time.
Lose to Macedonia, then it would be extremely doubtful that we find the 'moral courage' to step up to a higher qualification bar and get a win in Russia.