Euro 2012 Qualifying Group B - General Discussion

[Stuttgart88]

I just can't see us taking anything in Moscow. That stat about Russia only losing 3 competitive matches at home since WWII puts the enormity of the task in perspective. One of those was recently against...Slovakia.

Point taken in general though.

[DannyInvincible]

I just can't see us taking anything in Moscow. That stat about Russia only losing 3 competitive matches at home since WWII puts the enormity of the task in perspective.

A draw is all we need in Moscow to top the group, assuming we take nine points from the other games. The chances of taking nine from nine in those other three would be very favourable, I feel. Andorra away is a certain three. Armenia in Dublin on the last day will have little to play for. The wind will have been taken out of their sales. And I'd fancy us at home against them regardless, even if they were going to go all out for a victory. Slovakia at home is obviously the crucial one, but Slovakia have been a bit inconsistent and, again, we have the home factor in our favour.

More realistically, we should be looking at how many games Russia have drawn at home since World War II and taking some confidence from that. I'd imagine they've drawn plenty more games at home in all that time than a mere three.

By the way, attempting to work out all the possible scenarios, I don't know whether I love or hate this stage of the group.

[Stuttgart88]

Yes, I'll be pinning my hopes on those back-to-back draws in Moscow in 1953.

I think a better omen is that we'll be playing against a Dutch manager. We have a great record against Dutch managers in September in a year beginning with a 2 and ending in a 1. :) It'll be 10 years very nearly to the day. That it's been 10 years isn't a great stat though.

I think Trap may well have the savvy to get the better of Advocaat, who won the first round.

[Bottle of Tonic]

Sure Danny its pointless speculating at this stage seeing as you already jinxed it with the 'all of us finish on 22 points but we come third' scenario. Its not that mad a scenario either.

I wish you never said it!

[French Toasht]

A draw is all we need in Moscow to top the group, assuming we take nine points from the other games.

I disagree. I really think the Russians will have the bit between their teeth now, and assuming like you say we take one point in Moscow (which I just can't see in light of the way they ripped us to shreds in Dublin, the hostile atmosphere and the fact that they are the only team in the group with very technically gifted players, capable of cutting open our rigid catenaccio style), you must be assuming that Russia will drop points in one of their 3 remaining games. Andorra and Macedonia, I just can't see it and I think they will beat Slovakia in Bratislava. That would leave us both on level points and their head to head being better meaning they'd top the group.

[DannyInvincible]

I disagree. I really think the Russians will have the bit between their teeth now, and assuming like you say we take one point in Moscow (which I just can't see in light of the way they ripped us to shreds in Dublin, the hostile atmosphere and the fact that they are the only team in the group with very technically gifted players, capable of cutting open our rigid catenaccio style), you must be assuming that Russia will drop points in one of their 3 remaining games. Andorra and Macedonia, I just can't see it and I think they will beat Slovakia in Bratislava. That would leave us both on level points and their head to head being better meaning they'd top the group.

Sorry, you're right. If we were to draw in Russia and they were to win their other three games as well as us, we'd finish second. I think I had Little Hobo's analysis in mind and maybe overlooked or took it for granted the suggestion they'd drop two points away to Slovakia.

If we were to draw in Russia, however, our chances of taking the automatic runner-up spot with 17 points in total would be pretty high. That's not something I'd considered earlier, mind.

Edit: 17 points in total after results against Andorra would have been discounted to rank the second-placed teams throughout the groups, I mean. Goal difference would also come into play if such a scenario were to arise.

[DannyInvincible]

The best second-placed team during UEFA qualification for the World Cup managed 16 points: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(UEFA)#Ranking_o f_second-placed_teams

[geysir]

Well Danny, I'm very glad you have stepped forward to work out our chances of qualifying as the best runner up with 16 or 17 points.
You must have missed the invitation on page 42. We need somebody smart.

[Stuttgart88]

McDonnell complains that Trap doesn't go to enough games in England. If Trap did go to more games in England, who else might he have checked out that might feature in the squad? I can only think of Hoolahan. Trap could have gone to a hundred games this season (all competitions) and not seen anything worthwhile in, say, Andy Reid or Stephen Ireland. He knows Noel Hunt who can consider himself a little unlucky. Jay Tabb rarely features and was in a Trap squad anyway, as was McPhail. Paddy McCarthy perhaps.

Ian Harte he has made a judgment on. Wembley may well have proved him right.

Pretty much everyone I can think of in contention for a place has been given a run out, or has been called up.

[Stuttgart88]

So we really want Montenegro to start effing up?

10 points from our next 4 games is very doable. So is 7 though!

[Charlie Darwin]

I think Montenegro already did, drawing with Bulgaria on Saturday. They'll need to get at least 4 points from England at home and Switzerland away to qualify automatically.

[BonnieShels]

If Trap did go to more games in England, who else might he have checked out that might feature in the squad? I can only think of Hoolahan. Trap could have gone to a hundred games this season (all competitions) and not seen anything worthwhile in, say, Andy Reid or Stephen Ireland. He knows Noel Hunt who can consider himself a little unlucky. Jay Tabb rarely features and was in a Trap squad anyway, as was McPhail. Paddy McCarthy perhaps.

Ian Harte he has made a judgment on. Wembley may well have proved him right.

Pretty much everyone I can think of in contention for a place has been given a run out, or has been called up.

That's my point. He was complaining that he doesn't go to enough games in England. But really what the hell more could he possibly see or know that he already doesn't. As I said it before in the recent past... I think the old b*stardo knows what he's up to.


So we really want Montenegro to start effing up?

10 points from our next 4 games is very doable. So is 7 though!

As is 6. :(

I think we'll get our ten. Though I think we really should be aiming for 12. I like being unrealistic and greedy.
Now, whereas we need Montenegro to start fupping up I think I enjoy it more when the Tans are all over the shop. It makes SSN much more interesting. The fatigue issue is only the funniest excuse I have ever seen at the end of a long hard season. Maybe just maybe ye're shoite!

Two more things though:
1. we need to stop thinking that the game v Russia was all about them being magnificent. It had a lot more to do with us being beyond crap for the first hour-ish. And the fact that poor Paul Green had to man the midfield on his own after Whelan went missing. If we had've gotten up Russia earlier on in the game then we would have at least gotten a point out of that game. Never mind. I'll settle for 3 in Russia and a Paris-like performance.

2. This multi-quote jobby is only mighty.

[geysir]

I have to live with the fact that I learned how to do that multi quote thing, from Stutts.

[carloz]

And the fact that poor Paul Green had to man the midfield on his own after Whelan went missing.
Well I am glad this has been pointed out. Green got dogs abuse for that game, but Whelan was the experienced midfielder and he was simply brutal all game.

[BonnieShels]

I have to live with the fact that I learned how to do that multi quote thing, from Stutts.

Me too! :)


Well I am glad this has been pointed out. Green got dogs abuse for that game, but Whelan was the experienced midfielder and he was simply brutal all game.

It has been said here since. It doesn't excuse his obvious limitations but that night had nothing to do with him.

Also didn't Lawro pick up an injury in that game which fupped him up for the rest of the game.

[Stuttgart88]

I have to live with the fact that I learned how to do that multi quote thing, from Stutts.The shame. And I only learnt how to do it a week ago. Still you taught me how to do the link overwrite thingy.

This summer I am making it my mission to learn to type with more than just the index finger of my right hand.

[BonnieShels]

The shame. And I only learnt how to do it a week ago. Still you taught me how to do the link overwrite thingy.



2 Students with one admission. I always wondered what the multi-quote symbol was actually for.

[Stuttgart88]

I used to see others doing it, and I saw the button, but through trial and error couldn't figure it out. I even tried the foot.ie instructions page and couldn't figure it. So I googled it. That didn't work either. So then I did it by accident one day.

[BonnieShels]

I used to see others doing it, and I saw the button, but through trial and error couldn't figure it out. I even tried the foot.ie instructions page and couldn't figure it. So I googled it. That didn't work either. So then I did it by accident one day.

So trial and error didn't work and neither did the instructions...

And women wonder why we never look at instructions and ask for directions?

[Stuttgart88]

Nah, a woman wouldn't find the instructions helpful either. This is what it says in the Support section:

If you want to post replies to multiple posts you can select them by clicking the multi quote button . This button will change to indicate that you've selected it. Clicking post reply will then bring you to the full editor with all the posts quoted.

I underlined "post reply". Pressing this doesn't work for me - but pressing the "quote" button does.

[geysir]

I just thought, if Stutts can do it then I can.

[French Toasht]

With the benefit of hindsight would people have preferred the fixtures that we are left with as a result of UEFAs random draw or the fixtures that were 90% decided among the 6 associations themselves.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/the-road-to-nowhere-2101188.html

Must say I would have preferred what the associations had (almost) come up with themselves.

Firstly they were more fan friendly with two away double headers (Russia & Armenia) and (Macedonia & Slovakia).

We would have avoided the prospect of the Macedonia in the June heat (granted we past that test)

But most importantly we wouldn't have had the two double header weeks with Russia and Slovakia (which is a case of mission unaccomplished from the first leg of that test.)

Its a moot point now of course but still no harm in engaging in a hypothetical analysis.

[BonnieShels]

With the benefit of hindsight would people have preferred the fixtures that we are left with as a result of UEFAs random draw or the fixtures that were 90% decided among the 6 associations themselves.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/the-road-to-nowhere-2101188.html

Must say I would have preferred what the associations had (almost) come up with themselves.

Firstly they were more fan friendly with two away double headers (Russia & Armenia) and (Macedonia & Slovakia).

We would have avoided the prospect of the Macedonia in the June heat (granted we past that test)

But most importantly we wouldn't have had the two double header weeks with Russia and Slovakia (which is a case of mission unaccomplished from the first leg of that test.)

Its a moot point now of course but still no harm in engaging in a hypothetical analysis.

I'm happy enough with what we have to be honest. Bar the Russia game at home it has more or less gone to plan.
I prefer the campaign ending with the 2 weakest teams in the group as it means that if we have to knock the them for six we can make a fist of it.

I'd rather head into those games knowing what we have to do to qualify than say playing Andorra and Armenia over the next 2 games and then face Russia and Slovakia as our last 2.

To be honest, we always do well with our fixtures (I know UEFA set these... but...).
There seems to be an attitude within the FAI to get a home game and an away game against the other to bigger teams in just after the start of the campaign and have the returns just before the end of the campaign.

[Stuttgart88]

I'm happy enough with the timing. However, not only is it important to have everyone fit, we also need everyone playing. Last autumn we had too many players with very little club football under their belts. We need everyone available and match sharp.

If we get the win in Dublin we can go to Moscow absolutely brimming. Regardless of that result the last two games will be massive.

[DannyInvincible]

If we do manage to beat Slovakia at home, how do people reckon we should approach the Russian game in Moscow? Go for the win with the aim of ensuring that finishing top is within our own hands, but at the obvious risk of leaving ourselves vulnerable at the back and coming away with nothing, or play for a draw and hope Russia drop two points in Slovakia, although a draw could very likely ensure we qualify automatically as the best second-placed team anyway?

[pineapple stu]

If we draw in Moscow, we need Russia to lose in Slovakia; a draw'd be no good to us as they'd still be ahead of us on head-to-head.

If we beat Slovakia at home, coming away from Moscow with nothing isn't the end of the world; two wins in the last two games and we're guaranteed second in the group anyway.

Edit - sorry, the first bit is nonsense; Russia have already slipped up once. That actually makes it much more interesting alright. A draw might well be good enough; Russia seem generally shaky throughout this campaign (barring at Lansdowne, of course...)

[the bear]

agreed there stu the slovakia home game is the key now. hopefully we'l have dunne, sledge, doyle and duffer fit again. we are well capable of beating them.

[SwanVsDalton]

No matter what the result against Slovakia, we should be playing for the win. If anything we should play with even more freedom should we beat Slovakia, since we'll be well in control of second place.

[pineapple stu]

We should play the way we always do. And I think Trap, of all people, will stick to that.

I suppose it's open to debate whether we usually play for the win. :p

[DannyInvincible]

No matter what the result against Slovakia, we should be playing for the win. If anything we should play with even more freedom should we beat Slovakia, since we'll be well in control of second place.

Not entirely true if, say, the following not-all-that-unlikely scenario was to arise:

If we beat Slovakia, lose to Russia and win our other two, we'll finish on 22 points with 4 points from our 4 games against Russia and Slovakia.
If Slovakia lose to us but beat Russia and win their other two, they'll finish on 22 with 7 points from their 4 games against us and Russia.
If Russia lose to Slovakia but beat us and win their other two, they'll finish on 22 with 6 points from their 4 games against us and Slovakia.

That would leave us finishing third on 22 points.

[the bear]

i would like to see fahey come into the team for the slovakia match in center midfield. we should be looking to be more creative.

[SwanVsDalton]

Not entirely true if, say, the following not-all-that-unlikely scenario was to arise:

If we beat Slovakia, lose to Russia and win our other two, we'll finish on 22 points with 4 points from our 4 games against Russia and Slovakia.
If Slovakia lose to us but beat Russia and win their other two, they'll finish on 22 with 7 points from their 4 games against us and Russia.
If Russia lose to Slovakia but beat us and win their other two, they'll finish on 22 with 6 points from their 4 games against us and Slovakia.

That would leave us finishing third on 22 points.

If the thinking is becoming that complex, than revert to default - simply play to win.

[the bear]

Not entirely true if, say, the following not-all-that-unlikely scenario was to arise:

If we beat Slovakia, lose to Russia and win our other two, we'll finish on 22 points with 4 points from our 4 games against Russia and Slovakia.
If Slovakia lose to us but beat Russia and win their other two, they'll finish on 22 with 7 points from their 4 games against us and Russia.
If Russia lose to Slovakia but beat us and win their other two, they'll finish on 22 with 6 points from their 4 games against us and Slovakia.

That would leave us finishing third on 22 points.

basically this group could go any way really, we can't afford to slip up in any of the 4 games

[jbyrne]

will the Russia match be on the all weather pitch? I know slovakia won on it but isnt it a huge advantage for the home team?
i would be concerned about how we will cope with it. personnally i think all weather and grass pitches are worlds apart and i cant understand how Russia (or anyone) can be allowed play on them.

[BonnieShels]

If the thinking is becoming that complex, than revert to default - simply play to win.

great point.

Let's take it game-by-game though. Get a good run out against Croatia a good solid win against Slovakia and then who knows.

[SwanVsDalton]

great point.

Let's take it game-by-game though. Get a good run out against Croatia a good solid win against Slovakia and then who knows.

Absolutely. I think the double header's a real all or nothing - beat Slovakia and I'd really fancy us to upset the Russians. But if we go there absolutely needing to win, I'm not so confident.

[dotts101]

we have bein shaky enough in this group but trappatoni solid, so its old school ireland. yet i see us getting a good early goal against the slovaks and then the usual backs to the wall ireland. yet still confident of securing the 3points.

then comes russia, trap has us performing strong away from home, so i feel we can secure a point against an average russian team. remember 2002 and the horrible 4-2 defeat there. even then they were for the taking and in the return game at landsdown. BELIEVE!!!!

then comes the big trip to Andorra or should i say barcelona? i am confident that we have enough in the tank to break down a stubborn andorran team (in this campaign), not conceding as many as usual. Suprisingly giving it a go in games, including the aviva. should be a home away from home game with a big number of irish support following over.

then armenia at home? Full AVIVA (for once)(dont get the fai excited, they will hike the prices) 3points and qualification secure as russia will drop points in bratislava.

[French Toasht]

Interesting stat: The victory over Macedonia on Saturday night was only the second time in the 18 competitive matches under Traps reign where we have won by more than 1 goal. (The other occasion being our 3-1 victory over Andorra.)

That said, we have only lost twice in 18 matches, which is an extremely impressive stat.

[paul_oshea]

Can someone please explain the difference between revert to default - simply play to win i.e. win...but play it game by game.

These mean absoloutely nothing like most soccer cliches or dumb footballers coming out saying something totally obvious.

[Stuttgart88]

It's a game of two halves.

[the bear]

It's a game of two halves.

obviously it is at the end of the day, obviously

[DannyInvincible]

Half an hour into Russia's friendly with Cameroon in Austria and it's still 0-0. If anyone's interested in following it, there are working links here: http://www.myp2p.eu/broadcast.php?matchid=119108&part=sports or http://www.livefootballol.com/streaming/friendly/07-06-2011-cameroon-russia.html

[pineapple stu]

I think Montenegro already did, drawing with Bulgaria on Saturday. They'll need to get at least 4 points from England at home and Switzerland away to qualify automatically.
I think Sweden'll romp best second tbh. 3-0 up against Finland at half time.could easily see them getting 18 or 20 points overall (beating everyone else and drawing/beating Holland at home).

No way we'll come close to that obviously.

[DannyInvincible]

Just looking at that and I'd have to agree that the very least you'd expect Sweden to finish with is 24 points in the group (18 points in the second-place rankings table). And that would include a loss against Holland in Sweden. They've got Hungary, San Marino and Finland away otherwise. If they slipped up and drew with either Hungary or Finland and went on to lose to Holland, we'd have a very realistic chance, but it's not really that likely, is it?

Russia and Cameroon drew 0-0 this evening, by the way.

[MeathDrog]

F*ck it, we're gonna top this group.

[SwanVsDalton]

Can someone please explain the difference between revert to default - simply play to win i.e. win...but play it game by game.

These mean absoloutely nothing like most soccer cliches or dumb footballers coming out saying something totally obvious.

Can you explain what 'win...but play it game by game' means? Do you mean take it game by game? Why have the win in front of it?

Obviously it just means we should be looking to win the game and forget about permutations at the end of qualifying (so it's quite specific and does actually mean something). And since when was 'revert to default' a cliche outside of computer programming?

Don't know what sort of bad day your having but judging by this and your occasional grumpy post over in the match thread, you must be having a howler of a day.

[Stuttgart88]

F*ck it, we're gonna top this group.Mods, can we ban MeathDrog for that post? Make him watch George Hamilton videos for a week.

[gastric]

Begrudgingly, I have to agree with you Stutts. We have to put results before entertainment and because of this, we should be proud of recent results and contrast where we are at now, compared to under Stan. However, in the back of my mind I keep asking myself, is this a team capable of captivating a nation? The answer presently would be no and would explain many of the low attendances of late. Maybe qualification for the Euro Finals might help, but the jury is still out on the team's ability to engage the nation.

[SwanVsDalton]

Begrudgingly, I have to agree with you Stutts. We have to put results before entertainment and because of this, we should be proud of recent results and contrast where we are at now, compared to under Stan. However, in the back of my mind I keep asking myself, is this a team capable of captivating a nation? The answer presently would be no and would explain many of the low attendances of late. Maybe qualification for the Euro Finals might help, but the jury is still out on the team's ability to engage the nation.

I think a big result would captivate the nation though. McCarthy's team didn't really capture attention in terms of the quality of its football, but because they beat Yugoslavia, Croatia and, of course, Holland. Back-to-back victories in September would go some way to getting the nation engaged again. At the moment the jury is still out, but it's mainly because doubts exist about whether we can beat big teams in big games.

[Stuttgart88]

Screw the nation if they don't want to engage with this team. We're Ireland. We can't compete with Man United or Liverpool for quality, glamour or competitive context. We can't just invite the same big 6 teams to Dublin every year like they do in the rugby, or make up a competition from four countries and call it the European Cup. We have to earn our corn against the likes of Macedonia and Armenia and once every four years or so we earn the right to a meaningful game against a big team. That's the way it is.