Euro 2012 Qualifying Group B - General Discussion

[Stuttgart88]

Edmundo,

I'd add that regardless of the Armenia v Macedonia result, a draw v. Armenia will see us in second as long as Slovakia don't win both their last 2 games. Or we can even draw in Andorra, as long as we win at home to Armenia.

Anyway, simple enough. Win in Andorra and then look at the table.

[pineapple stu]

Interestingly, as it stands (and this is pretty much guaranteed to change), our play-off opponents are Sweden.

Wonder how often it's happened that the play-off opponents then get drawn against each other in the next campaign.

[holidaysong]

Is there not a draw for the playoffs?

[davey]

Remember we played a friendly in Norway and S. Reid & Whelan bossed midfield and we played the game in Norway's half - until the heavens opened? God, that seems ages ago now. Paul's right, just sitting doesn't work. We need to be aggressive winning the ball back, but are we good enough?

Part of our problem is that our best players include our front two (both of whom have egos) so it's hard to drop one to change midfield tactics. Likewise we have good wide players who are hard to drop. That means we're stuck with 4-4-2, unless management is strong and drops a big name.

Completely true. I've been wracking my brains to think of a better way for us to play 4-4-2 and keep coming back to Stephen Reid. I know he retired but he has hinted apparently he might come back if we were stuck. Well we're stuck with mediocre Central midfielders. Reid always looked a better ball winner than Whelen/Andrews combined. Probably wishful thinking but would be great to have another option for the system we play. Lets face it, Trap's not going to change now.

[pineapple stu]

Is there not a draw for the playoffs?
It's seeded anyway; I'm assuming it's 1 v 5, 2 v 6, etc. I might have made that up though!

[paul_oshea]

I think you did. We got drawn against France.

[Closed Account 2]

I'm fairly certain it's split top 4 ranked, bottom 4 ranked, and anyone from the top 4 can be drawn against anyone from the bottom 4.

[pineapple stu]

Fairy nuff. Thought they'd made it more see-through (read - rigged in the better teams' favour) after the last time, but must have been wrong.

Annoyingly, if Robbie had scored that penalty in Trnava, then we'd be the best second-place team at the moment (granted, other countries would have a game in hand).

[bwagner]

team id like to see against andorra.
Given
O'Shea St.Ledger O'Dea Clark
S Reid
Whelan Mc Carthy Duff
Long Keane

Mc Geady and Hunt to come and mix it up after 60 - 70 mins

[geysir]

Fairy nuff. Thought they'd made it more see-through (read - rigged in the better teams' favour) after the last time, but must have been wrong.

Annoyingly, if Robbie had scored that penalty in Trnava, then we'd be the best second-place team at the moment (granted, other countries would have a game in hand).
If every contending team claimed their stonewall missed opportunity, probably we would be in the same place as we are now.

[DannyInvincible]

The play-off draw is an open one in so far as the eight teams will be split into two groups of four - one seeded and one not - and paired against one another randomly from those two groups. The four runners-up with the best positions in the UEFA team coefficient ranking system will be seeded and will play their second legs at home.

See article 7.07: http://www.uefa.com/multimediafiles/download/competitions/euro/91/87/57/918757_download.pdf


"7.07 The eight remaining runners-up contest play-off matches. The four ties are determined by means of a draw. The four runners-up with the best position in the UEFA national team coefficient ranking system (see Annex I, paragraph 1.2.2) are seeded for the draw. If any of the teams in question have the same coefficient, the criteria listed in paragraph 7.02 apply. The play-offs are played according to the knockout system, with each team playing each opponent twice, in home and away matches. The seeded teams play the return match at home. The teams which score the greater aggregate of goals in the two matches qualify for the final tournament. Otherwise, the provisions of paragraph 7.08 apply."


There was me doubting those stats & projections by Castrol that Danny put up the other day!

Win our 2 games and it's at least a play off. I'd have taken that at HT yesterday when we couldn't get out of our own half!

Well, to an extent, you'd be right to doubt them. Oddly, Castrol have lowered our chances of qualifying after yesterday and now predict Slovakia to finish 5th in the group behind Macedonia. That isn't even mathematically possible! http://www.castrolfootball.com/calculators/groupcalculator/index.php?team=9#group_predictor


I was chatting to a lad(PIs cousin) last night, and that rumour about Doyle was true.

He certainly didn't look happy last night coming off, but Trap got it spot on in my opinion.

What was the rumour? That he was taking the huff over Long being favoured initially for Slovakia/being substituted in both games? Who's PI, by the way?


The 81 possible Group B outcomes:
http://greenscene.me/2011/09/possible-euro-2012-group-b-outcomes/

Your brain will melt.

Haha, Jesus. How did you manage that? I like the casual and understated nature of the comment:

"Hard to actually read in detail, but it shows how a lot hinges on the last few matches."

[tetsujin1979]

The 81 possible Group B outcomes:
http://greenscene.me/2011/09/possible-euro-2012-group-b-outcomes/

Your brain will melt.
my attempt to make the permutations and combinations easier to understand (or not. actually, just not): https://sites.google.com/site/tetsujin1979/uefa2012qualifyinggroupb
(this is based on the assumption that Ireland and Russia both beat Andorra in their remaining games)

[paul_oshea]

The superfluous use of yellow.

But the power of colour tets :)

Good work.

[geysir]

What was the rumour? That he was taking the huff over Long being favoured initially for Slovakia/being substituted in both games? Who's PI, by the way
Surely you don't doubt Paul's rumour verification criteria?

[tetsujin1979]

The superfluous use of yellow.

But the power of colour tets :)

Good work.
changed it to orange.
stupid HTML orange, mind, but orange nonetheless

[paul_oshea]

Surely you don't doubt Paul's rumour verification criteria?

The Sunday Times, not my rumour :)

I posted it on the Ireland v Slovakia thread previously.

Come on Wise one, keep up :)

Reading a Quote from Given that the point Ireland got "means its still in our hands" we couldn't afford to lose, is alarming to me. Drawing to Russia, only put second back into our hands only (first not really back in our hands) because slovakia lost. Very worrying to think our players, and obviously our manager are not aware of the actual situation.

[geysir]

The Sunday Times, not my rumour :)

I posted it on the Ireland v Slovakia thread previously.

Come on Wise one, keep up :)
I never claimed it was your rumor Paul, I claimed you had a rumor verification (cough …splutter) criteria.
That does not even remotely imply that you were the source of the rumour.

[AlaskaFox]

Re-ordered the massive permutations post to make it easier to understand:
http://greenscene.me/2011/09/possible-euro-2012-group-b-outcomes/

[mypost]

Annoyingly, if Robbie had scored that penalty in Trnava, then we'd be the best second-place team at the moment (granted, other countries would have a game in hand).

If the Russian keeper didn't set up Slovakia's winner in Moscow, if Macedonia scored their penalty and scored their disallowed goal against us in Skopje, or equalised in Dublin, if Ireland had scored our penalty in Zilina, if we hadn't scored an og against the Russians in Dublin, if we got another penalty against them in the last minute, or if Russia had scored once yesterday from 26 attempts, chances are the group would look a lot different tonight.

The group is what it is. We win the two games left, and we get out of the group. We win them and Slovakia beat the Russians like last year, and we're off to the finals. It's that simple.

[zero]

i think at this point it's fair to say russia deserve to top the group - they gave us a right battering in both games. i would've taken 2nd at the start.

a lot of talk about how andrews and whelan aren't good enough - whelan in particular was really good last campaign but hasn't done as well this time round. i think he has it in him to be effective and i wouldn't rule either out now. bear in mind gibson might well have started both games if fit so it's not as if trap doesn't realise there's an issue in the middle.

that said would like to see mccarthy get a run out against andorra - last half an hour if not starting - as they'll be sitting back and he could unlock them. i fear a repeat of liechtenstein but really, as they say, if we can't beat andorra etc.

[Paddy Garcia]

I don't think Whelan was really good in the last campaign. The midfield rarely imposed itself and it was one of the weakest links in the team. He was ok say 6/7 out of 10.

[zero]

I don't think Whelan was really good in the last campaign. The midfield rarely imposed itself and it was one of the weakest links in the team. He was ok say 6/7 out of 10.

not in every match - but he had some stand out performances. some goal v italy aswell.

on another note, anyone got a link to highlights of last night's match? i need to take another look at that dunne clearance. as good as any goal we've scored this campaign!

[cornflakes]

not in every match - but he had some stand out performances. some goal v italy aswell.

on another note, anyone got a link to highlights of last night's match? i need to take another look at that dunne clearance. as good as any goal we've scored this campaign!

Highlights here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LhgtI9IF-Q)

Edit: Just watched that link, not a great clip

[geysir]

I don't think Whelan was really good in the last campaign. The midfield rarely imposed itself and it was one of the weakest links in the team. He was ok say 6/7 out of 10.
6 or 7 out of 10 for a player who was not really good, who rarely imposed himself and one of the weakest links in the team??
I'd say you were a tad generous with your rating.

[shakermaker1982]

I always had the impression you were a fan of Whelan Geysir? I don't know why I thought that?!

[paul_oshea]

I think his point in this case was more related to the rating Paddy gave after saying he basically did nothing the last campaign

[shakermaker1982]

Whelan was a 6 out of 10 last campaign!

[pineapple stu]

6 or 7 out of 10 for a player who was not really good, who rarely imposed himself and one of the weakest links in the team??
I'd say you were a tad generous with your rating.
I assumed it was a fraction (6/7ths out of 10)

[the bear]

I assumed it was a fraction (6/7ths out of 10)

sounds about right

[lionelhutz]

I'm not sure if this is discussed elsewhere but did anyone else read David Kelly's article in the Indo today? My god it was purile stuff. Pat Spillane mentioned puke football in the GAA, this was puke journalism. How does he still have a job?

Here are a few snippets;

"Lucky general ain't the half of it.

But, then, such is the often strange beauty of this sport. Even when pock-marked with the ugly imprint of an inflexible utilitarian like Trapattoni, there's always a chance for those who don't want to play the game.

The Rugby World Cup will not allow such a mismatch to be unrepresentative on the scoreboard. Nor would hurling. Nor any field sport for that matter.

Soccer is the only field game where one can get absolutely battered for 90 minutes, cede twice as much possession to the opposition, lose the corner count 12-1, conceded 28 attempts on goal, and still blithely skip away beneath the cover of darkness with a 0-0 draw."

"His utter control of his team has extended to all reaches of his squad, with captain Robbie Keane the chief cheerleader for his leader's soulless approach to the game.

An interesting vignette before Tuesday's game reflects the vast gulf that exists between the players and management.

Kevin Doyle (pictured below) and Stephen Hunt were walking from the plastic pitch after a little stroll some 90 minutes before kick-off. Trapattoni and Marco Tardelli were standing in congress at the side of the pitch. Doyle and Hunt walked past the Italian duo, heads bowed, not even inviting a greeting or deigning to offer the briefest word.

The context of this (non) exchange came later. Doyle was withdrawn -- Trapattoni had bizarrely replaced him with another striker -- and the Wexford man afterwards spoke in clipped, disconsolate tones to the radio reporters in the mixed zone."

"This Ireland team remains an affront to those of us who appreciate freedom of expression in our sport, but there is still time for some of its leading characters to help us enjoy the ride a little more.

If this past week represents the future of Irish football, it seems like a pretty dull place. Sport isn't always about fables, it is true. But does the real world have to be so pallid?"

What a load of cow dung. He talks about the Rugby World Cup being fair. There's a max of ten competitive rugby nations in the world. Then he has his customary pointless dig at Keane over nothing. After that, he states that because Doyle and Hunt didn't high five Trap on their way past him, there must be trouble brewing in the camp!

Give me a break.

[BonnieShels]

That was a difficult read Lionel. sort your quoting out. But I take your point.
It has all been said before about Kelly. This article is bad, but the one about Keane was worse.

[elroy]

Soccer is the only field game where one can get absolutely battered for 90 minutes, cede twice as much possession to the opposition, lose the corner count 12-1, conceded 28 attempts on goal, and still blithely skip away beneath the cover of darkness with a 0-0 draw."

"

This is the very point that makes "Soccer" the best sport of them all. Shocks and real upsets can often on a more than infrequent basis. How the RWC would love more than even one surprise result in the whole of the competition!!! Similarly hurling.

You could argue that soccer is in such a nature that not always the best teams win. I think that certainly has a point on a one off game but generally over a tournament/league the best team wins. Some might point to Greece in 2004. Yes Greece were not the most skillful or had the most flair but they were the most tactically astute and best organised given their resources.

Freedom of expression in sport. Yes we would love to express ourselves more and attack Russia away from home but for what to get hammered 5-0. Id sooner take an organised defensive performance and a result. (Im not saying Tuesday night was organised, that was alot of luck also). But the one thing that Trap has is an organised team - for many of us with a few improvements in midfield in particular, this team could reach further heights - remains to be seen.

[Charlie Darwin]

The rugby world cup does tend to have surprise results to be fair. Argentina's entire campaign in 2007, along with England beating Australia, France beating New Zealand and Argentina slaughtering France for the second time. His point was that a game can't be so spectacularly lopsided and not be reflected on the scoreboard, which is a fair point considering that Robbie could have won it for us at the death were it not for a great Shirakov interception.

[lionelhutz]

That was a difficult read Lionel. sort your quoting out. But I take your point.
It has all been said before about Kelly. This article is bad, but the one about Keane was worse.

Apologies about the quoting. I've never got the hang of it!

[Stuttgart88]

This is the very point that makes "Soccer" the best sport of them all. Shocks and real upsets can often on a more than infrequent basis. How the RWC would love more than even one surprise result in the whole of the competition!!! Similarly hurling.

You could argue that soccer is in such a nature that not always the best teams win. I think that certainly has a point on a one off game but generally over a tournament/league the best team wins. Some might point to Greece in 2004. Yes Greece were not the most skillful or had the most flair but they were the most tactically astute and best organised given their resources.

Freedom of expression in sport. Yes we would love to express ourselves more and attack Russia away from home but for what to get hammered 5-0. Id sooner take an organised defensive performance and a result. (Im not saying Tuesday night was organised, that was alot of luck also). But the one thing that Trap has is an organised team - for many of us with a few improvements in midfield in particular, this team could reach further heights - remains to be seen.

Well said. The beauty of soccer is that the underdog can win or draw. High scoring sports don't have that factor, for the most part.

We expressed ourselves under Stan. The players high-fived Stan.

None of us can deny that we lack enterprise, and it's becoming a worry for me, but Kelly just can't let this point go. He's been banging on about it when it hasn't been warranted, and just because we put in two unenterprising performances in a row he thinks he's flippin Socrates with his worldly insights.

[MeathDrog]

Random point, but I think that Andrews would be a much better contributor with a better midfielder alongside him, moreso than the other way round with Whelan.

[Stuttgart88]

Gibson or Fahey?

I'm glad Meyler was mentioned in another thread. Wilson is another who could play deep midfield.

I would be tempted to play O'Shea in midfield again.

[French Toasht]

So having read Kelly's rant about soccer in comparison to other sports, I started to think to myself; If Ireland were a team/player in any other sport, who would they be?

Heres who I came up with:

GAA: The Donegal footballers

Irish football resembles whats great about Ulster football. Combatitive, dogged, relentless work rate and continual pressurising of opponents. When it comes to creative inspiration, we are lacking. Determination and work rate alone, will insure you go far but will always inevitably come up short for the big prize.

Rugby: The Georgians

Formidable opponents (as we learned in 2007). Play with spirit and tenacity, strong in the challenge and defend for their lives but still remain on the fringes of the elite teams in the world.

Snooker: Peter Ebdon

Hard on the eye for the purists of the sport. Patient, methodical, conservative style and at times very predictable, yet still extremely frustrating to play against and eternally difficult to grind down.

Horse Racing: Ruby Walsh

Battered and bruised from battle but still never give up and will be comepetive for the entire duration of the game.

Golf: Sergio Garcia

Solid and consistant but when it comes to the crunch, does not possess the mental strenght to beat the best.

Tennis: Ivo Karlovic

A one trick pony and extremely predictable, yet still difficult to play against. Aggressive from the off (serve) yet often lacks imagination when the ball is returned to him.

Athletics: The sport of Athletics

Subject of much media scrutiny and criticism and many fans have turned their back on the sport. Yet still the sport prevails and continues to provide enjoyment to the loyal fans who have been there through thick and thin.

Anyone have any other analogies? Was trying to find a boxing anology but fell short there?

[CraftyToePoke]

I would be tempted to play O'Shea in midfield again.

I'd go along with that, I think he would improve things. Trap is quoted in the I-Paper today as realising how very lucky we were, how he had hoped we could win but as it panned out, were highly fortunate with a point, so maybe we will see a change in there. It's going to cost us soon, a side who just cant gain a foothold in the middle will surely take a hiding at some point, we couldnt even do it to a point where our back four get a breather to line up again the other night, let alone to an extent where we could ask some questions of the opponent.

I would like to hear what Trap really thinks of his midfield options, I realise he cannot say this publicly as it would not be a team bonding moment, but I bet he knows better than anyone. Will he look at the alternatives though?

[paul_oshea]

Wayne mccullough.
Or Matthew macklin.

Any sport really that a Irish person participates in.its just an Irish trait or traits what you have pointed out. Good analogies though.

[MeathDrog]

Gibson or Fahey?

I'm glad Meyler was mentioned in another thread. Wilson is another who could play deep midfield.

I would be tempted to play O'Shea in midfield again.
Possibly Fahey, maybe even McCarthy.

[Sullivinho]

McGrath: We need to add steel to midfield (http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/mcgrath-we-need-to-add-steel-to-midfield-166807.html)

This is the kind of clarity and insight that strikes when one takes to singing on Curracloe beach. Let's get Trap down there pronto.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Never mind Whelan, Gibson, O'Shea, Wilson, Andrews et al.

For all their other flaws, would give half my left little toe for a sane and committed Stephen Ireland or a fit Andy Reid...
Watching us these days is like watching paint dry. Regardless of some impressive results. Or not conceding etc.

Ultimately this will prove our undoing as GT has NO credible 'Plan B'.
:(

[SwanVsDalton]

Sane and committed or not, Stephen Ireland hasn't played a decent game of football in almost 18 months. Andy Reid's downturn of form ain't promising ethther. Plus neither would work in the current system. Which is why I certainly agree with you on a plan B - we have the players not to be constantly heart-in-mouth when playing a half decent team.

[Closed Account 2]

Never mind Whelan, Gibson, O'Shea, Wilson, Andrews et al.

For all their other flaws, would give half my left little toe for a sane and committed Stephen Ireland or a fit Andy Reid...
Watching us these days is like watching paint dry. Regardless of some impressive results. Or not conceding etc.

Ultimately this will prove our undoing as GT has NO credible 'Plan B'.
:(

But those two things simply dont exist anymore, some would say they never existed... Andy Reid doesnt have the stamina for top level football, and he hasnt really had it for a good 2-3 years. Stephen Ireland doesnt have a degree of sanity in his body and his ability is on the slide too. You may as well say we would like a midfield of Sheridan and Townsend from the 1990s vintage.

[punkrocket]

McGrath: We need to add steel to midfield (http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/mcgrath-we-need-to-add-steel-to-midfield-166807.html)

This is the kind of clarity and insight that strikes when one takes to singing on Curracloe beach. Let's get Trap down there pronto.

Oh yes I can see it now "Just one cornetto..." - bought of course from Colm Meany's van with the glories of Italia 90 as a wistful subplot. It all fits.

[paul_oshea]

Sane and committed or not, Stephen Ireland hasn't played a decent game of football in almost 18 months. Andy Reid's downturn of form ain't promising ethther. Plus neither would work in the current system. Which is why I certainly agree with you on a plan B - we have the players not to be constantly heart-in-mouth when playing a half decent team.

Thing is, I think thats too simplistic a view of things. I'm not saying either player would have blossomed or flourished under traps guidance, but you can't say they wouldn't have either. Looking at the current team, playing first team for your club does not mean you won't perform for Ireland. Ill bring you back to your argument witih IFK101 about Sledger.

[paul_oshea]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/james-lawton-ireland-cannot-afford-to-jettison-old-trap-2871840.html

Hard to argue with some of the points made by lawton, but he takes the obvious easy approach - SI and Andy reid.

But it did get me thinking, how would he have handled Roy Keane, a man he could obviously not have treated like Andy Reid?

[ArdeeBhoy]

In fairness, ones's a decent bloke with a cr*p diet and the other's an egotistical assh*le...
;)

[jbyrne]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/james-lawton-ireland-cannot-afford-to-jettison-old-trap-2871840.html

Hard to argue with some of the points made by lawton, but he takes the obvious easy approach - SI and Andy reid.

But it did get me thinking, how would he have handled Roy Keane, a man he could obviously not have treated like Andy Reid?

am shocked such a realistic article appeared in the independent. reality at last

roy wouldve been glad to be part of traps squad i would imagine given he is getting the most out of the team and performing to our limits, all Keane ever wanted.

the current Irish team wouldnt ship half the criticism it does with keane in the team as he would sort out our main problem straight away, ctre mid