Shelbourne FC Demoted to First Division - All Purpose Thread

[dublinred]

Where did you find that? The bit in bold seems different that seen previously... :confused:

The bit in bold in very interesting , it seems that Pats are getting invited because Setanta don't want their cameras to cross the shannon and fat Pat prefers the chippers around richmond park. The setanta money will have an effect on club budgets hence affecting squads for this season which will influence the final placings at the end of the season so a lot more than dodgy invites at stake here , if i wasn't getting setanta for free I would cancel my subscription...

[Schumi]

The league needs well run clubs not... gangsters with dodgy accountants.LOL. :D

[WeAreRovers]

- Withdraw voluntary stewards, programme sellers, half-time draw sellers etc
- Refuse to buy, sell or write for the programme or work in the club shop;
- Refuse to buy merchandise or display banners/flags at games etc etc.


Good post Steve, the bit I've quoted is the very least they should have done last season. When I heard that the SSDG were going bankroll the Shels programme I knew there was no way they were ever going to dig themselves out this mess.

When Kilcoyne announced the sale of Milltown the supporters club, who had been responsible for the programme, immediately refused to do it anymore thus depriving the evil one of a few shekels. That's how militant we were 20 years ago and it took us nearly 20 years to learn that that alone wasn't enough.

KOH

[Burnsie]

the pungency of the gloating on this thread is nauseating. if the schadenfreude brigade really want to indulge their own sense of superiority over shelbourne and its fans, why not try some magnanimity? to sneer at them now for they having sneered at you then is just absurdly hypocritical.

for all its faults, and no doubt i'm ill-informed about many of them, i don't think a rational argument can be made that the disappearance of shelbourne would be good for football in ireland.

[dcfcsteve]

But our cows are better!!!

Only cuz your wimmin are so rough....!

:D

[paul_oshea]

very good post steve alright, do you think though it was somewhat a cache 22, maybe naively somewhat, or backburner stuff, but these fans thought that by ensuring they were helping the club to pay for these players that were bringing them glory, which is what all supporters of a club aspire and hope for, they kept up doing all this work, not necessarily because they liked ollie, but they thought they were helping the club to stay at the top and pay for being at the top?
Just one other small point, if the supporters raised 10k and tried to buy ollie out, they would still be taking on 10mil euro debts, which they would have to prove they could pay for, along with the differnce the sale of the grounds.

[Magicme]

Only cuz your wimmin are so rough....!

:D


Didnt stop u wanting to see a pic of me in the jersey tho did it!!! :eek:

Freak! :D

[TheOwl]

That sums it up for me. I don't want Shels to go to the wall but the fans sat back and watched Ollie lie and cheat his way to the top and did nothing.

Why didn't you do something about it? It truly baffles me and I'm left with very little sympathy for you.

Someone on Shelsweb even berated me when I suggested that you should have demanded the club off Ollie. That attitude explains why you're fooked.

To put it simply, when the crap hit the fan at Rovers I and countless others were incandescent with rage and we used that rage to make positive changes. I've seen no anger from Shels fans. You made your bed....

KOH

I think there is a few key differences between our situation and Rovers.

The big one is of course that Shels were so successful, it is very difficult to get fans excited about a potential takeover when the team is playing in their own stadium, and winning cups and leagues.

The “buried in the sand” quote comes up quite a lot, and there is truth in this, fans by their nature are greedy.

When they see their team get into the top three, they want them to push on and try and sign those players that will let them win the league, then when they win the league, they want to get the players that will push them further in Europe etc…etc…Fans get excited about skilful players, winning trophies and European trips, not from steady balance sheets

You ignore the jibs and the warnings from other fans, because you are winning!

Ollie probably did this too to some extent, as he was a fan, I think again there is a difference between Shels situation and Rovers because we were effectively run into the ground by a fan, not some property developer looking for a quick buck.

Ollie’s plans were stupid, idiotic, unreasonable, whatever…but despite this, in his own warped mind, I think he always thought what he was doing was for the good of Shelbourne even if it proved to be the exact opposite.

Football fans have often complained that they have had a businessman as opposed to a fan running their club, our problem was we had the opposite, the lesson to be learned is that the faith of a football club should never really be put in the hands of one man.

Also you have to consider the fact that Ollie was the man who brought the club from the brink of extinction to unparalleled success.

He really has been the cause and the solution to all of Shelbourne’s problems for many years now, looks like he is finally lost his balancing act.

But again, were we Shelbourne fans blind? I suppose we were.

I wonder what the attitude of other fans will be if Drogheda go to the wall in a few years, and indeed how Drogheda fans feel about all this. They are enjoying great success at the moment, and similar questions are being asked of them as were asked about us.

But again, when your winning on the pitch, it is easy to take the warnings of other as mere jealousy.

[paul_oshea]

Only cuz your wimmin are so rough....!

if a =b and a= c then b=c

their women are cows!!!! 8:

TheOwl that is what I pointed out to steve in my post above. That is a very very good post, one of the most honest and accurate posts I have ever read on here. POTY for sure! :)

[khoop]

the bit I've quoted is the very least they should have done last season

Well the web team recently announced their departure. And the programme failed to be published several times last season. And the stewarding descended into chaos towards the end of the season. Not sure if that's all a sign of protest or incompetence.

Shels' supporters biggest mistake was to allow themselves to be mouthpieces for Ollie's propaganda. Even when Magoo still had a firm hold of Rovers, nobody was afraid to speak up against him. Quite apart from the public meetings where he regularly got a roasting, he just had to take a look at the Ultras forum to know EXACTLY what everyone thought of him.

Every time Ollie looked at the Shels forum up until last week, he could see that his bullying, bullsh!t and bluster were working.

[Schumi]

If you were to ask the average soccer supporterer in ireland ( that doesnt attend EL matches ) that would be what they would say about the EL.So what? They don't go to games and are completely ignorant about the standard of football, who cares what they think? If that's their attitude they won't go to games anyway so **** them. There are more important issues in this than what TV viewers think.

[dcfcsteve]

for all its faults, and no doubt i'm ill-informed about many of them, i don't think a rational argument can be made that the disappearance of shelbourne would be good for football in ireland.

Who's talking about Shels's disappearance except you ? :confused: This thread is about explaining the lack of goodwill towards Shels....

Many, if not most, posters here clearly don't want Shels to disappear completely for all time. Only the very odd narrow-minded person wants another Drumcondra in Irish football. A number (myself included) have also clarified that their problem is with Ollie Byrne, and not with the club. So this is hardly the farewell party you seem to think it is....

[dcfcsteve]

Didnt stop u wanting to see a pic of me in the jersey tho did it!!!

Freak! :D

Some wimmin look better with their clothes on than off......

:D

P.S. What were you doing in a jersey anyway ? :eek: Were you using that under-harness and strap-on yolk that your cousin got you for Christmas.....?

[Magicme]

if a =b and a= c then b=c

their women are cows!!!! 8:



git :mad:

[paul_oshea]

Schumi, absoloutely, but dont you think you should be trying to conver these people, rather than having a fcuk them attitude? Even moreso, lets take it like you feel sorry for them because they dont feel an association to any club as local as the EL, don't you think it would be good for them to have that association? By having the attitude fcuk them, lets not worry about them, that isn't going to change and advance the league. These people are hte most realistic chance you have of increasing support and fan bases of the league, ruggers/gaelic heads that have no interest in soccer are going to be even more difficult to attract if even possible.

[jebus]

YAWN, it's gettin old. you're like a broken record. Why are you still here? this is an Eircom league forum.

Sure where else would I find a higher level of wit than that of the average Galway supporter, I don't know what would have become of me in life without you guys putting me in my place ;)

[paul_oshea]

git :mad:

ah im only buzzin off ye magicme, I'm sure your cows look lovely in monaghan jerseys!! :p

[Magicme]

They will look even nicer in the new ones!!!

[jebus]

Thats a simply shocking arguement. Shels have only been there through underhand tactics. If it wasn't for that it could have been Cork or Derry in that position.

Hardly, Shelbourne have been the headline club for the past decade in the eyes of the general football fan that we are trying to entice into this league. They are considered so because of their on the field achievements, and because of players such as Stephen Geoghan. I remember when I wasn't an Eircom League fan and Shels were the only team I ever heard about as being of anywhere near an acceptable standard club on the pitch, and I'm sure if you asked English supporting Irish football fans today they would say the same thing.

[CharlesThompson]

very good post steve alright, do you think though it was somewhat a cache 22, maybe naively somewhat, or backburner stuff, but these fans thought that by ensuring they were helping the club to pay for these players that were bringing them glory, which is what all supporters of a club aspire and hope for, they kept up doing all this work, not necessarily because they liked ollie, but they thought they were helping the club to stay at the top and pay for being at the top?
Just one other small point, if the supporters raised 10k and tried to buy ollie out, they would still be taking on 10mil euro debts, which they would have to prove they could pay for, along with the differnce the sale of the grounds.

Paul, they were told at the time by anybody else with half a brain that they were wasting their time with this kind of "help". They ignored all and sundry who offered well informed advice as to how they could and should help their club. Out of some sense of perverse defensiveness having been told they were travelling along the wrong road, they stuck their fingers in their ears and sang 'la la la...'

[dcfcsteve]

I'm sure your cows look lovely in monaghan jerseys!! :p

Is that a local pedigree breed or something.....? A bit like Irish Parma ham....

[dcfcsteve]

....they stuck their fingers in their ears and sang 'la la la...'

"Sing when you're solvent ! You only sing when you're solvent...!"

[Schumi]

Schumi, absoloutely, but dont you think you should be trying to conver these people, rather than having a fcuk them attitude? Even moreso, lets take it like you feel sorry for them because they dont feel an association to any club as local as the EL, don't you think it would be good for them to have that association? By having the attitude fcuk them, lets not worry about them, that isn't going to change and advance the league. These people are hte most realistic chance you have of increasing support and fan bases of the league, ruggers/gaelic heads that have no interest in soccer are going to be even more difficult to attract if even possible.I'd prefer if they supported a team and went to games but the idea that Shels' problems are a deciding factor in people's attitudes is rubbish. If people weren't interested in the league for the past 2-3 years, Shels' demise isn't going to worsen the situation.

The first step to a succesful league is for the clubs to be properly and sensibly run rather than in a repeated boom and bust cycle. Long-term, a league where Shels have gone through this and are run in a sustainable manner is more likely to attract new fans than one where clubs are one step away for disaster as has been the case. I don't want to see Shels die but I'd rather that than having them continue to operate as they have over the past 5 years.

[paul_oshea]

good one steve!

ya I am beginging to see that, but those on forums are only a small amount, I mean you only have to look at when we try to organise stuff off foot.ie, it never bloody works cos we are only a small group!!! Not saying this is definately the case here. But if this was held by the majority of supporters I can see why some people have the attitude they have. But is it only their supporters that would/have acted like this?

[BohsPartisan]

Hardly, Shelbourne have been the headline club for the past decade in the eys ofthe general football fan that we are trying to entice into this league.

As Schumi said on the other thread, it still didn't entice them to come so who cares what they think?
As for them getting publicity for their on the field activities, I think you missed my point. It was because of their underhand off the field activities that they were able to field teams to grab the headlines. If it wasn't for them signing up to contracts they couldn't afford to pay, those players would have been plying their trade with other clubs and helping them to deserved success.

[Dr.Nightdub]

Last time, it was a more crowded market - three potential landloard (us, Bohs, Shels) and two prospective tenants (Rovers and CHF). Now it's a buyer's market - two potential landlords (us and Bohs) but only one prospective tenant (Rovers). Seems to me that leaves the tenant with more bargaining power.

Also, your previous tenancy arrangements were set up by your old regime. From what I can make out, Rovers' current board has a bit more financial savvy - you don't turn a €2.5million loss into a €40k profit (figures supplied by a hoop I work with) by paying €2k a game for the use of a pitch.

[paul_oshea]

I'd prefer if they supported a team and went to games but the idea that Shels' problems are a deciding factor in people's attitudes is rubbish. If people weren't interested in the league for the past 2-3 years, Shels' demise isn't going to worsen the situation.


I agree completely with what you are saying schumi, but I am seeing it from a different angle I think, People in ireland, the same people that went to see shels against deportivo in landsdowne, watched them against Lille on the tele ( actually I cant remember 100% for sure was that home game shown? ), have associated shels as being a club moving forward, doing things and going places, they haven't read or heard much about ollie byrne, they probably don't even know who he is ( most of them anyhow ) nor do they know about the background finances, but they do know shelbourne and if they see, in their eyes a club like shels folding that to them will only strengthen what they think of the league and therefore the leagues players and the standard, its giant leap back. In the next 3 - 4 years derry might take their place and it could all be forgotten, but in the short term I dont think its good for you as EL fans for shels to become extinct.

[jebus]

As Schumi said on the other thread, it still didn't entice them to come so who cares what they think?

But if thats the case than we may as well jack in the LoI altogether. By that token we will never get the kind of fans we need to support a full time Irish football league that can push on in Europe. All we will get is more Shelbourne style disasters at other clubs who chase glory


As for them getting publicity for their on the field activities, I think you missed my point. It was because of their underhand off the field activities that they were able to field teams to grab the headlines. If it wasn't for them signing up to contracts they couldn't afford to pay, those players would have been plying their trade with other clubs and helping them to deserved success.

Still though, many clubs across Europe overspend, some have suffered the consequences, some haven't, we still shouldn't be dancing on the grave of a team that would help out the EL cause of converting Man Utd/Liverpool/Celtic/etc. fans to the EL because of this, which is what most of us have been doing on this forum

[mandrake]

Good one :rolleyes:



Would rather win the first division and take the €50k from the F.A.I and laugh at them. Well I'm from Dublin which shouldnt matter in this case, but I wouldnt want to see any club go bust, as mentioned before there is no way Shels can play in the CL and should not be in the premier, their are three or four teams in the first division that one of them should be there instead.

Any team going bust is not good for the LOI, I wouldnt wish it on any club not even rovers or the drogs (who will prob go the same way as shels with there spending)


i'd love to see dundalk to belly up....its great laughing at ehm at the moment....and the maxi twist is the icing on the cake...:)

[BohsPartisan]

But if thats the case than we may as well jack in the LoI altogether. By that token we will never get the kind of fans we need to support a full time Irish football league that can push on in Europe.
It will take a lot more than a few decent results in Europe to get new supporters into the EL in their droves. Better facilities, better youth set ups leading to a better quality of product in the long run, better PR from the FAI, increasing fees paid from English clubs for EL players are a move in the right direction.
Putting all your chips on red is not.



Still though, many clubs across Europe overspend, some have suffered the consequences, some haven't, we still shouldn't be dancing on the grave of a team that would help out the EL cause of converting Man Utd/Liverpool/Celtic/etc. fans to the EL because of this, which is what most of us have been doing on this forum

There is overspending and then there is recklessness of Titanic proportions. You still miss my point. If Shels were not cheating their way into the limelight it could have been Cork or Derry doing it legitimately.

[Macy]

Just one other small point, if the supporters raised 10k and tried to buy ollie out, they would still be taking on 10mil euro debts, which they would have to prove they could pay for, along with the differnce the sale of the grounds.
The club would still have the ground, which would cover the debts, and it's not beyond Dublin City Council doing similar to what South Dublin did for Rovers. If they said they'd never rezone it for property developers without Shels being looked after then there is no benefit to the property sharks of forcing shels out of business.


have associated shels as being a club moving forward, doing things and going places, they haven't read or heard much about ollie byrne
Only if they never watched or listened to a sports report, probably sneering, that contained Shels threatening legal action, more often than that accompanied with Ollie spouting rubbish. If they hadn't associated the two, at the very least they would've had an opinion on the league formed out of this nonsense, saying that "sure the leagues a joke decided in the court rooms". I can't see how they'd be anyone living in this country that follows football that wouldn't have heard Ollie on the radio.

[Schumi]

But if thats the case than we may as well jack in the LoI altogether. By that token we will never get the kind of fans we need to support a full time Irish football league that can push on in Europe. All we will get is more Shelbourne style disasters at other clubs who chase gloryThat wasn't my point. People who don't support EL clubs thinking that Shels are great is much less important than clubs running themselves properly to avoid such collapses in the future. Shels' current problems aren't what's wrong, it's their previous way of doing business.

[paul_oshea]

The club would still have the ground, which would cover the debts

Are you sure thats the case for say that amount of money? If the ground is worth 16m isnt that a shortfall of 4million euro which they would have to pay for to the current club owner(s)

you would be surprised, i just asked 3 lads on msn, who play football every week and support arsenal and liverpool respectfully, they both follow cross-channel football fairly intensely. I asked the question: have you heard of ollie byrne, one goes ah ya the footballer ( this lad is from blanchardstown ), the others didnt know.

[Macy]

If the ground is worth 16m isnt that a shortfall of 4million euro which they would have to pay for to the current club owner(s)
Shels without the fans is dead. If Ollie loves shels so much he's have no problem with such an arrangement, particularly as €3million of the draw down appears to have been effectively taken from the club to allow him to build his own share level.

[Jerry The Saint]

The bit in bold in very interesting , it seems that Pats are getting invited because Setanta don't want their cameras to cross the shannon and fat Pat prefers the chippers around richmond park.

and because the regulations above do not take into account a club declining to take their place;
and you shouldn't expect that placing 5th in a competition would entitle you to enter a 4-team invitational tournament;
and Pats were the actual runners-up in the Cup instead of just a Dublin team picked at random;
and, yes, the fact that viewing figures show that games involving Pats consistently draw larger television audiences also helped the commercial television company to decide who should get in under these exceptional circumstances.

[hoops1]

Shels without the fans is dead. If Ollie loves shels so much he's have no problem with such an arrangement, particularly as €3million of the draw down appears to have been effectively taken from the club to allow him to build his own share level.

Thats a very interesting point.

[DvB]

IfShels cease to exist i'd imagine a short term deal could be agreed between SRFC & DCC, we need a ground to use for a season, DCC have one lying around not being used, hey presto, we look after the day to day running of the place, cover insurance etc, we're happy, DCC are happy, bobs your uncles friends girlfriend!

Shels will be the ex bird, crying into her pillow with My chemical romance cd's blaring 24-7!!

Gear!

[bigmac]

Two points.

Firstly, there's no point arguing about the rules and regulations because nobody has yet pointed out any particular passage where it says - "In the event of a team declining the invitation to compete....".
This means that the situation as it exists is not covered by the rules, and hence can be interpreted in whatever manner the organisers decide.


Secondly, my opinion in this case is that the spirit of the law has been upheld, if not the letter (which clearly is ambiguous - see above). The European situation, if it arises, will result in the same decision as the Setanta Cup, and I doubt that there will be the same argument on this messageboard.

Hoever, having said all that, the rules are open to interpretation and people are free to interpret them as they so wish.

[BohsFans]

Id welcome them back to Dalymount and im sure the board would too

:D lol

[wws]

Two points.


This means that the situation as it exists is not covered by the rules, and hence can be interpreted in whatever manner the organisers decide.



well done
penny drops
its a non issue to be honest

the SSC is a media driven event by a niche commercial station - its only footballing status is that it has the joint blessing of the IFA and FAI its not the league or the cup of a national association under UEFA

[Cluba06]

If shels fold could there be the opportunity that Dundalk will get to fill their place in the premeir league next season? Or if shels are expelled from the league down to the first division will we get promoted?

[pete]

If shels fold could there be the opportunity that Dundalk will get to fill their place in the premeir league next season? Or if shels are expelled from the league down to the first division will we get promoted?

Were not Waterford next on the IAG list?

[DmanDmythDledge]

Were not Waterford next on the IAG list?
Yeah.

[Mental Man]

Yes it was on local radio here today that if shels fold the next team in line with the rankings in Waterford United ,and as they finished 13th then the yare automatically promoted.
Just heard also and it was posted up on BTiD that Paul Lennon of The Star newspaper will be on our favourite footie show here on WLR on saturday morning ,its called Terrace talk, brill programme, seemingly there is BIG NEWS gonna break on the programme and Paul is gonna announce it !
I have a feeling its PAYBACK TIME (i hope) :rolleyes:

[BohsPartisan]

Big news will be that The Star will be giving out free copies of the paper at the first Waterford home game! :D

[Poor Student]

Yes it was on local radio here today that if shels fold the next team in line with the rankings in Waterford United ,and as they finished 13th then the yare automatically promoted.
Just heard also and it was posted up on BTiD that Paul Lennon of The Star newspaper will be on our favourite footie show here on WLR on saturday morning ,its called Terrace talk, brill programme, seemingly there is BIG NEWS gonna break on the programme and Paul is gonna announce it !
I have a feeling its PAYBACK TIME (i hope) :rolleyes:

I just don't get the attitude in Waterford. You last season was diabolical on the pitch. Had you managed to somehow been given that deus ex machina clemency by the IAG then you should have considered yourselves extremely fortunate, yet for some bizarre reason you seem to feel hard done by and let down. You now consider this possible lucky shot at getting a Premier Division place your devine right. Yes I know you were getting things in order off the pitch etc. etc. but you know that had that saved your hides that was just mere fortune. You're owed nothing and deserve nothing.

[Gareth]

DCFCSteve, I guess I'll reply to your post as it suggested a way of overthrowing an owner of a football club. My first question is Have you ever met Ollie Byrne and do you really think fans attempting to bully him into selling up the club would actually impact at all? I would say it would only serve to do the opposite. I think the first and only question I want answered is, knowing Ollie, does anyone think he would sell 99% of his stake in Shels, if fans asked him to or even boycotted games? Our attendances were low enough some of you would say that you may not notice a boycott!!!

Even in the toughest times for Shelbourne FC, Ollie remained at the helm, so do you really believe a bunch of fans could have successfully made him give up the club after Deportivo, or our 4th league win in a few years etc.

Lets say Shels fans attempted to do what Rovers fans did. There is a HUGE difference, in that there is a potential asset of 20million ish. Debts in common alright, but that asset is something that would make a deal with fans even more difficult to broker, especially when times were prospering on the field. But all this is beside the point, cos people will argue fans didn't try, and Shels fans will argue it would have been pointless, or they didnt know, and you will allsay But we told you etc etc.

The reality in my humble opinion is no man woman or demigod coul dhave shifted ollie from that club without some form of AMAZING deal on the table, and fans would never be in the position to do that!!!

[Mental Man]

Oh you dont have to remind me or any other blues fans as to how bad we were, Kerley F**ked us up big time by trying his own hand at negotiating wages with our best players and the result is that we had nobody, granted since Gareth Cronin came there has been a big difference, our gripe was these stupid bloody playoffs at the end of the season which made no difference to us or Dundalk afterwards except unnecessary expense for both clubs
The criteria that the IAG laid out to us was adhered to properly by the club, but when you see whats happening at the moment up in Tolka, then you have to ask yourself serious questions as to how in sweet jesus was shels given a licence, i hope this will all be revealed in the so-called FAI investigation, actually either us or Dundalk should go up, if you ask me the whole thing was a farce and will be a farce if nothing is done to shels.

[pineapple stu]

The criteria that the IAG laid out to us was adhered to properly by the club
You didn't finish that far ahead of Shels in the off-field stuff, so I'd wonder to what extent Waterford actually did sort their affairs out last year.

Can't argue with the rest of your post, except to note that nothing proper will come of the investigation.

[DannyInvincible]

Shels qualified through winning the league. Since they withdrew their league winnning place is then given to Derry. Derry would then basically be league champions and FAI cup champions and under Setanta cup rules the cup runners up would then get the place.

If the case is that Derry are taking Shelbourne's place as champions, shouldn't Derry be moved to Shelbourne's group, and St. Pat's take the spot in the group left by Derry?