16 Team Premier Division / Winter Season from 2012/13 TODAY'S DAILY MAIL

[harps1954]

Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere, but I didn't see it.

There's a report by Philip Quinn in today's Irish Daily Mail saying that the 22 League of Ireland clubs met in Athlone on Monday night last regarding the structure of the LOI. The outcome of the meeting was that the clubs voted on a majority of 12-9 (one club must not have attended or didn't vote) to change the following:

- Summer Soccer gone to be replaced by a Winter Season from August 2012
- Premier Division to increase from 10 to 16 teams from end of 2011 season
- Setanta Cup to be run-off during the month of July specifically to help the teams that qualify for Europe

There would be no relegation at the end of 2011, and the top six clubs in the First Division will be promoted to the new 16 team Premier. The bottom six in the First Division will link up with 'A' league clubs and form a new second tier division. Suggestions that the 'A' league would then be scrapped or revamped as the second tier division.

No metion on what clubs will do from the end of next season (Nov 2011) until August 2012. I don't think you could go with a mini-league from February to May as the League Champions won't get European football as the Nov 2011 League Champions will be playing in the 2012/13 European competitions.

Also, the tightness of the vote suggested that there is a big split as to what this is what ALL the clubs really want. However, the findings from Monday's meeting of the clubs in Athlone is going to be presented to John Delaney and the League of Ireland Executive Committee at their meeting in Dublin tomorrow (Thursday). If they ratify it, the new 16 team Premier League will kick-off in August 2012.

As I said apologies if this has been posted elsewhere and I missed it.

[Dodge]

Definitely haven't seen it reported elsewhere. Quinn's a strange one. Gets to hear things but doesn't seem to be able to filter news from BS

Personally I'd love a winter season back

[Mr A]

Been hearing rumblings bout this for some time- especially regarding a 16 team team premier.

Sounds like a good move to be honest, hope it's true. Also heard there was going to be a proper national (i.e. not regionalised) U19 league which would be welcome too.

[Rasputin]

TBH I think most of it sounds good, I hate the 10 league format playing teams at least 4 times a season.
If Pats had won their Semi Final against Shams that would have been the 8th time we would have played them this season.
The ten team league is repetative tbh, and there isnt the same arguement of diluting the quality as I think the gap between the First Division and the Premier is alot smaller than it was 3-4 years ago.
Also I miss winter football, I personally think its a big part of following the LOI, a cold winters night under the floodlights at the Showgies, different class.

[L.T.F.C.]

Hmmm. I don't know what to make of it. Its going to seriously **** up the 6 other teams that are put into the second tier. Also, there'll only be 30 games a season. Wouldn't be a fan of that!

[legendz]

Haven't heard that story before either but they were rumblings alright on bringing back winter soccer and an expansion to a 16 team division. August would be a good month so start the league with the Setanta Cup starting in July as mentioned. A 16 club division reduces the number of league games by 6 though. There would be room for a group stage in the League Cup but European football would have to be a prize to make it worth while.
I've no idea what they clubs could to between November '11 to August '12. They could run a one-off League Cup with groups of 6 or 8 sides playing home and away, with the knock-out stages played out during the new '11-'12 season.

[legendz]

Hmmm. I don't know what to make of it. Its going to seriously **** up the 6 other teams that are put into the second tier. Also, there'll only be 30 games a season. Wouldn't be a fan of that!

There is too much of a focus on league football. The FAI could be a bit inventive, creative while taking ideas from other tournaments and set-up the League Cup for Premier clubs only with 4 groups of 4 and the winner qualifying for Europe.
For the 6 clubs missing out, I can't see why Division One could not stay in existence as a 10 club division, invite 4 clubs from the A Championship, probably a 36 game season. In time they could look at expanding it to 16 as well and expand the League Cup to 8 groups of 4.

[Dodge]

Hmmm. I don't know what to make of it. Its going to seriously **** up the 6 other teams that are put into the second tier.

Well they'd be in the second tier. same as now. And if they can't get in the top 16, they can't really complain.

As long as promotion and relegation between the divisions is there I can't see that as a problem. 30 games isn't that big a change from the 33 they were playing 3/4 years ago.

[pineapple stu]

Could be an idea to include all top flight sides in the Setanta Cup; maybe like the way the League Cup was (groups of four, with the group winners progressing, so everyone gets three games anyway) - would bring the top flight back up to the 33-game mark.

Assume the likes of Tralee, Castlebar, etc would be asked to step up to form a 10/12 team First Division.

Won't change things massively of course - assume this is helped by the same "big clubs" who wanted the smaller ones kept out now being stuck in the First Division or staring it in the face. But I'd be in favour overall of that outline.

[legendz]

If the Premier was 16, 30 game season and the League Cup idea mooted is a non-runner and there was a reduction in games, Division One could get by with 8 clubs playing each other 4 times. Would be a 28 game season, two less than the Premier of 30 games.

[Schumi]

7-8 months with no football? :tremble:

[Mr A]

7-8 months with no football? :tremble:

Sounds like a great idea. As a Harps fan I generally enjoy the close season a lot more than when there's actually football.

[hoops1]

Winter football! Jesus wept

[Dodge]

Sounds like a great idea. As a Harps fan I generally enjoy the close season a lot more than when there's actually football.

its the most hopeful part of the year. Unless your club is being carved up in court.

There'll be another short season. Like the July 02 to January 03 one to go from winter 01/02 to Summer 03

[Jicked]

There is too much of a focus on league football. The FAI could be a bit inventive, creative while taking ideas from other tournaments and set-up the League Cup for Premier clubs only with 4 groups of 4 and the winner qualifying for Europe.



Football in this country did get inventive, we switched to summer soccer with good results, but now it seems there's a chance of being dragged back to winter football on the back of crazy arguments that there'd be an increase in attendance if we played more games in the p*ssing rain.

As for a League Cup, it's the better teams who make any cup interesting. Do you think Rovers/Bohs/Pats/Sligo/Whoever it may be will be arsed playing group stages and knock out rounds for a European place they'll probably have secured through league or FAI Cup football.

While the 16 Division team might have some merit to it, the idea of winter football is just crazy.

[Mr A]

You say Summer football had good results.. what were they exactly?

A small improvement in Euro performances was probably far more related to increased professionalism than summer football, and in any case a small advantage in Europe only helps a few clubs every year.

[Jicked]

A better standard of football, better facilities, better European results (which help the League in general, bringing in revenue, new fans and public interest/advertising, though you may think it just helps individual games). The league as a whole would suffer if we go back to getting hammered by teams from Latvia. Then there's increased media coverage; there's bugger all coverage of last night's semi-final on the news sites, whereas in the Summer LoI coverage was much bigger when column inches had to be filled. Instead we get a half dozen match reports from around Europe, Rooney-gate and the game not even on TV due to it clashing with a Champions League game. Again, this knocks the profile of the league, knocking advertisement in general.

Why exactly would you change back to winter football, apart from romantic ideas of games being better under the rain and lights? If Harps crowds are suffering, do you really think they'd be any better in November and January with the team struggling in the First Division? It's like the farcical argument from Sligo fans years ago that it was the harvest or some such thing that was keeping local farmers from going to games and so affecting their gates.

[osarusan]

better facilities
Where are the better facilities which are a result of the switch to summer football?

[Mr A]

Better football- very debatable.

Better facilities- totally unrelated. Pitches may be slightly better perhaps, but there is a problem of having little time to work on pitches while there is any growth.

Better Euro results- again debatable. And there is no evidence they help the league generally. If anything the tendency for clubs to chase Euro success has done damage. Would we suffer if our teams lost to Latvians? Maybe. I suspect not much though.

I do agree that if we're going to change it again that it should be properly researched and thought out, but your reasons for keeping the status quo are not convincing.

[WindmillWarrior]

A small improvement in Euro performances was probably far more related to increased professionalism than summer football,

not so sure about that. Anyway, why are people so quick to want a return to winter football?

[EalingGreen]

There's a report by Philip Quinn in today's Irish Daily Mail saying that the 22 League of Ireland clubs met in Athlone on Monday night last regarding the structure of the LOI. The outcome of the meeting was that the clubs voted on a majority of 12-9 (one club must not have attended or didn't vote) to change the following:

- Summer Soccer gone to be replaced by a Winter Season from August 2012
-
- Setanta Cup to be run-off during the month of July specifically to help the teams that qualify for Europe
Hmmm.

Whilst a reversion by the LOI to winter football would help greatly in co-ordinating with the IL for Setanta purposes generally, I wonder whether the proponents of the July proposal bothered to ask their IL counterparts what they thought about that?

Since the IL is overwhelmingly part-time (and also because IL clubs do not prioritise European football so much as LOI clubs), many/most players take their holidays in July (also traditional for their "day-job" employers).

Also, July is smack-bang in the middle of the "Marching Season" - I can't see the PSNI being too happy to have to police football during that period, especially visits by LOI clubs across the border to NI (or from Derry for that matter, should they get promotion)

[Jicked]

Where are the better facilities which are a result of the switch to summer football?

You're reducing the amount of games that will be played in bogs around the country. That's on the pitch. Off the pitch, you've got deathtraps like Connaught St in Dalymount that doesn't exactly lend itself well to the dark, rain or ice, also expecting fans to go to places like Carlisle Grounds and stand on bare terracing. The long drives for the likes of Cork and Derry are a little nicer in the daylight than depths of dark winter. It just makes supporting League of Ireland football a little nicer, safer and more marketable.

[Dodge]

I'd argue, pretty strongly too, that full time football has had a bigger impact on European results.

But even if you say that summer football helps European results, and therefore the image of the league... what good has it done? Crowds are down massively all over the league from 7/8/9 years ago. Why good is 2/3 european wins a season if it doesn't help get people actually going to the games?


IT just makes supporting League of Ireland football a little nicer, safer and more marketable.

So why are crowds down (your own club being the exception and we all know the weather has nothing to do with that)?

[pineapple stu]

not so sure about that. Anyway, why are people so quick to want a return to winter football?
Personally, football matches are more atmospheric under floodlights than in the blazing sun. The latter feel like meaningless friendlies. That's not the most scientific of reasons to prefer winter football, but it's my reason anyway.

But I agree with Mr A that any change should be properly researched and not just a knee-jerk reaction (like the last time).

[osarusan]

You're reducing the amount of games that will be played in bogs around the country. That's on the pitch. Off the pitch, you've got deathtraps like Connaught St in Dalymount that doesn't exactly lend itself well to the dark, rain or ice, also expecting fans to go to places like Carlisle Grounds and stand on bare terracing. The long drives for the likes of Cork and Derry are a little nicer in the daylight than depths of dark winter. It just makes supporting League of Ireland football a little nicer, safer and more marketable.

So by better facilities you mean better weather?

I've no great preference when it comes to winter or summer football. What I don't want to see is another overhaul of the league on the assumption that this one will finally solve our problems. There are no great merits to a switch to winter football, but in my opinion, no great merits for sticking with summer football either. This new proposal stinks of change for change's sake, just like the last one was. I don't see any reason why more people will watch St. Pats versus Sligo (for example) in a 16-team league than a 12-team league.

Any overhaul which doesn't address the issue of crap facilities at virtually every ground in the LOI is missing the point, in my opinion.

[Jicked]

In reply to Dodge, crowds are down for a whole host of reasons, that you know all about. Do you really think it's because people are off on their holliers or because Tubercurry is having a harvest festival?


So by better facilities you mean better weather?

Well, the weather impacts on the facilities for fans and players. Good luck trying to play football at Tallaght Stadium during winter with the winds that come down from the mountains.

Like pineapple stu says above, the desire to go back to winter football is rooted in a romantic idea that watching games under the lights is more fun (in fact this way we have the two most important parts of the season when interest is at its highest - start and finish - played under lights). It won't make a blind bit of difference to attendances, but will impact negatively on the media coverage of the League, standard of football and European results of the League (and so again knock another revenue stream)

[pineapple stu]

People being away on their holidays has affected crowds. You can pretty much take that as read. I've noticed it at UCD games (including missing games myself), I've noticed it on the attendances thread, and it makes sense - if, say, 40% of the population go away for two weeks in the summer, then over the course of those 8 weeks, your crowds are going to be down 10% on your regular crowd every week.

Yes, there are other reasons, but to suggest holidays isn't one is just wrong.

[Jicked]

People being away on their holidays has affected crowds. You can pretty much take that as read. I've noticed it at UCD games (including missing games myself), I've noticed it on the attendances thread, and it makes sense - if, say, 80% of the population go away for two weeks in the summer, then over the course of those 8 weeks, your crowds are going to be down 10% on your regular crowd every week.

Yes, there are other reasons, but to suggest holidays isn't one is just wrong.

Not offset by more parents taking kids to games over the course of a summer in a bid to fill the holidays, including attendance at clubs various summer camps etc? It's a very unscientific way of looking at things, so to start trying to use the attendance thread as empirical proof so we move the entire league to a time when the Murphy family aren't off to Butlins, is a bit off.

[pineapple stu]

You said that people being on holidays wasn't a factor. I'm showing that it is a factor. You can't deny it's a factor by pointing to a completely different factor.

[Jicked]

Ok, well in that case people getting a cold in winter is a factor. I distinctly remember missing a couple of games when I had a flu around November once. I also visit the relatives at the start of January so that's another factor I hope the league considers.

[hoops1]

Summer football has many advantages over winter football. But the most basic and important one when it comes down to it is better football is possible in summer due to the weather conditions.

[Rasputin]

It's like the farcical argument from Sligo fans years ago that it was the harvest or some such thing that was keeping local farmers from going to games and so affecting their gates.
Are you sure your not confusing that with Toolan's farcical comments to the papers that we are losing the Housewives due to Summer football?
I dont recall that farmers comment, believe it or not farmers arent exactly a core support base for us, either are Housewives for that matter.

[pineapple stu]

Ok, well in that case people getting a cold in winter is a factor. I distinctly remember missing a couple of games when I had a flu around November once. I also visit the relatives at the start of January so that's another factor I hope the league considers.
So you reckon at any one time in the winter, 10% of people are laid low with the cold?

[Dodge]

In reply to Dodge, crowds are down for a whole host of reasons, that you know all about. Do you really think it's because people are off on their holliers or because Tubercurry is having a harvest festival?


Its do with holidays, beergardens, BBQs, games of golf and every other thing that floating fans prefer to spend their summer evenings doing. Can only speak from personal experience but I’ve far more “stuff” on in the Summer and although I might be willing to **** off the missus by skipping these for football, I’m not sure most are.

In the winter there are far less things to do. Yes, that sounds extremely small time but it’s the truth

I also think its hugely ironic that Rovers fans are arguing for summer football on the basis of "better football" when their team plays hoofball regardless of conditions (and yeah, my team sucks too)

[Mr A]

This was voted on by the clubs, so I guess enough of them felt that the summer season was hurting them. You'd hope the clubs had thought it through.

[Ciaran W]

It all sounds great but i dont think 30 league games a season is enough, in my opinion anyway.

[Dodge]

This was voted on by the clubs, so I guess enough of them felt that the summer season was hurting them. You'd hope the clubs had thought it through.

The same clubs who voted for the 10 team premier and summer football.

The crying shame is that all this tinkering about won't help solve the real problems in the league.

[legendz]

Football in this country did get inventive, we switched to summer soccer with good results, but now it seems there's a chance of being dragged back to winter football on the back of crazy arguments that there'd be an increase in attendance if we played more games in the p*ssing rain.

As for a League Cup, it's the better teams who make any cup interesting. Do you think Rovers/Bohs/Pats/Sligo/Whoever it may be will be arsed playing group stages and knock out rounds for a European place they'll probably have secured through league or FAI Cup football.

While the 16 Division team might have some merit to it, the idea of winter football is just crazy.

It depends when the final was played. The League Cup final would be the first chance I'd imagine of securing European football. They could also more the final to the Aviva. If a European place was given to the League Cup, the only guaranteed Europa League place available through the league would be second but like other countries to could bring in a 4 team play-off for that final Europa League place.
I'd like to see if there would be support for moving Junior football to summer football instead of the LoI back to winter football.

[White Horse]

Winter football. :doh:

I'm glad we have our "plastic" pitch. Maybe, other managers and lazy journalists won't be so quick to sneer at a surface that doesn't resemble a recently ploughed field.

[passerrby]

chips to keeep the kids warm, hot bovril to thaw your hands, stamping your feet and singing to keep out the cold. and a hot whiskey (for madicinal reasons) after the game.oh the memories ...what a load of bo%***k, hated it .its cold enough in our summers without playing in force ten gales and storms

[punkrocket]

For the last couple of years I haven't gone anywhere but to other parts of Ireland for my summer holidays and have always managed to get a few games in that I would never have got to otherwise. Anyway the way things are going no one will be going anywhere too far away for the next few years so it won't be an issue.

[White Horse]

chips to keeep the kids warm, hot bovril to thaw your hands, stamping your feet and singing to keep out the cold. and a hot whiskey (for madicinal reasons) after the game

Sounds like a "summer" game in Monaghan to me. ;)

[legendz]

I'm not sure which way they should go on this one. I think it is important that all leagues, LoI, Intermediate and Junior are run on the same season. June isn't the month for football with the clash with the major competitions. The first Irish team in action in Europe is likely to be the beginning of July. If they were going back to Winter football, they might want to start mid-July with a round or two of the Setanta Cup already being played.

[Aberdonian Stu]

The one issue that doesn't seem to be coming up is the potential for more meaningless games. While the number of clubs in the hunt for Europe won't change the proportion will, as too will those looking to avoid relegation. This leads to more clubs in the middle which down the back-end of the season could lead to an attendance drop-off. One way to combat this is through the Setanta Cup, by allocating places down to a certain point in the table, essentially giving clubs in 8th to 12th (possibly 7th to 13th) something to care about for the last month or two of the season.

[passerrby]

Sounds like a "summer" game in Monaghan to me. ;)

everytime we play ye in gortakeegan it must feel like a storm eh horsey

[Mario]

What a farce!

I cant believe that anyone pines for winter football and getting frozen and soaked out of it in the dark again.

Being able to go to a game in shorts and shades a nice summers evening and bring the kids is the best thing that ever happened to this league. I wouldnt bring my young kids out to stand in the cold for 90 minutes during the depth of the winters at a game.

A lazy, selfish, head in the sand decision if there ever was one!

[pineapple stu]

The one issue that doesn't seem to be coming up is the potential for more meaningless games. While the number of clubs in the hunt for Europe won't change the proportion will, as too will those looking to avoid relegation. This leads to more clubs in the middle which down the back-end of the season could lead to an attendance drop-off. One way to combat this is through the Setanta Cup, by allocating places down to a certain point in the table, essentially giving clubs in 8th to 12th (possibly 7th to 13th) something to care about for the last month or two of the season.
The flip side is that by getting away from the state where half the clubs are looking over their shoulder at relegation, there should be more room for medium-term thinking and club and squad development, as opposed to "win at all costs".

[SwanVsDalton]

Not debating the actual merits here, but from a personal point of view I do prefer a balmy, dusky summer evening in the Brandywell rather than the freeze-fests I was accustomed to for years.

I'm not sure either actually make a difference to attendance though - in winter, people will say they don't want to go in the rain. But in summer, they'll say it's a waste of a pleasant evening to spend it down the Brandy. There's always an excuse. Regardless of when we play football, clubs have to make it attractive and meaningful to people. It'll take more than a summer's evening/better football to make that happen.

For the record, prefer the idea of a 16 team league as well. More travelling for fans, less repetition of games, hopefully a more open, competitive league with lots of fresh blood to invigorate the Premier (not to mention a better structured lower division). Again though, it isn't a magic bullet. I hope clubs realise more is required than drawing up a new calender and pulling numbers out of hat.

[MariborKev]

Quinn's report echoes what I heard.

Some of the reasons for winter football were hilarious.

Grand, sure just disenfranchise the supporters who bother themselves going to games, again. Well done clubs.

[total hoofball]

IMO

Pros
- More floodlight football, better atmosphere
- 2 games a season delivers less predictable games between teams
- season in sync with all levels of football in the country, better FAI Cup for Inter/Junior teams
- likely return of bigger clubs like Shels, Waterford, Cork, Limerick to the top flight
- no clashing with World Cups/Euros and summer holiday seasons

Cons
- Excellerated decline from the already declining standards this season with the addition of 6 poor FD teams, crap pitches and crap weather conditions
- Loss of mid-season advantage for European competitions will affect European performances
- 50% less big away attendances from the likes of Bohs, Rovers etc.
- Increased isolation for already struggling First Division clubs
- a silly filler season for H1 2012
- 6 less league fixtures, 3 less home equates to a 17% decrease in matchday income over season for clubs
- the failure of the 16 team Irish League premier division


This proposal is the implementation of 2 nuclear options, Winter football and the 16 team league. I think implementing one of these proposals is risky enough for the league but implementing both is borderline suicidal, the cons weigh far too much than the pros.