16 Team Premier Division / Winter Season from 2012/13 TODAY'S DAILY MAIL

[pineapple stu]

It's probably too much to ask of Pineapple Stu to compare the attendances during weekends with GAA to the other weekends
Yes; yes it is. :p

[bennocelt]

Or even how they've benefitted the clubs themselves?

Best performers in europe in the last 7 years; Cork, Derry, Shels, Pats, Drogheda. Only Pats haven't been relegated and our European runs haven't added many to the gate (if any at all)

So are you hoping you will snatch that final euro place this weekend or not, or does it matter?

[Dodge]

Its enjoyable for fans yeah. Might bring in the odd shilling in the short term.

Hasn't helped us bring in any fans

[legendz]

I've no preference for summer or winter football. I was surprised it came up as an issue though.
On the subject anyways, one argument put forward for summer football is European results. TNS of Wales seemed to get on ok against Boh's this summer. Pre-season training usually lasts 4-6 weeks? If there was a mid-July start, sides in Europe could get back training in early June.
On possible poor crowds in Winter. Magner's league games get good crowds in Winter. GAA Junior, Intermediate and Senior club Provincial and All-Ireland series games get good crowds as well despite the time of year and the conditions. It comes down to the games and the level of interest. I'm not sure the time of year matters all that much and attendances will go up or down either way.
For the A Championship, a move to winter football might be best. If clubs want to apply, it'd be easier to join in the summer and if they want to leave the A Championship, it's easier to leave in the spring/summer and drop into whatever league in the summer/autumn.

[Lim till i die]

For the A Championship, a move to winter football might be best. If clubs want to apply, it'd be easier to join in the summer and if they want to leave the A Championship, it's easier to leave in the spring/summer and drop into whatever league in the summer/autumn.

It's much easier to get players to sign for your A Championship side in the current setup than it would be if it was ran during the winter imo.

[KianD]

Its enjoyable for fans yeah. Might bring in the odd shilling in the short term.

Hasn't helped us bring in any fans

I have a mate from England who went to the Elfsborgs game, has now been back twice since, bought a replica shirt, drunk in McDowells and considers himself a Pats fan.

I worry he is the sole exception to prove the rule, though.

[legendz]

Performing well seems to be dismissed or seen as something that should be seen as a bonus. I guess it is a bonus in someways but performing in Europe is surely important for the promotion of the league. There have been good results here and there but no club have consistently done well. Boh's missed a good chance this season to have a good-run to the Europa League play-offs. Good results over a few years, it doesn't necessarily have to be group stage qualification but knocking on the door would raise the league's profile.

[legendz]

It's much easier to get players to sign for your A Championship side in the current setup than it would be if it was ran during the winter imo.

I'd have thought it'd have been easier in the summer when players have finished the season with a club and might want to take on a challenge for the new season. It's not easy for new clubs to come or go in the summer season to/from a winter season.

[PartySaint]

Its enjoyable for fans yeah. Might bring in the odd shilling in the short term.

Hasn't helped us bring in any fans

You don't no that Dodge, I'm sure if you went around the Saints fans in Sligo tonight some of them would be there because they got hooked from a European game they went to over the last few years

[osarusan]

I guess it is a bonus in someways but performing in Europe is surely important for the promotion of the league.
But it's been pointed out that performing (relatively) well in europe hasn't raised the profile of the league in general, and hasn't even resulted in a significant improvement in the attendances of the teams that perfromed in Europe. As Dodge pointed out earlier, of all the teams that had decent runs in Europe, St. Pats are the only team that aren't suffering for it now. Even overachieving in Europe through unsustainable wages to players hasn't helped the league or the clubs themselves.

[punkrocket]

Or World Cups

There's usually a break during the big tourneys and only the odd clash with the popular games. Interest levels in all football, including LOI, increase during euros/WCs especially when Ireland qualify.

Now, if only we could qualify for something some time....

[Spudulika]

Solely on the topic of Europe, and performances not raising the level of attendance or interest in the league, this is largely down to the clubs and FAI. You can grab headlines with a good run in Europe, however people won't bother coming back if what they experience is sub-standard, especially floating fans. There are lots of why's and why nots, though facilities (or lack thereof) take a share of the blame, likewise the too often lack of re-investment in clubs from money gained, plus the limited and parochial nature of the LOI. I cannot 100% remember the rule, but if you get in 10 customers, 2-3 will buy, 1-2 will come back at a later date and 50% will never want a repeat experience. Now if you look at, for example, Shels in 2004, they should, in this way, have been packing Tolka every 2nd week, so why weren't they? Was it all the barstoolers fault? Was it the meeja? I think it's a little simpler - lack or management and foresight from the club coupled with mismanagement from the FAI - again this is just an opinion.

[legendz]

But it's been pointed out that performing (relatively) well in europe hasn't raised the profile of the league in general, and hasn't even resulted in a significant improvement in the attendances of the teams that perfromed in Europe. As Dodge pointed out earlier, of all the teams that had decent runs in Europe, St. Pats are the only team that aren't suffering for it now. Even overachieving in Europe through unsustainable wages to players hasn't helped the league or the clubs themselves.
You make the point there, relatively well success it what has been achieved. There has been no box-office stuff.
The important thing is being clubs being well run. I'm not looking for clubs to lead themselves to financial ruin on a European gamble. European performances are important though and the coefficient table is a reflection of the leagues standing.

[legendz]

Solely on the topic of Europe, and performances not raising the level of attendance or interest in the league, this is largely down to the clubs and FAI. You can grab headlines with a good run in Europe, however people won't bother coming back if what they experience is sub-standard, especially floating fans. There are lots of why's and why nots, though facilities (or lack thereof) take a share of the blame, likewise the too often lack of re-investment in clubs from money gained, plus the limited and parochial nature of the LOI. I cannot 100% remember the rule, but if you get in 10 customers, 2-3 will buy, 1-2 will come back at a later date and 50% will never want a repeat experience. Now if you look at, for example, Shels in 2004, they should, in this way, have been packing Tolka every 2nd week, so why weren't they? Was it all the barstoolers fault? Was it the meeja? I think it's a little simpler - lack or management and foresight from the club coupled with mismanagement from the FAI - again this is just an opinion.
It's down to the club's really at the end of the day. Shel's missed an opportunity to work on the support from those games in '04.
They didn't back it up which much success either which confined it to a one hit wonder.

[osarusan]

The important thing is being clubs being well run. I'm not looking for clubs to lead themselves to financial ruin on a European gamble.

Seeing as how the less than box-office stuff was mainly achieved by clubs who were spending what they didn't have, all LOI clubs being well run would probably result in even less successful European campaigns than now, at least in the short term.

And even the overspenders are/were miles away from box-office stuff. The only real hope of box-office stuff is what happens with Rovers this year - that a club gets lucky in the draw against probably the most famous team in the competition.

[Spudulika]

Osarusan, I agree with you in that the bigspenders were miles away from the big time, even Shels, though better run clubs stand a far better chance of making progress than ramshackle rovers (this is not a snipe at either of the Premier bearers of this name). If clubs were run better, with a properly set up youth system, proper promotions and game day experience, earning what they spend and playing in a well run league, then in 4-5 years you'd have an Irish club making a breakthrough, initially to the Europa League groups. I've seen how other countries have done it, some with far poorer average crowds than ours, and in countries where football stands at the same level as it does here. It's about proper management and organisation. Not hand to mouth as we do right now (again not a snipe at any clubs or organisation).

[legendz]

There isn't a whole lot wrong with a league that has only 5 points separating the top 4. Hopefully now they can all at least maintain their current level and do well in Europe next season.

[Réiteoir]

I have a mate from England who went to the Elfsborgs game, has now been back twice since, bought a replica shirt, drunk in McDowells and considers himself a Pats fan.

I worry he is the sole exception to prove the rule, though.

Not at all - I've managed to get half a dozen or so English mates to come across to games, most are now followers of the League on a casual basis.

When I ask them in June or July if they fancy a trip over to Dublin for the weekend to see the football - the answer's always been "Yeah, quite fancy that"

When I ask them in March-May or September-November if they fancy heading to see a game and a weekend over - it's always "Oh, it clashes with a Spurs/Liverpool/Man Utd/England (delete as appropriate) game I'm off to see" or "Don't fancy that - it'll be far too cold to stand around watching the game".

It always finishes with the statement "Let me know if you're going over in the summer when it's close season here - I'd be interested then!"

[born2bwild]

There are problems with switching to winter football and a 16 team league.
The weather will keep people away: say what you want about the 'special' experience of being under floodlights on a rainy night, rain keeps people inside.
We'll be competing with Premier league fixtures.
There will be fewer matches (BIG problem)
The lower end of DIV 1 might as well just give up and the GAA will feed off the leftovers.
None of the arguments for winter football make any sense to me.

[Macy]

Not at all - I've managed to get half a dozen or so English mates to come across to games, most are now followers of the League on a casual basis.

When I ask them in June or July if they fancy a trip over to Dublin for the weekend to see the football - the answer's always been "Yeah, quite fancy that"

When I ask them in March-May or September-November if they fancy heading to see a game and a weekend over - it's always "Oh, it clashes with a Spurs/Liverpool/Man Utd/England (delete as appropriate) game I'm off to see" or "Don't fancy that - it'll be far too cold to stand around watching the game".

It always finishes with the statement "Let me know if you're going over in the summer when it's close season here - I'd be interested then!"
So you're proposing basing the league season on reverse barstoolers travelling once or twice a season?

[Steve Bruce]

Is the move to Winter Football definately happening? And if so when will the first season be affected (not the first winter season, the first transitional season on the way to winter)

[Mr A]

Neither of the moves discussed here have been confirmed yet. I'd say the 16 team league is more likely than the move back to winter. The first season to be affected would be the one after next which would be the transitional one.

[Hibs4Ever]

We'll be competing with Premier league fixtures.




Can't ever remember Premier League games on a Friday night

[peadar1987]

Can't ever remember Premier League games on a Friday night

Unfortunately, most of the Irish public would chose a Friday night English Premier League build-up show over League of Ireland.

[marinobohs]

There are problems with switching to winter football and a 16 team league.
The weather will keep people away: say what you want about the 'special' experience of being under floodlights on a rainy night, rain keeps people inside.
We'll be competing with Premier league fixtures.
There will be fewer matches (BIG problem)
The lower end of DIV 1 might as well just give up and the GAA will feed off the leftovers.
None of the arguments for winter football make any sense to me.

On a slight aside has summer football attracted many northern fans to LOI games ? I recall meeting some lads from Portadown at Hunky Dory park that regularly came down for Drogs matches. Suppose this would apply to most teams around the border ?

Do many on here ever venture north in our "off season" ?

[BonnieShels]

Have been trying to go to to Newry City for years. Maybe this season.

[holidaysong]

Newry now play their games on Friday nights. Makes it a bit harder to get to rather than a 3pm Saturday game. I'm planning to go to the Newry vs. Coleraine match on December 10th all going well.

[BonnieShels]

I may see you there. this weekend has been Rather empty. I hate the off-season.

[Duffman]

On a slight aside has summer football attracted many northern fans to LOI games ? I recall meeting some lads from Portadown at Hunky Dory park that regularly came down for Drogs matches. Suppose this would apply to most teams around the border ?

Do many on here ever venture north in our "off season" ?

Seems to be a bit of a connection there, I was at Portadown/Glentoran last year and there was the dulcet tones of the SouthLouther in the bar, about 4 or 5 of them in Drogs jerseys. This time of the year I get to about 1 a fortnight up north and occasionally there are a few LOI fans knocking about. I know that in the past Dundalk have had lads from Newry and ARmagh in for the games, that goes back to a Thursday night though.

[pineapple stu]

Fran Gavin comments (http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/1110/gavinf_airtricity.html). Curiously without uttering a single word.

[Jofspring]

Supposedly he was saying it on TV3 last night.

[Shannonsider]

Unfortunately, most of the Irish public would chose a Friday night English Premier League build-up show over League of Ireland.


Just like most of the Irish Public would chose watching the Late Late Show, going to the pub, anything at all instead of going to a League of Ireland. There will always be excusing until the League improves. Simple as. We will always have the loyal, hardcore support but nothing else will follow unless the League continues to improve and winter football will not solve or change anything. Just like there will be people going away for weekends etc.. in the summer there will also be people saying it is too cold, im watching tv etc.. in the winter.

[Dodge]

Have heard from a guy I know involved with Rovers that the 16 team league wis definitely happening.

Strangely it'll be 1 down, 7 up! Wiht the A league sides promoted to the first division (and they're hoping to entice two new sides in too).

[Mr A]

Sounds mad.

It'd make a lot more sense to have a two legged playoff between 7th in the first and last in the premier. I think it's important to have some prospect of relegation but it seems very harsh to finish to drop straight out of the 16 from there.

[Jofspring]

Have heard from a guy I know involved with Rovers that the 16 team league wis definitely happening.

Strangely it'll be 1 down, 7 up! Wiht the A league sides promoted to the first division (and they're hoping to entice two new sides in too).

It would be interesting to see how teams would set up for the season ahead in the First Division if this goes ahead. There is no point in teams spending money to try win the league if a top 7 would suffice.


If it was to have happened this year the league next season would have looked like this:

Premier:

Shamrock Rovers
Bohemians
Sligo Rovers
Sporting Fingal
St.Patricks Athletic
Dundalk
UCD
Galway
Bray
Derry
Waterford
Monaghan
Shelbourne
Limerick
Cork
Wexford Youths

First:

Drogheda
Finn Harps
Longford
Athlone
Mervue
Salthill
Cobh Ramblers
Tralee Dynamos
Castlebar
Tullamore Town
FC Carlow

A Championship:

"A" teams for the 16 Premier Teams and possibly invite a few more junior or senior league clubs that might be interested?


Nice spread of teams around the country there in both divisions and i think every game would be bigger as you would only play each other twice in the season. Could the licensing be a problem for some teams.

[gufct]

There will be no relegation next year.

[Dodge]

It seems mad to me that Athlone and Harps wouldn't be part of a 16 team premier given their history.

I realise that counts for nothing now.

[Jofspring]

It seems mad to me that Athlone and Harps wouldn't be part of a 16 team premier given their history.

I realise that counts for nothing now.

Ya true but they should be in a strong enough position to challenge for promotion their first year in the new division one i would think.


3 up 3 down the following season or 2 straight down, 2 up and a play off for 3 from bottom premier and 3 in division 1?

[shep]

Have heard from a guy I know involved with Rovers that the 16 team league wis definitely happening.

Strangely it'll be 1 down, 7 up! Wiht the A league sides promoted to the first division (and they're hoping to entice two new sides in too).

Did he mention anything about if it would be Winter/Summer...or was it just 16 team he had heard

[stann]

Would it not be the case that it'll be the top 6 teams with a Premier licence that would go up?
If this year's licences carried through to next season Jofspring's list wouldn't look quite like it does there (I know ourselves and Mons have one, can't remember off-hand about the rest of the Div 1 clubs, think there was 5 in total though?).
Anyway, any club with aspirations to be in the six next year will have work to do for the next few weeks if it is the case.

[Macy]

Would it not be the case that it'll be the top 6 teams with a Premier licence that would go up?
That's what I would've thought too, certainly licence depending. Although could just be wishful thinking given Longford had a premier licence this season.

[Jofspring]

Would it not be the case that it'll be the top 6 teams with a Premier licence that would go up?

Would think the top 6 in the league would just go up and any that don't get a premier licence will be replaced by next in line. Would think all the teams would get a premier licence. We would be the only ones who might not but the Markets Field could be secured at that stage so that could help grant us one.

[Macy]

We would be the only ones who might not but the Markets Field could be secured at that stage so that could help grant us one.
No club will fall on infrastructure - wishy washy plans has been enough for the ground part of a premier licence since the very start of bloody licencing!

[Jofspring]

No club will fall on infrastructure - wishy washy plans has been enough for the ground part of a premier licence since the very start of bloody licencing!

Thats why i think we will get through purely on having the Markets Field either lined up or are moving into it already. Jackman would probably fail alright as there is only one entrance and exit in the ground and if there is bigger crowds to be expected from travelling fans or even from home fans then Jackman would not be up to it. I think this has held us back from getting one previously.

[legendz]

The Division One listed above has 11 clubs. With 16 clubs in the Premier, until they can get 16 clubs to play at a national level in Division One, this Division should continue to be played over 3 or 4 series. 8 teams would give 28 games ( 4 games x 7 clubs ), 2 less than the Premier ( 2 games x 15 clubs = 30 game season ). 10 team division would give either 27 ( 3 games x 9 clubs ) or 36 ( 4 games x 9 clubs ).
I would think it might be best to start with 8, in time look to expand to 12 and then 16.
For relegation/promotion, possibly have 2 up, 2 down and a play-off between 14th Premier and 3rd Division One. If the division expanded to 16 run the play-off between 14th Premier and 3rd to 5th in Division One.

[Dodge]

Did he mention anything about if it would be Winter/Summer...or was it just 16 team he had heard

Not from him but apparently the winter thing is to be discussed more. Some clubs looking for studies into it apparently. The league will definitely change size within 18 months though

[pineapple stu]

FWIW on that last point, Gavin was quoted in the Mirror today as saying that the league may be 12 or 16 teams or somewhere in between. So it's not a definite that it'll be up to 16 teams (if you believe everything he says, which is obviously a bad idea). All he said on the summer/winter thing is that the FAI would be looking at it more closely.

[Jofspring]

Today FM sports news just said it is looking like a 12 team premier for 2012 with a view to expanding to 16 after that.

[legendz]

10 clubs to 12 clubs to 16 clubs is 36 games to 33 games to 30 games. Gradual progression.
If Division One ever gets expanded to 16 as well, back on the subject of the League Cup, the League Cup should be run as 8 groups of 4 giving Division One clubs more high profile games.

[Charlie Darwin]

Have heard from a guy I know involved with Rovers that the 16 team league wis definitely happening.

Strangely it'll be 1 down, 7 up! Wiht the A league sides promoted to the first division (and they're hoping to entice two new sides in too).
Are there two more Galway teams there to entice?