16 Team Premier Division / Winter Season from 2012/13 TODAY'S DAILY MAIL

[Sam_Heggy]

No harm lads but yer chatting through your rings.
The current established LOI clubs can't even get big enough gates to support them never mind some of the new sides.
The likes of Fanad are a fine Intermediate side with a good tradition in Junior football but they would not get more than 50/100 at home games. For me that's not good enough for senior football.
Also, this talk of having FORMER Derry and Harps players is bull. Fanad have a few former Harps lads, only one of which really featured, Paddy McGrenaghan (who is well past his best). The rest of them are lads that never made the grade at senior level, what makes them suddenly become good enough now?

I have seen Castlebar and Tullamore A League games with about 20 in attendance. What is there to suggest that they would magically improve the gates by going into the first division and, in all reality, getting whipped each week?

[Sam_Heggy]

Eh, not what I heard Sam.

Meeting is due the 15th AFAIK.

So, they're not giving the League cup winners a place in the Champions League either?

[legendz]

Chatting through rings and comments like... Champions League places for the League Cup... Some form of pyramid for Division One!!

It's a fair point that attendances are low in the A Championship. Football has to come on in these areas and it will take time I'd imagine.
While I cannot see why established clubs like Athlone Town or Harps will want to join a regional set-up, I think it will be a good move for the A Championship sides. The A Championship has a low profile and a regionalised First Division will give them more higher profile games.
The only way I'd support the split is if it's done with a view to look at expanding the Premier more in the future to 14 or 16.

[Dodge]

Clubs have voted to retain the summer season. A 12 team premier division in 2012

[oriel]

Good news, although increasing to 12 is not exactly ground breaking, even 14 would have made a big difference, but its better than 10, and I`m pleased to see the Summer retained.

Any news on the dreaded split Dodge ?

[Dodge]

According to mark McCadden (who with dan McDonnell are the most on the ball journos) the split is happening.

12 teams in the first division too

[culloty82]

So, if this is confirmed, the A Championship's staying. Will be interesting if they promote the top team in each section, or just the two clubs with most points.

[legendz]

Is the First Division of 12 going to have a split as well? Is the A Championship safe?
If the Premier of 12 is being done with a view to look at expanding in the future, I'm ok with it. If the lower section is labelled a relegation group after the split, from a marketing point of view, it's a negative name. I think it should adopt the title: Premier Division Shield. Shield for the winner and a place in Europa League play-offs as done in Wales with the split, so that the top side in the lower section has something worth while to play for.

[pineapple stu]

Clubs have voted to retain the summer season. A 12 team premier division in 2012
Any word on whether it's 2 up 0 down or 3 up 1 down? Or play-offs?

[Dodge]

Not that I saw. Again, it was only mcCadden tweeting about it. Came too late for today's papers I'd imagine

[gufct]

Its in todays Star Teams wanted 16 team league our esteemed league council or whatever its called have gone with 12 team league and split which was a disaster last time and will be this time as well.

[passerrby]

never heard of a league council but would expect that clubs had no say in whatever format is /has been decided, was told by a rovers fan yesterday that he heard that regionising is no longer in the plans

when you read somethiing in the star be prepared to use large amounts of salt

[Dodge]

Star is usually bang on for the LOI in fairness.

The problem is some peiople read a line like "teams wanted" and read that as "all teams"

[legendz]

A report in Scotland on proposals on how their league can move forward is suggesting that their top two leagues have 10 clubs in each. The report suggests regionalising their lower leagues and the formation of a pyramid structure.

[John83]

A report in Scotland on proposals on how their league can move forward is suggesting that their top two leagues have 10 clubs in each. The report suggests regionalising their lower leagues and the formation of a pyramid structure.
Is it by those morons at Genesis?

[legendz]

Is it by those morons at Genesis?

It seems to have been an individual who was put in charge of the report. It has the support of the Scottish manager. I don't think the practice of it will work. Scotland like Ireland had a 10 team Premier before but the clubs sought an expansion to 12 which led them to the current split format.

[Dodge]

The split format which they're now admitting has failed.

[legendz]

It's hard to know until they put into practice but if they go to a 10 team Premier, some clubs feel left out and then there's pressure to increase the numbers again.

[bluemovie]

What we really need is less consistency. Why keep a settled format like the most successful leagues? I propose we feed dozens of possibilities that have already been tried into a randomised computer programme and see what comes out. That would solve all our problems. For example, in 2014 we could have a winter season with an 8 team top flight, a split half way through the season, 4 points for an away win, goal difference to count at the bottom of the table but not the top and points deductions for bad penmanship. Pat Grace might be enticed back as a sponsor.

[BonnieShels]

Completely agree. It can't fail.

[Mr A]

What we really need is less consistency. Why keep a settled format like the most successful leagues? I propose we feed dozens of possibilities that have already been tried into a randomised computer programme and see what comes out. That would solve all our problems. For example, in 2014 we could have a winter season with an 8 team top flight, a split half way through the season, 4 points for an away win, goal difference to count at the bottom of the table but not the top and points deductions for bad penmanship. Pat Grace might be enticed back as a sponsor.

This actually makes more sense than the recent proposals for the league.

Mind you so does this:

http://godhatesprotesters.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/i_shaved_my_balls.jpg

[legendz]

What we really need is less consistency. Why keep a settled format like the most successful leagues? I propose we feed dozens of possibilities that have already been tried into a randomised computer programme and see what comes out. That would solve all our problems. For example, in 2014 we could have a winter season with an 8 team top flight, a split half way through the season, 4 points for an away win, goal difference to count at the bottom of the table but not the top and points deductions for bad penmanship. Pat Grace might be enticed back as a sponsor.

Fantastic idea! Definitely the way forward, going forward!!

[Neish]

Has any official decision been made on this yet, if not when id the decision due?

[legendz]

Has any official decision been made on this yet, if not when id the decision due?

It's an interesting question, one a lot of us are awaiting the answers on.
There's a good debate going on in Scotland on how their league is going to move forward, very similar to points raised on this thread. It was proposed they'd move from a 12 division with a split to a 10 team division. Opposition is coming against that idea, clubs their want the strategy group to explore the possibility of a bigger league. The Kilmarnock chairman reckons "I think a 10-team league could work, but there are all sorts of permutations that could work better." He's thrown out a suggestion of them moving to a larger division where they only play home and away once and also bring in the play-offs as they have in Holland. "There's all manners of ways of getting the right number of fixtures and having arrangements with play-offs that make it attractive to TV companies and for commercial reasons." "There are pros and cons. I think everybody is aware that there have to be compromises and there isn't a perfect solution that is going to suit everybody.
"If it came to the crunch and we had to lose one Old Firm match at Rugby Park, that would be a price worth paying if we got the right model.
"There are a lot of issues surrounding any new structure and we need to talk about those on Monday and keep an open mind."

Interesting debate in Scotland, it's no surprise I'm interest in the discussions with all these formats and play-offs being discussed! :D The FAI could have done well to look at what's going on in Scotland and Wales as well with their move to the split format. The LoI clubs looking for the 16 team Premier seem to have had the right idea on how the league should move forward but time will tell I guess.

[Schumi]

Meanwhile Scotland are discussing going exactly the opposite way with their structure.

http://sport.scotsman.com/sport/Scottish-football39s-revolution-The-SPL.6665475.jp

[legendz]

A 16 team Premier with play-offs will feature in their discussions. Someone in Scotland must have been checking out this forum!

[BonnieShels]

That has been roundly dismissed. It's gonna be 2 divisions of 10 playing each other 4 times. With a split and a gold star for the seventh placed team in the "who has the prettiest jersey" competition.

[legendz]

That has been roundly dismissed. It's gonna be 2 divisions of 10 playing each other 4 times. With a split and a gold star for the seventh placed team in the "who has the prettiest jersey" competition.

Noone can say for sure it will be two divisions of 10. That's what the strategy group will be proposing but there will be a discussion with all their clubs and a vote. There is opposition to that move. What has been roundly dismissed has been the idea that the top 4 in their league would play-off for the league title, that would be ridiculous.

[thischarmingman]

If there's a play-off for the league title, I'm giving up LOI football.

[gufc2000]

If there's a play-off for the league title, I'm giving up LOI football.
This thread has descended into such a prolonged discussion that they're talking about Scottish proposals now....I think the play-off referred to is the one that is being proposed in Scotland

[legendz]

This thread has descended into such a prolonged discussion that they're talking about Scottish proposals now....I think the play-off referred to is the one that is being proposed in Scotland

Yeah, that's right. I didn't mean to go off topic but just wanted to draw some comparisons with what is going on there.

[nigel-harps1954]

Yeah, that's right. I didn't mean to go off topic but just wanted to draw some comparisons with what is going on there.

Well....don't.......................jeeeesh.

[passerrby]

why in gods name do we always look for comparisons something that works somewhere else or not is no indication that it would be the same here. every other country,league is unique .

[BonnieShels]

why in gods name do we always look for comparisons something that works somewhere else or not is no indication that it would be the same here. every other country,league is unique .

And ours is even more unique than them.
:o

[peadar1987]

why in gods name do we always look for comparisons something that works somewhere else or not is no indication that it would be the same here. every other country,league is unique .

It still can be a good indication, if appropriate comparisons are made. Saying Scotland often lose games to the weather due to winter football is an appropriate comparison. Saying England has the richest league in the world, so we should build an exact replica of St. James' Park in Limerick is a daft comparison.

[poster]

Let Tom decide who wins, goes down, goes bust, goes into play-offs, who manages who, who gets to play where and who the biggest 'codder' in the league is.

[nigel-harps1954]

It still can be a good indication, if appropriate comparisons are made. Saying Scotland often lose games to the weather due to winter football is an appropriate comparison. Saying England has the richest league in the world, so we should build an exact replica of St. James' Park in Limerick is a daft comparison.

This would technically make sense if we had the same climate as Scotland. But since most of Scotland sees snow at half a sniff of a temperature below 5 celsius this makes a big difference.
Making comparisons to other leagues just makes no sense. Its a completely different fanbase, climate and financial situation amongst other circumstances.
We survived healthily for many many years in a winter season.
Since the inception of the summer season the league has fast gone downhill. European success is complete load of ******** because simply there has been no success. Beating the odd eastern european pub team is no success. Getting hammered by any half decent team (ALA TNS) most definitely is no success.
The closest thing we have seen to success is Shels close run of Deportivo, and that was a good while back now, 2004 if i'm correct?

I'd go back to winter football in a heartbeat.

[L.T.F.C.]

This would technically make sense if we had the same climate as Scotland. But since most of Scotland sees snow at half a sniff of a temperature below 5 celsius this makes a big difference.
Making comparisons to other leagues just makes no sense. Its a completely different fanbase, climate and financial situation amongst other circumstances.
We survived healthily for many many years in a winter season.
Since the inception of the summer season the league has fast gone downhill. European success is complete load of ******** because simply there has been no success. Beating the odd eastern european pub team is no success. Getting hammered by any half decent team (ALA TNS) most definitely is no success.
The closest thing we have seen to success is Shels close run of Deportivo, and that was a good while back now, 2004 if i'm correct?

I'd go back to winter football in a heartbeat.

I'm glad I don't see you around here often when you come out with tripe like that.

Have you heard what happened to Shelbourne since those glorious matches against Deportivo?

[nigel-harps1954]

I'm glad I don't see you around here often when you come out with tripe like that.

Have you heard what happened to Shelbourne since those glorious matches against Deportivo?

Next time you wish to call what I say tripe, at least back it up with point. I didn't say Shels was a success story, I said it was the closest thing to success we had in europe. Why if we're so high and mighty in europe all of a sudden, has not even one club in 8 years of this almighty summer football qualified for a major european tournament? If anything in the last 2/3 years we have been going backwards. There is plenty of evidence to suggest this.

[L.T.F.C.]

Next time you wish to call what I say tripe, at least back it up with point. I didn't say Shels was a success story, I said it was the closest thing to success we had in europe. Why if we're so high and mighty in europe all of a sudden, has not even one club in 8 years of this almighty summer football qualified for a major european tournament? If anything in the last 2/3 years we have been going backwards. There is plenty of evidence to suggest this.

I only had to mention Shelbourne to validate my point. It wasn't success. That whole campaign was built on something fake, something that wasn't there. They banked on projected success and they didn't get it. Sure it would have been great if they had gotten through, and their financial fairyness would have not come to light when it did, and Shelbourne might be still in the Premier League. People thought that this was it for Irish football, and look at them now.

[BonnieShels]

Nigel why is that a good enough reason for going back to winter football?We have what we have so unless there is a serious compelling reason to go back to a winter season then we shouldn't even contemplate it. Just because we haven't had success in Europe doesn't mean we should revert to a winter season.
There are other things in the LOI that need to be sorted rather than when the season occurs.

[peadar1987]

This would technically make sense if we had the same climate as Scotland. But since most of Scotland sees snow at half a sniff of a temperature below 5 celsius this makes a big difference.

Making comparisons to other leagues just makes no sense. Its a completely different fanbase, climate and financial situation amongst other circumstances.

It's hardly wildly different. At least, not enough to make any comparison completely invalid. Looking at how people in other countries have made their leagues work, and weighing up ideas on how well they would serve us, given the specific circumstances is a good idea. Having lived in Scotland for 12 months, I can tell you that very little about the place is "completely different" to their neighbours just a few hundred kilometres away.




We survived healthily for many many years in a winter season.

Since the inception of the summer season the league has fast gone downhill. European success is complete load of ******** because simply there has been no success. Beating the odd eastern european pub team is no success. Getting hammered by any half decent team (ALA TNS) most definitely is no success.
The closest thing we have seen to success is Shels close run of Deportivo, and that was a good while back now, 2004 if i'm correct?

How much European success was there before the switch to summer football? You can't use this as a reason! And the primary problem; the league's financial woes, has nothing to do with the mean matchday temperature, and everything to do with the completely unlinked unsustainable spending policies of the league clubs.

[BonnieShels]

You are having a very angry Christmas there Peadar.

[peadar1987]

You are having a very angry Christmas there Peadar.

Yeah, all those steroids Santa brought me are kicking in!

[frenchman]

we have progressed stop putting this into question



definition from the oxford dictionary of progress



progress(pro|gress)

noun

Pronunciation:/ˈprəʊgrɛs/
[mass noun]

1 forward or onward movement towards a destination:the darkness did not stop my progressthey failed to make any progress up the estuary
[count noun] archaic a state journey or official tour, especially by royalty.
2 development towards an improved or more advanced condition:we are making progress towards equal rights

uefa country coefficient for the last 16 years going back though summer soccer change (the 8 years since and the 8 years preceding 1/1.375/2.5/1/2.83/1.83/1.3/0.33 CHANGEOVER 0.166/0.66/1.66/0.33/0.5/0.166/0.33/0.33...average of last eight years 1.52 average of eigth years leading up to change-over 0.60 HERE THE FIRST NUMBER IS BIGGER THAN THE SECOND SO THE LEAGUE HAS GOT BETTER SINCE THE CHANGE (beacuse of the change? maybe not but it is better)
another way of showing this is the country ranking.Here are the last 16 years leading up to today's 29th position 35th,37th,43rd,44th,41st,41st,38th,37th,39th,40th, 38th,40th,35th,35th,30th,29th today
we have not reached the promised land of group stages, sky matches or long haired tanned footballers in magazines but ON FOOTBALLING TERMS we are better than before. to deny the fact that we have made progress is totally insane. yes we all bragged about the gretna hammering and shels when they were doing well and of course we all cringed when dundalk crept past a pub team but all teams and leagues in the world have bad days at the office.
for me there were 3 major resaons for the change in ''fortunes''. the CELTIC TIGER/ PROFESSIONAL TEAMS/ SUMMER SOCCER
NUMBER ONE : is gone and certanly caused a lot of mismanagement among chairmen, ''we are irish this boom will never stop, we are a different kind of people who are totally immune to basis economic logic'' and all that sh1te.........
NUMBER TWO : is a knock-on effect from the first and third reason, but I do feel that it is possible (even in the present climate) BEING PROFESSIONAL MEANS THAT IT IS YOUR PRIMARY / SOLE SOURCE OF INCOME. nothing stipulates that you have to earn millions and be on the cover of magazines and wear fake tan!!!! what is wrong with earning 250 quid a week, not paying a rent and playing football in front of 2000 a week........christ I'd do it!!!!
NUMBER THREE : this was a very good decision in my opinion. results have improved and even if we go back to part-time teams the fact that we are fitter going into games in July/August means we can win more than before!!!!!

[BonnieShels]

Yeah, all those steroids Santa brought me are kicking in!

Try not to Benoit.

[holidaysong]

I see there are no dates for promotion / relegation playoffs in the fixture list. Also, with the cup final one week after the season ends (rather than two), they wouldn't have much room to squeeze them in there. Therefore you can only assume they'll be going with three up and one down next year to get us to a 12 team Premier.

[BonnieShels]

You are, pray not, applying logic to the evidence as presented by the FAI?
Looks like we are finishing 4th.

[passerrby]

I see there are no dates for promotion / relegation playoffs in the fixture list. Also, with the cup final one week after the season ends (rather than two), they wouldn't have much room to squeeze them in there. Therefore you can only assume they'll be going with three up and one down next year to get us to a 12 team Premier.
think there will be no relegation or playoff so only two up

[bennocelt]

This would technically make sense if we had the same climate as Scotland. But since most of Scotland sees snow at half a sniff of a temperature below 5 celsius this makes a big difference.
Making comparisons to other leagues just makes no sense. Its a completely different fanbase, climate and financial situation amongst other circumstances.
We survived healthily for many many years in a winter season.
Since the inception of the summer season the league has fast gone downhill. European success is complete load of ******** because simply there has been no success. Beating the odd eastern european pub team is no success. Getting hammered by any half decent team (ALA TNS) most definitely is no success.
The closest thing we have seen to success is Shels close run of Deportivo, and that was a good while back now, 2004 if i'm correct?

I'd go back to winter football in a heartbeat.

You talk about evidence and facts then miss the most obvious one - Frenchman got to it before me - Irish clubs have progressed in Europe - I remember when we were in the 40's with Malta and Norn Iron for company, and clubs were doing well to get a win the preliminary round. Small progress granted but al least Irish teams expect to get by the first round they encounter and maybe even a little further. That's progress.