16 Team Premier Division / Winter Season from 2012/13 TODAY'S DAILY MAIL

[micls]

There's 10 premier teams, so 3 first division clubs have a premier licence (including Longford iirc).

Going a bit loopy :) Forgot it was only 10 in the premier!

[Macy]

Going a bit loopy :) Forgot it was only 10 in the premier!
The rest of the post was right thought - there's several things that aren't needed for the first division licence that are easily sorted for the premier division licence (such as CPO's). The stuff that is harder, such as infrastructure, is already fudge central for a number of existing premier teams.

[Buller]

i'd just like to point out that we have lost to latvians during the summer seasons

No... no, bold Longford fan. You're not allowed talk about anything to do with Europe ever again, okay? Or at least another 10 years.

Seriously a move from summer football would be a very bad regression for a whole host of reasons. I think Jicked nailed them on the first page of this thread. There's just too many negatives for the one positive of "a better atmosphere in the dark".

[Dodge]

Seriously a move from summer football would be a very bad regression for a whole host of reasons. I think Jicked nailed them on the first page of this thread

And others like Macy and Shedendinvis have offered pretty compelling arguments why summer has proven not to work.

[Macy]

Seriously a move from summer football would be a very bad regression for a whole host of reasons. I think Jicked nailed them on the first page of this thread. There's just too many negatives for the one positive of "a better atmosphere in the dark".

Jicked, and you, haven't outlined any reasons. It was "inventive" and lead to some unspecified "good results" seems to be the sum total of reasons Jicked gave. I'm not sure how "the weather is better" is a justified argument (despite the evidence contradicting the impact of that), and "the atmosphere being better in the dark" isn't?

[Magicme]

You dont need a CPO to get a Premier Licence, it was one of the benefits of having a Premier Licence that the FAI will part fund your CPO.

[GalwayRed]

And others like Macy and Shedendinvis have offered pretty compelling arguments why summer has proven not to work.
Yes but there haven't been many compelling arguments as to why winter football will work. All I've seen so far is how it would be great to watch matches under the lights. The people who don't want to go to matches and waste a nice summer evening are the same people who would rather sit at home and watch the tv on a cold winter evening.
The league needs a lot of work in other areas and changing the season the league is played in isn't going to improve things.

[pineapple stu]

There's been no compelling arguments as to why either would work. That's the whole problem. People on both sides are saying their side is better, but as it stands, the move is headless and won't do much either way.

[Jicked]

I think the amount of coverage the league receives is a pretty compelling argument to be honest. It's perfectly clear that LoI gets more attention in the Irish press in the summer months when entire pull-out souvenir editions are being rolled out if Rooney picks his nose.

The League gets more press coverage, there are more games on TV during the summer months when broadcasters are looking for live sport to show (and no chance of UEFA CL stopping LoI games being shown on TV), this raises the profile of the league and makes it more desirable for advertisers to associate with the League.

Now I understand that the above doesn't necessarily have much of an impact on say Mervue, Salthill or even some smaller Premier Division teams who won't feature much on TV or in the press, but it does bring money in to the league and keep the profile up. That should be commended and encouraged, instead of letting small-mindedness mean Salthill have a say in when the league is played because Mrs Donnelly does the bingo on a Friday in the summer and wouldn't be able to run the fizzy drink stall.

[Dodge]

I think the amount of coverage the league receives is a pretty compelling argument to be honest. It's perfectly clear that LoI gets more attention in the Irish press in the summer months
Is it clear? Not to me.


The League gets more press coverage, there are more games on TV during the summer months when broadcasters are looking for live sport to show (and no chance of UEFA CL stopping LoI games being shown on TV), this raises the profile of the league and makes it more desirable for advertisers to associate with the League.
the LOI was actually off air throughout the summer months. The busy periods for Live TV has been the start and end of the seasons (the two that would make it part of the winter season)


That should be commended and encouraged, instead of letting small-mindedness mean Salthill have a say in when the league is played because Mrs Donnelly does the bingo on a Friday in the summer and wouldn't be able to run the fizzy drink stall.

Patronise much? Clubs like Sligo have come out in favour of the winter season. Clubs like Salthill have sid nothing. And DOn't forget that 4 years ago you were at the level that Slathill is now

[pineapple stu]

there are more games on TV during the summer months when broadcasters are looking for live sport to show
Funny - and I don't have stats on this - but I always felt there were less games shown live during the summer, presumably because RTÉ are busy showing the GAA.

[legendz]

I don't think it makes much difference either. It is important though that clubs representing the league in Europe are in a good condition, summer football would seem to help with that.
If the league did start in mid-July, it'd be a good time to get a lot of the press coverage for it. Finishing around March/April then would be ahead of most other competitions again being in the spotlight more at that time.

[passerrby]

I think the amount of coverage the league receives is a pretty compelling argument to be honest. It's perfectly clear that LoI gets more attention in the Irish press in the summer months when entire pull-out souvenir editions are being rolled out if Rooney picks his nose.

The League gets more press coverage, there are more games on TV during the summer months when broadcasters are looking for live sport to show (and no chance of UEFA CL stopping LoI games being shown on TV), this raises the profile of the league and makes it more desirable for advertisers to associate with the League.

Now I understand that the above doesn't necessarily have much of an impact on say Mervue, Salthill or even some smaller Premier Division teams who won't feature much on TV or in the press, but it does bring money in to the league and keep the profile up. That should be commended and encouraged, instead of letting small-mindedness mean Salthill have a say in when the league is played because Mrs Donnelly does the bingo on a Friday in the summer and wouldn't be able to run the fizzy drink stall.

how patronising can one be. salthill or anybody have a vote like everybody else and that vote is no less important than anybody elses. you have a short memory. I would not like to return to winter football but no club has any more say than anybody else even if they think they are superior.

[pineapple stu]

TV schedule for this year is here (http://foot.ie/threads/139514-Where-have-all-the-live-games-gone?p=1390354&viewfull=1#post1390354). One game shown in each of June, July and August. Four games in March, four in April and three in May. So there's at least one argument which can be definitely shot down.

[osarusan]

I'd say that the reason no compelling arguments can be made for either winter or summer football is because the problems of the LOI aren't really related to the issue.

[Jicked]

Is it clear? Not to me.


the LOI was actually off air throughout the summer months. The busy periods for Live TV has been the start and end of the seasons (the two that would make it part of the winter season)



Patronise much? Clubs like Sligo have come out in favour of the winter season. Clubs like Salthill have sid nothing. And DOn't forget that 4 years ago you were at the level that Slathill is now

I don't consider it patronising, it's looking at something realistically instead of just being small-minded about things. Good on Salthill, Mervue too, best of luck to them if they think that their interests are best served playing in the LoI, but that a club that, let's face it, contributes almost nothing to the senior game such as Salthill, can potentially have such a large say in the direction of the League is just wrong. And no, Shamrock Rovers weren't ever at Salthill's level despite your rather petty and irrelevant jibe. Nor are Shelbourne, Cork FORAS, Derry etc.

Apologies about the summer games being on TV, I was wrong on that front. But our busiest periods for TV coverage are the start and end of our season, when we go up against two irrelevant times in the English game, March (when the christmas period has died down and before a title race has got going) and October (when there's no 'crunch' games and the big sides are playing out tedious Champions League group games). Put the LoI climax up against a Man Utd/Man City title race and we'll see how much coverage we get. And yes, to me it is pretty clear that we get more coverage in the summer months when football writers are stuck with filling (admittedly less) football column inches without anything happening in the UK (even the transfer market doesn't offer compelling stories like it once did)




how patronising can one be. salthill or anybody have a vote like everybody else and that vote is no less important than anybody elses. you have a short memory.


In my opinion, maybe one vote should be more important than another, if it results in greater progression for the League as a whole. That's not necessarily Shamrock Rovers, Bohemians or UCD's vote, but perhaps the FAIs. The League is far too petty and small-minded, in League's that have flourished across Europe they haven't been afraid to make bold decisions in the greater interest, instead of letting say Blackpool, Wigan and West Brom dictate the direction of the Premier League. It's not that they're not considered, nor have say in many big decisions, and many could argue that they're better off because of it.

[legendz]

I'd say that the reason no compelling arguments can be made for either winter or summer football is because the problems of the LOI aren't really related to the issue.

The one thing important for the league in the long-term will be the creation of a football pyramid with the LoI as the pinnacle. Winter or Summer football will only be important regards being run on the same season as the Intermediate and Junior football in a pyramid system.

[legendz]

Apologies about the summer games being on TV, I was wrong on that front. But our busiest periods for TV coverage are the start and end of our season, when we go up against two irrelevant times in the English game, March (when the christmas period has died down and before a title race has got going) and October (when there's no 'crunch' games and the big sides are playing out tedious Champions League group games). Put the LoI climax up against a Man Utd/Man City title race and we'll see how much coverage we get. And yes, to me it is pretty clear that we get more coverage in the summer months when football writers are stuck with filling (admittedly less) football column inches without anything happening in the UK (even the transfer market doesn't offer compelling stories like it once did)

If the league ran from July to March/April, it would be finishing ahead of any title race going on across the water.

[Jicked]

The one thing important for the league in the long-term will be the creation of a football pyramid with the LoI as the pinnacle. Winter or Summer football will only be important regards being run on the same season as the Intermediate and Junior football in a pyramid system.

Personally I'd consider LoI sides developing their own youth/A Teams more important than a synchronised pyramid structure. I'd think a closed league with an invitational system would serve all clubs better, rather than seeing a side promoted and thrown in to senior football when they're not in a position to help themselves or the League as a whole.

[pineapple stu]

In my opinion, maybe one vote should be more important than another, if it results in greater progression for the League as a whole.
I've already argued that the big clubs have been the ones trying to ruin the league recently with ridiculous, self-serving suggestions, often couched as being for the "greater progression of the league as a whole". If giving Salthill and Mervue a full and equal vote acts as a check and balance against that, then I'm all in favour of letting them have an equal vote. (And that's before you get into the idea that as full members, of course their vote should be equal. Otherwise, you'd end up with clubs spending more money they don't have to finish higher up the league to earn a bigger vote to skew things in their favour more).

[Jicked]

If the league ran from July to March/April, it would be finishing ahead of any title race going on across the water.

Including a winter break? What about the idea that players need to p*ss off to Ibiza for a few weeks? Do that right in the middle of pre-season training? There's no easy answer unfortunately.

[Jicked]

I've already argued that the big clubs have been the ones trying to ruin the league recently with ridiculous, self-serving suggestions. If giving Salthill and Mervue a full and equal vote acts as a check and balance against that, then I'm all in favour of letting them have an equal vote. (And that's before you get into the idea that as full members, of course their vote should be equal. Otherwise, you'd end up with clubs spending more money they don't have to finish higher up the league to earn a bigger vote to skew things in their favour more).

I agree, the "big clubs" ridiculous overspending over the last decade or so have knocked the League back a lot. But I'd rather see those checks and balances run by the FAI with a view on how the League can best operate, rather than by Salthill and Mervue who'd understandably have a view on how to get more than 70 people out to watch a football game in Galway.

It seems a little harsh that I'm picking on the two Galway sides here, it's by way of an example only and I don't mean to be attacking them.

[Dodge]

instead of letting say Blackpool, Wigan and West Brom dictate the direction of the Premier League. It's not that they're not considered, nor have say in many big decisions, and many could argue that they're better off because of it.

English Premier league works on one clusb, one vote...

And I wans't being petty by suggesting Rovers were at the same level as Salthill, its a fact. You were both playing in the first division (if I was petty I'd have mentioned that they own their own ground).

[Dodge]

It seems a little harsh that I'm picking on the two Galway sides here, it's by way of an example only and I don't mean to be attacking them.

SO if the likes of Bohs, Pas, Cork, Derry, Sligo, Dundalk all voted for winter football but were outvoted by Mervue, salthill et all you'd be upset about it?

[passerrby]

developing our league to a standard that brings bigger attendances is the greater interest not sseeing a few teams getting knocked out of europe

[legendz]

Personally I'd consider LoI sides developing their own youth/A Teams more important than a synchronised pyramid structure. I'd think a closed league with an invitational system would serve all clubs better, rather than seeing a side promoted and thrown in to senior football when they're not in a position to help themselves or the League as a whole.

The development of Youth sides is important. The A Championship as it is is a good interim league but long-term I'd still see getting a pyramid structure being important as well. In a pyramid system, sides won't be just thrown into senior football and will have to meet certain criteria first.

[Jicked]

English Premier league works on one clusb, one vote...


With the big clubs clearly shaping the direction of the League. Even then, there's rules such as the parachute payments to protect the interests of bigger teams interests (not that it means it results in a closed shop league)



SO if the likes of Bohs, Pas, Cork, Derry, Sligo, Dundalk all voted for winter football but were outvoted by Mervue, salthill et all you'd be upset about it?


No, because in my opinion the right decision would have been reached. But the point remains that I don't think clubs that small should be able to dictate such things, the FAI should be making such decisions after consulting with all parties.

[osarusan]

But the point remains that I don't think clubs that small should be able to dictate such things, the FAI should be making such decisions after consulting with all parties.
Just as you can argue that small clubs shouldn't be allowed dictate things, neither should big clubs be allowed dictate things. And the point remains that the small clubs aren't dictating anything. There was a vote, and 21 of the 22 clubs voted. If the small clubs were so obviously out for their own interests at the expense of the greater good of the league, their proposal wouldn't have passed. But it passed because a majority of clubs saw merit in it.

The checks and balances are still there in that the FAI have to approve this before it actually happens.

[bennocelt]

Seriously? :rolleyes:

And your point is..............:rolleyes:

[harps1954]

There was a vote, and 21 of the 22 clubs voted. If the small clubs were so obviously out for their own interests at the expense of the greater good of the league, their proposal wouldn't have passed. But it passed because a majority of clubs saw merit in it.

And it was one of the big clubs that couldn't be bothered to vote (or indeed attend the meeting). The meeting on Monday in Athlone was not the first meeting of the clubs, it was the latest of a series of meetings where this matter has been discussed. Clubs even completed questionnaires to guage their opinions on a wide range of things that could improve the league, but again this ONE club didn't bother about it. Bet you if the FAI agree to the proposals submitted by the clubs, it will be this ONE club that cries the loudest afterwards.

[Schumi]

And your point is..............:rolleyes:You only want people who put LOI games ahead of everything else in their lives to go to games? You don't think there'd be any benefit to clubs in casual (in the non-violent sense) fans going to some games as opposed to never going to games?

[Dodge]

I'd hazard a guess that the one club was Pats. About 4/5 people involved in the club on a day to day basis and they had a semi final to arrange for the following day.

I should point out I've no idea if Pats were the club to miss out, but they're the only ones I think that could have an excuse for not turning up.

[gufc2000]

It could have been Mervue that didn't turn up. They're supposed to be seriously considering their position within the League of Ireland, and may resign their league status over the winter months

[legendz]

If Mervue do drop out, will they join the A Championship or what?
If a pyramid structure is unrealistic, at the very least the Intermediate and Junior leagues should have a pyramid structure.

[Macy]

It could have been Mervue that didn't turn up.
I'm open to correction, but I'm not sure they exactly qualify as a "big club"...

[harps1954]

I'd hazard a guess that the one club was Pats. About 4/5 people involved in the club on a day to day basis and they had a semi final to arrange for the following day.

I should point out I've no idea if Pats were the club to miss out, but they're the only ones I think that could have an excuse for not turning up.

There was more than one club that didn't turn up on Monday - however, by completing the questionnare, which I think clubs had for quite some time ahead of Monday night, this was counted as their vote on the night. Now, I don't know what was in the questionaire now either and I dont' know if it was just a case of asking the question 'Are you in favour of a 16 Team League?' or 'Are you in favour of a move back to Winter Football?' What I'm saying is that ONE club not only didn't bother turning up on Monday, they didn't even think it was worthwhile to vote. I don't know what clubs did/didn't make the meeting on Monday, but for the record Pats did use their vote.

The decisions of the clubs were then to be presented to the FAI at yesterday's League of Ireland Executive Meeting. Has anyone heard anything about how this meeting went?

[Hibs4Ever]

Why don't you just say which club it is?

[Dodge]

I don't know what clubs did/didn't make the meeting on Monday, but for the record Pats did use their vote

Glad to hear it.

[wonder88]

A 16 team top tier has a lot going for it, going back to winter football I am not sure, however it is clear that crowds have not increased since the switch so it might be worth a try

[monsexile]

It could have been Mervue that didn't turn up. They're supposed to be seriously considering their position within the League of Ireland, and may resign their league status over the winter months
Hope they don't show up tomorrow night

:crossed:

[harps1954]

Why don't you just say which club it is?

No, I won't be saying who it is. I was just making the point in relation to what Jicked was saying in that the smaller clubs shouldn't really have the same say as the bigger clubs. My point was that one of the bigger clubs didn't even use their vote. No point in complaining afterwards if the FAI run with the proposals submitted by the clubs.

[legendz]

A 16 team top tier has a lot going for it, going back to winter football I am not sure, however it is clear that crowds have not increased since the switch so it might be worth a try

It'll be better than what the SPL are proposing.
They are going to have a 14 team Premier. After 26 games it'll split 6 and 8. Only top 6 then can go for the title Europa League places. Lower section advantage as they see it is that they'll have more games but surely those games will be meaningless.

[culloty82]

On the point of the new First Division, it makes more sense to promote all five clubs, allowing a 30 game season rather than two or four (what would happen Tullamore, Carlow etc. otherwise?). The 16-team Premier seems a progressive move, but I'd agree winter football would be a step backward.

[bennocelt]

You only want people who put LOI games ahead of everything else in their lives to go to games? You don't think there'd be any benefit to clubs in casual (in the non-violent sense) fans going to some games as opposed to never going to games?

Yes but football as a "brand" should be enough in itself.
As I said before we are not a football nation and whatever switch they do it wont make any differences to attendances.
I think that the same people who make excuses in the summer are the very same ones that wont visit Bray on a winters night cause its "too cold", etc etc
The casual supporter? Sure the FAI dont even care about the real fans, look at all the stupid midweek games.

[Dodge]

It'll be better than what the SPL are proposing.
They are going to have a 14 team Premier. After 26 games it'll split 6 and 8. Only top 6 then can go for the title Europa League places. Lower section advantage as they see it is that they'll have more games but surely those games will be meaningless.

We had a top 6/bottom 6 here before too.

Disaster of an idea

[legendz]

We had a top 6/bottom 6 here before too.

Disaster of an idea

I remember those days, SPL has it these days and Wales have brought it in this season. Most leagues do go for at least 30 games, 16 team Premier will give that at least.

[Rasputin]

No, I won't be saying who it is. I was just making the point in relation to what Jicked was saying in that the smaller clubs shouldn't really have the same say as the bigger clubs. My point was that one of the bigger clubs didn't even use their vote. No point in complaining afterwards if the FAI run with the proposals submitted by the clubs.
Whats the harm in telling us who it is?

[peadar1987]

I'm not sure a massive pyramid is the best structure to have. It'd divide the support if clubs were in the same pyramid. England can afford to do it because they have ten times the population, but I don't think we can.

I reckon Ireland can have perhaps up to 30 or 40 senior clubs, absolute tops. Each one should be the pinnacle of senior football in the area, with the other junior clubs being linked together under the umbrella of the senior club, so local cup finals played at the senior club's ground, junior clubs benefitting from the senior club's coaching facilities and staff, players being able to hold dual registration between the senior club and junior clubs, the senior club players helping with fundraising and promotion for the junior clubs, like being the special guests at raffles, and so on. I reckon in the long term this would serve Irish football better than having a more bloated pyramid with over a hundred clubs.


Edit: That's senior and junior in the Scottish sense, so not related to age, just league membership!

[legendz]

I was sceptical of a pyramid as well due to size etc. When you break it down though, firstly there's no reason why there can't be a pyramid structure between the 30+ district leagues and the intermediate leagues. Once that's in place there's no reason why it wouldn't be possible to link the highest level of the intermediate league to the national league.
I think the best Ireland can do is have a Premier and First Division of 16 clubs each.
Below this then have an intermediate league North and South with 14 clubs in each.

[Dodge]

When you break it down though, firstly there's no reason why there can't be a pyramid structure between the 30+ district leagues and the intermediate leagues. Once that's in place there's no reason why it wouldn't be possible to link the highest level of the intermediate league to the national league

I'm guessing you haven't been involved in the administration of a junior or intermediate club. Every league "officer" I've ever encountered treats his league as the greatest league in the world. Many involved in the LSL for example, are openly dismissive of the LOI (and indeed everything that isn't LSL). They'd rather be medium fish in their mediocre pool than acknowledge the LOI as the pinnacle of the sport here