16 Team Premier Division / Winter Season from 2012/13 TODAY'S DAILY MAIL

[Mr A]

Because at that point the club had seen the press release and wanted clarification. And it's not like Monaghan would not have informed them anyway.

[redron]

So if Harps didnt think they had played a suspended player, how come they contacted the FAI the following monday morning and said they had played a suspended player?

Another admin error?

This has already been thrashed out in another thread. Read from here on: http://foot.ie/threads/156161-First-Division-Run-In?p=1530605&viewfull=1#post1530605

You'd want to be careful not to gloat too much over all of this.
You're in the play-offs. You're lucky to be there. Why can't you just be grateful and get on with it?

As you can see from the discussion in the First Division Run In thread, the issue is not as clear cut as it might seem if you don't know what actually happened. But the board of Limerick FC have seemingly decided not to go any further with it, after the arbitrator decided that under FAI rules he could not consider their submissions.

[Magicme]

In what way am I gloating? I asked a question Ron. That is all.

I am grateful we are there and dont like how we got there either, but it was not our fault and we didnt know that Harps had fielded a player until they raised the issue with the FAI themselves and we were notified then.

Wind your neck in.

[nigel-harps1954]

Okay, lets settle this, Donegal folk are stupid redneck sheepshagging hillbillies. We knew all along, we knew at the end of the season Monaghan would lose out by a point. We didn't want Limerick up. We had to do something about it. So, stupidly we took a €2,500 fine on purpose just so Monaghan would get promoted because we all love Roddy Collins up here. Nobody really likes Pat Scully after all.

[WoodquayBoy]

Okay, lets settle this, Donegal folk are stupid redneck sheepshagging hillbillies. We knew all along, we knew at the end of the season Monaghan would lose out by a point. We didn't want Limerick up. We had to do something about it. So, stupidly we took a €2,500 fine on purpose just so Monaghan would get promoted because we all love Roddy Collins up here. Nobody really likes Pat Scully after all.
A wonderfully humourous post of untruths until the last line

[Lim till i die]

So, stupidly we took a €2,500 fine on purpose.

I haven't really got involved in this nonsense because there's tops two people in this thread who know the actual circumstance so it's just a load of internet cow people bellowing at one another (which I normally find brilliant, but this effects Limerick, so meh)

BUT:

Just to clarify, I will be astonished if Harps ever, ever, have to pay this fine.

[redron]

In what way am I gloating? I asked a question Ron. That is all.

...

Wind your neck in.

I gave the link to the discussion in the other thread, because the question you asked was discussed there. You took part in that discussion. Even when you weren't posting comments yourself, you were "thanking" other posters.

Apologies if I jumped to the wrong conclusion on your motivations.

[Sam_Heggy]

Just to clarify, I will be astonished if Harps ever, ever pay this fine.

Fixed that for you.

[MagicMon]

Sure for the first few hours of this all the Limerick fans were on here adamant that it was keith quinn and monaghan would be docked points.

[Lim till i die]

Fixed that for you.

One of them, two of them.

The league, she operates in mysterious ways


Sure for the first few hours of this all the Limerick fans were on here adamant that it was keith quinn and monaghan would be docked points.

If memory serves, I think maybe two Limerick fans, thought it was maybe Eric Foley, was maybe the problem, until I checked and told them he wasn't.

Not that any of that is relevant to anything.

http://www.pirates-porch.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm.gif

[MagicMon]

Facepalm yourself, I was agreeing that hardly anyone on here knows what is actually going on given how many versions of the story have been bandied about. I'm not sad enough to go back through threads to count how many individuals proposed what player, but I do remember having a panic attack about Keith Quinn until I realized that the Sligo replay was a few days before.

[Mr A]

So.

Has anybody heard about what the structure of the league is likely to be next year?

[geezer]

So.

Has anybody heard about what the structure of the league is likely to be next year?


What are you hoping for , try back around the middle of march

[bluewhitearmy]

Facepalm yourself, I was agreeing that hardly anyone on here knows what is actually going on given how many versions of the story have been bandied about. I'm not sad enough to go back through threads to count how many individuals proposed what player, but I do remember having a panic attack about Keith Quinn until I realized that the Sligo replay was a few days before.

So instead you make up that it was all Limerick fans...When in fact it was just me and it was because it said on Extratime that Eric Foley was suspended.

If i recall correctly didnt you just do the same thing the other day saying Limerick fans wanted a team to go bust when in fact it was just one person that said it and no-one had agreed with him.

[Sam_Heggy]

So instead you make up that it was all Limerick fans...When in fact it was just me and it was because it said on Extratime that Eric Foley was suspended.

If i recall correctly didnt you just do the same thing the other day saying Limerick fans wanted a team to go bust when in fact it was just one person that said it and no-one had agreed with him.

Where did you hear about it being 1 division of 18 teams next season?

[BonnieShels]

Sure for the first few hours of this all the Limerick fans were on here adamant that it was keith quinn and monaghan would be docked points.

Make up your mind, are you sure it was this guy?

http://s11.lucyphotos.com/images/orig/t/v/tvxgpsi84ja7gxs7.jpg

I find it hard to believe Roddy would make room for him considering he's not known for being a holding midfielder and he'll easily upstage Roderick as being the "dapperest dandy man" in Gortakeegan.

[born2bwild]

Make up your mind, are you sure it was this guy?

http://s11.lucyphotos.com/images/orig/t/v/tvxgpsi84ja7gxs7.jpg

I find it hard to believe Roddy would make room for him considering he's not known for being a holding midfielder and he'll easily upstage Roderick as being the "dapperest dandy man" in Gortakeegan.
Neither is Keith Quinn. Known for being a holding midfielder - a rival for Roddy in the 'dapperest dandy man in Monaghan', I don't know.

[MagicMon]

Maybe not a holding midfielder, but his set piece stand-and-delivery is excellent.


(I'll get me coat.)

[citybone]

I dont have any facts but the Premier division will prob be a 12 team split like the SPL and the first division its hard to say as we dont know who will be in the division but at a guess it will include the current 7 clubs and maybe 4 of the a championship teams making 11 clubs but likely that 1 or more of these clubs will not be in the 1st division next season. so at a guess 10 team first division.
On the CCFC forum we were suggesting a regionalised 1st division to cut down on travelling costs for clubs but would prob need more than 10 teams for this so unless some of the prem division clubs put in reserve sides to bump the number of sides in the 1st division to 16 or 18 and then split it to regionalised 1st division.

[legendz]

Sadlier didn't like any suggestions last night of just having one division with possibly only 14 or 16 clubs. His reference to Galway being poor and a reason not to expand the Premier as a result was unfair on the likes of Cork and Shels. Both of these clubs will add a lot to the Premier and will do well.
Any reaction to Tony O'Donoghue's comments on the Mons? He has a point to some degree but it's great to see the Mon's earn their place.

[nigel-harps1954]

Throw everyone in one big division. Screw it. 20 Teams. No need for relegation or promotion.

[citybone]

easy for you to say now but if Harps were being hammered 4-0,5-0,6-0,7-0,8-0 by the top teams there would not be too many locals happy to come to Finn Park then.

[Dodge]

Sadlier didn't like any suggestions last night of just having one division with possibly only 14 or 16 clubs. His reference to Galway being poor and a reason not to expand the Premier as a result was unfair on the likes of Cork and Shels
And both have earned their place in the top 12, so its not really relevent

Anythign without promotion/relegation would be a disaster IMO

[legendz]

easy for you to say now but if Harps were being hammered 4-0,5-0,6-0,7-0,8-0 by the top teams there would not be too many locals happy to come to Finn Park then.

Fair comment in some respects. What good is licensing for Premier clubs etc. if stadia are not up to a decent standard? Clearly nothing is going to happen overnight and the money isn't there for grounds to be worked on but surely there has to be some move towards having a top 10 or 12 with finances and stadia up to what would be considered a decent standard, for those more in the know to determine.

Tallaght Stadium, Showgrounds, Brandywell, Richmond Park, Dalymount Park, Carlisle Grounds, Oriel Park, UCD Bowl, Hunky Dorys Park, Turners Cross, Tolka Park and Gortakeegan. How many of these stadia would be classed my most supporters of being below a decent standard?

[nigel-harps1954]

easy for you to say now but if Harps were being hammered 4-0,5-0,6-0,7-0,8-0 by the top teams there would not be too many locals happy to come to Finn Park then.

Meh, we not happy being beat by Mervue, Athlone, Longford and the likes at the minute so I see no difference.

[Macy]

Anythign without promotion/relegation would be a disaster IMO
I agree, unless it's strictly short term to get over a hump.

However, I think Sadlier was unreasonably dismissive of teams that might come up in an expanded league, based on Galway. I don't believe Limerick, Waterford or even us would be as poor as Galway were. No one brought up that teams in the premier would have bigger crowds, more sponsorship potential which would feed into the team budget. And the negative aspect of too many games against the same clubs and the impact in the premier wasn't addressed either. Basically it was a typical lightweight MNS discussion where generalisations can rule.

[nigel-harps1954]

We need to work on some sort of pyramid structure clearly.

[Dodge]

However, I think Sadlier was unreasonably dismissive of teams that might come up in an expanded league, based on Galway.
Should say, I didn't see the show, so I wasn't commenting on that. Did he use Galway as an example of a promoted side? They've spent the last 5 years in the premier...


Basically it was a typical lightweight MNS discussion where generalisations can rule.
Thats what happens when ex-pros get to talk abotu serious issues. They simply don't understand it from any angle other than their own

[legendz]

We need to work on some sort of pyramid structure clearly.

Ha ha, wouldn't be too sure on that! If word from last year is to be believed, a suggestion to regionalise divison one didn't get much backing. 4 A championship clubs then are vying to get involved in division one despite what many seeing it as crazy considering the expense involved. Con's original question to Sadlier which prompted the Galway rant was is expanding the Premier to 12 a good move? I would say it is. Clubs playing each other 4 times in the league as many have suggested is a bit much. having a third series isn't ideal in terms of some having the extra home game but it's generally evened out by reversing the fixtures as generally has been done.

[Macy]

Should say, I didn't see the show, so I wasn't commenting on that. Did he use Galway as an example of a promoted side? They've spent the last 5 years in the premier...
His angle was that 14 or 16 would lead to several Galway standard teams getting hammered week in week out, and there'd be too big a difference between the top and the bottom.


Thats what happens when ex-pros get to talk abotu serious issues. They simply don't understand it from any angle other than their own
They just didn't really give it enough time. Asked opinions, but didn't debated it*. The bottom line is that a smaller league, with the intention of condensing the quality has been tried and has failed, and did nothing for the sustainability of the league/ clubs.

*must admit I didn't watch it all, as they announced they were going to be talking international football, so I switched off. They may have come back to it.

[Dodge]

Right, I wouldn't use Galway as an example of anything other than 'how not to build a team in 6 days while employing Sean Connor and wrestling boardroomingly with a convicted rogue trader'

And the chances of that happening again are only about 20%

[MagicMon]

Should say, I didn't see the show, so I wasn't commenting on that. Did he use Galway as an example of a promoted side? They've spent the last 5 years in the premier...


Thats what happens when ex-pros get to talk abotu serious issues. They simply don't understand it from any angle other than their own

Tony O'Donoghue can do one, but the Sadlier stuff was quite insulting. Of course having players driving to games and all that isn't ideal, but its damn sight better than a club sp*nking its money away thinking they're in the Premiership and then not paying players what they're owed.

[Lim till i die]

Of course having players driving to games and all that isn't ideal

There's still clubs whos players have to drive to games?! :eek:

The thing about no promotion and relegation would be that every year you'd have two or three teams who are hard up doing a Galway.

They'd sit tight, spend nothing, take the couple of big gates against Rovers and go nowhere.

A one tier league could work if it's administrators and owners weren't in the large part gombeens.

Therefore it's probably not a good idea in any of our lifetimes.

[legendz]

There's still clubs whos players have to drive to games?! :eek:

The thing about no promotion and relegation would be that every year you'd have two or three teams who are hard up doing a Galway.

They'd sit tight, spend nothing, take the couple of big gates against Rovers and go nowhere.

A one tier league could work if it's administrators and owners weren't in the large part gombeens.

Therefore it's probably not a good idea in any of our lifetimes.

That's nearly a reason for a third tier or retaining the A Championship in some form if possible. What's to stop clubs laying dormant at the foot of the first divsion for a few years and not maintaining a standard? I don't want to get into that much though. What will be will be regards the league set-up.

[Sam_Heggy]

In fairness, lumping us into the Prem division would actually save the club.
Home gates against Derry, Rovers and Sligo would severely boost the coffers.
We're getting an average att of 433 as the 3rd bottom side in the 1st Div, at least if we were playing some of the big sides in the country there would be something to come out and see.
I wouldn't change our budget either.

Richard Saddlier is a gobsheen in honesty, giving out about Monaghan saving money was a bit feckin petit. On one hand he gives out about clubs house-keeping and on the other he questions them saving money. ****.

[culloty82]

That's nearly a reason for a third tier or retaining the A Championship in some form if possible. What's to stop clubs laying dormant at the foot of the first divsion for a few years and not maintaining a standard? I don't want to get into that much though. What will be will be regards the league set-up.

Surely though every club sets a target of climbing the league ladder from last season's position, also the new clubs would aim to finish a little higher than where they would be expected to. In other words, if Tralee get in, and know that 11th-12th place is probable in the first season, they'd aim to come 8th-10th. Finally, if any new clubs wish to join later, the First can always be expanded up to 16 teams.

[legendz]

Surely though every club sets a target of climbing the league ladder from last season's position, also the new clubs would aim to finish a little higher than where they would be expected to. In other words, if Tralee get in, and know that 11th-12th place is probable in the first season, they'd aim to come 8th-10th. Finally, if any new clubs wish to join later, the First can always be expanded up to 16 teams.

I like the optimism that Tralee will be in a First Divison of 12! If they were, I'd see it as fair game that if they were finishing 12th that they'd have to at least take on the best club from the next lowest level in a play-off. It'd be hypocritical to be looking for a close league if we get in ourselves. Salthill finished the '10 season with a poor 15 points but they won their play-off against Cobh. It was a decent system with their league status retained on the field of play.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

I like the optimism that Tralee will be in a First Divison of 12! If they were, I'd see it as fair game that if they were finishing 12th that they'd have to at least take on the best club from the next lowest level in a play-off. It'd be hypocritical to be looking for a close league if we get in ourselves. Salthill finished the '10 season with a poor 15 points but they won their play-off against Cobh. It was a decent system with their league status retained on the field of play.

Well it wouldn't have mattered if Salthill lost the game seeing as they got a First Division licence and Cobh didn't.

[lawman]

Every season we complain about the league and the viability of same but in reality in order for us to have a national team we have to have a national league, (EUFA rule I believe), so the prospect of the national league collapsing is never going to materialise. However, if YOU were a business person who was the owner of one of these clubs you would possibly close the doors seeing it as unsustainable. Very few if any make a profit at the end of each year.Football to us is a sport, a great sport, but in reality at national league level it is a business, bills to be paid etc.. So why are clubs not run as businesses by proper business people? Is it possible that football people do not have business brains or that business people do not see football as a business? Premiership clubs market their brand in a business manner so always have bums on seats. How come we have games with less than 50 people at them? Who didn't do their job of getting people through the turnstiles? Or is there someboby employed to do that job? I could do that if somebody wants to employ me... for payment of course....

[geezer]

Every season we complain about the league and the viability of same but in reality in order for us to have a national team we have to have a national league, (EUFA rule I believe), so the prospect of the national league collapsing is never going to materialise. However, if YOU were a business person who was the owner of one of these clubs you would possibly close the doors seeing it as unsustainable. Very few if any make a profit at the end of each year.Football to us is a sport, a great sport, but in reality at national league level it is a business, bills to be paid etc.. So why are clubs not run as businesses by proper business people? Is it possible that football people do not have business brains or that business people do not see football as a business? Premiership clubs market their brand in a business manner so always have bums on seats. How come we have games with less than 50 people at them? Who didn't do their job of getting people through the turnstiles? Or is there someboby employed to do that job? I could do that if somebody wants to employ me... for payment of course....

Business people have left clubs millions in debt and left Rovers & cork on their knees, thankfully the supporters direct philosophy is gaining ground, clubs in Ireland are about community and should go that route and thankfully it has started in the last few years with the result below for 2011 showing

Rovers won the league
Sligo won the cup
Cork won the 1st division

all supporter run clubs.. this is the future for the LOI forget about people who have no interest or understanding of our league

[lawman]

Business people have left clubs millions in debt and left Rovers & cork on their knees, thankfully the supporters direct philosophy is gaining ground, clubs in Ireland are about community and should go that route and thankfully it has started in the last few years with the result below for 2011 showing

Rovers won the league
Sligo won the cup
Cork won the 1st division

all supporter run clubs.. this is the future for the LOI forget about people who have no interest or understanding of our league




Point taken, and I'm guessing that the 3 clubs named above would have been among the best supported in the leagues this past season, so how come they can attract the crowds and others can't? Is it just total loyalty or do these clubs put more effort into attracting the punter?

[Dodge]

To counter that the club with msot debt in this country is also the fan owned and run club Bohs

The models aren't the problems, the people involved are

[Lim till i die]

To counter that the club with msot debt in this country is also the fan owned and run club Bohs

The models aren't the problems, the people involved are

This x 1000000

Fan owned clubs will always, always, eventually fall into financial difficulty without benevolent business backers aswell. Do the math.

[El-Pietro]

This x 1000000

Fan owned clubs will always, always, eventually fall into financial difficulty without benevolent business backers aswell. Do the math.
no they wont

they will only fall into financial difficulty if they spend more than they have.

Do the math.

[sadloserkid]

Not wholly related to a lot of the recent debate in this thread but would it be correct to say that Pats and (for now) Bohs are the only clubs in the league without a recent enough relegation in their history? Leaving aside those clubs with no recent stint in the top tier like Wexford, the new newer Galway clubs and ourselves, the first division's permanent resident? A strange enough stat I would say.

Quite a lot of the 'big' clubs relegations were either directly down to financial mismanagement (a la Derry or Shels) or clubs running themselves into the ground and basically having to pull the plug before they exploded too (Galway this season?). There's been precious few examples of well-run clubs competing at the top end of things for any spell of time in the 11 or 12 seasons that I've followed the league. I would also be of the school of thought that it's the people making the decisions rather than the systems by which the clubs are governed that has contributed to this state of affairs... obviously the mass public indifference hasn't helped either! :)

[Dodge]

To counter that the club with most debt in this country is also the fan owned and run club Bohs

Just on this, Bohs have releaed a pretty long statement that says 4 things
1) We've made cutbacks
2) We owe Zurich €4mill
3) We need to sell Dalymount to pay them back
4) We can't sell dalymount yet

[Nesta99]

Valid point Dodge! Im not sure Bohs is the best example as anybody expecting a 65mil payday could lose the run of themselves. If they hadnt messed up the land deal/deals well who knows. LTID you cannot be so absolute in your analysis. It depends of course on what level a club is attempting to compete at. Financial difficulty is not a certainty at fan owned clubs, there are many examples in the UK for eg. In Ireland living within your means is an alien concept beyond football but the philosophy is changing. Benefactor monies is very welcome of course assuming that 'benefactor' is not in a position to .. cough.. pay themselves back

[Lim till i die]

no they wont

they will only fall into financial difficulty if they spend more than they have.

Do the math.

The temptation is always there to gamble for success rather than just tread water.

It happens every club eventually.

[El-Pietro]

The temptation is always there to gamble for success rather than just tread water.

It happens every club eventually.
that has nothing to do with the ownership structure though

[Dodge]

that has nothing to do with the ownership structure though
Which was my point in the first place...