16 Team Premier Division / Winter Season from 2012/13 TODAY'S DAILY MAIL

[Straightstory]

A better standard of football, better facilities, better European results (which help the League in general, bringing in revenue, new fans and public interest/advertising, though you may think it just helps individual games). The league as a whole would suffer if we go back to getting hammered by teams from Latvia. Then there's increased media coverage; there's bugger all coverage of last night's semi-final on the news sites, whereas in the Summer LoI coverage was much bigger when column inches had to be filled. Instead we get a half dozen match reports from around Europe, Rooney-gate and the game not even on TV due to it clashing with a Champions League game. Again, this knocks the profile of the league, knocking advertisement in general.

Why exactly would you change back to winter football, apart from romantic ideas of games being better under the rain and lights? If Harps crowds are suffering, do you really think they'd be any better in November and January with the team struggling in the First Division? It's like the farcical argument from Sligo fans years ago that it was the harvest or some such thing that was keeping local farmers from going to games and so affecting their gates.

I agree.

[SwanVsDalton]

Quinn's report echoes what I heard.

Some of the reasons for winter football were hilarious.

Grand, sure just disenfranchise the supporters who bother themselves going to games, again. Well done clubs.

Any chance of a bit more on that Kev?

[Acornvilla]

i'd just like to point out that we have lost to latvians during the summer seasons

[legendz]

The one issue that doesn't seem to be coming up is the potential for more meaningless games. While the number of clubs in the hunt for Europe won't change the proportion will, as too will those looking to avoid relegation. This leads to more clubs in the middle which down the back-end of the season could lead to an attendance drop-off. One way to combat this is through the Setanta Cup, by allocating places down to a certain point in the table, essentially giving clubs in 8th to 12th (possibly 7th to 13th) something to care about for the last month or two of the season.

Like someone has said, it can be a good thing as well for clubs to get into a position where they are not looking over their shoulders. It offers a chance/platform for stability before they can plan and look how they move forward. Any club in that position who wouldn't move forward would be likely to fall backwards and then face relegation.
A 4 team play-off could be introduced as well for the final Europa League spot. With Cup winners likely to be among leading clubs, this would mean finishing in the top 7 being something to aim for and something within reach of about 8 or 9 clubs up until the end of the season.

[osarusan]

A 4 team play-off could be introduced as well for the final Europa League spot. With Cup winners likely to be among leading clubs, this would mean finishing in the top 7 being something to aim for and something within reach of about 8 or 9 clubs up until the end of the season.
Personally I would hate to see this happen. It defeats the purpose of having a league.

[HulaHoop]

Clubs vote for return to winter season coming off the back of the coldest winter in living memory where the entire month of January would have been a write off if we had been playing a winter season this year. You couldn't make it up.

[Schumi]

With Setanta Cup qualification down to 6th, 2 teams relegated and 2 more in a play-off would leave few enough teams with nothing to play for near the end.

[legendz]

Personally I would hate to see this happen. It defeats the purpose of having a league.

The league will still have a league champion who will go on to the Champions League. As long as the champion gets the reward, I think there is a place for a Europa League play-off and the two cups having a place each. It'd be more competitive as well as the only guaranteed way to Europe would be winning the league or the cups and if not, wind up being in an end of season play-off for the final Europa League place. As long as clubs know the rules beforehand it's fair and a good test for sides involved.
It's like Division One this year, the champion gets the title and promotion, the 2nd and 3rd placed sides are involved in the play-offs. Everyone know the rules beforehand and it is fair.

[Jofspring]

Prefer the Summer myself. The weather is a big reason. While i love watching games under lights i much prefer when the chances are a little better of it not to be ****ing rain. Helps the pitches too. Also in the summer there is less clashes with other sports. GAA would be the only major regular one and at that the championship is broken up a bit over the summer. In the Winter there would be The English Premier League, Champions League (to a lesser extent as its mid-week football), Heineken Cup, Six Nations, Magners League and AIL.

Really like the idea of a bigger premier though. Games would be a bigger draw if you where to only play certain teams at home once a season and have to travel to certain away games once a season. Would seem like a bigger away day playing the likes of Shamrock Rovers away once. Would be great to have a nice spread across the country too.

[L.T.F.C.]

Well they'd be in the second tier. same as now. And if they can't get in the top 16, they can't really complain.

As long as promotion and relegation between the divisions is there I can't see that as a problem. 30 games isn't that big a change from the 33 they were playing 3/4 years ago.
What I meant was they'll be a serious loss in quality, not that there is much to begin with. Imagine Derry playing Tralee Dynamos or something? Hypothetically speaking of course.
We're not talking about 3/4 years ago. We're talking about now. Its a loss of 6 games.

[legendz]

What I meant was they'll be a serious loss in quality, not that there is much to begin with. Imagine Derry playing Tralee Dynamos or something? Hypothetically speaking of course.
We're not talking about 3/4 years ago. We're talking about now. Its a loss of 6 games.

New clubs have to come from somewhere. At most 4 clubs could be invited to Division One but they could invite only 2 bringing the number to 8 and a 28 game season.
The advantage of any alignment of the LoI and Intermediate/Junior league seasons is that they could work towards building some sort of pyramid structure, starting between the district and Intermediate leagues first before they look at a link from intermediate to the LoI somehow.

[Schumi]

Most of the games lost would be midweek so wouldn't be that big a hit. The major issue for me with a 16-team premier division is that the extra teams won't be very good.

[CuanaD]

16 team league - I don't mind - never too keen on the 10 team set-up anyway.

But, please no not Winter football again - I don't miss the freezing cold, & I don't want to go back to all our teams being tossed out of Europe in the first preliminary rounds because they aren't match fit in July :mad:

[legendz]

Most of the games lost would be midweek so wouldn't be that big a hit. The major issue for me with a 16-team premier division is that the extra teams won't be very good.

Very harsh! Division One has been good this season and looking at the Division One table, I think Derry, Monaghan, Waterford, Shel's, Limerick and Cork would all be great additions to the current Premier Division.

Examples of leagues already run on a 16 club basis:
http://www.soccerbot.com/greece/tables/greece2011.htm
http://www.soccerbot.com/portugal/tables/port2011.htm
http://www.soccerbot.com/serbia/tables/serbia2011.htm

[gufc2000]

As previously posted, has summer football been the sole reason for good results in Europe? Perhaps it was full-time football. This year, our performances were down in Europe. Northern Irish clubs did ok in Europe this year. Linfield drew 0-0 with Rosenborg in Windsor Park, and Portadown and Cliftonville did decent. These are largely part-time players, and were out of season at the time.

[GalwayRed]

Dont see the point of going back to winter football. The winters have been getting worse over the last couple of years and I can just see it leading to a lot of matches being postponed.
The league is a mess alright but thats not down to what time of year matches are being played.

[Mario]

A joke that decision was made without any consultation with us, the leagues customers.

This decision seems to be based on superstition and nostalgia rather than reality.

Mario

[legendz]

With a 30 game season they can fit in a winter break there somewhere, especially around the beginning of January. In terms of the league improving, a return to winter football is not something I think is needed but if the majority want it, especially they clubs, they should do it.

[Candystripe]

Had to check the date there.Was thinking it was April 1st for a second!

Return to winter football....................are they mad?

[Mario]

Straw poll, have your say by clicking like to one of these pages on facebook, everyone feel free to spread the word on facebook for whichever option you favour

Stick With summer Football : http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Airtricity-League-should-stick-with-Summer-football/111974025532885

Go back to winter Football : http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Airtricity-League-should-go-back-to-Winter-football/112178285511808

[Martinho II]

personally speaking from experience I much prefer winter football .Theres something romantic about watching a game in the fog,ice ,snow. theres a better vocal atmosphere at them too! I really miss the old xmas loi matches they were always the best craic!!

[bennocelt]

16 team league - I don't mind - never too keen on the 10 team set-up anyway.

But, please no not Winter football again - I don't miss the freezing cold, & I don't want to go back to all our teams being tossed out of Europe in the first preliminary rounds because they aren't match fit in July :mad:

Exactly, jesus imagine Bray on a winters night, or a January gale force wind up through the middle of Shams pitch................urgh feel cold just thinking about it

And our Euro results would be affected. We have jumped something like 10 places in the co efficients table since summer soccer - or am I wrong?

Winter football (;)
http://cache.virtualtourist.com/4676924-Sports_Travel-Ireland.jpg

[geezer]

report got it all wrong and was the cause of a lot of the league going backways. They didnt consult anyone outside Dublin id say. All them home games in Ollie Byrnes (god rest him) dublin and 1 or 2 culchie clubs league to save the travelling and more derbies and bigger gates for dub clubs only. It had to fail. Id much prefer a 16 team premier and give different regions a chance every ten years or so to put a league championship team together. aka limerick and waterford in the seventies, derry in the nineties, Galway in the mid eighties and of course Cork.

Stuck down in the 1st destroys any hope of the provincial clubs getting a fair crack of the whip. The league in the summer is hard to organise with fixtures a disaster because of world cups, euro cups etc. Games shoud be every second friday night and this is important in a recession as we need to get the punters in early at the weekend as they havent a red cent come monday or tuesday evenings

[oriel]

I personaly have enjoyed the switch to summer season, but the simple fact remains, I think Dodge mentioned it, too many people have too many other things on during the summer. Ireland is a very active place during the summer, there are festivals on every weekend, family/work/neighbours bbq`s/summer holidays, you name it. Attendances are down there is no doubt about that, with particular declines in our case for June, July & August. This summer our first euro home game in 19 years was almost dwarfed by the frenzy around the county with Louth making the Leinster Final. We couldnt even sell it out, close, but not quite the 3,000 we hoped for.

I have a season ticket and thought I only missed the odd few games, almost every game I go to, I find I`m searching for the right match token to pass over to get in. Loads of friends and family say the same thing.

I think the 16 team PD is the way forward, home and away twice, make it simple and also challenging, no more cosy games around Dublin, instead a proper away game v Limerick, Finn Harps & Cobh perhaps.

A solution if they were to change to Winter could be to have next season from mid Feb 2011 to end July 2011, then start the winter season from mid Sept 2011 to mid May 2012.

I`m not saying we should defintely change, but we should look at all the options, maybe a 16 team PD during the summer could be one ?

[Dodge]

A joke that decision was made without any consultation with us, the leagues customers.

This decision seems to be based on superstition and nostalgia rather than reality.


It seems to be the decision was made on euros and cents rather than internet posts

[Mario]

It seems to be the decision was made on euros and cents rather than internet posts

There hasnt been any consultation done with fans on this.

What other industry would make a big strategic decision without doing some market research first?

The reaction here seems to suggests more fans than not dont want to go back to winter football. Will be interesting to see the poll findings.

[Hibs4Ever]

Will be interesting to see the poll findings.


From what I've read on this on various forums today it seems the huge majority of fans favour a return to winter football. Seems to be just Shamrock Rovers fans against it mostly

[Sam_Heggy]

I'm all for the return to Winter football.

Having 30 league games versus 33 is not really that much of a concern to me.

16 team prem is fantastic, but, if we're not in it it'll be crap and should have been made an 18 team league. This crack of playing each other 3 or 4 times minimum per season is just terrible.

Summer football = Good
Winter football = very good

7 months of no football? At present that's bloody fantastic. We can do our annual, "this season we are going to be class" talking for a full 7 months without being found out.

[peadar1987]

From what I've read on this on various forums today it seems the huge majority of fans favour a return to winter football. Seems to be just Shamrock Rovers fans against it mostly

I'm against it. Have you ever seen our stadium?!!

[legendz]

report got it all wrong and was the cause of a lot of the league going backways. They didnt consult anyone outside Dublin id say. All them home games in Ollie Byrnes (god rest him) dublin and 1 or 2 culchie clubs league to save the travelling and more derbies and bigger gates for dub clubs only. It had to fail. Id much prefer a 16 team premier and give different regions a chance every ten years or so to put a league championship team together. aka limerick and waterford in the seventies, derry in the nineties, Galway in the mid eighties and of course Cork.

Stuck down in the 1st destroys any hope of the provincial clubs getting a fair crack of the whip. The league in the summer is hard to organise with fixtures a disaster because of world cups, euro cups etc. Games shoud be every second friday night and this is important in a recession as we need to get the punters in early at the weekend as they havent a red cent come monday or tuesday evenings

You are right to mention the Genesis report. Some points it made were worth exploring, others weren't. Summer football was already in place before the report was published.
The Genesis Report preferred option had the following features:
• A single National League of 10 teams
• Two Regional leagues below the National League with 10 teams in each
Regional League
• There would be promotion and relegation between the top league and the
Regional leagues via an end-of-season play-off system
• Both the National and Regional leagues would be played in the Summer
• There would be a promotion and relegation mechanism between the
Regional leagues and the Amateur leagues
• Minimum criteria would be set for participation in the National League
• The National League will be made up of full-time and part-time professional
clubs
• The Regional leagues will be made up of part-time professionals, amateur
and representative sides
• All amateur/schoolboy leagues and clubs will be associated with/attached
to a National or Regional league club/team.
• Dual registration of players will facilitate the success of U21, U18 and
amateur and representative sides.

For more on that Genesis report:
http://foot.ie/inc/pdf/genesis.pdf

For the FAI's LoI Implementation Committee's Proposals on the strategic direction of the National League 2007 - 2012:
http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/soccer/league-proposals.pdf

[dong]

Why exactly would you change back to winter football, apart from romantic ideas of games being better under the rain and lights? If Harps crowds are suffering, do you really think they'd be any better in November and January with the team struggling in the First Division? It's like the farcical argument from Sligo fans years ago that it was the harvest or some such thing that was keeping local farmers from going to games and so affecting their gates.

Have to agree with you Jicked. I also have those rose tinted glasses for Winter football but it wont bring larger numbers through the turnstiles I don't think.

[Neish]

Don't really think it maters too much when the season is played, I would probably prefer the current (March - Nov) season, but playing (August/Sept - Apr/May) season would probably make it easier to attract the larger U.K. or other European clubs to come for pre-season games. Also think the players would prefer the summer season.

As for the 16 team top flight, sure it can't hurt to give it a go.
Would it definitely be a 30 game season, was just thinking it may be an idea to copy Scottish Premier league format. After every one plays each other home and away the top 8 and bottom 8 split then play each other once more with perhaps a draw or league placing deciding where the extra fixture will be played

And I think they need to invite 4 clubs (preferably from any counties not already represented in the LOI) into the 1st Division to make up numbers, but I guess 2 would suffice

[PartySaint]

No please not a split in the league, I hate that

[osarusan]

No please not a split in the league, I hate thatHowie King, Howie King, Howie King....

[Spudulika]

For myself I have mixed feelings for both seasons (winter reminds me of childhood games and the smell of turf), summer is more appealing in many ways and it's far nicer visiting Longford in the summer than a filthy November afternoon. A 16 team league can only work if there is (I hate this word but it works) connectivity with other leagues, though maybe winter football is a step towards this.

And as bad as we think it is in Ireland, the genius Fursenko (who has about as many ideas, the same proportion of them being good, as Septic Bladder) has stated teh Russian league will revert to a winter season. One of the great ideas is to pump in hot air to stadiums (no, Roddy hasn't got a job) - of course it just so happens that Gazprom have the inside track, which is great as Fursenko was and is a Gazprom man, along with the rest of the St. Petersburg ex-KGB mafia (Putin, Medvedev etc).

[harpstilidie]

I'm all for the return to Winter football.

Having 30 league games versus 33 is not really that much of a concern to me.

16 team prem is fantastic, but, if we're not in it it'll be crap and should have been made an 18 team league. This crack of playing each other 3 or 4 times minimum per season is just terrible.

Summer football = Good
Winter football = very good

7 months of no football? At present that's bloody fantastic. We can do our annual, "this season we are going to be class" talking for a full 7 months without being found out.

Ha! Thats so true! I was so optimistic about this season, that optimism left when we were beaten 3-0 against Limerick in the 4th game of the season and never came back.

I don't really mind whether its summer of winter. I've missed a few games because of it being the summer with being away but still think I prefer it.

As for the 16 team Premier, I'm all for it. We might actually get promoted.

[pineapple stu]

Interesting that in the current issue of When Saturday Comes, there's an article about the SPL considering a possible move to 16 teams, with one of the reasons being that four league games a season against clubs is so tiresome that the edge is even coming off the Old Firm games.

Also, we've one of the most entertaining close-seasons in the world in recent years. Who's going bust, who's been tapped up illegally, what stupid report have the FAI commissioned this time - we'll easily fill seven months.

[legendz]

A few leagues have gone the 16 club route. It does leave a gap for a group stage league cup if the interest is there for it. If they are to revert to a winter league, I think they should look at a mid July start. It near when our clubs have kicked off in Europe. The WC and Euro's will have just concluded. A lot of counties GAA seasons will have come to a finish so it'd be a good time to start the LoI and get the crowds in.

[Real ale Madrid]

We could start the season in January and finish in October. Everyone is happy then. The people who yearn for the days for watching football in cold, wind and rain AND the people who love watching games in summer, even tho, there's very few people there with them because they are all off doing other fun stuff!

The only logical conclusion reading this thread is that nationally organised football in this country should be scrapped as there is no ideal time to play it.

Personally I dont mind either way, however I'm not sure that less matches would equate to less revenue for clubs. One thing I found with watching rugby is that it seems much less of a commitment than football. In professional rugby in this country the provinces only play 14 guarenteed competitive home games a season - spread out out over 9 months. Last season it was 12 games over 9 months. I think its much easier to win over casual fans if you have fewer games, but those games mean a lot more! It means you may sell more season tickets as well. I know both set-ups are completely different but its just a casual observation of both codes.

This idea if true, is very much as one poster already put it - change, for changes sake. If we are going to revamp the league we may as well be a little more radical about it - or else not bother.

My own preference would be for a 14 team league - each team plays each other twice, with play-offs for the Europa League and relegation. Shorten the season a bit and make it a bit easier for the flaoting fan to strike up a relationship with thier local club.

[pineapple stu]

If we are going to revamp the league we may as well be a little more radical about it - or else not bother.
I don't think radical is the right word. "Considered" is what I'd say. If you're going to do something as major as change the timing of the league, do some fecking research into it first to see if it'll do any good.

If this report is true, what do we expect of the change? How will we know if it's failed or not? What's to stop us changing back again in ten years?

[Jofspring]

I don't think radical is the right word. "Considered" is what I'd say. If you're going to do something as major as change the timing of the league, do some fecking research into it first to see if it'll do any good.

If this report is true, what do we expect of the change? How will we know if it's failed or not? What's to stop us changing back again in ten years?

Agree with this. Would be nice to see the clubs do surves at LOI matches next season and maybe a few International games too to get a broader idea of what might attract people to matches. Obviously better grounds and facitilies would be one of the main things a lot would say but it still might give us a better idea rather than guessing what people might like.

[Louth4sam]

I'd be surprised if the 9 clubs that voted for Summer were not made up mostly of teams in the premier league. Everyone having an equal vote is commendable but why the hell would Mevue or Wexford youths care about what happens in the premier league when they realistically don't have a chance of being promoted. They vote for what is best for them and rightly so but we could have a case where the bigger clubs suffer

[Fester]

Report from the the Irish Independent via Pats Website: http://www.stpatsfc.com/media.php?id=4009

Personally I perfer the Winter football, but do not agree that the League should start in August think it should start a month/month & half earlier to help clubs prepare for Europe. As for the 16 club league its better than playing each other far too many time like pats v Sligo which I think is hitting 7/8 meeting for this season alone.

On a side note has any of the clubs which voted for this done any research into a return to winter football. e.g consult/poll you and me the paying customer/punter.

[pineapple stu]

I'd be surprised if the 9 clubs that voted for Summer were not made up mostly of teams in the premier league. Everyone having an equal vote is commendable but why the hell would Mevue or Wexford youths care about what happens in the premier league when they realistically don't have a chance of being promoted.
Ummm - you know the First Division would have to change season too?

[Louth4sam]

Ummm - you know the First Division would have to change season too?

Yeah of course. I meant in relation to European games and standard of pitches. Surely you have seen some of the Bogs in the first division which are a great leveller for weaker teams. Imagine what they'll be like in a winter season.

[Dodge]

Again, what would first division pitches have to do with Europe?

And don't forget the vote to change seasons, and go a 10 team premier, was already voted in by a majority of clubs.

I think you're way off if you think all the top teams are for a summer season too.

BTW generally speaking, I don't think it'd be right to change season/division set up on the basis of a tight vote. Should have some sort of level (maybe two thirds or so). Do A league teams get a say?

[Louth4sam]

Again, what would first division pitches have to do with Europe?

Nothing that's my point. I'm not picking on Mervue here but they have a vote that could ultimately remove any advantage our teams have when playing in Europe. Mervue will never play in Europe so European football is of no consequence to them. I would imagine standard of pitches would have little consequence either as the standard of football in the first is generally rubbish anyway (I know because we were in it for long enough and were equally muck).



I think you're way off if you think all the top teams are for a summer season too.


Obviously not seeing as only 9 voted for summer. Even if Dundalk voted to change to winter I still think it's the wrong call for the league

[pineapple stu]

You're also aware that the recent problems in the league have often been as a result of the top sides wanting what they want, and screw the rest?

Ten team league? "Top" side idea to give themselves more gate receipts. Platinum 1? Pushed by the "top" sides. Invitational leagues? Very much pushed by the "top" sides. Wage cap? Actively opposed by the "top" sides.

On that basis, I'd only ask Mervue what they reckon we should do to the league, and follow their suggestions to the letter.

[L.T.F.C.]

New clubs have to come from somewhere. At most 4 clubs could be invited to Division One but they could invite only 2 bringing the number to 8 and a 28 game season.
The advantage of any alignment of the LoI and Intermediate/Junior league seasons is that they could work towards building some sort of pyramid structure, starting between the district and Intermediate leagues first before they look at a link from intermediate to the LoI somehow.

People are giving out about the repetition and playing teams 4 times a year is terrible, but you wouldn't mind lumping that on other teams. Real Sound.

[Macy]

Summer Season

Whether the overall trend of decline is purely down to summer football, the fact is that attendances are down during the summer months when the weather is at it's best. I think this is a fact rather than "give it a try" reason for switching. As was posted earlier, there's actually far more competition from other things during the summer months. It would be interesting to see what the breakdown of summer v winter season supporters is between family people and singletons.

The pitches thing is a bit of red herring imo - we have matches postponed with a summer season for waterlogged and frozen pitches, and we have the crucial matches just as the weather and pitches turn (in a normal autumn).

Europe is niether here nor there - if a summer season was such an advantage in europe, and then if european success (if you can say what we've had is success anyway) was such a benefit for the league, then why would there be any debate about moving in the first place?

It's no coincidence that leagues that have properly researched the switch to a summer season, such as Wales and Scotland have looked into the factors, and our experiment and concluded not to make the switch.

10 team v 16 team

10 team league hasn't worked this time, or the last time. We probably won't make the cut, but once there's promotion and relegation I can live with that. With a 16 team league it should be at least 3 straight down (promotion should be top 2, plus a playoff) - if a premier club is involved in the playoff they should be 4th from bottom. This would mainly to discourage clubs from overstretching to get up, or stay up.


At this stage, I think both the summer season and a 10 team premier should be justifying the continuation of the experiment rather than justifying the switch back to the traditional approach. Both have failed on anything you can measure imo.