16 Team Premier Division / Winter Season from 2012/13 TODAY'S DAILY MAIL

[osarusan]

We had a top 6/bottom 6 here before too.

Disaster of an idea

Howie King, Howie King, Howie King....

[legendz]

I'm guessing you haven't been involved in the administration of a junior or intermediate club. Every league "officer" I've ever encountered treats his league as the greatest league in the world. Many involved in the LSL for example, are openly dismissive of the LOI (and indeed everything that isn't LSL). They'd rather be medium fish in their mediocre pool than acknowledge the LOI as the pinnacle of the sport here

You guess right. I kind of guessed that situation would be there though. It'd be down to the FAI to work with the leagues and clubs if they were to go down that route. I'm sure it would not be easy.

[sullanefc]

legendz, every second post in this thread, you've mentioned "pyramid structure". In the current set up, its not going to happen, no matter how often you say it. No offence. The costs of joining the league is too high. Regionalising the first division might help, but as Dodge said, most of these intermediate/senior clubs see their own league as the pinnacle.

At the moment, any club in the country can apply to become a LOI team subject to criteria. No one wants it. In a pyramid structure only the teams on top of the leagues below would be allowed to join which would restrict things.

As well as that, in a pyramid structure, the geography of the league could get skewed. How many clubs from Limerick or Dublin would get promoted? This would dilute support for existing clubs. Look at the situation in Galway. The extra 2 galway clubs should not have been allowed in, but in a pyramid system, you'd have to let them in.

I know its a dirty word around here but I'm for a Franchise system. Only allow clubs in, who are from an area without an existing LOI club who could develop a support base from that area.

[peadar1987]

You guess right. I kind of guessed that situation would be there though. It'd be down to the FAI to work with the leagues and clubs if they were to go down that route. I'm sure it would not be easy.

The FAI should grow a pair, draw up a coherent and integrated plan for football at all levels, consult with experts in league organisation from other countries, and then tell the LSL and other clubs that they can either fit into the FAI structure, or forget about competing in FAI competitions and receiving FAI development grants. It should be about football, and what's best for the game in this country, not about some petty little man on a power trip.

[peadar1987]

not about some petty little man on a power trip.

John Delaney aside.

[legendz]

legendz, every second post in this thread, you've mentioned "pyramid structure". In the current set up, its not going to happen, no matter how often you say it. No offence. The costs of joining the league is too high. Regionalising the first division might help, but as Dodge said, most of these intermediate/senior clubs see their own league as the pinnacle.

At the moment, any club in the country can apply to become a LOI team subject to criteria. No one wants it. In a pyramid structure only the teams on top of the leagues below would be allowed to join which would restrict things.

As well as that, in a pyramid structure, the geography of the league could get skewed. How many clubs from Limerick or Dublin would get promoted? This would dilute support for existing clubs. Look at the situation in Galway. The extra 2 galway clubs should not have been allowed in, but in a pyramid system, you'd have to let them in.

I know its a dirty word around here but I'm for a Franchise system. Only allow clubs in, who are from an area without an existing LOI club who could develop a support base from that area.

I've mentioned it and I'm going to keep mentioning it where I see fit.
In the current set-up it will not happen. In the long-term as I've said, it should be the goal. Dodge did make a good point on clubs seeing their own league as the pinnacle. It's still no reason that FAI can't talk with these clubs about regionalising the Intermediate leagues and link them to the district leagues.

I used to be in agreement on the current structures and on how clubs can apply if they want. At the moment the interest isn't there as you say. If the district leagues were feeding into a regionalised intermediate leagues though, it could work. In sport, position should be earned. It might be restrictive in some respects but for anyone to go places, it should be earned and that brings more respect with it.

The model I was looking at was that 4 district leagues would feed into one division of 8 at that level. Down where I'm from that'd be the top sides of the two Limerick Leagues, Kerry and West Cork feeding into one division.

Support would not get diluted too much. A lot of these clubs from Limerick and Dublin as you say would probably find there level around 3 and 4. There's also criteria which would have to be set. Club's as it stands aren't getting too much support. In an intermediate pyramid structure, clubs from places with populations of about 5000 would probably get to a level or two above their district league. It'd be enough to raise the profile of their clubs within their communities/region and their crowds probably would match the 1st division in some cases. This would widen the appeal of the league and the higher clubs would most likely get an increase in their own support.

Franchise is a dirty word and I'm against it. I was of the opinion Kerry should have a club for Kerry, for the region but now I'm not for it. Clubs are clubs and they should represent what they stand for. There's still nothing to stop a side like Carlow being created for their County if it's what that regions wants and they'll get the support for it.

Allow clubs in who earn their place and meet the criteria set.



The FAI should grow a pair, draw up a coherent and integrated plan for football at all levels, consult with experts in league organisation from other countries, and then tell the LSL and other clubs that they can either fit into the FAI structure, or forget about competing in FAI competitions and receiving FAI development grants. It should be about football, and what's best for the game in this country, not about some petty little man on a power trip.

They should grow a pair. Dialogue with clubs has to be opened if they are to look at an integrated football league system. The GAA faced opposition from clubs when they started the All-Ireland club championships. It was a similar enough situation in some respects where clubs were top of their regions and didn't want that affected by a Provincial and All-Ireland championship.
You are right, it should be about football and what's good for football in this country.
The league as a whole as it stands has a very small fan base. In a pyramid system from District to Intermediate to the National League, clubs will find their level. Not many will get to highest level and be able to compete nationally. I know of clubs from areas of about 5000 populations and if they had a club a level or two above their own district league as I've mentioned, it would raise the profile of the clubs, they'd get more coverage of it and decent crowds to go with it.
While people are right to say it's not going to happen in the current set-up, there's no reason why it should not be the long-term goal.

[Dodge]

Howie King, Howie King, Howie King....

Wrong man. its Ken de Mange I hate because of that year.

Was brutal the year after too (when we finished 9th)

[LukeO]

I'd hazard a guess that the one club was Pats. About 4/5 people involved in the club on a day to day basis and they had a semi final to arrange for the following day.

I should point out I've no idea if Pats were the club to miss out, but they're the only ones I think that could have an excuse for not turning up.

From yesterday's Mail.


BOHEMIANS, the Premier Division champions, were the only club not to respond to a League of Ireland survey dealing with important issues such as a return to a winter season and the ideal number of teams in the Premier Division. The 12-9 winter v summer split of clubs was replicated in the diverse suggestions for the number of teams in the top flight, which ranged from 10 to 22, while 10 clubs want to scrap the A Championship.

:shame:

[Cabs88]

Keep the summer season, but have kick off times at 11 o clock at night.. that way farmers are finished working, no gaa at that time and games played under the floodlights..

[Spudulika]

legendz, every second post in this thread, you've mentioned "pyramid structure". In the current set up, its not going to happen, no matter how often you say it. No offence. The costs of joining the league is too high. Regionalising the first division might help, but as Dodge said, most of these intermediate/senior clubs see their own league as the pinnacle.

At the moment, any club in the country can apply to become a LOI team subject to criteria. No one wants it. In a pyramid structure only the teams on top of the leagues below would be allowed to join which would restrict things.

As well as that, in a pyramid structure, the geography of the league could get skewed. How many clubs from Limerick or Dublin would get promoted? This would dilute support for existing clubs. Look at the situation in Galway. The extra 2 galway clubs should not have been allowed in, but in a pyramid system, you'd have to let them in.

I know its a dirty word around here but I'm for a Franchise system. Only allow clubs in, who are from an area without an existing LOI club who could develop a support base from that area.

Sullane mea culpa on this, it was I who led the cheerleading for an integrated system of leagues, and having worked with such projects I know that they would work in Ireland, a franchise system (examined by colleagues of mine in another jurisdiction) would not be so successful in Ireland, especially in the current environment and with the mess that is football in Ireland. If clubs knew that by entering leagues, or winning promotion, they would have to shape up, then you would fine the stronger (ie more organised) surviving, and the messes finding a level. This "Dublin" fear seems to be used too often by non-Dublin based supporters to actually have a meaning. A genuine club who build from the ground up and work to gain promotion will do so, regardless of where they're from. Such a fear has no base and is rubbished in a small country like Ireland.

On the topic of winter football, I read in the Star today that Roddy is in great support of it, which just cemented my opinion that summer football has to stay.

[sullanefc]

I still don't believe that a pyramid structure would work in Ireland. If there was such a structure in the morning, who would get promoted?

If you look at the intermediate cup last year and look at the teams that qualified for the quarter finals you had:
Fanad United FC (Donegal) V Avondale United FC (Cork)
Crumlin United FC (Dublin) V Bluebell United FC (Dublin)
Rockmount AFC (Cork) V Dublin Bus FC (Dublin)
Tolka Rovers FC (Dublin) V Drogheda Town FC (Drogheda)

All from areas where LOI clubs already exist. If they were in the league you'd end up diluting support from Cork City, Finn Harps and the Dublin teams.

You could also look at the junior cup:
Willow Park (Athlone) v Clonmel Town (Tipperary)
Regional Utd (Limerick) v Shangan Ath. (Dublin)
Fairview Rgs (Limerick) v Kilmallock FC (Limerick)
St. Michaels (Tipperary) v Pike Rovers (Limerick)

With the exception of the two Tipperary teams, the other clubs are from areas that already have LOI teams.

While all the clubs above have good teams, what would they bring to the LOI in terms of support and facilities? Look at Mervue and Salthill, what have they brought to the league?

At least if you had a franchise system, you could select teams that could possibly build up a support base to sustain a decent semi pro team.

As well as that, the two most successful (in terms of spectators) sports in Ireland are franchises. The GAA and the rugby. How successful would Irish rugby be in Europe if we entered AIB league teams? While I wouldn't agree with setting up Munster FC and Leinster FC, we could surely have clubs from counties without LOI representation and with good support from the FAI and the local leagues underneath them, then they would surely develop a support base.

I know Kildare County and Kilkenny City didn't work out, but I think in the case of Kildare, they were seen as a Newbridge club rather than a Kildare team.

[Spudulika]

I'm confused on how rugby and GAA are franchises? Unless I've been totally wrong and misinformed my whole life, in both codes clubs have almost entirely grown organically, from ground up rather than given a licence to play. You need to remember that provinces have been around in a cultural sense since the early medieval period and indeed pre-date the arrival of christianity here. While the administration system of counties were largely based on tribal boundaries/kingdoms and refined in the 13th century. I can only give examples of clubs I was involved with, both of which were formed by local youths/adults and grew from this to the senior clubs they are today. Likewise most football clubs have grown the same way - even Foras Co-op CC were formed by fans and local business people, others were works teams etc. It has been shown that in established countries franchises largely do not work, and a system of franchises I'm afraid would be doomed to failure. Though would it fail more than what we have at present?

As has been shown in countries with a pyramid system, fanbase grows and shrinks with progression through leagues (up or down). So a well run club with 2-300 at matches in Dublin, playing in a (hypothetical) 6th tier, would expect to increase this incrementally as they rise up the leagues to a level where they can sustain a part-time side and beyond. Whereas a country club would be in an even better position, as is shown in the GAA (as an example of local ties and good promotion). Last year I was at a Junior 2nd Division match in Louth, in a place which can't really be called a village, more than 100 people paid in. This goes down to connecting with the community and also stability, instead of moving from place to place without a home (as is too often the case in football). Compare that to an Intermediate match I watched in Dublin in May, where there were barely 10 people watching. Just because it's in Dublin doesn't mean bigger crowds, everything boils down to organisation, management and consistency.

[sullanefc]

I'm confused on how rugby and GAA are franchises? Unless I've been totally wrong and misinformed my whole life, in both codes clubs have almost entirely grown organically, from ground up rather than given a licence to play. You need to remember that provinces have been around in a cultural sense since the early medieval period and indeed pre-date the arrival of christianity here. While the administration system of counties were largely based on tribal boundaries/kingdoms and refined in the 13th century. I can only give examples of clubs I was involved with, both of which were formed by local youths/adults and grew from this to the senior clubs they are today. Likewise most football clubs have grown the same way - even Foras Co-op CC were formed by fans and local business people, others were works teams etc. It has been shown that in established countries franchises largely do not work, and a system of franchises I'm afraid would be doomed to failure. Though would it fail more than what we have at present?

Can a new county be set up in GAA to compete in the All Ireland?? NO.
Can a new irish rugby club be set up to compete in the Magners League?? NO.

They are called franchises. They are closed shops and the Associations/Unions of both codes decides what teams take part. Whether they idea of a county or province has been around for years or not is irrelevant to whether they are franchises or not.



As has been shown in countries with a pyramid system, fanbase grows and shrinks with progression through leagues (up or down). So a well run club with 2-300 at matches in Dublin, playing in a (hypothetical) 6th tier, would expect to increase this incrementally as they rise up the leagues to a level where they can sustain a part-time side and beyond. Whereas a country club would be in an even better position, as is shown in the GAA (as an example of local ties and good promotion). Last year I was at a Junior 2nd Division match in Louth, in a place which can't really be called a village, more than 100 people paid in. This goes down to connecting with the community and also stability, instead of moving from place to place without a home (as is too often the case in football). Compare that to an Intermediate match I watched in Dublin in May, where there were barely 10 people watching. Just because it's in Dublin doesn't mean bigger crowds, everything boils down to organisation, management and consistency.

The part in bold that I have highlighted is absolute fantasy when it comes to Irish football. So a village in Louth gets 100 people into matches. That doesn't guarantee that they are a good team that would win promotion, and even if they did, there is no guarantee that their attendance would rise.

A team from Dublin, with no crowds, could theoretically gather a talented group of players together for a period of 7-8 years and rise through the pyramid. When they get to the LOI level, will they be getting attendances to match Bohs/Shels/Pats?? I don't think so. Chances are, when that group of players finish up, they will drop like a stone back down the leagues having added nothing to the league.

[Spudulika]

Simply on the "franchise" element, I think you're being rather liberal with the concept, unlike in the USA and Canada the county system in GAA is not a franchise network - if it was then Kilkenny's football licence would be removed and given to, for example, a region of Kerry or Dublin. Likewise the provincial system in rugby was fine tuned to incorporate professional structures, and continues to work on this basis from central contracting (much to many people's chagrin). Plus both are rooted in local clubs which are based on certain areas, normally defined by smaller medieval creations of parishes. The better comparison would be the GAA club system, as I'd presented, or the AIL, so that a small club setting up in a village can pool it's resources and find it's level, wherever that may be.

A franchise system would only work if football in Ireland were going to start from scratch, award each county a club or two and try to make it work, unfortunately there are too many vested interests to have it happen, while setting up a super league would help though that's what we have right now. So is it just that the FAI created Sporting Kerry, Sporting Offaly, Sporting Meath and Sporting Mayo to push matters along.

The "fantasy" as you say is actually reality. They are a club in West Louth who last won a Junior Championship a few years ago but have dropped back from Intermediate after only a year or so up. When they were at the higher level Annaghminnon were getting in excess of 400 at matches, that's what a winning club which is well run and organised, with support from the governing body can do. Attendances normally rise after promotion, even in football, and one only has to look at Sporting Fingal for living proof. Much can be down to bigger away contingents than anything else, however they are paying punters so it counts.

Your theoretical club from Dublin, which could be in Carlow, Midleton, Ballina or Kingscourt would need to bring in reinforcements to support the good group of players in place, that's what most clubs have done. Plus with a well run youth section the 10-12 year olds at club foundation would be 18-20 year olds when the first generation of players leave or retire, so replacements can be gradually introduced. Again support from above helps in this. Clubs can go up and the go bang and drop away again, what they add is very much open to opinion. Home Farm tried full on LOI football and then dropped away, have they contributed to Irish football? Likewise Cobh, Derry, Cork, Shels etc, all went up, down and (in Cobh and Derry's cases) back up again.

[sullanefc]

I disagree.

[legendz]

It's true, what clubs add is very much open to debate. If a club was to rise up the league, maybe only one would get promoted to Division One every season. That wouldn't affect the Premier much. Clubs with good support and good structures shouldn't have much to fear.
Should any club be good enough to kick on and get to the top tier, well it will have been earned. The best promotion of the league is having it as the pinnacle on a pyramid structure. Reaslistically I can't see it happening anytime soon but it should as I say be the long-term goal. The A Championship as it is is a good interim league.

[Macy]

The League of Ireland only has the same pull in the FAI as the other affiliates. Do you think Delaney is going to attempt to force a structure on the intermediate leagues at the risk of internal political trouble?

In my opinion, we already basically have a pyramid structure anyway - there is nothing stopping a junior or intermediate club making the step up if they want to. The structure is there via the A championship, and was there before to some degree with the election/ re-election process.

[peadar1987]

The League of Ireland only has the same pull in the FAI as the other affiliates. Do you think Delaney is going to attempt to force a structure on the intermediate leagues at the risk of internal political trouble?


I know he isn't, but it's what I think he should do. It's not just about the League of Ireland, it's about football as a whole in this country. His job should be developing that instead of pursuing political unity for its own sake.

[legendz]

The League of Ireland only has the same pull in the FAI as the other affiliates. Do you think Delaney is going to attempt to force a structure on the intermediate leagues at the risk of internal political trouble?

In my opinion, we already basically have a pyramid structure anyway - there is nothing stopping a junior or intermediate club making the step up if they want to. The structure is there via the A championship, and was there before to some degree with the election/ re-election process.

I was saying this weeks ago but have changed my tune on this one. The A Championship as you say is a good interim league and offers a gate-way to the league. The long-term goal though should be a pyramid system. A structure like that would promote the game itself. If a club is run well and they earn a place a level or two above their own district league, it'd do a lot more for the promotion of the game than an application to the A Championship.

[oriel]

I think a 16 team PD is still worth trying, also if we were to move away from summer football, why not be smart about the new season and start it in late Sept when the GAA is almost over.

Run it to the start of June, so we could have a chance of fine weather and long evenings for the end of the season, and by ending this late, the clubs would be fresh enough for the euro games. Also a 2 week break in Feb would prob be the best option (on avg the coldest mth of the year)

[legendz]

Clubs would be playing all year round it that was brought in, well the sides playing in Europe. In mid July, it's near when most sides are in Europe, just after the major Championships and a lot of sides are already out of the GAA.

[A face]

Winter Football could be seeing an return if some people have their way. If does change back then is it fair to ask on what grounds. And i'm not on about a vote or motion put forward, i'm on about a reasoned logical rational as to what the short term, mid term and long term advantages and disadvantages. Some measurables would be good.

I really cant see the pro to moving back. If there are any then people someone let me know what they are.

Is this going to be one of the biggest gaffs in LOI Football history?

Will the people who are trying to drive this through be answerable and accountable afterwards? Thats something we should have at the very least.

[OneRedArmy]

A lot of clubs are allegedly in favour.

Deckchairs on the Titanic stuff IMO. There's a hundred other more material things wrong with the League that energy should be devoted to sorting.

I'm not hugely in favour of the summer season either, but if clubs think its the answer to the problems they are even dumber than I thought (and thats pretty damn dumb).

Time to roll out the argument that every kid with a hurley in their hand and every adult watching their club or county side would be bursting through the gates of their nearest LoI ground if we played in the winter. Lets also use summer holidays and the feckin harvest as a reason not to go during the summer season while we're at it.....

[Mr A]

I've heard no one say that the clubs think this will solve their problems. I think it just boils down to the clubs feeling that the crowds were better in the winter season.

Although I'd like to see a transparent and clearly thought out decision process, this transition makes more sense than the move to summer football. At least this time the clubs know what they're getting into.

[MariborKev]

Will the people who are trying to drive this through be answerable and accountable afterwards? Thats something we should have at the very least.

That's easy. Just ring up each club and ask them what their views on this very subject where in the recent questionnaire/conference in Athlone.

[Spudulika]

This is a real rose tinted glasses thing, crowds were worse in some cases in the winter and certainly it's far easier to go a match on a Friday evening in August that getting soaked in Ballybofey in February. My mind was made up when I heard the most lucid and to the point, as well as all round thinker, in the LOI say it was better to go back to the winter league.

[A face]

That's easy. Just ring up each club and ask them what their views on this very subject where in the recent questionnaire/conference in Athlone.

I know, that's what i'm referring to. How did clubs come to their conclusions before voting.


I've heard no one say that the clubs think this will solve their problems. I think it just boils down to the clubs feeling that the crowds were better in the winter season.

Well this 'feeling' just doesn't cut it. Its complete suicide in my opinion .... "LOI commits hara kiri with last move of the deck chairs" is what the headline should read.


Although I'd like to see a transparent and clearly thought out decision process, this transition makes more sense than the move to summer football. At least this time the clubs know what they're getting into.

I dont think all the stakeholders were asked by clubs for a start, so its club administrators taking it upon themselves to implement this. And for this i think we should all know their names at the very least.

Its the dumbest think i have ever seen. If the Winter Football Brigade (WFB) think it will improve the situation they should be made quantify it. Its a reasonable request and if a change of this magnitude were to be made in any other industry it would be a prerequisite to even requesting talks on the topic.

Are the WFB qualified enough to even be given this choice? :skeleton::skeleton::skeleton:

[A face]

My mind was made up when I heard the most lucid and to the point, as well as all round thinker, in the LOI say it was better to go back to the winter league.

Who is that anyway?

[Lim till i die]

Just to clarify face, are you saying you disagree with the proposed move back to winter football??

[Dodge]

Just to clarify face, are you saying you disagree with the proposed move back to winter football??

And more importantly, how did you come to this conclusion? Where's your research?

[Réiteoir]

This is a real rose tinted glasses thing, crowds were worse in some cases in the winter and certainly it's far easier to go a match on a Friday evening in August that getting soaked in Ballybofey in February. My mind was made up when I heard the most lucid and to the point, as well as all round thinker, in the LOI say it was better to go back to the winter league.

I remember going to a Home Farm vs. Cobh game at Whitehall in the First Division a couple of days before New Year back in the early 2000's.

Temperature was probably approaching minus 5 - and the attendance for this game?

25 (counted them all myself)

[L.T.F.C.]

I remember going to a Home Farm vs. Cobh game at Whitehall in the First Division a couple of days before New Year back in the early 2000's.

Temperature was probably approaching minus 5 - and the attendance for this game?

25 (counted them all myself)

Hardly giants of the game are they?

[OneRedArmy]

I defy someone to produce credible evidence that overall attendences either were better in the winter season or will improve in a winter season in the future.

Another panacea that avoids confronting the real issues.

[Macy]

You're all getting the argument the wrong way around. It's the proponants of summer football should be justifying why we should stick with a move that has failed. We should be looking at what were the measureable successes (short, medium and long term) of summer football.

The biggest gaff in LOI football history has already happened - the move to a summer season!

btw Did this really need another thread when there is already one that is largely concentrating on this issue. Is this the type of research that lead to the original switch?

[Aberdonian Stu]

You're all getting the argument the wrong way around. It's the proponants of summer football should be justifying why we should stick with a move that has failed.

Actually I think the point earlier about how it's unclear if there's any difference in summer/winter Football is far more relevant a question. There hasn't been much, if any, evidence shown to say either has real benefits. We can all point to anecdotal stuff but seeing as no-one was accurately keeping track of crowds/other sources of income during the winter days and the differences in trends between winter and summer Football it's not really based on much.

Focusing on 'when we play' as opposed to pretty much every other area that needs addressing, or heaven forbid trying to plan for anything based on some actual research and thinking rather than guess-work, seems to be an area of lesser concern.

[D.24saint]

The biggest gaff in LOI football history has already happened - the move to a summer season!

wouldnt agree the introduction of the super monotonous ten team league was the biggest mistake the loi ever made we have played sligo rovers seven times (or will have) this season who but the hardcore fans wants to pays good money for that,plus many clubs priced the casual fan out of the game with the twenty quid madness that went through the league a few years back loyal fans will pay it but the casual punter that I have talked to found the idea of a twenty into a loi match ludicrous,imo going back to winter at this stage will do nothing but drive crowds further down.

[Charlie Darwin]

You're all getting the argument the wrong way around. It's the proponants of summer football should be justifying why we should stick with a move that has failed. We should be looking at what were the measureable successes (short, medium and long term) of summer football.
The weather is better. Does there need to be another reason? The relative success or lack of success of the LOI has very little to do with the calendar and everything to do with nobody being interested.

[Spudulika]

Who is that anyway?

It was in the Star on Sunday - need I say more! Which is odd as he was one of the supporters of Summer football, up until 3 weeks ago!

I agree that the change wasn't the greatest gaffe in Irish football, plus that this is not going to solve the game's ills. However it is now down to the FAI to stand up and be counted and try to improve football in Ireland. It's nothing radical, just a bit of cop on.

[CuanaD]

For Winter football: the players can take holidays in the summer

For Summer football: I get to far more games in the Summer - I hate sitting in the freezing & wet watching a match in the winter & I won't go back to that.


So, winter football is for the players & their families, Summer football is for casual supporters like me who won't go to any match no matter what.

[pineapple stu]

btw Did this really need another thread when there is already one that is largely concentrating on this issue.
Agreed. Threads merged.

[Mr A]

Why are people saying the clubs think this will be a panacea? It's far more likely that they think it's just a small step in the right direction. To dress it otherwise is tending towards the hysterical.

And some of the arguments I've read about how terrible winter football is are very amusing. You'd almost think we didn't have a league running here in winter for the best part of a century. Or that football didn't become the country's biggest spectator sport with almost every league playing through the winter.

A lot of fuss about very little really.

[OneRedArmy]

Why are people saying the clubs think this will be a panacea? It's far more likely that they think it's just a small step in the right direction. To dress it otherwise is tending towards the hysterical.

And some of the arguments I've read about how terrible winter football is are very amusing. You'd almost think we didn't have a league running here in winter for the best part of a century. Or that football didn't become the country's biggest spectator sport with almost every league playing through the winter.

A lot of fuss about very little really.Why is it even a small step in the right direction? Is there any evidence that, overall, it will be any way beneficial to the League?

Its a sideways step IMO.

The one concrete near fact is that our European performances will be negatively impacted. Its highly likely they will be even more negatively impacted by the decreased wages in the League, but winter football won't improve it.

[Macy]

The one concrete near fact is that our European performances will be negatively impacted. Its highly likely they will be even more negatively impacted by the decreased wages in the League, but winter football won't improve it.
Any concrete facts around how european performances actually benefit the league in total?

[Dodge]

Any concrete facts around how european performances actually benefit the league in total?

Or even how they've benefitted the clubs themselves?

Best performers in europe in the last 7 years; Cork, Derry, Shels, Pats, Drogheda. Only Pats haven't been relegated and our European runs haven't added many to the gate (if any at all)

[OneRedArmy]

Any concrete facts around how european performances actually benefit the league in total?


Or even how they've benefitted the clubs themselves?

Best performers in europe in the last 7 years; Cork, Derry, Shels, Pats, Drogheda. Only Pats haven't been relegated and our European runs haven't added many to the gate (if any at all)I've got a lot of quality photos and I'm still paying the bills...... but I've yet to see one reason to justify changing season.

Surely the onus is on those requesting the change to demonstrate why its beneficial rather than the other way around?

[osarusan]

Surely the onus is on those requesting the change to demonstrate why its beneficial rather than the other way around?

It could have been argued before the last change as well, but we are where we are now with summer football. I think there are few compelling arguments to be made for the advantage of one over the other, so for that reason I'd say we should leave it alone.

[Steve Bruce]

Suppose the positives will be the fact you wont be competing with GAA. Also the organisation of the Setanta cup should be a lot easier.

Outside of that I fail to see how else it would benefit the league moving from Summer to Winter.

[peadar1987]

Suppose the positives will be the fact you wont be competing with GAA. Also the organisation of the Setanta cup should be a lot easier.

Outside of that I fail to see how else it would benefit the league moving from Summer to Winter.

Tha GAA don't play on Friday evenings though, so I don't think the competition is as much as some people say it is. It's probably too much to ask of Pineapple Stu to compare the attendances during weekends with GAA to the other weekends, but I doubt there'd be too much of a significat difference when you take into account that the non-GAA games take place away from the key beginning and end of season periods.

[Macy]

Suppose the positives will be the fact you wont be competing with GAA. Also the organisation of the Setanta cup should be a lot easier.
Or World Cups, or having a mid season break. And the fact that crowds are better at the start and end of the season when the weather is generally worse.

The reason why it should be the summer side justifying the retention is that it was a move from the traditional season that had served us relatively well (we'd survived that long anyway!) up until the move. Summer season is still a break from the norm. The assumptions about it being direct competition from UK football, and the weather being bad have turned out to be false - crowds are down during the UK close season, when the weather is at it's best. A winter season won't be a panacea or a silver bullet - it will be back to the traditional times were the clubs obviously feel they can maximise support they have.

[Dodge]

I've got a lot of quality photos and I'm still paying the bills...... but I've yet to see one reason to justify changing season.

Surely the onus is on those requesting the change to demonstrate why its beneficial rather than the other way around?

Why that's true, in this case you're using Europe as a reason to stay in Summer. I'm saying that European results haven't helped the league so its pointless bringing it up.

I'm not in charge of any club but I prefer Winter football. I'll still go in summer