16 Team Premier Division / Winter Season from 2012/13 TODAY'S DAILY MAIL [Archive] - Page 13

Lim till i die

02/10/2011, 11:46 PM

So another discussion on the league structure descends into 'my team isn't quite as **** as yours, yet'

its enough to make baby pyramid structures cry

Do you reckon that's why the FAI never know what they are doing with the league until early Febuary??

Everytime they try to bring the clubs together around the table to sort it out, it just turns into a big **** measuring contest??

Would explain a LOT actually. :ball:

Stevo Da Gull

03/10/2011, 12:36 AM

Denmark.

Seriously, the number of teams in the league is not a big problem. I'll be glad to not have 4 fixtures against every team, and there was a time that I'd be delighted to hear this news but I'm not going to hold my breath that this change of structure will come along with the necessary changes to... well, most aspects of the way things are run here (vague enough for you?).

El-Pietro

03/10/2011, 1:27 AM

Tarmonbarry

myposts spaceshuttle

geezer

03/10/2011, 8:13 AM

From a Galway United fan. :D

Or I would worry. If it was any of my business. But it's not. So I don't care.

So how about you worry about Galway and I'll worry about Limerick?? x x

thats sensible & fair, lets hope lims continue to go in the right direction, the league need Limerick

Macy

03/10/2011, 8:39 AM

The talk on the radio was that the Longford game has importance so that they'll secure 5th but also a place in the top 6 in case of the impending changes.
They must have forgot to tell the waterford team though, as they didn't look interested (first half anyway).

I think 16 teams will probably help crowds, even allowing for having nothing to play for - derbies/ traditional games will mean more being only twice a season and there'd be more incentive to travel as an away fan. If mid table interest is an issue, have a play off for the final european spot and/or extend the relegation play off up the table as well. Or play off for the title, grand final style.

Spudulika

03/10/2011, 8:55 AM

Agree with Macy. we're too caught up in the LOI with the motherland - a big league season and the winner takes all. Better to have a full on league season, then a knock em down drag em out end of season play off. If there are 12 teams, top 8 qualify and go from quarters to final. Bottom 2 go down, 3rd and 4th last play off with 3rd and 4th in the 1st division for a single spot, though hard to justify it with only 12 teams, better the 16.

Regardless, a play off for the top 8 makes sense, will give even teams in 9/10 next season something to battle for. And mid table sides can keep going, I'm sure fans will buy into it after a year or 2.

osarusan

03/10/2011, 9:50 AM

Better to have a full on league season, then a knock em down drag em out end of season play off. If there are 12 teams, top 8 qualify and go from quarters to final. Bottom 2 go down, 3rd and 4th last play off with 3rd and 4th in the 1st division for a single spot, though hard to justify it with only 12 teams, better the 16.

Regardless, a play off for the top 8 makes sense, will give even teams in 9/10 next season something to battle for. And mid table sides can keep going, I'm sure fans will buy into it after a year or 2.

Awful, awful idea.

Macy

03/10/2011, 11:00 AM

Awful, awful idea.
The traditionalist in me agree's, but part of me also feels that rather than another shifting the deckchairs change of numbers in the premier, we have to do something radical to reinvent the league. Rugby (both league and union) seems to have adjusted to the change? I would have it that the league winner is guaranteed Europa League at least though to maintain the importance of the league table.

Spudulika

03/10/2011, 11:01 AM

Awful, awful idea.

Why so?

legendz

03/10/2011, 12:21 PM

If there is talk of a 16 team premier from the FAI, it'd suggest more that one A Championship side could be invited to the first division. These clubs have until 30th November to meet the criteria required. When is the date for the current 21 clubs to find out their licences for next year? That is bound to have a bearing on any changes to the Premier.
If only one A Championship club is invited I think they'll go with 12 in the Premier and 10 in the FD. If at least 3 are invited, it could be 12 & 12 or 16 & 8.

BonnieShels

03/10/2011, 1:02 PM

The date is a closely guarded secret. Even the clubs dint know.

Macy

03/10/2011, 1:07 PM

When is the date for the current 21 clubs to find out their licences for next year? That is bound to have a bearing on any changes to the Premier.
Week before the first round of fixtures for the licences to be finalised, give or take a week.

gormacha

03/10/2011, 1:40 PM

The traditionalist in me agree's, but part of me also feels that rather than another shifting the deckchairs change of numbers in the premier, we have to do something radical to reinvent the league. Rugby (both league and union) seems to have adjusted to the change?

Please, please no.

Rugby in England may have made that change, but its been far from universally welcomed. I have lived a large part of my life in the northwest of England and have seen how it impacted on rugby league, which went from being a "bottom up" sport, played in schools and local clubs with a recognised pyramidal structure, to what is effectively a "top down" franchised commercial sports league which is closer to the NFL model than its cultural roots. The playoffs are an aspect of this new reality. There is now something horribly artificial about Super League rugby.

Rugby League changed its culture in order to attract TV money. Even if we change, we still wouldn't be attractive to TV. If LOI introduced similar playoffs, we would end up with the artificiality without the commerciality. The worst of both worlds.

I'm all for rethinking how the LOI is structured, but the integrity of the league format is what makes football football.

Can anyone point out any league in the world where this has been done and has improved matters?

Even as a Blues' supporter, I'll take the meaningless end of season matches we've had to endure this season over any artificial possibility of silverware. Anyway, isn't misery supposed to be part of the football supporters lot?

Macy

03/10/2011, 1:55 PM

nigel-harps1954

03/10/2011, 2:04 PM

I'm all for a 16 team Premier, but if Harps aren't involved...then I'm not for it. Thats simple enough isn't it?

gormacha

03/10/2011, 2:05 PM

I would've thought it was the closed shop nature of it that were the real (negative) changes in Rugby League to be honest, rather than the play offs. They were part of the new format, but are they really that big an issue? However, I don't want to come across as a zealot on the issue, as I'm not, I just think it's something that should be considered.

Well, you may not be, but I suspect I am a zealot on this issue.

You make a reasonable point about the closed shop being perhaps more of an issue than the playoffs in rugby league, but i would argue that they are both part of a commercialising and commodifying process which sucks the integrity of the sport away in order to pander to "nearly" supporters.

Imagine if it were introduced in, say, a twelve team LOI PD, and you allowed eight teams in, where is the incentive to chase down difficult victories when all you have to do is finish fifth bottom or better? I think players would switch off. Also, loads of games would become effectively meaningless - which perhaps is little different to as things are now, except it would be the teams at the top who would have nothing to play for, rather than the teams in mid-table as is the case now. That can't be right, surely?

Playoffs work well for promotion, but not to decide a league. Lord save us from Americanisms!

Macy

03/10/2011, 2:22 PM

Imagine if it were introduced in, say, a twelve team LOI PD, and you allowed eight teams in, where is the incentive to chase down difficult victories when all you have to do is finish fifth bottom or better? I think players would switch off. Also, loads of games would become effectively meaningless - which perhaps is little different to as things are now, except it would be the teams at the top who would have nothing to play for, rather than the teams in mid-table as is the case now. That can't be right, surely?

Playoffs work well for promotion, but not to decide a league. Lord save us from Americanisms!
I don't think it'd work in a 12 team league, only in an extended league, and I'm not even sure I'd go down as far as 8th. Presumably league rankings would count on as to who you play and where. 1st would play 8th, at home, and so one down the line.

However, I really don't get the logic of play offs being ok for promotion but not for titles. Surely it's exactly the same argument for and against promotion playoffs? If the best team over the league should win the title, then the best 2 or 3 over the league should get promoted?

gormacha

03/10/2011, 3:21 PM

However, I really don't get the logic of play offs being ok for promotion but not for titles. Surely it's exactly the same argument for and against promotion playoffs? If the best team over the league should win the title, then the best 2 or 3 over the league should get promoted?

As I said, I am a zealot on this issue, and if I had my way there would be no use of playoffs for promotion either, so you are right to point out the inconsistency in my last post where I gave the impression I thought playoffs were good for promotion spots. What I meant to say was that playoffs work better in a promotion situation rather than deciding a championship winner, as the top teams still get rewarded whilst keeping interest up for other clubs. I still think this is "wrong", but I find it easier to accept than playoffs to decide a league winner.

oriel

03/10/2011, 8:05 PM

So another discussion on the league structure descends into 'my team isn't quite as **** as yours, yet'

its enough to make baby pyramid structures cry

Spot on, guilty of that myself, when you look at things, apart from a few clubs, is there anyone in good shape. Still think it was a decent enough standard this year, pity we ended up so rubbish. A 16 team PD would add to the quality imo.

legendz

03/10/2011, 9:20 PM

They must have forgot to tell the waterford team though, as they didn't look interested (first half anyway).

I think 16 teams will probably help crowds, even allowing for having nothing to play for - derbies/ traditional games will mean more being only twice a season and there'd be more incentive to travel as an away fan. If mid table interest is an issue, have a play off for the final european spot and/or extend the relegation play off up the table as well. Or play off for the title, grand final style.

I'd agree with a 4 team play-off for the final european place.

The traditionalist in me agree's, but part of me also feels that rather than another shifting the deckchairs change of numbers in the premier, we have to do something radical to reinvent the league. Rugby (both league and union) seems to have adjusted to the change? I would have it that the league winner is guaranteed Europa League at least though to maintain the importance of the league table.

Expanding to 16 if is to happen probably will be more shifting of deckchairs. The reaction to the news last year though, before Delaney poured cold water on Fran Gavin's comments, seemed positive in both media and amongst supporters.

cob655

03/10/2011, 9:55 PM

I fully agree with a 16 team premier,hopefully it will help get the media more intrested as there would be more teams and supporters for them to see their papers/tv adds to...
(one problem,would the good players be more split out through the 16 teams resulting in weaker teams on the european stage???Im not sure...)

Also please god this helps get more teams involved in the first div that havent been up to date,like maybe a laois club,a new kildare club and so on.
We need more soccer clubs in the countys that dont have them,as the people in these countys dont have a club of there own so dont care about the LOI and just watch the EPL,I know this to be a fact as i work in dublin with lads from all over the country..

Oh also agree with the 4 team playoff for the final europa cup spot!

legendz

03/10/2011, 10:09 PM

The first division will be more attractive than the A Championship for any potential new clubs. In fairness the U19 league is a good level to join and work on youth structures. I was surprised Castlebar and Tullamore didn't look to be involved in that at least though I guess they'd want a senior team involved as well to reap the rewards from any structures in place.

Martinho II

03/10/2011, 11:15 PM

on brian kennedys piece on facebook about his new book, he mentions the fact that there was a 16 team league here was from 1979 to 1982.. do many posters on here remember that period at all? I would like to see it happen as it least would be a two round series..

osarusan

03/10/2011, 11:21 PM

Why so?

Gormacha has given pretty much all the reasons I'd give - defeating the purpose of a league, leaving loads of games where there's nothing to play for (except this time it'd be the top teams with nothing to play for), going too far to attract people who aren't real football supporters.

Like him, I'd rather there were no relegation/promotion playoffs either, but they seem to be here to stay.

bennocelt

04/10/2011, 7:00 AM

Macy

04/10/2011, 8:07 AM

Spudulika

04/10/2011, 9:41 AM

Gormacha has given pretty much all the reasons I'd give - defeating the purpose of a league, leaving loads of games where there's nothing to play for (except this time it'd be the top teams with nothing to play for), going too far to attract people who aren't real football supporters.

Like him, I'd rather there were no relegation/promotion playoffs either, but they seem to be here to stay.

Osarusan, I won't try to change your mind, as we're only all discussing it. The purpose of having play-offs - in the format I mentioned, is to keep the season alive until the end. To rule out meaningless games a play-off where (in a 12 team league for example) having a playoff for the title could work to help this. Top 8 play off and the winner takes all. But probably top 8 is too much, top 4. But to rule out "unreal" football supporters is a bit of a disservice, if Limerick push on as you hope they will, there wil be plenty around Markets Field - will you turn them away and only allow those who braved the elements when the club was on its knees? We have to broaden the appeal of the LOI, though there isn't a quick fix anywhere.

citybone

04/10/2011, 10:00 AM

I would be against a 16 team prem and also against winter football (i prob could not go to games in December as i work in retail for a star.
12 Team split like the SPL seems reasonable but we need some sort of Pyramid system like they have in most countries. The Genesis made a number of suggestions and we just ignore most of them.
The fact the Welsh league copied our system and is improving as a result is a hint that we should not go towards a 16 team league again.

pineapple stu

04/10/2011, 10:04 AM

The Genesis Report made a number of suggestions and we just ignore most of them.
Probably a good idea to ignore that report in fairness.

eelmonster

04/10/2011, 10:15 AM

i prob could not go to games in December as i work in retail for a star.

Do you work for Santa/Jesus? Are you an elf/wise man (or shepherd)?

:present:

sadloserkid

04/10/2011, 10:25 AM

I suspect that the difference between having 12 or 16 teams in our top would be staggeringly minimal once the novelty of being at the top table wore off for the likes of Limerick. That said my only objection to having a 16 thing premier is that unless you had at least 10 teams in the division underneath them the clubs left behind might as well fold now. And we do NOT have enough clubs to facilitate a second tier with 16 in the premier as it stands. It's all well and good planning for clubs in places like Kildare and Kilkenny and Portlaoise from the outside but until those clubs magically appear in Legendz' Christmas stocking they can't be factored into the equation. We have less teams than is ideal but have to be realistic about the chances of new ones arriving too. It is a nice idea in theory if people are happy throwing 5 clubs to the wolves I suppose.

I hate the notion of playoffs deciding the title too. It's right down there with making the goalposts bigger and doing away with draws. The Belgians use a league broken into a number of championships don't they? I'm not much keener on that system but has anybody any idea how that's worked for them (maybe a UCD fan)?

legendz

04/10/2011, 10:39 AM

Gormacha has given pretty much all the reasons I'd give - defeating the purpose of a league, leaving loads of games where there's nothing to play for (except this time it'd be the top teams with nothing to play for), going too far to attract people who aren't real football supporters.

Like him, I'd rather there were no relegation/promotion playoffs either, but they seem to be here to stay.

I don't see the harm with them depending on the structure. Last years structure wasn't great. I'd support a play-off where the winner of a division earns automatic promotion and second place has a direct play-off with a team above. If third and fourth are included, the advantage of home advantage should go to the winner of the 2nd vs 3rd team. This year for example if there was no change, Shel going straight up with Monaghan then in a play-off with Drogheda would be fair. If they wanted to expand it, I wouldn't include teams above Drogheda but Cork and Limerick could be brought into it: Drogs v Limerick & Mons v Cork, with home advantage then to either Mons or Cork in the final. I'd see that as a fair play-off system giving fair advantage for doing well in the league while giving others an outside chance.

pineapple stu

04/10/2011, 10:43 AM

The Belgians use a league broken into a number of championships don't they? I'm not much keener on that system but has anybody any idea how that's worked for them (maybe a UCD fan)?
The Dutch had a ridiculously complicated version (http://www.rsssf.com/tablesn/ned07.html) for a couple of years anyway and then scaled it way down - there's just four teams now playing off for the last UEFA Cup spot (5th to 8th). They usually have six European spots though.

Dunno how the Belgian league play-off is working out, though it's more of a top-half/bottom-half split than a proper play-off. It does get fairly stupidly convoluted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2%80%9311_Belgian_Pro_League#Championship_Pl ayoff) though, and the idea of the bottom two teams playing each other five times to decide who goes down is just bizarre.

legendz

04/10/2011, 10:49 AM

I would've thought home advantage and a lower opponent would be something to play for? Plus a guaranteed european place for league winners. I'd be delighted with it going to 16 regardless of any other changes, and 16 teams should be the starting point for any further discussions.

Play-offs can work depending on their system and if they are giving a fair reward for finishing higher. Based on current standings of Sligo, Shamrock and Derry taking the first 3 places, a play-off for the final european spot would be: Pat's v Dundalk & Bohs v Bray. I'd only support the play-off in a 16 team premier. It would be a fair enough system. Everyone would know the rules before the beginning of the season. Pat's and Bohs would get the home tie and the highest league placed finalist would have home advantage.

pineapple stu

04/10/2011, 10:55 AM

Again, define "work"? And with reference to how the current system doesn't "work".

Mr Maroon

04/10/2011, 11:04 AM

adamd164

04/10/2011, 11:28 AM

So that puts the 16-team league talk to bed you would assume. 3 up, 1 down.

El-Pietro

04/10/2011, 11:37 AM

assume nothing with the FAI and the LOI Adam

jinxy lilywhite

04/10/2011, 11:50 AM

assume nothing with the FAI and the LOI Adam

because to assume makes an ASS of U & Me

John83

04/10/2011, 12:52 PM

Hurray! With this rumoured structural change (the second in less than a season), the league will be saved. Next year will see average attendances of 6000 in the top flight, with year on year gains of 12% thereafter. TV money, European success and global admiration will follow. All of our problems are solved.

Lim till i die

04/10/2011, 2:50 PM

thats sensible & fair, lets hope lims continue to go in the right direction, the league need Limerick

Very good.

For the record, the league probably needs a Galway team playing under a Galway moniker aswell.

Mervue seem to be a pretty good setup but I don't think they'll ever be bigger than a Monaghan size because it's a bit parochial.

S.E.P.1990

04/10/2011, 3:16 PM

Dates confirmed by the FAI this morning :

Away leg vs third placed First Division team : Tuesday 1st November

Home leg vs third placed First Division team : Friday 4th November

In the event of the third placed team qualifying for the FAI Cup Final, the second leg will be held on Wednesday 9th November.

Thanks for this. I was under the impression it was a one-off game at the home of the Premier league team. Hopefully it wont impact on Shels!

legendz

04/10/2011, 3:51 PM

So that puts the 16-team league talk to bed you would assume. 3 up, 1 down.

You would assume but you'd never know. I was surprised to hear them talking about it in Waterford but maybe it's wishful thinking down there. We won't know how many of Cobh, Carlow, Tralee and Fanad are invited until December. Initially it was believed to be one but there is scope for 3 to be invited if the FAI decide to opt for a 12 team FD below the planned 12 team premier.

Mr A

04/10/2011, 3:55 PM

12 and 12 first with a 16/10 split later would make sense if there are 24 teams that want to be in the league.

geezer

04/10/2011, 4:24 PM

Very good.

For the record, the league probably needs a Galway team playing under a Galway moniker aswell.

Mervue seem to be a pretty good setup but I don't think they'll ever be bigger than a Monaghan size because it's a bit parochial.

Is a club I have massive respect for, and support because im from there. The big competition they have is not GUFC or Salthill its St James GAA , a lot of the young lads in the eastern side of the corrib are training with St James and enjoying it more,
also the GAA season gets longer and longer every year and will cut into membership numbers at clubs like Mervue and the Rugby will cut into Devons numbers. The biggest worry for me is the amount of lads playing for Mervue U19 not from that catchment area this cant be good for local support in the long term and the quality of the brought in players is not as great as people were saying at the start of the u19 season. Mervue Utd was always about spirit and a disciplined yet tough soccer culture, if that gets too diluted they will have the same probs GUFC have suffered over the years

Spudulika

04/10/2011, 5:02 PM

A face

04/10/2011, 5:35 PM

If it goes back to winter football then i think i'll throw the towel in at that stage.

gormacha

04/10/2011, 5:49 PM

but it works in the GAA

Er, no it doesn't.

It only "works" insofar as no-one takes the National Leagues seriously. Even hardcore GAA fans don't take the League seriously. In fact, the counties don't even take it seriously, using it as a glorified training session. That's why the GAA can fanny about with the format, because ultimately no-one cares.

legendz

04/10/2011, 6:09 PM

Er, no it doesn't.

It only "works" insofar as no-one takes the National Leagues seriously. Even hardcore GAA fans don't take the League seriously. In fact, the counties don't even take it seriously, using it as a glorified training session. That's why the GAA can fanny about with the format, because ultimately no-one cares.

It's still important to do well in the league but yeah it is just the league. The GAA themselves don't do the league any favours with the constant restructuring of it. They could also use as seedings when it comes to championship qualifiers but that for a different section and sport!
I enjoy the league games though, it's good to see how counties are progressing. Some people dismiss it but playing in the highest division is an advantage when it comes to championship.

legendz

04/10/2011, 6:30 PM

Mr A has it right, a 12/12 pair of leagues. We'll always talk about a pyramid, it'll never come into play so long as football is so divided and an us and them attitude remains. Play offs are good for the game, for clubs and supporters. While our Premier isn't quite at teh sky league standard and it's subsidiary leagues, look at the 2nd division play off series to see how much it can mean. A play off for the title, it's different for most people, but it works in the GAA - you can win your division and still not be champion. I can just picture a Dundalk-UCD play-off final for a spot in the Champions league in 2013 :-)

If 12 & 12 was to come in, the promotion/relegation play-off should be tweaked back to a system of around '02 and '03. FD winner automatically promoted as always with 12th premier relegated. 11th premier should join 2nd, 3rd and 4th from the first division in a four way promotion/relegation play-off. I thought it was a good sytem the two seasons it was used. A reward for finishing in the top 6 of either division could be the extra home game in the following year.