16 Team Premier Division / Winter Season from 2012/13 TODAY'S DAILY MAIL

[El-Pietro]

Which was my point in the first place...a
so we're agreed! I was replying to LTID though

I'd say the likes of ourselves will be safe for a considerable amount of time, we've been through too much to throw it away now.

Future generations may gamble I would guess

[Macy]

Every season we complain about the league and the viability of same but in reality in order for us to have a national team we have to have a national league, (EUFA rule I believe), so the prospect of the national league collapsing is never going to materialise. However, if YOU were a business person who was the owner of one of these clubs you would possibly close the doors seeing it as unsustainable. Very few if any make a profit at the end of each year.Football to us is a sport, a great sport, but in reality at national league level it is a business, bills to be paid etc.. So why are clubs not run as businesses by proper business people? Is it possible that football people do not have business brains or that business people do not see football as a business? Premiership clubs market their brand in a business manner so always have bums on seats. How come we have games with less than 50 people at them? Who didn't do their job of getting people through the turnstiles? Or is there someboby employed to do that job? I could do that if somebody wants to employ me... for payment of course....
If I was a business owner of one of the clubs, I'd simply not spend more than was coming in, and then I'd have a sustainable club. If all clubs did this, we'd have a sustainable League. If we had an interested organisation, they'd be ensuring clubs were ran in a sustainable manner.

On ownership structure - I'd maintain that a membership structure is still the best long term. Members clubs have, and will continue to get into trouble. However, that structure at least has the potential for checks and balances within the club, whereas an owner can rack up the debts and then just pull the plug. Under the current licencing farce, member owned is about as good as we can get.

[legendz]

It not only football clubs, some GAA clubs have let themselves into a financial mess with land deals that haven't worked out as planned.

Surely the golden rule of any gambles is not to bet any more than they can afford to lose. It's a ridiculous situation anyways. Any club should only spend no more than what they can bring in. It's surely better to have a part-time set-up than put the club in trouble.

[derm]

Not wholly related to a lot of the recent debate in this thread but would it be correct to say that Pats and (for now) Bohs are the only clubs in the league without a recent enough relegation in their history? Leaving aside those clubs with no recent stint in the top tier like Wexford, the new newer Galway clubs and ourselves, the first division's permanent resident? A strange enough stat I would say.


No they're not. Technically Cork City FC has never been relegated despite just winning the first division :cool:

Come to think of it Shels weren't relegated either, they failed to get a premier licence. Unfortunately there are plenty stranger stats about this league than the one above :rolleyes:

[El-Pietro]

and Bray have been relegated 4 times in the last 3 seasons or something like that

[Dodge]

No they're not. Technically Cork City FC has never been relegated despite just winning the first division :cool:

If you want to get technical, this Cork city has never even played in the Premier....

[derm]

If you want to get technical, this Cork city has never even played in the Premier....

For shame Dodge. Cork City have a proud tradition of playing in the Premier division since 1984 and the first since 2011. We just took a break for a season ...

[Dodge]

It wasn't me who start bringing technicalities into it

[John83]

For shame Dodge. Cork City have a proud tradition of playing in the Premier division since 1984 and the first since 2011. We just took a break for a season ...
Indeed, the city of Cork has a long and glorious footballing history, with almost as many trophies as bankruptcies.

[sadloserkid]

So presuming Bohs slip away from the top flight then Pats will be the only team with any kind of lengthy unbroken tenure in our top tier? There's something disheartening about that surely (unless you're a Pats fan I suppose)?

[Macy]

There's something disheartening about that surely (unless you're a Pats fan I suppose)?
I really don't think it matters. On the contrary, the fact that teams come up and go down, can compete for trophies in any given season should be a selling point for the League. If it wasn't that so many relegations (and promotions) were for off the field matters rather than on it.

[Dodge]

So presuming Bohs slip away from the top flight then Pats will be the only team with any kind of lengthy unbroken tenure in our top tier? There's something disheartening about that surely (unless you're a Pats fan I suppose)?

Well its comforting for us certainly, but I don't think Bohs will go down this year

[passerrby]

I dont think there should be any promotion or relegation for at least three seasons. :cool:

[oriel]

Possible glimmer of hope for 4 extra FD teams, Dundalk Fc meeting tonight with fans, it was suggested a 16 team PD could be on the cards............then again who knows, clubs not officially informed what the make up of the 2012 division yet.

Is there is any other country in world football that this could happen in? pre season and we 'think' the Premier div will be 12 teams, but no one really knows.

[BonnieShels]

Possible glimmer of hope for 4 extra FD teams, Dundalk Fc meeting tonight with fans, it was suggested a 16 team PD could be on the cards............then again who knows, clubs not officially informed what the make up of the 2012 division yet.

Is there is any other country in world football that this could happen in? pre season and we 'think' the Premier div will be 12 teams, but no one really knows.

I wouldn't be surprised though.

I mean we FINALLY get promoted out of the FD and sure it could matter not a jot.

In what way was 16PD suggested to ye?

[nigel-harps1954]

Mad story in the mirror today, Stephen McGuinness giving out to the FAI about clubs not knowing whether there will be a 16 team premier or not.
On top of this, he gives out absolute stink to clubs for not giving players more than 1 year contracts, and how they have to go on the dole over the Christmas holidays...I read it with a degree of 'what the fjuck'

[Mr A]

They are a representative body for footballers. It should not surprise anybody that they are as thick as pig poo.

[nigel-harps1954]

I'm just confused as to who actually put McGuinness in charge of it? Or did he just decide to himself?


The culture of only offering players one-year deals is hurting the game - according to the PFAI.


"How are you supposed to build a club, build a fan base when every year clubs are changing players all the time and there is so much insecurity? It doesn't make sense to me.
Clubs need more foresight. You need a two or three year plan to build a club"

This Mr. McGuinness...is why you don't run a club.

[Dodge]

The part about quick turnover of oplayers not helping a club is true. But as usual McGuinness doesn't really address the reason why clubs are like this

[JC_GUFC]

Is there is any other country in world football that this could happen in? pre season and we 'think' the Premier div will be 12 teams, but no one really knows.

Have a look at this season's Greek League. They started with 14 teams and have just added another 2!

A few of the teams have played 10 games but the other 2 teams only joined last weekend so only have one game under their belts!

I guess like a few other things Greece looked at Ireland and said "Hey we can fu** things up even worse than them!"

[marinobohs]

Mad story in the mirror today, Stephen McGuinness giving out to the FAI about clubs not knowing whether there will be a 16 team premier or not.
On top of this, he gives out absolute stink to clubs for not giving players more than 1 year contracts, and how they have to go on the dole over the Christmas holidays...I read it with a degree of 'what the fjuck'

......if only clubs reflected the strong sense of loyalty that his members did in emm St pats euro tie, Gray and Shelley at Bohs, Fenn "retiring" from Dundalk etc etc etc

[legendz]

Possible glimmer of hope for 4 extra FD teams, Dundalk Fc meeting tonight with fans, it was suggested a 16 team PD could be on the cards............then again who knows, clubs not officially informed what the make up of the 2012 division yet.

Is there is any other country in world football that this could happen in? pre season and we 'think' the Premier div will be 12 teams, but no one really knows.

Possible glimmer of hope for the four A Championship clubs as well. I doubt there'd be talk of expanding the Premier if a few clubs weren't lined up to join the Premier. I'd imagine there will be discussions with clubs naturally at some stage? The option could be 16 PD & 8 FD or 12 PD & 12 FD?

[culloty82]

I'd imagine 12 and 12 is likely to come in anyway unless the 16-team Premier reports are confirmed. On a related note, I've shamelessly borrowed this from the WSC forum - perhaps a possible template for the League to follow? :

The latest on the never ending (and seemingly never going anywhere) attempts to restructure the game in Scotland. It is from a letter that was sent out from the SFA to the clubs.



League Restructuring and a Pyramid Structure for Scottish Football

At its meeting on 29th September,2011, the Professional Game Board agreed a five point plan to formally develop proposals for League restructuring: -

1.The merger of the Scottish Premier League and Scottish Football League to create a single league structure

2.An all through distribution model covering all 42 league clubs

3.The creation of an additional relegation / promotion place between the top division and the division below it

4.Enhanced parachute payments to soften the financial blow of relegation for clubs relegated out of the top division

5.A 'pyramid structure' that will open up access to SFL Division Three from below

Subsequent discussion by the Scottish FA Board of Directors, related to point 5 above, has reached broad consensus on the following "pyramid principles" -

•The creation of a new Scottish FA "Highland" and "Lowland" Super League structure immediately below the SFL Third Division, comprising clubs from the existing structures of Scottish Highland Football League, East of Scotland League, South of Scotland League and Scottish Junior FA

•Maintenance of the existing SHFL, ESL, SSL and SJFA League structures, immediately below the dual Super Leagues, with provision for existing Leagues to open membership to clubs within the Scottish Amateur FA

•Promotion and relegation based upon sporting merit and the achievement of "club" standards as defined by National Club Licensing and the Scottish FA Quality Mark system

ln order to formally progress the development of the key principles above, the Professional Game Board is requested to approve the following actions: -

•The commencement of formal consultation between the Scottish FA, SPL, SFL, Scottish Highland Football League, the East of Scotland League, the South of Scotland League and Scottish Junior FA regarding the composition and launch of a new dual "Super League" structure with effect from season 2014-15 (with club applications being sought from 2013-14)

•An internal review of the National Club Licensing and Scottish FA Quality Mark services and resource supporting the proposed pyramid structure

•The completion of a signed "Memorandum of Understanding" by all relevant League bodies and stakeholders giving formal commitment to the agreed principles of the new Pyramid Structure for Scottish Football

Stewart M. Regan
Chief Executive
October,2011

[Macy]

On top of this, he gives out absolute stink to clubs for not giving players more than 1 year contracts, and how they have to go on the dole over the Christmas holidays...I read it with a degree of 'what the fjuck'
As dodge has said, he was right about it not helping the clubs on the football side. However, again as others have said he didn't get into the why's. Maybe if the PFAI were more willing to compromise in past cases there might be clubs willing to offer multi year contracts. Doubt they'll be 52 week ones though, given we're essentially back to semi-pro payment levels, which doesn't really help solve his members problem though.

[legendz]

I'd imagine 12 and 12 is likely to come in anyway unless the 16-team Premier reports are confirmed. On a related note, I've shamelessly borrowed this from the WSC forum - perhaps a possible template for the League to follow? :

The latest on the never ending (and seemingly never going anywhere) attempts to restructure the game in Scotland. It is from a letter that was sent out from the SFA to the clubs.


Though I've discussed it, I've never really had much mass in a pyramid structure. I don't think it's do-able or an option. The LoI season is different to the junior/intermediate season. Is there a need for either to change?

Possibly down the road a third tier like the A Championship combining reserve teams and aspiring intermediate/junior clubs could be looked at again.

If the likes of Castlebar, Tullamore or anyone else wants to join the league in the next few years, they should join the U19 league first and work from there.

[Guinney]

It's a bloody joke that the structure of the league for next year isn't sorted out at this late stage. It should have been sorted out 6 months ago.
No one knows what is happening next season, all kinds of things been put out there (14/16/18 home league games, 12/16 team division). From going to the meeting in Oriel last night I came out with the impression that this is hindering not only Dundalks progress but every clubs progress.

It was mentioned that as the club doesn't know how many home games will be played next year and this creates a whole load of problems.

1) Firstly, season tickets can not be issued as it would be impossible to set a price when clubs don't know how many games will be played. Surely this needs to be sorted out weeks before Christmas, as it's a bumper time to sell season tickets.
2)Clubs need to set there budgets out if they want to start signing players. How many games you play in a season can affect how much revenue a club brings in and also maybe what size of a squad you need.
3)As a fan it would be nice to know and we wonder why people/barstoolers/even talented young Irish players think this is a Mickey Mouse League. These are just some of the complications that are created because of this lack of decision making.

I understand that the players may feel aggrieved that they don't get payed in the off season, but does Stephen McGuinness have any solutions to this problem. This is clubs finally facing reality after years of many overspending and also cut backs due to the recession.

[passerrby]

Ive spend a long time looking at all aspects of this and other leagues , players, etc pro and cons and my solution gets to the nub of the matter
1. eject the PFAI from abbotstown.
2. eject stephan mc Guinness from Ireland.
complicated but i think it would work.

[legendz]

I dont think there should be any promotion or relegation for at least three seasons. :cool:

Ye'll get the next best thing if the premier expands to 16. If there's only 8 in first division, I can't see there being any more than one down and one in a play-off.

[trevy]

John Delaney was on WLR local radio last week and said he didn't think there would be a 16 team premier division next season and would favour maybe a 14 team premier after that and regionalised first divisions. He said this would depend on licences of course. He also said he throught it was mad that there was 3 Galway teams in the league.

[culloty82]

Today's Kerryman reports that five clubs are applying for the new First Division licences - presumably Tralee, Carlow, Cobh and Fanad are four of the five, not sure what club would be strong enough to be the fifth. Also, an FAI convention will be held in early December to decide on the League format and clubs involved - does that mean an election based on the FAI's recommendations?

[Acornvilla]

Castlebar had a team didn't they, what about a new fingal? :D

[nigel-harps1954]

To be honest, I wouldn't put it past Letterkenny Rovers to have applied. They've been harbouring ambitions to play in the league for a long time now. Built a big new stand there this year and such. Would imagine one of them or Fanad will get a place, most likely being Fanad.

Cobh, Fanad, Carlow, Tralee and Castlebar sounds about right. A good spread of teams. A lot of travelling though.

[citybone]

hence why a regional 1st division would be a good idea. But it would help to have 12 teams in the 1st to have a regionalised system.

[nigel-harps1954]

Wouldn't go near a regionalised first division. Would really need 8 or 10 teams in each section to make it work and I don't think that'll happen. 6 teams to a division would be horrible. If the supposed 5 teams who have applied all get in that would be fantastic to see a 14 team first division with the possibility of a split after 2 rounds of games into top and bottom half. Top half go on and push for promotion and the bottom half play for First Division Cup or something to give them something to play for.

[legendz]

I'm surprised to hear mention of a 5th team. Thought at worst one of 4 would get a first division licence and at best 3 of the 4 with Tralee being one.

[harpstilidie]

To be honest, I wouldn't put it past Letterkenny Rovers to have applied. They've been harbouring ambitions to play in the league for a long time now. Built a big new stand there this year and such. Would imagine one of them or Fanad will get a place, most likely being Fanad.

Cobh, Fanad, Carlow, Tralee and Castlebar sounds about right. A good spread of teams. A lot of travelling though.

Have Letterkenny Rovers got floodlights? Don't think a regionalised 1st Division would work tbh.

[legendz]

I don't see why everyone is so sure about Castlebar. They aren't in the U19 league and pulled out of the A Championship. If there is a 5th team clearly they must have changed their minds or the FAI sounded out both Castlebar and Tullamore?

[culloty82]

I'm surprised to hear mention of a 5th team. Thought at worst one of 4 would get a first division licence and at best 3 of the 4 with Tralee being one.

The article did say that even though five have applied, only two would be chosen, but seeing as that means 11 teams, three would make more sense. Tralee just have to make sure they meet all the conditions, if all the applicants are on a par, you'd expect a regional spread of the teams getting licences.

[legendz]

I'd be surprised if it was only 2 unless first division clubs have gained a preference for a weekend off once in a while?! I've always felt Cobh will get the nod no matter what. I'd see as between Tralee and Carlow next unless Fanad and the unknown fifth club have done enough. With the history of decisions that have been made, I wouldn't rule anything in or out. Someone who feels they have a good chance have been known to be the ones to miss out and feel aggrieved.

[BonnieShels]

3 Galway teams and 3 Donegal teams in the first division next year? Awesome!

[nigel-harps1954]

About time we had a local league derby..

[Guitd]

Today's Kerryman reports that five clubs are applying for the new First Division licences - presumably Tralee, Carlow, Cobh and Fanad are four of the five, not sure what club would be strong enough to be the fifth. Also, an FAI convention will be held in early December to decide on the League format and clubs involved - does that mean an election based on the FAI's recommendations?

maybe its another galway team tuam? maybe athenry ? we could have our own little mini league over hear in galway

[BonnieShels]

About time we had a local league derby..

Sligo and Derry not enough... oh, wait!


maybe its another galway team tuam? maybe athenry ? we could have our own little mini league over hear in galway

If it goes regional, you will.

[Terry]

Was in westport at the weekend and they were talking about the first division licences also?

[Charlie Darwin]

I hope the mystery fifth team is Manchester United. An Irish club we can all get behind.

[OneForTheFuture]

I hope the mystery fifth team is Manchester United. An Irish club we can all get behind.

Talking thru your Hoop there Charles.......You surely mean Celtic, no?

[Macy]

John Delaney was on WLR local radio last week and said he didn't think there would be a 16 team premier division next season and would favour maybe a 14 team premier after that and regionalised first divisions. He said this would depend on licences of course. He also said he throught it was mad that there was 3 Galway teams in the league.
14 team league would surely be the worst possible outcome?

[Dodge]

14 team league would surely be the worst possible outcome?
Without being all 'legendz' about it, I'm having trouble trying to figure out how the seaosn would work.

26 games - play each other twice
39 games - play three times (7 teams getting one more home game than the rest)
38 games - play twice, split into 7/7 and then those 6 twice again

All three are horrible prospects

[cornflakes]

Without being all 'legendz' about it, I'm having trouble trying to figure out how the seaosn would work.

26 games - play each other twice
39 games - play three times (7 teams getting one more home game than the rest)
38 games - play twice, split into 7/7 and then those 6 twice again

All three are horrible prospects

Just play once after the split, it would give you 32 games, a small amount of games after the split would probably keep the run in interesting in the top and bottom half

[Dodge]

Still gives you 3 home games against some teams, 2 against others.