Stephen Ireland

[Eminence Grise]

Thanks, DI. I knew he'd broached it but couldn't recall to what extent.

[liamoo11]

I thought he came across better than normal. Was nice to hear him say he would like to get a chance to be involved in the world cup qualifiers. I hope he comes back just like i hope trap starts with a fresh slate for stokes and wilson as well

[DannyInvincible]

It's an interesting debate though; what do players actually owe us as supporters? Did his lies breach our support and trust, and did/does he therefore owe us an apology as well? His initial apology seemed directed towards his family and grandmothers primarily, rather than to fans for breaching our trust or whatever. It's difficult to say because I don't think an ordeal as personal as his girlfriend experiencing a miscarriage is any of our business. Besides, if he didn't want to play for Ireland, he was entitled not to. Being disruptive and disrespectful since with regard to the team we support naturally grated with fans, but if he's prepared to put that behind him and give his all for the team, is it a bit much to expect another apology?

[Predator]

I'd have him back. The only concern I'd have would be how much, if at all, it would affect the team.

[bennocelt]

It's difficult to say because I don't think an ordeal as personal as his girlfriend experiencing a miscarriage is any of our business. Besides, if he didn't want to play for Ireland, he was entitled not to. Being disruptive and disrespectful since with regard to the team we support naturally grated with fans, but if he's prepared to put that behind him and give his all for the team, is it a bit much to expect another apology?

Exactly, its only a game at the end of the day.........

[theworm2345]

It's an interesting debate though; what do players actually owe us as supporters? Did his lies breach our support and trust, and did/does he therefore owe us an apology as well? His initial apology seemed directed towards his family and grandmothers primarily, rather than to fans for breaching our trust or whatever. It's difficult to say because I don't think an ordeal as personal as his girlfriend experiencing a miscarriage is any of our business. Besides, if he didn't want to play for Ireland, he was entitled not to. Being disruptive and disrespectful since with regard to the team we support naturally grated with fans, but if he's prepared to put that behind him and give his all for the team, is it a bit much to expect another apology?
As I said before, to the fans, no he doesn't. But to all of his teammates, people in the FAI, and the coaches he may as well have ****ed upon following the granny business, yes. You noted his apology but that was only to his grannies and his family. I don't know that he owes any apology for that, but that was not the last incident. Again I don't think he owes anything to the fans but there are others who didn't deserve the treatment they got from him.

[geysir]

Read his lips.
He is still stuck at the point where he wants to be called first by the FAI, then and only then will he mull over the invitation to return.
Nothing has changed.
Not even a 'I will return if called', 'I would consider it an honour if I was called'.

[Charlie Darwin]

He has to take responsibility, too, for the granny story. Maybe he was emotionally immature at 21, but he had an agent to advise him, and there’s no way that an FAI press officer wouldn’t have advised him to plead personal circumstances – the media here, generally, are sensible enough to know when to leave a story alone if it has little public interest.
Really?

1863

The media didn't treat Ireland with the basic respect his circumstances deserved. All they cared about was that this player had deserted their precious team - the precious team they would ruthlessly slag off at any opportunity they got - and ask themselves why, oh why, would this spoiled footballer put the privacy of his own family at a moment of untold tragedy when there's something as vital as a football match to be played.

[Eminence Grise]

I don't know whether the headline or your posting it to prove a point is more prurient, Charlie! I'm not even sure what it says about you that you have that image at your immediate disposal!;)

The media didn't treat SI with respect. Very true. Because he lied to them. Jesus wept, the first thing I teach my PR students (some of who have worked for the FAI) is that if you lie to the journalists (my other students) they will crucify you, and you can't complain because you've brought it on yourself. As for their 'precious team' there's been enough negative stuff written by a host of hacks to hole that argument below the waterline.

BTW, it wasn't the Star that broke that news story and brought it into the public domain. It was a court case - and a matter of public record - of an incident regarding a couple who, iirc, met online and agreed to some pretty weird stuff. Galtung and Ruge's list of news values make it newsworthy by dint of personfication (relating to specific persons) and negativity. SI's initial story would be newsworthy for its unexpectedness (withdrawal, then the changing story), having an elite person involved, the number of people concerned (fans) and its meaningfulness to them. Had he withdrawn for unspecified personal reasons, and the FAI briefed the media off the record, it would never have blown up because it would have concerned only his and his partner's families. As is right and proper.

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't know whether the headline or your posting it to prove a point is more prurient, Charlie! I'm not even sure what it says about you that you have that image at your immediate disposal!;)
It's permanently imprinted on my brain :(


The media didn't treat SI with respect. Very true. Because he lied to them. Jesus wept, the first thing I teach my PR students (some of who have worked for the FAI) is that if you lie to the journalists (my other students) they will crucify you, and you can't complain because you've brought it on yourself.
Sorry, this is nonsense. Nobody tells the truth to journalists, especially not footballers, but even so this is a special case. It's not the fact that the miscarriage was made public - it kind of had to be after the granny story was exposed - but the way he's been villified since. Granted, he hasn't helped himself, but the callousness with which people speak out one of the most traumatic events in anybody's life is disgusting. He was obviously an immature boy who felt trapped and didn't know what to do. How people can't see that and give him the tiniest benefit of the doubt depresses me.


As for their 'precious team' there's been enough negative stuff written by a host of hacks to hole that argument below the waterline.
I was being facetious. Journalists care about the team only when it suits them.


BTW, it wasn't the Star that broke that news story and brought it into the public domain. It was a court case - and a matter of public record - of an incident regarding a couple who, iirc, met online and agreed to some pretty weird stuff. Galtung and Ruge's list of news values make it newsworthy by dint of personfication (relating to specific persons) and negativity. SI's initial story would be newsworthy for its unexpectedness (withdrawal, then the changing story), having an elite person involved, the number of people concerned (fans) and its meaningfulness to them. Had he withdrawn for unspecified personal reasons, and the FAI briefed the media off the record, it would never have blown up because it would have concerned only his and his partner's families. As is right and proper.
It doesn't matter how the story broke, only that the newspaper chose to lead with it as a front page splash - clearly they're not sensible enough to know when to leave a story alone because, at the heart of it, they're all searching for the most sensational story to shift units. I'm not saying Ireland's behaviour didn't attract attention or make the story newsworthy, just that the media acted appallingly in the aftermath.

[geysir]

The media treatment is a non issue at this stage imo. I think you (Charlie) assume too much as to how SI must have felt.
Media interviews since, indicate that even SI realises that he brought on the ott ridicule by his own actions and has apologised profusely for those actions. I don't get the part where he has been traumatised by the media treatment around those events, indeed he doesn't mention at all being victimised and he has embraced the media since in a way that demonstrates clearly the lack of lingering trauma.
Those actions, running away from the squad, making up those stories and the media ridicule, are a non-issue now.
It's his actions towards Trapattoni since, reveal other less desirable characteristic traits. If he didn't want to face up to returning to the squad fair enough, but he engaged in a tissue of lies and innuendo towards Trap and others.
Even at this stage, he states that he will only consider a return, if asked first.

[Eminence Grise]

Nobody tells the truth to journalists, especially not footballers,

Sorry Charlie, I've studied, worked in and taught PR for 16 years and I can't even begin to tell you how wide you are of the mark. You're too polarised in this. Media ethics - like any professional ethics - aren't black or white. I have little time for Ger Colleran, and think he's dragged the Star below what's acceptable many times (remember the Star calling Fingleton and Seanie Fitz 'bas**rds' on its front page a couple of years back? Even if true, was it fit for print?) I don't agree that the media acted appallingly towards SI: they showed a lack of sensitivity, but they pursued a valid news story. They've also given him ample opportunity to explain himself subsequently - which he appears glad to have had opportunities to do. Hardly the actions of a vindictive press corps, or an anguished victim of media intrusion.

As long as he seeks media interviews, and prolongs whatever issues he has with Trappatoni and the team, he'll remain newsworthy. Taking up what Geysir says, these are the issus that need to be addressed. And to start the ball rolling, he needs to get down off his high horse and make himself available.

Edit
I didn't get the facetious tone when you wrote about the 'precious team' - I do now! Cheers!

[bennocelt]

I have little time for Ger Colleran, and think he's dragged the Star below what's acceptable many times (remember the Star calling Fingleton and Seanie Fitz 'bas**rds' on its front page a couple of years back? Even if true, was it fit for print?)


If its what most people are thinking then why not.

[Manblue]

Sorry Charlie, I've studied, worked in and taught PR for 16 years and I can't even begin to tell you how wide you are of the mark. You're too polarised in this. Media ethics - like any professional ethics - aren't black or white. I have little time for Ger Colleran, and think he's dragged the Star below what's acceptable many times (remember the Star calling Fingleton and Seanie Fitz 'bas**rds' on its front page a couple of years back? Even if true, was it fit for print?) I don't agree that the media acted appallingly towards SI: they showed a lack of sensitivity, but they pursued a valid news story. They've also given him ample opportunity to explain himself subsequently - which he appears glad to have had opportunities to do. Hardly the actions of a vindictive press corps, or an anguished victim of media intrusion.

As long as he seeks media interviews, and prolongs whatever issues he has with Trappatoni and the team, he'll remain newsworthy. Taking up what Geysir says, these are the issus that need to be addressed. And to start the ball rolling, he needs to get down off his high horse and make himself available.

Edit
I didn't get the facetious tone when you wrote about the 'precious team' - I do now! Cheers!

Given your vast experience I'm surprised you think he seeks interviews to be honest.

[geysir]

If its what most people are thinking then why not.

The bigger problem with this type of banner headline tabloid reporting is when it's not true.

[CraftyToePoke]

Until then I'd boo every touch he had if I was at a match.

I'd say there would be plenty booing and it would then fall to him to win them over in time. Then we would see how much he actually wanted to represent Ireland, and how much of this is his career needing the International football stage more than it perhaps did a few years ago, when we actually needed his talents a lot more than we now do. He wasn't bothered then about our country. I am cynical about him, some of his interviews have ranged from unhelpful to disruptive in his absence.

[DannyInvincible]

Given your vast experience I'm surprised you think he seeks interviews to be honest.

Is someone compelling him to give interviews?

[Eminence Grise]

Given your vast experience I'm surprised you think he seeks interviews to be honest.

Maybe he just seeks interviews to be dishonest?:D

Grammar-based gags aside, I'd never try to second-guess your intentions.;)

[bennocelt]

The bigger problem with this type of banner headline tabloid reporting is when it's not true.

But when its true?

[geysir]

But when its true?
What's truth? if it's 20% accurate? the story headline is not selected for accuracy purposes, it's perspective with a motive to attract readers.
Damage is done long before the whole story emerges.
Not unlike Dunphy, whose motive is to be ott censorious, not to be rational.

With SI, why did he not tell the truth of the matter in the first place? the problem was/is that he felt compelled to lie about the situation.
Your dog has died, but instead you weave a story that your cat has died.
Whatever the internal complexes involved with that tendency, the aftermath for years with SI, involves a web of continuing denials and blame. It's no wonder when Trap met him that afterwards he left him well alone, pretty much saying he's immature, complex and fragile. Unfortunately for us from a talent perspective, he's still stuck in weaving some story that he will only 'consider' returning and only after he's been asked.

[Stuttgart88]

He can be forgiven for spinning the lie in the first place. That's no biggy as far as I'm concerned, we all make dumb mistakes.

What SI needs to do is to reconcile his "Trap is arrogant and treated me with disrespect", "I'm glad I've retired from international football" and "I feel nothing for the national team" remarks with his recent "I'll be watching on TV and kicking every ball" and "when the question comes I'll consider it" comments.

It takes nothing to realise that the ball is in his court to rectify these inconsistencies.

It's also quite simple. Two of his team mates are Trap's quasi-captains. An approach can easily be manufactured and it can be spelt out to SI exactly what he needs to do. Spouting nonsense either directly or by his missus is not that.

I'd have him back quite simply because the more options we have the better, and because this whole episode is tiresome. There's nothing to say that he'd even make the squad let alone the team. McCarthy, McClean and Coleman are barely in the squad, and within a year or so you'd expect the likes of Murray, Mason and Hendrick to be pushing hard. Hoolahan might even figure in WC14 campaign according to Tardelli.

[Murfinator]

I'm a month removed from twenty one and I can't understand ever lying about that regardless of the situation...maybe I could have forgiven him after that too but its not exactly the last incident he's been involved in in relation to the national team. I will never accept him back until he apologizes to the team, to Stan, to the FAI, to Trap, etc...to the fans would be nice as well but I rarely believe a player truly owes the fans anything. Until then I'd boo every touch he had if I was at a match.

This is the kind of nonsense that gives soccer supporters the reputation they have. You'd boo your own player over a feeling of injustice in an incident you know precious little about?

[Murfinator]

i said more or less the same thing on here a couple of months ago and people were saying that he prob made up the miscarraige aswell. don't think a lot of people would ever accept him in green again

In addition to the miscarriage if people knew his father and the kind of upbringing he had I think they'd be more understanding as to the kind of insecure individual he's become. It's not appropriate to go into more detail on that on a web forum but it's worth understanding that his childhood and upbringing has affected his rationality as an adult. People assume many things about him based on his eccentricity and inconsistent remarks, most of them wide of the mark.

[Stuttgart88]

I think the bigger ssue is the sheer disrespect he has shown towards the team. He hasn't just said international football isn't for him and he'd like to focus on his club career. Instead he has continuously spouted a load of nonsense that has rightly irked many parties.

I'd probably forgive and move on if he just said sorry and admitted he was wrong and would like to change his mind. However, any standard of decency demands that he can't expect the FAI and Trap to come calling first. This is regardless of his upbringing. Stephen Ireland is not the wronged party in this argument.

If he's serious about returning he should let Dunne and Given know and they can intermediate. He can be told what he needs to say and if he can't say it he clearly doesn't want it.

Can he play left back? :)

[bennocelt]

What's truth? if it's 20% accurate? the story headline is not selected for accuracy purposes, it's perspective with a motive to attract readers..

Even if its 100% true! (again!)
http://www.financialdirector.co.uk/IMG/765/134765/dailystarireland.jpg?1290771137

[theworm2345]

This is the kind of nonsense that gives soccer supporters the reputation they have. You'd boo your own player over a feeling of injustice in an incident you know precious little about?
This has nothing to do with the miscarriage/granny incident, as I wrote on the last page if that was the only incident I could've welcomed him back a long time ago. No, I'd boo him because he's an arrogant, narcissistic, egotistic (etc.) chav **** who has constantly basically spit upon the team I support...however I might be able to at least be able to tolerate him if he apologized (to the FAI, team, etc.) for all the **** (which Stutts pointed out above) and showed some sort of dedication/effort. The thought of him playing over a player who truly wants to play to Ireland, even if less skilled, turns my stomach.

[elroy]

IF trap wants him in the team post the euros then I will support the decision.

SI is certainly not deserving of a place, purely based on form, that he wouldve been a couple of years ago when he was one of the bright lights in the EPL.

My concern is if he came back, how much discontent would he cause? And also Im not sure I could trust him to stick around, whos to say he wouldnt feck off again!?! Thats up to him to prove.

[gastric]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRqEXkRfSSWn2PWvoxRm5rQB5C4B9YEj PoYa3NJw8zXzZ_jslNK



Stephen looks a bit like Dustin. As he seemingly wants to go can we send him as a mascot? Problem solved.

[Murfinator]

This has nothing to do with the miscarriage/granny incident, as I wrote on the last page if that was the only incident I could've welcomed him back a long time ago. No, I'd boo him because he's an arrogant, narcissistic, egotistic (etc.) chav **** who has constantly basically spit upon the team I support...however I might be able to at least be able to tolerate him if he apologized (to the FAI, team, etc.) for all the **** (which Stutts pointed out above) and showed some sort of dedication/effort. The thought of him playing over a player who truly wants to play to Ireland, even if less skilled, turns my stomach.

If in the hypothetical situation he was playing for us then surely he'd have made his peace with the FAI and Trap to an extent that they are happy to call him up? If you don't agree with his call up for the reasons you mentioned then surely your bile should be directed at those making that decision rather than Ireland?

[Manblue]

Don't think he'll fancy the championship next season,

[theworm2345]

If in the hypothetical situation he was playing for us then surely he'd have made his peace with the FAI and Trap to an extent that they are happy to call him up? If you don't agree with his call up for the reasons you mentioned then surely your bile should be directed at those making that decision rather than Ireland?
Its hard to say. We all know the FAI will do pretty much anything for a little money, so if they believed that bringing him back would put people in the Aviva then they'd probably let bygones be bygones. As elroy pointed out above though, that wouldn't prove anything other than that the FAI are money-grubbers and I'd still have no reason to believe Ireland wouldn't just up and walk out on a whim. Trap bringing him in might be a little different, though what if he is brought in after Trap is gone (who knows when) and its some manager who has little knowledge of the situation, that could also be problematic.

[tetsujin1979]

ehhh, Ireland wins the supporter's player of the season in the Aston Villa end of season awards

[Charlie Darwin]

Trap out!

[Olé Olé]

In addition to the miscarriage if people knew his father and the kind of upbringing he had I think they'd be more understanding as to the kind of insecure individual he's become. It's not appropriate to go into more detail on that on a web forum but it's worth understanding that his childhood and upbringing has affected his rationality as an adult. People assume many things about him based on his eccentricity and inconsistent remarks, most of them wide of the mark.

I was chatting to a lad from Cobh on a night out there a year or two back and he gave me the same impression. He referred to a troubled upbringing and the effect the break-up of his parent's relationship had on him and how the petulance and irrationality we sometimes see from Ireland was even more at large during his youth.

That said, he's made it this far and he is massively talented. Football and celebrity status tend to bring the worst out in a lot of people and Ireland is a prime example.

The thing about his more recent comments is that he hasn't positively said that he wants to bury the hatchet, apologize for past misdemeanours and endeavour to perform to his best for Ireland, should he ever regain the privilege and opportunity.

I agree that using Dunne and Given to facilitate his return is the best manner. If they are unwilling to accept him into the fold, as two of the best (if not the best) current servants for the national side, then nobody will.

Not really sure whether I'm in favour of Ireland ever returning either.

[gustavo]

I was chatting to a lad from Cobh on a night out there a year or two back and he gave me the same impression. He referred to a troubled upbringing and the effect the break-up of his parent's relationship had on him and how the petulance and irrationality we sometimes see from Ireland was even more at large during his youth.

That said, he's made it this far and he is massively talented. Football and celebrity status tend to bring the worst out in a lot of people and Ireland is a prime example.

The thing about his more recent comments is that he hasn't positively said that he wants to bury the hatchet, apologize for past misdemeanours and endeavour to perform to his best for Ireland, should he ever regain the privilege and opportunity.

I agree that using Dunne and Given to facilitate his return is the best manner. If they are unwilling to accept him into the fold, as two of the best (if not the best) current servants for the national side, then nobody will.

Not really sure whether I'm in favour of Ireland ever returning either.

That kind of reasoned and balanced post has no place on this forum!

[geysir]

IF trap wants him in the team post the euros then I will support the decision.

SI is certainly not deserving of a place, purely based on form, that he wouldve been a couple of years ago when he was one of the bright lights in the EPL.

My concern is if he came back, how much discontent would he cause? And also Im not sure I could trust him to stick around, whos to say he wouldnt feck off again!?! Thats up to him to prove.
It's difficult for him to prove that he won't féck off again until he makes himself available and turn up if called.
If he was mature enough to do that, I think it would work and I seriously doubt if issues would arise with the other players. He would be a talented footballer in most teams, football ability earns some respect.
We have had plenty of dysfunctional players who were treated leniently/given leeway, but they wanted to play.

In that interview of sorts with Trap on Sunday, he has kicked SI well into touch by saying more or less that 'we have McCarthy, we are preparing McCarthy we make promises of sorts to McCarthy, how can I turn around and say to McCarthy in the next campaign to go away home, for him (SI)'
I wonder if Trap spat into a spitoon when saying "for him".

[elroy]

It's difficult for him to prove that he won't féck off again until he makes himself available and turn up if called.
If he was mature enough to do that, I think it would work and I seriously doubt if issues would arise with the other players. He would be a talented footballer in most teams, football ability earns some respect.
We have had plenty of dysfunctional players who were treated leniently/given leeway, but they wanted to play.

In that interview of sorts with Trap on Sunday, he has kicked SI well into touch by saying more or less that 'we have McCarthy, we are preparing McCarthy we make promises of sorts to McCarthy, how can I turn around and say to McCarthy in the next campaign to go away home, for him (SI)'
I wonder if Trap spat into a spitoon when saying "for him".


Nice to hear Trap speak positive of McCarthy for a change. Surely if James is the future in Traps eyes, he has to go to the Euros, even if just as a squad player.

[geysir]

I think it also means that Trap still sees McCarthy as playing a more roving advanced role for us at midfield than he does at Wigan. That James is the man for whatever role Trap would envisage for SI.

[Stuttgart88]

Now I know how the Koran has so many interpretations.

[geysir]

:)
But unlike me, the problem there and with other texts is that they claim to have the one and true interpretation.

[Charlie Darwin]

Honour thy father and thy mother, but not so much thy grandmother.

[Manblue]

Anyone else in favour of putting this thread to bed,at least until after the Euros.

Just seems to go round in circles when there is more pressing issues at hand.

[DannyInvincible]

It's only chatter on a discussion forum. What duties should we be performing otherwise that we're currently neglecting?

[Crosby87]

Well, with only 6 weeks to go someone has to make an in depth preview of the Croatian team.

[Murfinator]

http://www.birminghampost.net/midlands-birmingham-sport/west-midlands-sports/aston-villa-fc/2012/05/03/player-of-the-year-stephen-ireland-fit-to-repay-aston-villa-fans-faith-65233-30890029/

Ireland believes his award has transformed him from zero to hero in the villa supporters eyes. I wonder will that give him confidence of changing the Irish folks view of him. :rolleyes:

Of note is the paraphrased comment "Ireland insists the support he has received from fans this season has prompted his surge in confidence." showing what a fragile psyche he has. If he were to return to Ireland, get booed and then dropped you feel that it could destroy him, which is perhaps where part of the fear comes from.

[Deckydee]

Wanted by Mark Hughes at QPR.

Played his best ever football under him

[Crosby87]

Yup. http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/4380832/Stephen-Ireland-transfer-Mark-Hughes-wants-another-bad-boy-at-QPR.html

Would Sparky urge him to return to the Boys in Green?

[tetsujin1979]

Typical Hughes signing, a player he's worked with before.
So far he's signed Bellamy twice (Blackburn and Liverpool) as well as working with him at Wales
Roque Santa Cruz twice (Blackburn and City)
earlier this week I read QPR had been linked with Shay Given and Andy Johnson, City and Blackburn respectively

For what it's worth, Ireland would be better off working with Lambert

[brine3]

Yeah, he'd be better off staying with Lambert. Sparky's teams are always rough and tumble affairs.

[Murfinator]

QPR looks like the most unstable ship imaginable, he'd be mad to leave villa when things are finally starting to look up.