League of Ireland in Europe 2014

[Charlie Darwin]

Certainly a big if. I don't see Legia being booted out based on the Debrecen case from 2010. Debrecen were 4-1 up when they fielded Peter Mate for the final three minutes of stoppage time in a tie against Litex Lovech. UEFA ruled that Debrecen had "no interest in fielding this player for the three last minutes of additional time, when the score was so clearly in its favour" and fined them £15,000 rather than disqualifying them. With Legia already 6-1 up, I don't see UEFA going against a precedent like that.
If Celtic can argue that the precedent goes against the letter of the law, they could have a case. The law book seems clear - a 3-0 walkover for Celtic.

[pineapple stu]

Hull have scraped by Trencin of Slovakia, 2-1 on aggregate. They were losing on away goals till the 80th minute tonight. Trencin only made their European debut last year. Puts the English league in a bit of context; the smaller English clubs to qualify have tended to struggle. Millwall, Wigan, Birmingham, Portsmouth - none have gotten out of the group stage.

[Charlie Darwin]

Good effort from Aberdeen. Were leading 2-1 on the night against Sociedad but needed two more and eventually conceded two late goals. Niall McGinn, Willo Flood and Johnny Hayes all started, and Adam Rooney was a second-half substitute.

[red bellied]

Greek side Asteras Tripoli knocked out FSV Mainz 05 beating them three one on the night. Watched the last few minutes on satellite, the camera had close ups of the visiting fans from Mainz in the last few minutes, they looked fairly desperate and a lot of them were close to tears. The Asteras players celebrated at the end like they won the world cup while three or four of the Mainz players went down to behind the goal to explain their selves to the fans and were met by plenty of abuse. Linfield knocked out a Greek side last year so maybe some sort of comparison there.

[DannyInvincible]

If Celtic can argue that the precedent goes against the letter of the law, they could have a case. The law book seems clear - a 3-0 walkover for Celtic.

How often does stuff like this happen in European competition? Seems incredible to think that such embarrassing amateurism can still occur in the modern age of information. Even Arsenal brought Ryo Miyaichi to Munich in the Champions League last year and had to name a reduced bench of six players after realising before kick-off that he wasn't actually eligible to play in the competition. It's also extraordinary that this could potentially be the second time in three or four years that Celtic might benefit from such a c*ck-up.

Does the rule-book say Celtic should be awarded the match 3-0 or the overall tie? Either way, they'd still go through. If awarded just the match 3-0, that would bring the aggregate score back to 4-4 and, of course, they'd have the away goal from Warsaw.

[DannyInvincible]

Grant Russell on Twitter saying that the Debrecen "precedent" wouldn't actually apply as Peter Mate was ineligible rather than suspended on that occasion: https://twitter.com/STVGrant/status/497462955366436864


Many citing example of Debrecen fined for ineligible player. Rule differs. That player wasn't banned. If a player plays banned = forfeit.

Looks like Legia might be in very big trouble then, after all.

It does seem unusual that the punishment for fielding an ineligible player would differ so much from the punishment for fielding a suspended player. Weren't Sion kicked out in 2011 for fielding ineligible players though?

[Charlie Darwin]

How often does stuff like this happen in European competition? Seems incredible to think that such embarrassing amateurism can still occur in the modern age of information. Even Arsenal brought Ryo Miyaichi to Munich in the Champions League last year and had to name a reduced bench of six players after realising before kick-off that he wasn't actually eligible to play in the competition. It's also extraordinary that this could potentially be the second time in three or four years that Celtic might benefit from such a c*ck-up.

Does the rule-book say Celtic should be awarded the match 3-0 or the overall tie? Either way, they'd still go through. If awarded just the match 3-0, that would bring the aggregate score back to 4-4 and, of course, they'd have the away goal from Warsaw.
A match may be declared forfeit if a player who is ineligible under the regulations
of the competition concerned participates in the match, as long as the opposing
team files a protest. 4 The consequences of a match being declared forfeit are as follows:
a) the team forfeiting the match is deemed to have lost 3-0 (5-0 in futsal
competitions), unless the actual result is less favourable to the member
association or club at fault, in which case that result stands;

http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/uefaorg/UEFACompDisCases/02/11/23/49/2112349_DOWNLOAD.pdf

[DannyInvincible]

Have you read the relevant regulations in the rule-book, Charlie? Are they somewhere in here?: http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/competitions/Regulations/01/79/68/69/1796869_DOWNLOAD.pdf

Or can you point me to where I can have a look?

Edit: Ha, cheers! I was having a look there as I was posting and hadn't seen your post until I re-loaded the thread.

[DannyInvincible]

A match may be declared forfeit if a player who is ineligible under the regulations
of the competition concerned participates in the match, as long as the opposing
team files a protest. 4 The consequences of a match being declared forfeit are as follows:
a) the team forfeiting the match is deemed to have lost 3-0 (5-0 in futsal
competitions), unless the actual result is less favourable to the member
association or club at fault, in which case that result stands;

http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/uefaorg/UEFACompDisCases/02/11/23/49/2112349_DOWNLOAD.pdf

Article 21.3, which you've quoted, refers to fielding an ineligible player and states the game may be declared forfeit. The much less ambiguous Article 21.2 will apply in the Legia-Celtic case as Bereszyńsk was suspended rather than ineligible:


A match is declared forfeit if a player who has been suspended following a disciplinary decision participates in the match.

[PartySaint]

If UEFA were fair they'd kick Legia out of Europe, deduct Dundalk 10 points and relegate Shels to the LSL

[Charlie Darwin]

Article 21.3, which you've quoted, refers to fielding an ineligible player and states the game may be declared forfeit. The much less ambiguous Article 21.2 will apply in the Legia-Celtic case as Bereszyńsk was suspended rather than ineligible:
Sorry, I thought I'd quoted that!

[jinxy lilywhite]

If UEFA were fair they'd kick Legia out of Europe, deduct Dundalk 10 points and relegate Shels to the LSL


WTF did we do :cool:. Would love pats to play an extra two European matches in the business end of the season

PS love the bitchy fight back from Celtic heads. They may beat a lot club 99 times out of a hundred but one chance is all you need.

[Charlie Darwin]

PS love the bitchy fight back from Celtic heads. They may beat a lot club 99 times out of a hundred but one chance is all you need.
Or in Pats' case, Celtic would beat them 50 times out of 100.

[ger121]

Sion in 2011 and now Legia in 2014. Celtic really do lead a charmed life. Why does this stuff never happen to our clubs!

[DannyInvincible]

Sion in 2011 and now Legia in 2014. Celtic really do lead a charmed life.

It's the luck of the Irish, innit...

[osarusan]

It seems that the player in question missed an earlier qualifying round, and then first leg of the Celtic tie, making three games.

But according to another forum, it's not just a matter of missing three games - they player has to be registered for the game/tournament in order for the missed games to count as a ban being served. I have no idea how accurate that is though.

EDIT: UEFA report seems to verify it.

http://www.uefa.org/disciplinary/news/newsid=1845491.html

[pineapple stu]

Exactly why Brian Mooney couldn't play for us against Velbazhd Kyustendil in 2000. Bohs made that same mistake and forgot to register him while suspended. We spotted the problem; no sympathy for Legia.

[Nailor]

If the player in question wasn't registered to play against Pat's, surely they have a case to take Celtic's place in the Europa play off ??

[ger121]

http://www.thescore.ie/celtic-back-in-champions-league-1609824-Aug2014/

Looks like they're back in and would of course be seeded.

[osarusan]

If the player in question wasn't registered to play against Pat's, surely they have a case to take Celtic's place in the Europa play off ??

huh? He didn't play against Pats.

[DannyInvincible]

If the player in question wasn't registered to play against Pat's, surely they have a case to take Celtic's place in the Europa play off ??

How so? That the player wasn't registered when Legia played Pat's simply means that he wasn't serving his ban. As a result, the Pat's games did not have the effect of diminishing his three-match ban. Only once they registered him (before the Celtic game) did he commence the serving of his ban. And the punishment for fielding a suspended player isn't expulsion from competition anyway; rather, the match concerned is declared forfeit.

[Nailor]

How so? That the player wasn't registered when Legia played Pat's simply means that he wasn't serving his ban. As a result, the Pat's games did not have the effect of diminishing his three-match ban. Only once they registered him (before the Celtic game) did he commence the serving of his ban. And the punishment for fielding a suspended player isn't expulsion from competition anyway; rather, the match concerned is declared forfeit.


Sorry, the way it's wrtten on balls seems to suggest he played the last four minutes against Pat's, my bad :)

[ger121]

I bet Legia wished they'd scored one of those penalties now

[desaintsno.12]

it would have been hilarious if Celtic got the 3-0 and still got knocked out.

[Mr A]

I'm hearing Maribor have been kicked out of the Champion's League after drawing Celtic in the next round.

[ArdeeBhoy]

No Apostrophe!
;)

[Mr A]

And surprisingly few champions.

[Yossarian]

I feel sorry for Legia after they thoroughly deserved to be through based on their performance in the pitch but to get something like this wrong us such a poor mistake to make. As for Celtic, they were absolutely woeful and don't deserve the reprieve at all.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye, but been like that for years. There UEFA really are to blame.

And for the record, Celtic got lucky. They didn't deserve to get through, but lost out to UEFA in the past too. Karma and all that.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I feel sorry for Legia after they thoroughly deserved to be through based on their performance in the pitch but to get something like this wrong us such a poor mistake to make. As for Celtic, they were absolutely woeful and don't deserve the reprieve at all.
Except they played a banned player...their fault. No-one else's.

[Dodge]

They didn't deserve to get through, but lost out to UEFA in the past too. Karma and all that.

When's that?

[Couch Potato]

Whilst technically the competition rules have been breached decisions like this are just wrong and ulimately highlight everything that is wrong with the game now. Money is the major motivator as everyone knows, the spirit of the game and fair play just doesn't factor anymore. Celtic were easily beaten by a better team over two legs not just a once off lucky result and should not be re-instated. Unfortunately this is the way big business and football are now.

[Sheridan]

Can we stop polluting the LOI forum with this crap? There's an SPL thread for Tim Talk.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ha ha and check yer football history Dodge. Unlike some, know you're capable of finding it out.

[geysir]

Stjarnan pulled it off against Lech Poznan, I thought they would get pumped but in fact the game was much easier to handle than the home tie.
After the final whistle the Poznan fans gave a whole hearted, memorable tribute to Stjarnan (in yellow), who to begin with, were a bit cautious about milking it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wN_axjgQAc#t=116

[Flexy]

Stjarnan pulled it off against Lech Poznan, I thought they would get pumped but in fact the game was much easier to handle than the home tie.
After the final whistle the Poznan fans gave a whole hearted, memorable tribute to Stjarnan (in yellow), who to begin with, were a bit cautious about milking it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wN_axjgQAc#t=116
Great draw for Stjarnan in playing Inter Milan

[seand]

Like Dodge I'm relatively au fait with my anorak-y football history, but I'm struggling for a time when Celtic "lost out to UEFA" ....

[Titan]

Would it be around 1985 when they beat rapid Vienna and then were forced to replay the game at old Trafford after one of their fans attacked a rapid player? That's all I can think of.

[DannyInvincible]

Aye, that was in 1984: http://sport.stv.tv/football/125442-celtic-v-rapid-vienna-in-1984-bottle-throwing-and-replays/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsIWOApNf6s

Whilst there were items being thrown on the pitch from the stands, a Rapid player played the victim of a missile attack that never was and UEFA ordered a replay in Old Trafford. To be fair, I do think UEFA made a harsh and unusual call on that occasion. We'd been discussing it here (http://foot.ie/threads/192060-Champions-League-2014-5?p=1771469&viewfull=1#post1771469) in the Champions League 2014-15 thread.

[dundalkfc10]

Like Dodge I'm relatively au fait with my anorak-y football history, but I'm struggling for a time when Celtic "lost out to UEFA" ....

Forced to Replay a game against Vienna when a fan attacked one of their players.
Numerous fines

The "Uefa Cup" final against "cheating" Porto

[DannyInvincible]

Numerous fines

What did the fines relate to? The Rapid Vienna game?

[dundalkfc10]

What did the fines relate to? The Rapid Vienna game?

Milan game last year, fine for a display which they claimed was political yet let Barca away with having Catalan flags and a msg about their right to freedom the following week.
Europa League game in France the year before for an anti Uefa banner
Plenty more for pyro

Im sure I could go on and on

[MeathDrog]

Milan game last year, fine for a display which they claimed was political yet let Barca away with having Catalan flags and a msg about their right to freedom the following week.
Europa League game in France the year before for an anti Uefa banner
Plenty more for pyro

Im sure I could go on and on

The poor things.

[DannyInvincible]

Milan game last year, fine for a display which they claimed was political yet let Barca away with having Catalan flags and a msg about their right to freedom the following week.
Europa League game in France the year before for an anti Uefa banner
Plenty more for pyro

Im sure I could go on and on

But those incidents are all against UEFA rules, which Celtic voluntarily sign up to when they enter UEFA competition. They're not indicative of an anti-Celtic bias. Lots of clubs are punished or fined for similar reasons; not just Celtic.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

Get out of it. The worlds against them. That's why they haven't won the last 25 Champions Leagues.

[dundalkfc10]

But those incidents are all against UEFA rules, which Celtic voluntarily sign up to when they enter UEFA competition. They're not indicative of an anti-Celtic bias. Lots of clubs are punished or fined for similar reasons; not just Celtic.

The point people were making is Celtic have never been punished by Uefa.

The incidents of both Sion and Leiga were against UEFA rules, that both boluntarily signed upto when they entered the tournament, so they have rightly been banned (Sion as per rules) and lost 3-0 (Leiga as per rules)

[DannyInvincible]

The point people were making is Celtic have never been punished by Uefa.

The incidents of both Sion and Leiga were against UEFA rules, that both boluntarily signed upto when they entered the tournament, so they have rightly been banned (Sion as per rules) and lost 3-0 (Leiga as per rules)

If you have a look back to the origin of the discussion, you'll see that people were questioning the following notion: that Celtic haven't had the rub of the green, as it were, over the years when it comes to UEFA (as if they've often had to put up with some form of institutional unfair treatment or bias), thus justifying the good fortune of which they were beneficiaries in the past week.

The Rapid Vienna from 1984 example is fair enough - the punishment of demanding an Old Trafford replay of their 3-0 win in Celtic Park seems odd and unusually harsh - but that's just one example. I've not been able to find any other examples where UEFA have given Celtic a raw deal. I'm not necessarily saying they don't exist; I just haven't seen the evidence yet.

Sion and Legia have nothing to do with this; they knew the rules and were rightly punished, is right.

[Mr A]

At this stage I think we've wandered far enough from any tenuous link to LOI involvement in Europe. If people feel the need to further discuss Celtic it's best to take it to the SPL thread. (http://foot.ie/threads/28672-SPL-Discussion-Thread)

[Sheridan]

Just want to pay a belated tribute to our European entrants. Say what you like about League of Ireland teams in Europe, but they generally only get hilariously eliminated once per season.

[BonnieShels]

Just want to pay a belated tribute to our European entrants. Say what you like about League of Ireland teams in Europe, but they generally only get hilariously eliminated once per season.

YAY! Everybody, It's Sheridan!