Clubs divided over future LOI format?

[cheifo]

Article following last weeks league meeting. Didn't see this anywhere else , please delete mods if it is.

This would have been hotly debated on here a few years back. Have we all become we all battle weary? :lashes:



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0824/1224322861559.html

whoops just found this debate craftily concealed under last weeks score updates.

[geezer]

Its a debate that supporters direct reps in Ireland should be involved in. With trusts becoming central in the running of many clubs in the last few years hopefully the supporters views will be in the middle of the table and discussed.

[Spudulika]

Well next season there would be 20 clubs if what geezer and others from GUST have worked for comes to fruition. 20 teams is a perfect number, especially with 1 division operating. Next step is for the FAI and Junior clubs to man up and create competition.

[oriel]

Article following last weeks league meeting. Didn't see this anywhere else , please delete mods if it is.

This would have been hotly debated on here a few years back. Have we all become we all battle weary? :lashes:



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0824/1224322861559.html

whoops just found this debate craftily concealed under last weeks score updates.

I missed this, thx for posting Chief !

With regard to next season (and this is not just because we are currently bottom), I really think a single division Super League is the way forward, 12 team PD is ok but home twice, away once is a joke (for eg, we are away to Rovers, Derry, Cork, Sligo & Drogs TWICE this year, leaving only one home gate v them this season, all of these games would have been decent crowd pullers, actually it couldnt have worked out worse.)

10 is far too small, so why not go and expand it out to the provinces and have previous league winners like Athlone, Waterford & Limerick back into proper football. This would give these football towns & cities a massive boost. Finn Harps too, and possibly Longford also.

The obvious problem will be who to exlude, as the 11 current PD sides will all be first picks, then who do you take from the FD. Limerick, (def) Longford (prob) Waterford (prob) and the teams mentioned above. Is this too big ? maybe not.

Who does that leave behind? Wexford, Mervue, Salthill (SD Galway), would they have the appetite for another season ?

Then we have the problem of relegation from the single (super) league, relegated to where ?

A lot of questions, a lot of work to be done, also I would like to see a combined (and united, no pun) Galway side in at some stage, and Cobh too were treated very harshly over such a small debt when they were banished a few years ago.

So in principle, I do think a single division is the way forward, how its formed, who takes part/left out/relegation issue are all the obvious hard talking points.

Last point, I would also look into making a slight change to the season, not exactly killing off summer football, but adjusting it, starting the season off in Oct 1, missing out all of Jan, then going Feb to end of June. This would eliminate the poorly attended months of July & Aug. Clubs would still be playing (June) when their first euro game takes place, as opposed to the winter season, of having last played at the start of May.

[Spudulika]

Maybe there could be no relegation for 2-3 seasons, it would give the FAI and clubs times to build up a feeder system. 4 down 4 up, 1 from each province. I know some provinces are stronger than others, though it could help. Teams could choose not to be promoted, however if the league is flying a club would be nuts not to. But 2-3 years with no relegation would allow clubs to invest properly. Oh wait, I'm dreaming again.

[mypost]

Last point, I would also look into making a slight change to the season, not exactly killing off summer football, but adjusting it, starting the season off in Oct 1, missing out all of Jan, then going Feb to end of June. This would eliminate the poorly attended months of July & Aug. Clubs would still be playing (June) when their first euro game takes place, as opposed to the winter season, of having last played at the start of May.

Not much point in having summer football without playing in July and August. We have it to facilitate clubs in Europe, in mid-season. It defeats the purpose of it if they're going into it at the end of the season, and they would have no break at all if they get to the August play-offs and beyond.

Crowds will be poor in winter as they will be in summer, unless the clubs change their own ways of doing things, which few if any are willing to do.

[White Horse]

In the current economic climate, a single tier is the only way forward. Low budgets and amateur players are no longer an obstacle to doind well. One only has to look at Drogheda, being in second place on a miniscule budget.

There aren't enough teams for two divisions. A single tier would also be more of a national league.

[adamd164]

7 teams is clearly unviable for the First Division, particularly if (as seems to be suggested in the Irish Times article) Mervue and SD Galway are still knocking about. Something will have to be done to address that.

If the first division could be bulked up either by dropping a couple of PD clubs or allowing in the likes of Cobh and Tralee, then I'd stick with the two tier system. This also has the advantage of minimizing the meaningless midtable (or even lower table) games that a large league would bring.

If the likes of Mervue and SD Galway were planning on hanging around with no other changes, then I'd scrap the 7 team league, put Galway Utd, Limerick, Longford, Finn Harps, Athlone and Waterford along with all current PD clubs into a 17 team league. Possibly split it midway through the season into top and bottom halves.

[marinobohs]

Saw an article by Pat Dolan last week around this (possibly in the Star ?) and he rightly points out that meddling with the structure of the League is simply the football equivelent of rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.


A one tier league (as current two tier setup) will do nothing to improve standards and similarly nothing to stop the evaporation of crowds we are currently seeing.

Unless linked to a serious rebranding of the league and improving the battered image the League currently "enjoys" then tinkering around will do nothing to halt our decline.

[bluewhitearmy]

Saw an article by Pat Dolan last week around this (possibly in the Star ?) and he rightly points out that meddling with the structure of the League is simply the football equivelent of rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.


A one tier league (as current two tier setup) will do nothing to improve standards and similarly nothing to stop the evaporation of crowds we are currently seeing.

Unless linked to a serious rebranding of the league and improving the battered image the League currently "enjoys" then tinkering around will do nothing to halt our decline.


Exactly some seem to think that just changing it to one league and everything will be fine. Its ridiculous change to one league and the teams that are in trouble now will still be in the exact same trouble.

[mypost]

In the current economic climate, a single tier is the only way forward. A single tier would also be more of a national league.

It's not about the current economic climate, it's about the long term future of LOI football.

We had a single tier league until 1985. Teams came and went, crowds were low for years, pitches were terrible, facilities were much worse than now, and European success was a mere dream. It's not the solution.

[Macy]

Exactly some seem to think that just changing it to one league and everything will be fine. Its ridiculous change to one league and the teams that are in trouble now will still be in the exact same trouble.
Who's saying everything will be fine? There's simple no viable alternative at the moment - it's the least worst option. Keeping the 1st at 7 or 8 is effectively condemning those clubs anyway in my view. And those running the league, including the premier division clubs, who don't like the idea have helped create the situation by insisting on what little media coverage there is, is entirely focused on the premier.


Its a debate that supporters direct reps in Ireland should be involved in. With trusts becoming central in the running of many clubs in the last few years hopefully the supporters views will be in the middle of the table and discussed.
There's no agreement amongst fans, as shown by numerous threads here. The fact that Rovers are pushing the 10 team league shows that supporter run clubs still put their own clubs interest first.


What we need is vision and leadership from the FAI. If there was a plan, or decision to expand the first division next year then it would probably take the heat out of the debate. Every season there's a vacuum around the structure and which clubs are in which division and whether new teams are going to join the league*. Last year there were teams looking to join, but were blocked - for reasons that were never properly explained.

*Not entirely down to the FAI. Whatever about the pros and cons of summer football, there's no doubt it's helped make the league an administrative mess. Licencing is delayed too near the start of the following season because of how the league fits in with the financial year.

[Dodge]

In the current economic climate, a single tier is the only way forward. Low budgets and amateur players are no longer an obstacle to doind well. One only has to look at Drogheda, being in second place on a miniscule budget.

So you're using the success fo a team in the two tiered structure to say that the league needs to go to one division? I don't get how they're connected.

Any structure without relegation would be a joke IMO. Whats the incentive for teams ranked 7-16 to play the season out? It ain't prize money...

Where do first division clubs like Waterford think their extra money will come from? 2/3 gates against the likes of Rovers, Sligo or Cork? I've yet top see any argument made for a one division league other than "we're dying here". What makes you think you won't die in the single division league?

[Macy]

Where do first division clubs like Waterford think their extra money will come from? 2/3 gates against the likes of Rovers, Sligo or Cork? I've yet top see any argument made for a one division league other than "we're dying here". What makes you think you won't die in the single division league?
Compared to the first, the 3 or 4 extra gates would make a big difference for the first division clubs. The way things have gone in the premier the last few years there's effectively been teams playing out the season anyway, either through accepting their fate or being willing to take the chance on another club screwing up licencing.

Personally I'd only ever want a single division to be a short term option, and much prefer two divisions. However, a seperate first division simply isn't viable without more teams in the league.

[Charlie Darwin]

So you're using the success fo a team in the two tiered structure to say that the league needs to go to one division? I don't get how they're connected.

Any structure without relegation would be a joke IMO. Whats the incentive for teams ranked 7-16 to play the season out? It ain't prize money...
What's the incentive for most teams to play now? The top four in the PD is more or less set, and the FD has been a three-horse race for months. UCD or Dundalk might have to face a play-off, if no other teams go bust.

[Jofspring]

7 teams would be a disaster. At the moment the average attendance in the first division is approx 250(?). If it was 7 teams with any two out of Longford, limerick and Waterford gone you can drop that again. You could possibly be looking at average attendances of about 100 people at a push. That is not a viable league. Until more teams are allowed the time to get up to speed and ready themselves for LOI like Cobh, Tralee, Carlow, Fanad or whoever else then we need to go to one division till then.

The only other solution I can see is add Tralee, Carlow, Cobh etc... Next season And regionalise the first division to get the costs down for those clubs. A big drop in the cost of entering the first division needs to happen to help them too. Everything should be done to help them enter the league. Maybe then down the line if clubs are stable enough to continue we can look at making it into a non regionalised first division again.

[Dodge]

What's the incentive for most teams to play now? The top four in the PD is more or less set, and the FD has been a three-horse race for months. UCD or Dundalk might have to face a play-off, if no other teams go bust.

Well Monaghan going bust put a bit of a dampener on it but generally teams in top 4 and bottom 4 in premier and top 3/4 in first have something to play for (league/europe/relegation/promotion). Is 10th v 12th in the one league really going to help bring in a crowd?

Honestly if the league is being run on the basis of 2/3 away crowds (which aren't massive either) then fiddling about with structure won't help

[Charlie Darwin]

Well Monaghan going bust put a bit of a dampener on it but generally teams in top 4 and bottom 4 in premier and top 3/4 in first have something to play for (league/europe/relegation/promotion). Is 10th v 12th in the one league really going to help bring in a crowd?
People aren't exactly falling over themselves to see Bray play Bohs at it is. The question isn't whether a one-tier league would be a panacea - it wouldn't - but whether it could play a role in improving standards across the board.

I don't think dead rubber fixtures are as big an issue as you think. There are far more compelling reasons for people to stay at home on a Friday or Monday night, and people do.

[gufc2000]

If the likes of Mervue and SD Galway were planning on hanging around with no other changes, then I'd scrap the 7 team league, put Galway Utd, Limerick, Longford, Finn Harps, Athlone and Waterford along with all current PD clubs into a 17 team league. Possibly split it midway through the season into top and bottom halves.
A split? In a league where there's no relegation?

Imagine the appeal of those games in the bottom half.

I know it's been people are blue in the face from saying it, but until the strucutres below the Senior Leagues are organised properly, and some kind of feeder system is in place, then fiddling with the National League is futile.

[Dodge]

People aren't exactly falling over themselves to see Bray play Bohs at it is. The question isn't whether a one-tier league would be a panacea - it wouldn't - but whether it could play a role in improving standards across the board.
First part accepted, but how would a one team division make any positive difference to that?


I don't think dead rubber fixtures are as big an issue as you think. There are far more compelling reasons for people to stay at home on a Friday or Monday night, and people do.
I wasn't talking about dead rubbers purely from a crowds num,ber point of view, I was talking more about the level of play in those games. Call it sporting integrity if you want to gove it a wanky title.

And to clarify, I'm not suggesting that 7 or 8 teams in a division is in any way a good thing.

[Sam_Heggy]

As a fan, do people really get excited about the prospect of facing the same team for a 4th league meeting in the season? Possibly a 5th or 6th meeting in total once you include cup competitions. It's boring beyond comprehension.

Players are fed up looking at the same players every week, teams are cancelling each other out as they are so familiar with each other (Pats-Sligo game being the most recent proof of this).

Was it not mentioned that there would be relegation with 4 regional leagues set up below the Prem? Ulster, Munster, Connaught and Leinster leagues respectively? So the no relegation arguement would be out the window.

On the other hand, you are going to get some absolute annihilation's for a few seasons between the top and bottom sides but there is some pretty poor sides in the Prem this past few seasons too and it doesn't seem to bother some people (depending on the geography of the club maybe?).

Clubs are working hard to improve their sides with extremely limited resources. You have Cobh, Harps, Salthill and Waterford from the 1st Division and below with sides in the Elite Division of the U19's working on developing players capable of going into their 1st team and making the senior side more competitive.

Personally, I would like it to stay as a Premier Division and 1st Division but only if there is more than 8 teams and sustainable one's at that) in the 1st. We've built a genuinely decent side in the 1st and would be serious contenders for promotion next season imo. We've proven that the crowds will come back once we are back in with a genuine chance of promotion again.

[Charlie Darwin]

First part accepted, but how would a one team division make any positive difference to that?
Stability, more variation, more competition due to a more equitable distribution of resources. I don't think it would make a massive difference on its own but I think it would help keep clubs in business which is the #1 challenge facing the league right now.


I wasn't talking about dead rubbers purely from a crowds num,ber point of view, I was talking more about the level of play in those games. Call it sporting integrity if you want to gove it a wanky title.
Is there really much of a difference between a one-tier league where 10 teams have nothing to play for a two-tier league where 8 clubs have nothing to play for?

[gormacha]

I know the travails of teams in the first division are of little interest to most clubs in the PD - except those that fear they could be there themselves in the not too distant future - but the bottom line is that the clubs in the FD are doomed unless there is change. The only option that will help them is a single division.

Clubs like Mervue and Salthill may then drift back into junior football, but I suspect Waterford, Athlone and Harps would probably just fold.

We are looking at a seven team division next year. With all due respect to Mervue and Salthill (says he as he goes on to slightly disrespect them), they are senior clubs in name only. They get home gates of under 100. Wexford aren't that far in front of them. So, for teams like Limerick, Harps, Athlone, Longford and Waterford United, we are effectively in a division with three/four teams that can generate gates that even remotely get us near breaking even on a given match night, let alone as a going concern. I suspect Waterford United will fold in advance of next season rather than face a seven team FD.

Someone above made the point along the lines of "would a few games against Shamrock Rovers, Sligo, Pats etc really add that much to these clubs' income?" The answer is, yes. Enormously so. The fact that that question can even be seriously posed shows how incredibly out of touch PD clubs' fans are with the realities of the FD.

I'm a rabid Blues supporter, but even I will not go and watch us play Salthill four times AGAIN next season. And if the likes of me won't go, we're phuqed.

I suppose I shouldn't be that surprised, but I would have thought a bit of variety for Dublin clubs outside of playing each other over and over again would make a single division interesting to them. It seems not.

[marinobohs]

Can those proposing/supporting the one League/ Division model explain


- will it improve crowd numbers ?

- will it improve standard of football/facilities/Licencing in the LOI ?

-will it heighten the profile or help promote the League in any way additional to that which the current model does ?

-will it attract money/investment into the League (above what current model generates) ?

Personally I cannot see a positive answer to any of those questions, therefore it is simply not the answer to the current ills of Irish football. It may be an ingredient in a new proposal but in isolation the idea of one division will simply create more mismatch games. Charlie Darwin posted that not many are currently "falling over themselves" to see Bray V Bohs, so imagine how many will "fall over themselves" to see Bray V Wexford Youths* ?




Change must have some significant business motivation (based around the questions above) or is simply change to be seen to "do something". We have had far too much of that crap in the past


* no offence to Bray or Wexford, you could almost as easily insert any two clubs in the country :rolleyes:

[gormacha]

marinobohs - we're not talking about solving all of the LOI's problems, we're talking about something that would in the short to medium term save famous old clubs like Harps, Waterford, Athlone, Longford, and give clubs like Wexford a fighting chance of developing into a famous old club.

Some Dublin clubs may want a 10 team PD. They may well get it on a permanent basis.

[marinobohs]

marinobobs - we're not talking about solving all of the LOI's problems, we're talking about something that would in the short to medium term save famous old clubs like Harps, Waterford, Athlone, Longford, and give clubs like Wexford a fighting chance of developing into a famous old club.

Some Dublin clubs may want a 10 team PD. They may well get it on a permanent basis.

More snouts in a rapidly dwinding trough is not benificial for the game here. Your argument is that there should be a single tier league to provide a couple of extra gates for some first Division clubs ? Really ?

The problems at first division clubs are identical to the problems of Premier clubs - too low crowds, lack of credibility, lack of investment. These are the issues that need to be addressed not some window dressing that gives first Division clubs a couple of bigger gates a season. A major part of the problem in the League is that First Division (and Premier clubs) rarely seem capable of looking beyond their own vested interest.

[gormacha]

The problems at first division clubs are identical to the problems of Premier clubs - too low crowds, lack of credibility, lack of investment. These are the issues that need to be addressed not some window dressing that gives first Division clubs a couple of bigger gates a season. A major part of the problem in the League is that First Division (and Premier clubs) rarely seem capable of looking beyond their own vested interest.

I agree with you completely. I'm not sure why you think someone arguing to keep FD clubs alive would disagree with you on these points.

My point is simply this: more clubs will die, and more quickly, if the structure is left as is. This outcome is inevitable and it is imminent. Perhaps as early as next season. The debate over structure will become immaterial after that. You will then probably have a single division anyway, except it will be because many FD clubs have gone back to junior football or folded.

[nigel-harps1954]

Can those proposing/supporting the one League/ Division model explain


- will it improve crowd numbers ?

Yes. Most certainly for certain teams, as I've said before, if Shamrock Rovers are getting an average of 3,500 now, they'll continue to get it regardless of who they're playing as long as they're pushing for league honours.



- will it improve standard of football/facilities/Licencing in the LOI ?

Not necessarily, but I don't think anyone suggested it would. What it would do is give everyone a fighting chance of survival.



-will it heighten the profile or help promote the League in any way additional to that which the current model does ?

Yes. More clubs will be pushing for more sponsorship. The additional 7 first division teams will now be getting TV coverage in the one tier league, meaning bigger interest in sponsorship. The league will now be in line with the big fancy English Premier league, more teams, more interest in derby matches, less monotony of playing teams over and over again. So yes, much more interest.



-will it attract money/investment into the League (above what current model generates) ?

Nobody is suggesting it would, but it's possible yes. A new re-branded 'Republic of Ireland Super League' would have to catch the eye of potential investors.




Personally I cannot see a positive answer to any of those questions, therefore it is simply not the answer to the current ills of Irish football.

Personally, I think you have a very one-sided view on the matter. Try spending a few years in the First Division.


It may be an ingredient in a new proposal but in isolation the idea of one division will simply create more mismatch games. Charlie Darwin posted that not many are currently "falling over themselves" to see Bray V Bohs, so imagine how many will "fall over themselves" to see Bray V Wexford Youths* ?


What kind of interest is there in Wexford Youths vs Mervue United? Maybe an attendance of 150/200 people.

Now tell me, potential crowds at Wexford Youths vs Bohemian FC. Increased local interest in playing a bigger team, potentially an increase to 400 home fans, add in the away crowd that will travel (as opposed to no away crowd from Mervue), for arguments sake 100 people travel.
That extra 300 people can make a big difference to a club like Wexford Youths.

[Dodge]

The league will now be in line with the big fancy English Premier league

Eek!


As a fan, do people really get excited about the prospect of facing the same team for a 4th league meeting in the season? Possibly a 5th or 6th meeting in total once you include cup competitions. It's boring beyond comprehension.

As a fan group I'd imagine most Pats fans would take 2 home games with Bohs, Rovers and Shels over 1 each with Bohs, Rovers, Shels, Mervue, Wexford and Athlone (with all respect to their clubs).

Personally I'd be happy enough to never play Bohs, shels or ROvers again. but thats a different story


I know the travails of teams in the first division are of little interest to most clubs in the PD...

Some Dublin clubs may want...
Jesus, I hate this type of BS. I hate people looking out for their own clubs' welfare moaning about others doing the same. Particularly when the truth is that most have the best interest of the league at heart. They just think it should go different ways...

[gormacha]

Jesus, I hate this type of BS. I hate people looking out for their own clubs' welfare moaning about others doing the same. Particularly when the truth is that most have the best interest of the league at heart. They just think it should go different ways...

Both of those statements of mine that you pulled out (whilst ignoring the substantive point I was making) are accurate. Can you honestly say otherwise?

I don't mean to denigrate other clubs or their fans. I'm trying to convey the sense of frustration and helplessness that FD clubs feel when clubs (like Shamrock Rovers, as reported in the IT) seem happy to push for a ten team division, a structure which is our club's death knell. How anyone can argue that condemning us and similar clubs to play games against clubs that structurally cannot provide viable attendances four times a year when it is within their gift to change the landscape for the better at a stroke, and still maintain they have "the best interest of the league at heart" is hard to accept.

I just want clubs, in the first instance, to survive. We are at that juncture. In the same way that I wanted Bohs to overcome their recent problems. And wanted Pats to get back to their home ground. As I do Limerick. As I did Shamrock Rovers many years ago. As I wanted Dundalk to survive their recent and continuing challenges. I wasn't being jingoistic with my comments, and your response reveals more about your position than it did about mine.

[Dodge]

How anyone can argue that condemning us and similar clubs to play glorified junior clubs four times a year when it is within their gift to change the landscape for the better at a stroke, and still maintain they have "the best interest of the league at heart" is hard to accept.
Can't speak for Rovers but maybe they think that the 10 team league would help drive both competivieness and marketibility in the league. maybe they think the league shouldn't be suited around clubs that have failed, or are failing. Maybe they don't believe clubs who haven't earned the right to play in the premier division shouldn't be rewarded with a one division league. or maybe they think a 19 team league is the worst idea ever to happen.

It could be one, none or all of these. but the point remains that you can't see any merit in their point of view, and tbh that says it all for me.


I just want clubs, in the first instance, to survive. We are at that juncture. In the same way that I wanted Bohs to overcome their recent problems. And wanted Pats to get back to their home ground. As I do Limerick. As I did Shamrock Rovers many years ago. As I wanted Dundalk to survive their recent and continuing challenges.
And I'll say again, how will this make more clusb survive? Monaghan survived in the first, and died in the premier division. They didn't get the benefit of more away fans, TV coverage, etc etc. Clubs that are badly run will continue to be badly run. The league make up is immaterial


I wasn't being jingoistic with my comments, and your response reveals more about your position than it did about mine.

Of course my response reveals more about me. They're my words.

[Spudulika]

Last post first, Dodge is right (not on the eek!, that Irish Super League sounds like fun - why else is Premier used?) - this nonsense about what "Dublin clubs want", can we get past this please. This is one of the roots that cause complete discord in Ireland, full stop! This divide has to be closed, right away, we all want the league to thrive, not just survive. Ultimately we'll all go for a pint after a match, come on forums, tell tales about other clubs finances, about who broke a minutes silence first, which fans use umbrellas most creatively and other sorts of stupidity that make live more livable. However there is a caveat, we're divided and conquered and it's simply down to the administration and clubs to work together to make it right.

Now on a feeder system, I am completely in favour of this, that it's not there is nothing to do with Senior leagues below the LOI being disorganised, they're organised for what they serve and are there for. The difficulty is that there is no active step up to the LOI and we've to ask why? Blame the FAI? Blame licencing? Easy to do that, or maybe it's simply down to finances, fear of what could happen moving up to the LOI or just down to the fact that it's easier for Bluebell, Cherry Orchard, Bank Rovers or whoever to just play in a competitive context without the spotlight shining in the LOI. Back a fair while ago when Tolka Rovers were flying and won the Junior Cup, they did so with a smattering of Dubs players who were all getting a few quid for turning out. There was no oversight, no hassle and no contracts. Up in the LOI it's a different ball game.

Marinobohs, you've put up brilliant questions as to why should there be a single league/division, Nigel has answered them well (again I like that Super League idea), and you did right to question it. But please then take it to the next level and offer some views on what CAN be done to make it better.

On relegation/promotion, it's ideal, it doesn't take away from a league not to have an absence of it when there is a medium-long term plan, but it can only last for 2-3 years. Growth in clubs (numbers as well as within the clubs) is the only way to keep the ball rolling in the way Nigel has stated, so this then is back to the LOI clubs in the "new" division and the FAI to nurture other clubs into the equation. 16 clubs in the top division is optimal, though 20 to start with works nicely IF there is a plan in place.

[marinobohs]

I agree with you completely. I'm not sure why you think someone arguing to keep FD clubs alive would disagree with you on these points.

My point is simply this: more clubs will die, and more quickly, if the structure is left as is. This outcome is inevitable and it is imminent. Perhaps as early as next season. The debate over structure will become immaterial after that. You will then probably have a single division anyway, except it will be because many FD clubs have gone back to junior football or folded.

For the record I am not hung up on either argument (one or two divisions) and would be totally opposed to any maintenance of the status Quo (slow death all round IMHO) - except as part of a bigger League restructure. Numbers are dwindling, investment is almost a distant memory and the national economic situation is likely to get worse not better.

My point remains unless the League is rebranded/changed/sexed up then all clubs will continue to deteriorate. Believe me, if I thought that a 50 team division would boost crowds etc I would be for it, the fact is it would not.
Having a single division simply to provide a couple of bigger gates for some first division team is me feinism and gives the muppets in Abbotstown a chance to dodge makig the change that is really needed.


Believe it or not clubs in Dublin/Cork/Galway/Limerick have gone out of business so this is not a Dublin/City V Country thing :rolleyes:

[marinobohs]

[QUOTE=nigel-harps1954;1622019]Yes. Most certainly for certain teams, as I've said before, if Shamrock Rovers are getting an average of 3,500 now, they'll continue to get it regardless of who they're playing as long as they're pushing for league honours.

So you dont believe the opposition has any impact on home crowds ? Utter rubbish

Not necessarily, but I don't think anyone suggested it would. What it would do is give everyone a fighting chance of survival.

Except of course premier clubs that see standard drop and potential further deterioration in crowds, but, hey, as long as Harps get a couple of bigger gates.


Yes. More clubs will be pushing for more sponsorship. The additional 7 first division teams will now be getting TV coverage in the one tier league, meaning bigger interest in sponsorship. The league will now be in line with the big fancy English Premier league, more teams, more interest in derby matches, less monotony of playing teams over and over again. So yes, much more interest.

More clubs pushing for the same sponsorship. Where did all that Premier Division "TV coverage" and "bigger interest" get Sporting Fingal or Monaghan Utd ? Watching top teams hammer smaller clubs ? much more interest ? Worked wonders for Galway last season*



Nobody is suggesting it would, but it's possible yes. A new re-branded 'Republic of Ireland Super League' would have to catch the eye of potential investors.

That is exactly what I proposed instead of just changing the number of divisions




Personally, I think you have a very one-sided view on the matter. Try spending a few years in the First Division.

More to LOI than the First Division - and you accuse premier Clubs of self interest :rolleyes:



What kind of interest is there in Wexford Youths vs Mervue United? Maybe an attendance of 150/200 people.

Now tell me, potential crowds at Wexford Youths vs Bohemian FC. Increased local interest in playing a bigger team, potentially an increase to 400 home fans, add in the away crowd that will travel (as opposed to no away crowd from Mervue), for arguments sake 100 people travel.
That extra 300 people can make a big difference to a club like Wexford Youths

Yep, can see Wexfors Youths packing out Dalymount alright. Much better for Bohs than a second home game against shams/pats. As ever, you appear incapable of seeing beyond the First Division perspective

* except when the buggers played Bohs :(

[Macy]

Can't speak for Rovers but maybe they think that the 10 team league would help drive both competivieness and marketibility in the league. maybe they think the league shouldn't be suited around clubs that have failed, or are failing. Maybe they don't believe clubs who haven't earned the right to play in the premier division shouldn't be rewarded with a one division league. or maybe they think a 19 team league is the worst idea ever to happen.
Sounds like Rovers are Ollie Byrne reincarnated, if they believe that bs! 10 team has been tried, and failed. The league structure is part of the problem, even for well run clubs. As grime as being a League of Ireland fan is, perma premier division clubs fans really have no idea how soul destroying the first can be, as simply a supporter. I can only imagine what it's like for management committees. Badly run clubs will still be badly run, yes, but it will give well run clubs a fighting chance for a few years - the league make up does matter.

Bottom line is a 7 or 8 first isn't viable. Premier division clubs and their fans can dress things up whatever way they want, but as others have said they'll either get a single division now, or they'll effectively force clubs out and get it in a year or two when clubs just pack it in.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

Players are fed up looking at the same players every week, teams are cancelling each other out as they are so familiar with each other (Pats-Sligo game being the most recent proof of this).


How is that a proof of teams cancelling each other out cause they are so familiar with each other? It's the second time we've played them this season and both clubs have new managers and a lot of player changes from last season.

[Dodge]

Sounds like Rovers are Ollie Byrne reincarnated, if they believe that bs!
Just to be clear, I've no idea clue about their rationale. Just playing Devil's advocate in some way



no idea how soul destroying the first can be, as simply a supporter. I can only imagine what it's like for management committees. Badly run clubs will still be badly run, yes, but it will give well run clubs a fighting chance for a few years - the league make up does matter.
You've said you'd like to see 2 divisions. So what happens when the 'new' 2nd division is (re)introduced.


Bottom line is a 7 or 8 first isn't viable. Premier division clubs and their fans can dress things up whatever way they want, but as others have said they'll either get a single division now, or they'll effectively force clubs out and get it in a year or two when clubs just pack it in.

Is the argument that the whole league should be re-arranged to save the weakest couple of clubs? How is that addressing anything?

If the SOLE thing donee to this league is that one division emerges, then clubs will die anyway. Because the same people are going to make the same mistakes

[marinobohs]

Sounds like Rovers are Ollie Byrne reincarnated, if they believe that bs! 10 team has been tried, and failed. The league structure is part of the problem, even for well run clubs. As grime as being a League of Ireland fan is, perma premier division clubs fans really have no idea how soul destroying the first can be, as simply a supporter. I can only imagine what it's like for management committees. Badly run clubs will still be badly run, yes, but it will give well run clubs a fighting chance for a few years - the league make up does matter.

Bottom line is a 7 or 8 first isn't viable. Premier division clubs and their fans can dress things up whatever way they want, but as others have said they'll either get a single division now, or they'll effectively force clubs out and get it in a year or two when clubs just pack it in.

Macy, this is not a First V Premier issue either (apart from shams we dont know what Prem clubs think). A single Division would just as likely drag Premier clubs down as it would drag First Division teams up, is that what people want ?

As long as the League is as stagnant as it currently is (and that may be generous) then changing the structure will only determine which clubs go bang. Surely we should be looking to ensure none - Premier or First - do ?

[gormacha]

Is the argument that the whole league should be re-arranged to save the weakest couple of clubs?

That's not what's being argued. What is being argued is that a single division offers greater stability to those clubs that would be viable if given the lifeline of playing clubs that are capable of maintaining the interest of an increasingly uninterested public. My own bias is clear, as it would help Waterford United considerably, but my interest is not solely about our survival.

Clubs that would generally be seen as having been key parts of LOI history, and have proved over decades that in the right conditionsthey have a fan base capable of sustaining LOI football, need this. Us obviously, but Limerick, Athlone, Longford and Harps also. Galway as a town would also be included in that description. Salthill and Mervue, frankly, will never be in a position to really contribute as a senior club. So, not about saving the weakest couple of clubs, but possibly a half dozen of traditionally strong teams.

In the case of Waterford, for example, the club has been a model of financial restraint - its not a question of helping a club that was mismanaged, but helping a club that is structurally hamstrung by playing in a division from which it is finding it impossible to make ends meet, no matter how well run it is.

I know such a change is not at first glance in the interests of the "bigger clubs". My point earlier about they being Dublin clubs is not a pop at them for being from Dublin per se (I happily adopted both Bohs and Shels for years when living in Dublin), it is a statement of the reality that the clubs who will resist this most will almost certainly be the Dublin clubs, for good reasons. They will have fewer local derbies, and almost certainly their overheads will increase somewhat. What we are proposing is in some ways a redistribution of income achieved through restructuring that will offer a greater chance for other LOI clubs to survive. This is the main argument that I would put to these clubs - that rsestructuring is a key plank in helping the broadest spectrum of clubs survive. Ultimately, this is in everyone's interest.

Shoud this be part of a wider programme of reform? Certainly. But it's a crucial part.

[Jofspring]

Is what rovers are after a ten team premier? If so and the first division was to continue to get weaker and weaker with more teams dropping out every year for either financial reasons or just wanting to go back to junior leagues till the division is potentially gone would we not be left with a single division anyway with the same ten teams playing each other over and over and over again? It wouldn't take much for that to happen. It's not like teams are queing up to replace the teams leaving or to just join in the division in general. SD, Mervue and let's say Waterford decide to pull out next season and go to senior league. You are then left with a handful of teams who would also be forced to pull out as the division would be so small they could not survive.

Would rovers still be interested in a 10 team league if let's say they were in the bottom two of the league and faced being bumped down to division one to accommodate a ten team league? I highly doubt it.

Obviously all of that is hypothetically but it's not beyond the realms of belief that it could happen. The way things are going we are slowly edging towards it anyway.

I really don't think one division for the next 5 years is such a crazy suggestion.

[Charlie Darwin]

Is what rovers are after a ten team premier?
The club doesn't have a public position but Emmett Malone is under the impression that is their position behind the scenes. If so, the club is putting immediate financial security ahead of the league's long term health.

[Jofspring]

The club doesn't have a public position but Emmett Malone is under the impression that is their position behind the scenes. If so, the club is putting immediate financial security ahead of the league's long term health.

I suppose the harder question they'd need to answer is would such a league provide sustained financial security and not just immediate security.

A premier division with the following grounds would a much more attractive prospect surely and much easier to market as a decent league with decent facilities than currently:

Tallaght Stadium
Turners Cross
Showgrounds
Hunky Dorys Park
Richmond Park
The Brandywell
Dalymount
Tolka
UCD Bowl
Carlisle
Oriel Park
RSC
Flancare Park
Athlone Town Stadium
A new Finn Harps Stadium
A new Markets Field
Deacy Park (Galway United in some form)

I know a few grounds would need work done to them, but at least we would have a pretty respectable looking league grounds wise with the addition of the 5 mentioned grounds, all of which should have very decent facilities and will at least abolish the rubbish about crap facilities keeps the crowds away. There would be a nice spread around the country too.

Limerick FC vs Shamrock Rovers once a season in Markets Field would draw a massive crowd and likewise I could see a decent following going to the away game if it's a once off away. Finn Harps vs Derry in the new stadium likewise. Then you would have the Munster derbies Limerick vs Cork, Cork vs Waterford etc.... Which I would expect to have big crowds regardless of being dead rubbers or not. Games need to be as much about occasions and days out as the actual importance of a game when it comes to joe public.

[Sam_Heggy]

2 or 3 years ago this topic would have about 20 pages by now.

Is that also a sign of how the league is going? Even the hardcore are losing interest.

Something drastic has to happen, whatever that drastic action is, it needs to happen soon.

Wage caps? lower affiliation fee's? better prize money? improved facilities? Half time strippers? Cut price alcohol sales in ground?

[mypost]

10 team has been tried, and failed. The league structure is part of the problem, even for well run clubs. As grime as being a League of Ireland fan is, perma premier division clubs fans really have no idea how soul destroying the first can be, as simply a supporter. I can only imagine what it's like for management committees. Badly run clubs will still be badly run, yes, but it will give well run clubs a fighting chance for a few years - the league make up does matter.

We know very well what the First Division is like. You can have one league, two leagues, or three leagues, the fact remains that our league is poorly organised, badly marketed, insanely scheduled, and comes with high ticket prices. It's never going to thrive while those factors exist. It will plod along as ever.

As regards Waterford, getting beaten 8-1 by Rovers (and other PD clubs on a regular basis) as they did this year, is not going to pull in the crowds of either side. Waterford Utd were kept up in the Premier Division for a number of years due to other clubs issues, until they finally went down in 2007. Clearly they think they should still be entitled to a piece of the Premier pie. Sadly for them, they'll have to earn it like everyone else. That's life.

As regards the feeder system, the reality is nobody wants it. Salthill and Mervue earned their place in the league via the feeder system, and have taken nothing but stick for it ever since. It's not their fault that they're based in Galway, and shouldn't have to suffer because of it.

I hated the 10-team league, and hated having to play certain teams 4 times a year as well. The madness of it hit home last year, when we had games in hand for months, and most of our last series of games had to be rescheduled because of our European success. Something had to change for this year and it did. It's not perfect, but while the first paragraph is the league's current model, a 12-team top flight is probably the best of the few options there are available imo.

[Sam_Heggy]

In fairness, that was pre-season and a completely different shaped Waterford team now.

[Macy]

You've said you'd like to see 2 divisions. So what happens when the 'new' 2nd division is (re)introduced.
More than 7 or 8 clubs in the lower division.


Is the argument that the whole league should be re-arranged to save the weakest couple of clubs? How is that addressing anything?

If the SOLE thing donee to this league is that one division emerges, then clubs will die anyway. Because the same people are going to make the same mistakes
It's fire fighting a league in crisis. There's weak clubs, and clubs with potential in the 1st. 7 team division would mean more clubs throwing in the towel imo - and ironically it'll be the clubs with little potential that'll remain and have to be incorporated into the premier anyway.


Macy, this is not a First V Premier issue either (apart from shams we dont know what Prem clubs think). A single Division would just as likely drag Premier clubs down as it would drag First Division teams up, is that what people want ?
It's fire fighting a league in crisis. To repeat again, an 7 or 8 team 1st isn't viable. Short term pain for the premier teams to ensure long term survival


As long as the League is as stagnant as it currently is (and that may be generous) then changing the structure will only determine which clubs go bang. Surely we should be looking to ensure none - Premier or First - do ?
Well I agree with the point that it's not a long term solution. Personally, I think the FAI/ league should be investigating radical options.

[nigel-harps1954]

So you dont believe the opposition has any impact on home crowds ? Utter rubbish

Never said it did. What I said is, if the likes of Shamrock Rovers or Sligo Rovers are getting big crowds..they will continue to do so if they're pushing for League honours.



Except of course premier clubs that see standard drop and potential further deterioration in crowds, but, hey, as long as Harps get a couple of bigger gates.

Cop on. That's idiotic, sarcastic rubbish.


More clubs pushing for the same sponsorship. Where did all that Premier Division "TV coverage" and "bigger interest" get Sporting Fingal or Monaghan Utd ? Watching top teams hammer smaller clubs ? much more interest ? Worked wonders for Galway last season*


In the case of Monaghan Utd. That was their own fault. Over spending and stupidity. Their crowds did go up, they were earning more money than they were in the First, they were just not spending it wisely.

Now don't even try compare Monaghan to Limerick/Longford/Harps/Waterford/Athlone, because we both already know, said clubs have much bigger fanbases.

Galway is an awful example to use.



That is exactly what I proposed instead of just changing the number of divisions


Great, glad we're in agreement, but tell me, what exactly is simply changing a name going to do if you're not going to adjust the structure?



Yep, can see Wexfors Youths packing out Dalymount alright. Much better for Bohs than a second home game against shams/pats. As ever, you appear incapable of seeing beyond the First Division perspective


Never said Wexford would pack out Dalymount. I'm saying there would be increased interest in Wexford in such a game. Don't you agree?


For the record, I'm totally in favour of relegation/promotion. It adds added incentive to the end of season. Ideally a 16 team Premier would feed into regionalised Division 1 North and South, but for now, to re-build and re-brand the league, it has to be 1 division. 18/20 teams for now, and in 2 or 3 seasons, look at the league again. Look at the layout and structure and try work out a deal with the junior/intermediate leagues to potentially feed into the League of Ireland. I think it's the only way forward at the minute.

[Mr A]

I definitely get the impression that there is less traffic on here than there used to be.

In relation to the idea of one division- I think the key argument is that the first division is simply running out of clubs. An 8 team league is pretty awful but anything below that is just going to be utterly unsustainable. But then I don't think many people within the league care about the lower flight, never mind within the FAI.

[SkStu]

Can those proposing/supporting the one League/ Division model explain


- will it improve crowd numbers ?

- will it improve standard of football/facilities/Licencing in the LOI ?

-will it heighten the profile or help promote the League in any way additional to that which the current model does ?

-will it attract money/investment into the League (above what current model generates) ?




It will not do so straight away but, as part of a well run league, could potentially address each of your questions in the positive over 2 or 3 seasons. But without the support of the FAI (real support i.e. structured and focussed financial resources) or endorsement of the PL clubs it will fail therefore it is a pointless suggestion. Ideally a more representative league is something we should consider and, i think, would be more appealing to floating fans, especially outside of Dublin.

I would like to see the idea of the 2 regional leagues underneath, supplemented with U19 teams, given more consideration. Theres potential in that idea as you can do what you like with the divisional leagues including promotion/relegation, registration fees and the cost to participate could be nominal or on a cost recovery basis etc etc. Reality is that some teams will have to be left behind in the initial stages.

How do you solve a problem like LOI? ;)

[SkStu]

Ideally a 16 team Premier would feed into regionalised Division 1 North and South, but for now, to re-build and re-brand the league, it has to be 1 division.

why?

I would rather take a few years and get the structures in place to successfully and gradually transition to a 1, 2N, 2S format. An unsupported, immediate 18/20 team league will unquestionably fail and promotion/relegation will never be voted in and then it will truly become stagnant (until the AIL fixes everything... ;)).