Clubs divided over future LOI format?

[pineapple stu]

These were both a long time ago to be fair - and perhaps not relavant to the discussion of the modern game?
The top-half bottom-half split was 15 years ago. How's this not relevant to the modern game?!

Your points about how sport changes and how things 15 years ago aren't relevant to the modern game or how we change from a marathon to a sprint are all soundbytes - they don't contain an iota of solid evidence to back them up. That's not a reason to dismiss them, but generally, the worst ideas are the ones which are shouted about loudest, with nice but ultimately meaningless soundbytes about how change is needed. So that's why I'm cynical about your proposals, unfortunately. :)

[Real ale Madrid]

The top-half bottom-half split was 15 years ago. How's this not relevant to the modern game?!

Your points about how sport changes and how things 15 years ago aren't relevant to the modern game or how we change from a marathon to a sprint are all soundbytes - they don't contain an iota of solid evidence to back them up. That's not a reason to dismiss them, but generally, the worst ideas are the ones which are shouted about loudest, with nice but ultimately meaningless soundbytes about how change is needed. So that's why I'm cynical about your proposals, unfortunately. :)

I will remove the sound bytes if you will consider them further? :)

I didn’t mean to be shouting the loudest – and I have no concrete evidence that any of it would work, just a hunch that the playoffs have added a lot to the league system in Belgium.

I was just trying to add context to the discussion by mentioning other sports – I am of the belief that we need radical change in the league and I have thought that for the last 10 years actually. The reduction in the number of games is my key point in all this – regardless of the format.

[pineapple stu]

I will remove the sound bytes if you will consider them further? :)
Well, if they're gone, I won't need to consider them!

I'm not accusing you of shouting loudest; sorry. Just that your comments are phrased similar to the likes of Platinum 1, who came out with what was demonstrably nonsense but kind of used similar vague back-up to what you've used.

[gormacha]

This is why I'd love to see some serious research done: there's loads of good ideas here that people have seen, or know of, operating elsewhere. If these could be contextualised within their historical setting, we'd be in a strong position to know what might work in the unique situation the LOI finds itself in here.

[Real ale Madrid]

Well, if they're gone, I won't need to consider them!

I'm not accusing you of shouting loudest; sorry. Just that your comments are phrased similar to the likes of Platinum 1, who came out with what was demonstrably nonsense but kind of used similar vague back-up to what you've used.

What I meant was if the soundbyes are gone will you consider the proposals. So Ignore the (what you percieve as ) hyperbole and go again.

I'm not aware of the platinum 1 stuff - i'd like to see change driven by people within the game anyway.

[Macy]

However, I can't see the big clubs going along with the idea. Shams won't want to give up their games against Derry and Sligo and replace them with Waterford and Athlone, and I don't think the prospect of a big attendance at the end of the season for the potential playoffs will swing them back.

Another criticism (although it's one that could equally be levelled at the single-tier model) is that it makes it difficult for new teams to break into the league. You'd go straight from playing junior football to playing Sligo Rovers, with no intermediate divisions.
Well that's why you'd have the interconference series. Think how big the Bohs Rovers games would be if it was split as you posted, or Pats Shels, or even el clasico, with the regular season game being potentially the only meeting of the season?

As for new teams, those games against the big clubs would give them guaranteed revenue, and because of the regionalisation they'd have lower costs too. Also, with the lack of relegation pressure, they wouldn't feel the same need to spend to compete. They'd be initially targeting 8th, with the chance to play off to play at (hopefully packed) Lansdowne.

As regards Europe from the league - Play off winner into the Champions League, Runner up the Europa League, and final league place to the best placed non finalists. Plus FAI Cup place. If we went play off model, you go play off model as far as possible. No point trying to work out a way to maintain european places as they were. Most times a conference winner would get europe that way - it'd need both to lose the playoff semi for that not to happen.

I'm not sure it'd necessarily bring in loads more fans, although I think it could with the fewer big games even in the regular season never mind the play offs. However, it would bring a degree of stability to the league. It's remove financial pressures and temptations from clubs, so they could build slowly and dare I say it try and invest off the field, as they'd have a reasonably secure income stream. I'm not really comfortable with the "sure lets have a go, what harm can it do" approach, but given the FAI's previous research, I think it's probably the best we can hope for.

[pineapple stu]

What I meant was if the soundbyes are gone will you consider the proposals. So Ignore the (what you percieve as ) hyperbole and go again.
Oh, ok. I've tried to do that anyway in my posts - I don't think tinkering or format changes will do much good. We simply don't have a culture of going to games in Ireland. 30 or 40 years ago, this could maybe have been changed (as it was in countries like Norway and Denmark), but now, it's arguably too late with the omnipresence of the Premiership and El Clasico.

To an extent, my view is that - by and large - the league is what it is, and acceptance of that fact will help people focus on more important issues - community interaction, proper media usage, that sort of stuff. A fundamental problem with the league is that the country as a whole is screwed; hard enough to do anything about that to be honest.

Platinum 1's proposals was to give them control of the league and all the clubs would double their budgets overnight, just because. If you missed it, be thankful!

[Dodge]

Platinum 1's proposals was to give them control of the league and all the clubs would double their budgets overnight, just because. If you missed it, be thankful!

To be fair they would also raise the participations fees to about €100k per club, "ensure a TV contract" was in place to provide "valuable income" for clubs and work with major "international sponsors".

Worst piece of LOI spoofery since the genesis report

[Dalymountrower]

Some interesting models suggested in the thread.

I think that it is accepted by everyone interested in LO1 football even the FAI that the current model is unsustainable. I do share the view that there needs to be a more realistic opportunity for traditional football areas like Athlone, Waterford, Harps Cobh etc to aspire to top flite status without having to spend big and bust and that the model should be sufficiently attractive to tempt new or established junior clubs like Tralee , Westport, Newbridge, Mullingar into the structure .
So if we had in year one 20 participating clubs , each play each other once (19 games). The league would then split into an 8 team premier , who play each other once and two six team North and South Divisions who again play each other once.
The premier league is won after 26 games. The bottom four of the premier play off, the losing two go into a relegation play off against qualifiers from the two Regional leagues.
The top two in the regional leagues get automatic promotion in year one, 2nd and 3rd in the regionals play off to produce two relegation finals against the the two losing premier teams from the bottom four premier competition.
Year two; 12 team premier and one eight team 1st division. one round of games and the premier splits 8/4, those 4 and the First division then split into North and south with their accumulated points which would need to be weighted to reflect games played etc. Its than a case of repeating the year one formula.
The two bottom clubs of the regional divisions to play off for a re-election place.
I`ll get my anorak.

[mypost]

How about South America for inspiration; some kind of Apertura - Clausura (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apertura_and_Clausura) based system.

Play each other once (home and away), but for opening, closing and overall championships. Overall champion qualifies for cl.

Some combination of 6-8 teams play off for 2 el slots (going further down for setanta spots)

2nd and 3rd overall, and next 2 highest from opening and closing championships.

With similarly styled system for relegation, if there somewhere to be relegated to.

Messy, very messy.

When you have clubs complaining they can't/couldn't win the league/stay up because they had the extra away game in x series/were away to their rivals in the run-in, it would be swiftly binned. On a personal level, I detest playoffs at club and national level, and think your fate should be decided by whatever amount of games there are in the regular campaign, not on play off penalties/away goals or mad refs like in Paris.

The Argentinian format is a nice idea granted, but is too radical for a small, stubborn, set in it's ways operated league like the LOI.

[BonnieShels]

Messy, very messy.

When you have clubs complaining they can't/couldn't win the league/stay up because they had the extra away game in x series/were away to their rivals in the run-in, it would be swiftly binned. On a personal level, I detest playoffs at club and national level, and think your fate should be decided by whatever amount of games there are in the regular campaign, not on play off penalties/away goals or mad refs like in Paris.

The Argentinian format is a nice idea granted, but is too radical for a small, stubborn, set in it's ways operated league like the LOI.


So then you want the status quo?
Cos you like it, you like it, you like it, you like, like, like it?

[A N Mouse]

So then you want the status quo?
Cos you like it, you like it, you like it, you like, like, like it?

But as some one else said we need to start

nananananah
lookin all over the world..

[marinobohs]

[QUOTE=Dalymountrower;1622538]Some interesting models suggested in the thread.

I think that it is accepted by everyone interested in LO1 football even the FAI that the current model is unsustainable. I do share the view that there needs to be a more realistic opportunity for traditional football areas like Athlone, Waterford, Harps Cobh etc to aspire to top flite status without having to spend big and bust and that the model should be sufficiently attractive to tempt new or established junior clubs like Tralee , Westport, Newbridge, Mullingar into the structure .


if the "traditional football areas" want a place in the Premier division they should earn it - just as the clubs currently there have. people on here slag off UCD but they are proof that a so called non traditional football area can not alone reach the premier but stay there without in any way jepordising the future of the club.


The ONLY reason for considering a structural change to the League should be as an enhancement to the League overall, both Premier and First Division clubs and while there are interesting proposals on here I do not believe any restructure in isolation will dramtically improve the League overall.


as I said before, as part of a rebranding of the League I would support restructuring, as a stand alone it is simply rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

[peadar1987]

This might read like a dig at UCD, but because they are from a non-traditional football area, and don't have a great history of success, or that many fans, I think in a way it's easier for them to be sustainable. They don't have a rabid fan base or the weight of history pressuring them to overstretch themselves to achieve the positions they think are rightfully theirs. I think that's a large part of what ultimately did for clubs like Cork, Derry, Shams, Shels, and Bohs in the past.

It's clubs like these who really need licensing to be rigorously enforced for their own good, because it's easy to get carried away when you have all that history and passion behind you.

And the point has been made a thousand times that it's unfair on the sustainable clubs when others overspend, win a title on borrowed money, default on debts and go bust. It doesn't matter that the clubs ahead of UCD are different every year as they implode one after another, the table still shows the Students in lower mid table most seasons.

Get licensing sorted first (and the suggestion of getting someone like De Montfort Uni in to work out something intelligent and enforceable mightn't be a bad one. God knows the FAI and the clubs seem incapable of doing it themselves), and the solid foundation will be there to start building up the type of sustainable league we want.

[bluemovie]

if the "traditional football areas" want a place in the Premier division they should earn it - just as the clubs currently there have. people on here slag off UCD but they are proof that a so called non traditional football area can not alone reach the premier but stay there without in any way jepordising the future of the club.


The ONLY reason for considering a structural change to the League should be as an enhancement to the League overall, both Premier and First Division clubs and while there are interesting proposals on here I do not believe any restructure in isolation will dramtically improve the League overall.


as I said before, as part of a rebranding of the League I would support restructuring, as a stand alone it is simply rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.


I doubt anyone thinks it would be a magic bullet solution. I presume everybody agrees with you that there are loads of other things need fixing too and I'd obviously much rather us actually earn promotion on the field, but if we did, I still wouldn't want to see Harps, Longford, Athlone and let's say Dundalk rotting in a seven team Graveyard. I genuinely think it would enhance the league as a whole. It would be the boost that could save certain clubs and it could make the league a more attractive proposition overall. One of the main reasons the league is seen as a joke is because so many clubs go bust/drop out and that's only accelerating. It'd be fair enough to keep two divisions if there were 24 decent clubs with strong teams entering the First Division, but that's just not happening. As it stands, it's been a case of 'Premier Division club goes bust, First Division clubs bear the brunt'.


Not as good as teams like Sporting Fingal?


Another example of a team dying in the premier division. As Monaghan, Dublin City, Cork and Derry have shown. (Shut up Derry and Cork fans, we all kow what happened)


My point was that they were already overspending crazily in their promotion (and cup-winning) season with the likes of Zayed and Gary O'Neill in the First Division. All water under the bridge now, but just making the point that it's difficult to win promotion while keeping a steady ship if you're up against a pipe dream with inflated spending power.

[Dodge]

My point was that they were already overspending crazily in their promotion (and cup-winning) season with the likes of Zayed and Gary O'Neill in the First Division. All water under the bridge now, but just making the point that it's difficult to win promotion while keeping a steady ship if you're up against a pipe dream with inflated spending power.

its a fair point, but Fingal not the worst example as they ultimately left with no debts. Unlike many others in the premier league. Of course it was unsustainable, but I think there'll always be clubs who think they can overspend their way to success, regardless of the structure

[marinobohs]

This might read like a dig at UCD, but because they are from a non-traditional football area, and don't have a great history of success, or that many fans, I think in a way it's easier for them to be sustainable. They don't have a rabid fan base or the weight of history pressuring them to overstretch themselves to achieve the positions they think are rightfully theirs. I think that's a large part of what ultimately did for clubs like Cork, Derry, Shams, Shels, and Bohs in the past.

It's clubs like these who really need licensing to be rigorously enforced for their own good, because it's easy to get carried away when you have all that history and passion behind you.

And the point has been made a thousand times that it's unfair on the sustainable clubs when others overspend, win a title on borrowed money, default on debts and go bust. It doesn't matter that the clubs ahead of UCD are different every year as they implode one after another, the table still shows the Students in lower mid table most seasons.

Get licensing sorted first (and the suggestion of getting someone like De Montfort Uni in to work out something intelligent and enforceable mightn't be a bad one. God knows the FAI and the clubs seem incapable of doing it themselves), and the solid foundation will be there to start building up the type of sustainable league we want.

If not having many fans were an advantage we would have one of the best/strongest Leagues in Europe :cool: Clubs overstretch in order to win the League (or cups) and one division or two has no impact on that.

Licencing etc does need to be tightened but that is a completely seperate issue to league restructuring. So far we still have no rational for change except to provide a few bigger gates for some First Division clubs (probobly at a loss for some Premier clubs). That is no basis for change and simply papers over the cracks in the First Division (until of course they become the problems of the Premier Division).

[peadar1987]

If not having many fans were an advantage we would have one of the best/strongest Leagues in Europe :cool: Clubs overstretch in order to win the League (or cups) and one division or two has no impact on that.

It's not necessarily an advantage on the field of play, but as I said, it does remove some of the pressure to overspend. If Bohs were finishing in UCD's position every season, there would be a large proportion of Bohs fans who would be demanding better. It's hard for a board and a manager to ignore that and do the right thing. That is not to say that smaller clubs still can't be managed badly, of course.



Licencing etc does need to be tightened but that is a completely seperate issue to league restructuring. So far we still have no rational for change except to provide a few bigger gates for some First Division clubs (probobly at a loss for some Premier clubs). That is no basis for change and simply papers over the cracks in the First Division (until of course they become the problems of the Premier Division).

I know, I was replying to your post about "Traditional Football Areas", not to the opening post.

Even as a supporter of the original unrelegatable club, I don't want a seven-team graveyard of a first division. In my opinion, if domestic football in this country ever to expand and develop, it needs to improve its image. Seven teams playing each other 4+ times a season in a joke of a second flight isn't going to do that any good. We either need more clubs, or to return to a single division for a couple of seasons, until the league can get its house in order. No, it's not a panacea, but for me, it's the best option in the short term.

[Macy]

Licencing etc does need to be tightened but that is a completely seperate issue to league restructuring. So far we still have no rational for change except to provide a few bigger gates for some First Division clubs (probobly at a loss for some Premier clubs). That is no basis for change and simply papers over the cracks in the First Division (until of course they become the problems of the Premier Division).
Licencing isn't a completely seperate issue - would be where we are if it had ever been done properly? Monaghan going bust mid season, on top of others in recent seasons is what's left the first unsustainable. Sporting Fingal being able to get around licencing to earn promotion, kept other sustainable clubs down. It's part of the context which has left us where we are.

Ideally any changes would be properly researched and would be accompanied with a PR blitz. Unfortunately the FAI doesn't seem to have the capabilities to do either. Even if the latter can be as little as just keep on putting up people for TV and Radio stations, which are desperate for easy content.

[gormacha]

Clubs overstretch in order to win the League (or cups) and one division or two has no impact on that.

That's true, but the impact of overspending has a disproportionate impact on FD clubs. The clubs that go belly up are pretty much always PD clubs at the time, and the trend in recent years has been to then leave the PD untouched, whilst reducing the numbers of FD clubs to accomodate the loss of the PD outfit, until we find ourselves in this current mess.


Licencing etc does need to be tightened but that is a completely seperate issue to league restructuring. So far we still have no rational for change except to provide a few bigger gates for some First Division clubs (probobly at a loss for some Premier clubs). That is no basis for change and simply papers over the cracks in the First Division (until of course they become the problems of the Premier Division).

I think this view is very problematic. These aren't the "problems of the FD" - the lack of FD numbers is, in part at least, a problem caused by PD clubs that go bust. In that sense it is a LOI problem. The divisions must be seen as a functioning whole (or non-functioning, as the case may be at the moment).

In posts from earlier in the year, I vehemently argued against playoffs or indeed any expression of competition that doesn't recognise the integrity of a league system. To me, that's one of the defining characteristics of football. As an extension of that, I don't agree - or want - unearned promotion, even and especially for my own club. But what a single division, guaranteed for, say, three seasons gives all clubs is some sort of stability, and an ability to do some planning, or pause for breath whilst long term planning takes place. FD clubs cannot plan on this level of uncertainty, even the well run ones, and they are reasonably well run or else they'd have folded by now.

Done in conjunction with, as I've argued earlier, a serious, heavyweight piece of genuinely independent research that looks at the possible league models socially contextualised, with an undertaking to put a long term development plan in place during that three year moratorium, would be the radical shift people are looking for. You can't expect th eradical shift to occur in a vacuum. It needs a medium term shoring up of stability, so that we don't lose clubs while in the act of proper planning, which does take time.

The reason I suggested an organisation like De Montford doing it is that they probably don't align themselves with the managerialist nonsense that a Deloittes or whoever would bring to such research. They specialise in the historical contextualisation of sport, and therefore could comment not on just the various league models themselves, but on why they work in that particular context, and how that context differs or not from Ireland. Such a research group would also report openly and honestly, as the research is likely to be a one-off and they don't have to deal with any of the stakeholders thereafter, nor would they have to play politics with whoever would want to interfere. We desperately need an extrenal voice to say, "here's how it could be done. Here's how it has been done elsewhere" rather than the interminal half-baked discussions about "I think Norway [or whoever, delete according to taste] did it this way. Would it work here though? I don't know. Interesting though, isn't it?"

[marinobohs]

Licencing isn't a completely seperate issue - would be where we are if it had ever been done properly? Monaghan going bust mid season, on top of others in recent seasons is what's left the first unsustainable. Sporting Fingal being able to get around licencing to earn promotion, kept other sustainable clubs down. It's part of the context which has left us where we are.

Ideally any changes would be properly researched and would be accompanied with a PR blitz. Unfortunately the FAI doesn't seem to have the capabilities to do either. Even if the latter can be as little as just keep on putting up people for TV and Radio stations, which are desperate for easy content.

Monaghan and Sporting Fingal were both Premier clubs at the time they went bust. The problems of the FD are not related to their going bust but to the LOI solution of filling the gaps from (potential) FD clubs - through additional promotion and/or no relegation.

Would a single Division have "saved" Fingal ? No. Monaghan ? no again. Galway ? see previous answer. Would it have prevented the problems Shams, Shels, Cork Bohs etc got themselves into ? Of course not.


Clubs can and have gone bust in a single division entity so it is no solution to clubs going bust. Proper rigourous licencing is probobly the best/only deterrent and that can/cant apply irrespective of the number of Divisions.

[Spudulika]

I wouldn't be totally in favour of somewhere like Monfort coming in to research this as we have plenty of quality expertise in Ireland, in fact we have far better expertise than in the UK. It doesn't matter what is done, whether by a private company or University or Barack Obama, Irish football is extremely dysfunctional and the FAI have neither the will nor the bottle to take on constructive changes. As everyone who has posted here, and on other threads, has agreed, changing the league structure means nothing if it's just moving clubs from one division to the next or into one big dollop of a division. The only thing that matters is having a viable, sustainable and productive league system - which feeds up into the national team and generates opportunities for those not fortunate enough to get full-time contracts abroad (this is a hot topic admittedly).

The first step the FAI needs to do, in my opinion, is extremely radical, may well be contended by me feiners under EU law, but one which will generate income to support football in the country and not destroy young footballers as it does now. Each footballer, no matter where they're from in the country, is contracted to the FAI. If the FAI own the contracts of each player in the country (Irish) then they can ensure proper treatment, the self-generating publicity seekers in the PFAI are redundant, and clubs cannot overspend as all contracts are centralised.

How is this good?
1. It helps simplify licencing - the FAI knows how much each player gets, the clubs know it too, so there's no discussion (feeling sad already for Sligo and Rovers fans if this is the case), it also allows for a proper salary cap.
2. It prevents schoolboy clubs (I almost said "prostituting" but that's too harsh) youngsters out to English clubs and grabbing what they can. Any player who leaves, the fee comes back to the FAI who can then divvy it out, as well as keep a chunk for general development.
3. It builds a development system in and of itself - which flows over into the game.

The FAI is our governing body, it is a mish-mash of "stakeholders" who have their own vested interests, not football, and not the healthy development of it's participants. They have a real chance to do something now, make a real difference and deliver.

[peadar1987]

I suppose the obvious Irish candidate to carry out a proper study would probably be UL, but, and this is just a personal thing, I'd prefer it not to be carried out by someone who could have accusations of bias thrown at them, whether they were justified or not. And that unfotunately means looking outside of Ireland.


I do approve of central contracts in principle, but:

-The FAI are a famously incompetent and biased organisation. I wouldn't trust them to hold central contracts. Imagine what they would have done to Limerick over Barcelona-gate if they had held the contracts of all their players!

-Wouldn't a move like this require the votes of all the various squabbling entities in Irish football? So even if it is a good idea, it's never going to happen?

[peadar1987]

Would a single Division have "saved" Fingal ? No. Monaghan ? no again. Galway ? see previous answer. Would it have prevented the problems Shams, Shels, Cork Bohs etc got themselves into ? Of course not.


Not at all, but there are other bad things that can happen to a club apart from going bust.

Would a single division have prevented the lacklustre crowds and a general lack of interest that seems prevalent in the First Division this season? It might well have. And that would have been to the benefit of the LOI as a whole.

[Spudulika]

I suppose the obvious Irish candidate to carry out a proper study would probably be UL, but, and this is just a personal thing, I'd prefer it to be carried out by someone who could have accusations of bias thrown at them, whether they were justified or not. And that unfotunately means looking outside of Ireland.


I do approve of central contracts in principle, but:

-The FAI are a famously incompetent and biased organisation. I wouldn't trust them to hold central contracts. Imagine what they would have done to Limerick over Barcelona-gate if they had held the contracts of all their players!

-Wouldn't a move like this require the votes of all the various squabbling entities in Irish football? So even if it is a good idea, it's never going to happen.

Agreed on the bias thing being thrown at UL, or UCD, QUB might be good. Though no matter what is done it'll be bitched about.

Agreed too on the incompetence of the FAI, however......this is something they can tie in with the government (under some sort of system aligned to social welfare, department of health etc) so that there is oversight provided. Again, it's whether anyone can be trusted. So then the only thing to do is for the FAI to set up a holding company of sorts for this enterprise. And if they did try to mess with Limerick (for that example) they would be destroyed in court as all the clubs and entities would be affected.

I don't know if it requires the agreement of all parts of the FAI, though I'm sure enough of them would go for it. It may be possible to read down as a dictat, though legality issues could arise. For sure the government couldn't step in, though if anyone can sell it, JD can.

[Macy]

Monaghan and Sporting Fingal were both Premier clubs at the time they went bust. The problems of the FD are not related to their going bust but to the LOI solution of filling the gaps from (potential) FD clubs - through additional promotion and/or no relegation
It's all part of the same problem - clubs going bust is a licencing problem, which has lead to the 1st being unsustainable. Even the fact that they couldn't get clubs to come up is supposedly due to licencing. Nothing is in isolation as you suggested earlier.


Licencing etc does need to be tightened but that is a completely seperate issue to league restructuring.


Clubs can and have gone bust in a single division entity so it is no solution to clubs going bust. Proper rigourous licencing is probobly the best/only deterrent and that can/cant apply irrespective of the number of Divisions.
I don't see a single division as a long term solution. It's a short term fire fighting measure because as things stand, we have only 7 teams in the 1st for next year which isn't sustainable.

Long term I'm in favour of something more radical than x teams in the premier, y in the 1st division. I've put forward a possible structure, but I'd prefer a credible outside organisation to do proper research and produce a proposal, and for the FAI to be strong enough to implement and support and market that proposal.

btw I wouldn't see UL. Maybe it's due to the rantings of it's former president, but my perception would be of an ideologically bias from that University.

[Sam_Heggy]

Bertie Ahern will sort this sh!t out, sure look at how he sorted the country out...

[Longfordian]

What's Roy Dooney up to these days?

[gormacha]

UL, or UCD, QUB might be good.

Might they have the skills? Possibly. But they'd all be accused of bias. If it were done, it has to be someone outside of Ireland. And in my view, it would be best done by a University department that has a longstanding reputation of research excellence. The reason I would tout for a Uni to do it over a private research company is the latter are all too often employed to come up with, or support an implicit, "business plan" as their main research objective. This is important, sure, but what I think we need is an analysis of the historical socio-economic and cultural context of why certain models work in the way that they do.

All pie in the sky of course. I don't think the FAI would spend the cash, or have the foresight to get it done properly.

[peadar1987]

Might they have the skills? Possibly. But they'd all be accused of bias. If it were done, it has to be someone outside of Ireland. And in my view, it would be best done by a University department that has a longstanding reputation of research excellence. The reason I would tout for a Uni to do it over a private research company is the latter are all too often employed to come up with, or support an implicit, "business plan" as their main research objective. This is important, sure, but what I think we need is an analysis of the historical socio-economic and cultural context of why certain models work in the way that they do.

All pie in the sky of course. I don't think the FAI would spend the cash, or have the foresight to get it done properly.

You could always email them and suggest it. The worst they'll do is continue to do the same as they're doing now!

[BonnieShels]

Bertie Ahern will sort this sh!t out, sure look at how he sorted the country out...

Now now. Don't speak ill of the dead.

Edit: I cannot believe that this was my 5000th post. Fack!

[Flexy]

How is there a future for the league when we have a crowd of CLOWNS who run it. DCFC this month arranged to postpone its match with St Pats due to Pats being in Europe with the condition that DCFC would not be disadvantaged. To our amazement what have the league done, they send us twice travelling to Dublin in 4 days, tonight against Shelbourne and then away to Pats on Monday night. Ridiculous as it might seem, we then find out guess what PATS HAVE NO GAME TONIGHT so they have extra days rest and no travel. So we help PATS and help try and improve the leagues Cooefficent and get punished as a result. The quicker fans of the league we love get these moroons out the better they couldnt organise anything

[Charlie Darwin]

Does the league decide the dates for rescheduled fixtures or the clubs?

[Dodge]

How is there a future for the league when we have a crowd of CLOWNS who run it. DCFC this month arranged to postpone its match with St Pats due to Pats being in Europe with the condition that DCFC would not be disadvantaged. To our amazement what have the league done, they send us twice travelling to Dublin in 4 days, tonight against Shelbourne and then away to Pats on Monday night. Ridiculous as it might seem, we then find out guess what PATS HAVE NO GAME TONIGHT so they have extra days rest and no travel. So we help PATS and help try and improve the leagues Cooefficent and get punished as a result. The quicker fans of the league we love get these moroons out the better they couldnt organise anything
Ah would you stop, you were getting beat either way ;)

It was known at the time that Pats had no game too. You only find out today?


Does the league decide the dates for rescheduled fixtures or the clubs?
League, but its not unilateral

[Flexy]

Hold on a minute Dodge, we helped yous out by agreeing to postpone the game.

Now the league only told us this week that the game had to be played on Monday as there are no alternative dates available between now and end of season ( A load of Tosh ).

Without having your St Pats glasses on, would you be happy if the tables were turned and having two 300 mile round trips in a space of 4 days and knowing your oppenents had a good rest. Dont think so

[Dodge]

Without having your St Pats glasses on, would you be happy if the tables were turned and having two 300 mile round trips in a space of 4 days and knowing your oppenents had a good rest. Dont think so

I certainly wouldn't be moaning about it on the internet. These things happen. The one game rest means nothing. In the past 6 weeks I'd say Pats have had twice the games Derry have had. A game tonight isn't that big a deal.

Couldn't be next Monday as there's league games
Couldn't be the following one as there could be cup replays
Couldn't be the week after as Pats/Rovers moved to midweek for league cup

So do you not think this Monday was as good as any?

[marinobohs]

Not at all, but there are other bad things that can happen to a club apart from going bust.

Would a single division have prevented the lacklustre crowds and a general lack of interest that seems prevalent in the First Division this season? It might well have. And that would have been to the benefit of the LOI as a whole.

Not a lot much worse for a club than going bust Peadar :eek:

Would a single Division have led to smaller gates for some (current) Prem clubs games (home game V Wexford Youths replacing homne game V shams) ?

While I do not disagree with a single Division concept the only rationale todate has been a couple of bigger gates for First Division clubs (probobly at the expense of Prem club gates).

Sorry, but this does not benifit the LOI as a whole and furthermore allows the authorities to avoid making the hard decisions required that might benifit the LOI as a whole.

[marinobohs]

Does the league decide the dates for rescheduled fixtures or the clubs?

league has to ratify any fixture. Following Bohs, ahem, endeavours in Iceland (dont mention the war) we sought to move our League game to Monday night. Our opponents UCD were happy enough to change but the Abbotstown jobworths refused to sanction it and insisted the match go ahead on Sunday afternoon -apparently it would break some (unspecified) rule :confused:

[Dodge]

Cork and Bray looked to move their League game (next monday) to the following Frday as they were both free (out of the cup). League didn't allow it

[Mr A]

I think there's a rule that says a game can't be moved within 2 weeks it being due to be played. Can't find a link to the rules to check mind you. If clubs don't like this I'm sure they can propose a change.

[Dodge]

I think there's a rule that says a game can't be moved within 2 weeks it being due to be played. Can't find a link to the rules to check mind you. If clubs don't like this I'm sure they can propose a change.

Fairly certain that 2 week rule is flaunted quite a bit around the European games.

[gufc2000]

CROSS-BORDER LEAGUES: UEFA PRESIDENT Michel Platini said yesterday that depending on how an experiment with the women’s senior game in Belgium and the Netherlands turns out, the organisation could change its stance on cross-Border leagues over the coming seasons, something that could have enormous implications for the future of the Airtricity League.

A shift in policy would open the door to initiatives like the Celtic League proposal, a competition involving leading clubs from the likes of Ireland (North and South), Scotland and Wales, that was floated a few years ago but which failed to gain the necessary support, in part because of the lack of Uefa approval and fear that the status of the participating countries’ separate national teams might be undermined.

Now, however, with an increasing number of leagues struggling due to the international financial climate and many lacking the depth required to make them genuinely competitive, Platini has said a major change in policy might be only a few years away.

As part of their attempt to assess the implications of permitting difficult leagues to merge at the highest level, Uefa has sanctioned the women’s senior league in Belgium and the Netherlands to be played on a cross-border basis, with the leading teams from each country at the end of the campaign progressing to the Champions League.

At present the BeNe League project is intended to run for three years after which, Platini says, it will be assessed and a wider discussion can take place on the desirability of merging leagues elsewhere across Europe.

“We have to decide whether to allow two leagues to play together,” he said at a press conference in Monaco yesterday. “At the moment we don’t allow it but in the future it’s possible that we will.

“There are many things to be considered; it has an effect on European competitions and it’s really complicated but there are crises in many countries and so there are leagues that fear for their existence and so it is something that we need to consider.”

If the changes are ultimately approved, the transformation of club rugby in recent years could serve as a rough model, with clubs from participating countries, such as the “Celtic nations” forming a “superleague” style top flight with regional , or national, lower divisions and movement between the two via some form of promotion/relegation and play-offs.

Over the last few years a variety of proposals that included Norway, Denmark and Sweden as well as Scotland and possibly Ireland have been floated and Uefa could see such changes as a way of revitalising the professional game outside of the continent’s major leagues like England, Spain, Italy, Germany and France.

“It’s an interesting experiment and something that everyone will be following with a lot of interest,” said Airtricity League director Fran Gavin yesterday.

But, he suggested, the FAI’s most immediate interest is its own women’s game.

“It’s an area that you might develop,” he said, “if you didn’t have enough teams or the required quality to develop the game here.”

Shamrock Rovers chairman Jonathan Roche was more taken with the possibilities for a senior men’s game that is embroiled in yet another, sometimes acrimonious, debate over league structures. “I think even without Scotland or Wales it could be a positive thing because it could open the door to an all-Ireland league,” he said. “I think the IFA are fairly attached to their national team and I can’t really see them letting it go but I think they’d be far more inclined to give up the league if it was all going to be done within the structures of Uefa.

“I know it’s a different sport but if you look at the RaboDirect Pro 12, I think you can see the wider possibilities and if Scotland were involved this could be far more than just a shot in the arm for the Irish game. They have a football industry over there and a game like Dundee United against Cork City would have a real appeal.”

Ultimately, the proposal could give rise to a number of regional leagues across the continent and might even result in some of the championships that were dismantled in the wake of the break up of Eastern Bloc being partially reconstituted. There, as here, more competitive games would be seen as a way of rekindling public interest in watching games live and generating greater revenues http://b-static.net/vbulletin/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif



From the Irish Times.

Platini is very keen to have a major legacy left from his tenure as Uefa President, this following on from his proposal of having the European Championships played across different cities.

[Dodge]

Love the idea that clubs vote against a reserve league on the basis of costs but will join a league that involves them flying to games 10-15 times a season

[gufc2000]

Whatever about an All-Ireland League, I certainly wouldn't be in favour of having a Celtic League. What works well in rugby may not apply to soccer.

I can't see the prospect of Cork City vs Motherwell or Derry City vs The New Saints attracting any more fans to games than present. It could eventually lead to franchise footballl, with clubs with proud histories having to give way.

[Dodge]

It could eventually lead to franchise footballl, with clubs with proud histories having to give way.

I'm sure the irony of a Galway fan posting this isn't lost

[peadar1987]

Whatever about an All-Ireland League, I certainly wouldn't be in favour of having a Celtic League. What works well in rugby may not apply to soccer.

I can't see the prospect of Cork City vs Motherwell or Derry City vs The New Saints attracting any more fans to games than present. It could eventually lead to franchise footballl, with clubs with proud histories having to give way.

I like the idea. More clubs, larger market, more money. Plus it would give the Irish clubs a golden opportunity to revamp their image. A huge advertising campaign would look a lot better if it promised a new and exciting product. And from what I've heard from Scottish supporters, they're pretty jaded from constant trips to the Greater Glasgow area, and would love the chance for a few weekends away in Dublin, Galway or Cork. They'd probably travel in pretty large numbers.

I could see this starting as a cup competition first though, if it happens at all. People will want a testing ground. Hopefully it will work out better than the underhyped, underwhelming Setanta Cup did.

[Macy]

Pretty lazy comparison to Rugby. Fans might be running clubs, but the song remains the same.

Setanta Cup really shows that an All Ireland league is even less likely to be the solution than an internal restructuring. I do think it's the way forward, but watch the clubs that argue against a bigger or single division LoI, queue up for an All Ireland league with games against household names such as Ballinamallard United and/or resist a smaller "superleague" type entity.

[gormacha]

I can't see what the attraction of such a league would be to, for example, SPL clubs. Say what you like about Scottish football (and I'm not a fan myself), but they have a fully functioning, internally coherent football culture. They might like the idea of an away cup trip to Ireland, but that'd be about it.

Iinteresting to see the Shamrock Rovers's Chairman making an essentially similar argument for a cross-national league as our own FD clubs are currently making for a single division.

[Macy]

I can't see what the attraction of such a league would be to, for example, SPL clubs. Say what you like about Scottish football (and I'm not a fan myself), but they have a fully functioning, internally coherent football culture. They might like the idea of an away cup trip to Ireland, but that'd be about it.
I suppose the context for SPL clubs would be that such a move from UEFA would open the way for Celtic and Rangers to join the English league system. Actually, it could open up a huge can of worms - why would only smaller leagues take advantage of it?

[Charlie Darwin]

There is no possibility a Celtic "league" could happen without an intermediate cup competition. I think the Setanta Cup was, in part, a testing ground for the possibility of a cross-border league that has failed.

Scottish clubs would never get on board with a Celtic league unless Rangers and Celtic were involved, but even so they would take a lot of convincing. With Rangers in the fourth tier though, now is probably the time to push for an experiment.