Clubs divided over future LOI format?

[Charlie Darwin]

[/B]
Never said it did. What I said is, if the likes of Shamrock Rovers or Sligo Rovers are getting big crowds..they will continue to do so if they're pushing for League honours.
1400 at Tallaght on Friday (and even that seems generous from where I was sitting) vs 5000 odd against Sligo on a Monday a couple of weeks back. Granted, one was a top of the table clash, but it shows the attractiveness of a clash does have a big effect on gates across the board. And Rovers would see a noticeable fall in average attendances from a league expansion - even with Shels and Cork coming up this year, the average is still down.

[gormacha]

As regards Waterford, getting beaten 8-1 by Rovers (and other PD clubs on a regular basis) as they did this year, is not going to pull in the crowds of either side. Waterford Utd were kept up in the Premier Division for a number of years due to other clubs issues, until they finally went down in 2007. Clearly they think they should still be entitled to a piece of the Premier pie. Sadly for them, they'll have to earn it like everyone else. That's life.

That's really disengenuous. This has nothing to do with a sense of "entitlement". It's a genuine issue of club survival. And not just ours. Have a giggle if you wish about our awful pre-season, but the fact remains that FD clubs are dieing the death of a thousand cuts.

[peadar1987]

I definitely get the impression that there is less traffic on here than there used to be.

In relation to the idea of one division- I think the key argument is that the first division is simply running out of clubs. An 8 team league is pretty awful but anything below that is just going to be utterly unsustainable. But then I don't think many people within the league care about the lower flight, never mind within the FAI.

I can't speak for others, but in my case it's purely down to emigration. The only threads I can really contribute to at the moment are the "how to fix the league" ones. I can't really make many valid and insightful points about Dane Massey's positional sense when I haven't seen a Bray game in over a year.

On the league structure, my current personal preference would be for a single top flight, large enough to have all of the "big" teams in. And by a big team, I mean a team with enough facilities and liabilities to need the revenue of playing in the top flight. Below that, you'd have a regionalised division one, possibly division two further down the line, with minimal licensing requirements in terms of facilities, designed to allow teams to compete in the LOI pyramid without breaking the bank. Below that, junior clubs affiliated with LOI clubs. Sure, you'd have a few duff teams, but I'd be more likely to pay money to see SD Galway, Crumlin United, Pike Rovers and Fanad than SD Galway four times, if only for the variety. And let's face it, no matter who joins the league, it's impossible for them to have too much less support than Mervue!

Will it happen? Honestly, I think junior clubs enjoy being big fish in small ponds far too much to want to suddenly to be playing in the second tier, and give up their positions of power, no matter how petty, to be part of something that could be truly beneficial for football in Ireland

[osarusan]

The clubs are always (and rightly, in my opinion) going to want what's best for themselves. I can't see any other reason for Rovers (apparently) wanting a 10 team premier and 1st division clubs wanting the premier expanded. I'm not sure there is one idea of 'best interests of the league' which all clubs will ever agree on.

I get the argument that bigger clubs to play against will mean that the crowds at the weaker clubs will rise, but that improvement will be cancelled out by the reduction of corwds at the top clubs. If we're just talking about a way to ensure no clubs go bust, then an expanded premier would probably help, but I don't see that it would lead to general improvement at all levels.

As we're unlikely to ever get the clubs to agree on things, what's needed is for the FAI to do some serious research into how things are done elsewhere, and what the effects have been at stronger and weaker clubs, and how things could still have been improved on. With the research done, they just implement the new structure, and the clubs have no choice. However, I doubt the FAI have either the money or inclination to do it, and even if they did the research, they'd probably find that very very few of the LOI's problems will be solved by the implementation of a new league structure alone, and that problems like relationships with junior leagues, facilities, and amateurs running the clubs are for more serious problems.

[mypost]

In fairness, that was pre-season and a completely different shaped Waterford team now.

A week later in a single division championship and it would be a league game. That would be par for the course for the current lower league clubs in a single division. That's not helpful either.


This has nothing to do with a sense of "entitlement". It's a genuine issue of club survival. And not just ours. Have a giggle if you wish about our awful pre-season, but the fact remains that FD clubs are dieing the death of a thousand cuts.

It is everything to do with entitlement. There are no free passes for Waterford or other clubs to the PD anymore. If you get there, it's because you earned the right to be there. They haven't done it yet, and will have to keep at it until they earn it.

I wouldn't be in favour of a ten-team division or a single division. I would be more in favour of an expanded lower division, with just 2 rounds of games. There is no incentive for lower league clubs to be playing games in July and August. There is no interest among players or fans, and none of them are playing in Europe. They would be better off going on an extended mid-season break, and saving themselves money...

[geezer]

Id give my right arm to see GUFC in any division right now, regardless of how many teams are in it.

Maybe the costs of participation could be looked at. Hard to see how any league can truly function properly without relegation
Been banished completely out of senior football completely is a nightmare i wouldnt wish on my worst enemy, even 7 years in the first division seems like heaven now

[Dodge]

Been banished completely out of senior football completely is a nightmare i wouldnt wish on my worst enemy

Would you wish it on Mervue or Salthill? ;)

[gormacha]

It is everything to do with entitlement. There are no free passes for Waterford or other clubs to the PD anymore. If you get there, it's because you earned the right to be there. They haven't done it yet, and will have to keep at it until they earn it.


Well, that's your view, and I doubt any amount of discussion will convince you otherwise. Just to reiterate though, while you continue to see this as clubs trying to shortcut their way to the PD, and effectively tell them to "earn it", they will go out of business. If you're a hardline free marketeer, you may well think, "good". But this isn't a free market. A FD with seven clubs is structurally hamstrung so that no club with a senior infrastructure could survive. Ironically, it is Salthill and Mervue who are best equipped to survive in such a scenario.


I wouldn't be in favour of a ten-team division or a single division. I would be more in favour of an expanded lower division, with just 2 rounds of games. There is no incentive for lower league clubs to be playing games in July and August. There is no interest among players or fans, and none of them are playing in Europe. They would be better off going on an extended mid-season break, and saving themselves money...

For two rounds of games to be viable the FD would need to be expanded to sixteen clubs. I don't think this requires a line by line rebuttal to show that it is impossible and undesirable.

And as for taking July and August off, well, the FD clubs have already said it is the exact opposite they need. They don't even want the current short mid-season break as it is, as they lose income.

[geezer]

Would you wish it on Mervue or Salthill? ;)

No.

Galway United supporters trust fc V Mervue on this Saturday at 7.30 at the spiritual home of Galway United Eamonn Deacy Park Terryland

www.galwaysoccer.com

[marinobohs]

The clubs are always (and rightly, in my opinion) going to want what's best for themselves. I can't see any other reason for Rovers (apparently) wanting a 10 team premier and 1st division clubs wanting the premier expanded. I'm not sure there is one idea of 'best interests of the league' which all clubs will ever agree on.

I get the argument that bigger clubs to play against will mean that the crowds at the weaker clubs will rise, but that improvement will be cancelled out by the reduction of corwds at the top clubs. If we're just talking about a way to ensure no clubs go bust, then an expanded premier would probably help, but I don't see that it would lead to general improvement at all levels.

As we're unlikely to ever get the clubs to agree on things, what's needed is for the FAI to do some serious research into how things are done elsewhere, and what the effects have been at stronger and weaker clubs, and how things could still have been improved on. With the research done, they just implement the new structure, and the clubs have no choice. However, I doubt the FAI have either the money or inclination to do it, and even if they did the research, they'd probably find that very very few of the LOI's problems will be solved by the implementation of a new league structure alone, and that problems like relationships with junior leagues, facilities, and amateurs running the clubs are for more serious problems.

Spot on, Osarusan. Clubs will always look at narrow self interest (as will most supporters). The League needs complete overhaul and rebranding, if part of this is a one division league I would fully support it but simply introducing a one division league is not an adequate solution in itself (however much short term gain would arise for certain clubs). History shows that the clubs are incapable of embracing (in my opinion) the type/scale of change required and it needs an external driver - be that the FAI or some other party - to devise and drive the major change necessary.

It remains my opinion that without redical change the League will continue to deteriorate.

[bluemovie]

Waterford Utd were kept up in the Premier Division for a number of years due to other clubs issues, until they finally went down in 2007.


On a point of order, that happened once. In 2006, we came 11th in the Premier, but were deemed less worthy of a position the following season than Galway who finished 3rd in the first division, had a swish DVD and were seen as a model of sustainability run by, at the time, the world's most famous white collar criminal. Then the Shelegation saw us reprieved with a fortnight's notice for 2007.

[bluemovie]

I've never in the past been in favour of one division (even in the years we've been in the First), but I have to agree with others here that it looks like if it doesn't happen by design, it will happen by default. We will go bust pretty soon. I don't think it's mismanagement. We're just not viable in the current set-up and though I wouldn't be familiar with their accounts, I presume Athlone, Harps, Wexford and Longford aren't really viable either. I think the likes of Bray and Dundalk would understand that they wouldn't be viable in the current First Division either.

Just speaking for myself, I can't bear this season (not saying this is a reason for change, but it might show how difficult it is to spark interest in the Graveyard). We ended up with 28 games - eight of which are against Galway junior league teams. I've given up trying to persuade people to go to matches. I can barely motivate myself even though our players are trying their best, winning games and playing decent football which is probably as much as you could ask. Basically, this season is being fought out between the 4th, 5th and 6th best teams from last season and there isn't so much as the novelty of a new team or a team relegated from the Premier. Next season, we could well be in the same division except without Limerick. Not sure would we then have 24 games or 30 (playing each team 5 times). In that scenario, we would definitely have to pull out of the league or face going bust.

As regards clubs being in the First because they are badly-run, I can't agree. We'd be out of it years ago if we were badly-run! The closest we came was finishing three points behind Derry in 2010 when our chairman did decide to put in a lot of his own money to get the likes of Liam Kearney, but Derry with McClean et al were just too strong for us. We've come up against some very strong promotion rivals - Dundalk after years down, Cork and Derry were always Premier Division-quality, now it's Limerick's (long overdue) turn to splash the cash. Remember, there was also a little club called Sporting Fingal who spent loads, took a promotion spot and went bust. Having experienced both relegation battles and pushes in the recent past, I think it's an awful lot easier to stay in the Premier than it is to get into it.

I've a feeling there won't be any change until a few more teams go bust and the surviving 14 or 16 teams will gave to be amalgamated into one division. Now we still have a shot at promotion (Harps, Athlone don't unfortunately for them) so, yes, we can earn promotion and leave the rest to rot in the First, but I genuinely think one division would be the best thing for the sustainability of most clubs.

[Dodge]

As regards clubs being in the First because they are badly-run, I can't agree

Clubs are struggling because they're badly run. Clubs are in the first division because the teams they put on the pitch weren't good enough to gain promotion.

[bluemovie]

Clubs are struggling because they're badly run. Clubs are in the first division because the teams they put on the pitch weren't good enough to gain promotion.

Not as good as teams like Sporting Fingal?

[ltfc_2004]

Its tough as each clubs interests are totally at odds with each other. Premier Division clubs do not and will not want a single division as there is more money from a second game against Rovers,Pats, Bohs than playing Longford, Athlone or Harps.

First Division clubs think its a panacea playing the big clubs as it will increase gate receipts, TV exposure etc but I imagine with a single division some players at smaller clubs would be looking for pay increases and would probably nullify any increase in gate money or prize money.

Its time all the clubs were honest enough to set out their financial positions in public as to exactly what debts they currently hold and what plans they have to repay it or extend it. The league is a joke at this stage every few months another club is due to hit the wall and go bust. Who is next after Monaghan ? Maybe three years of a joint division might allow clubs some breathing space to get their books in some kind of order and pay off historical debt. At the end of the three years 12 teams are placed in the Premier Division and the rest in the First along with what ever number of teams will be needed to make up another 10 or 12. The clubs would be judged fairly in advance on both financial criteria and average placings over three years and all teams signing up to partake in a single division would know the rules in advance as would fans and tough **** if you don't make the 12, you knew the rules when you signed up. I know people want things decided on the field of play but its in the leagues long term interest to have 12 sustainable teams in its premier division.

on a personal note and being selfish as I live in Dublin, it would be great as a Longford Town fan if there was one Division as I would get to a lot more games .................

[mypost]

Well, that's your view, and I doubt any amount of discussion will convince you otherwise. Just to reiterate though, while you continue to see this as clubs trying to shortcut their way to the PD, and effectively tell them to "earn it", they will go out of business. If you're a hardline free marketeer, you may well think, "good". But this isn't a free market. A FD with seven clubs is structurally hamstrung so that no club with a senior infrastructure could survive.

It is LOI football, it is a free market. If Waterford fold*, somebody else will take their place. That's what has happened every year since 1922.


For two rounds of games to be viable the FD would need to be expanded to sixteen clubs. I don't think this requires a line by line rebuttal to show that it is impossible and undesirable.

And as for taking July and August off, well, the FD clubs have already said it is the exact opposite they need. They don't even want the current short mid-season break as it is, as they lose income.

There is no point imo, of forcing clubs like Waterford to travel to Finn Harps in the middle of July. There is no point in forcing Finn Harps to travel to Wexford at the same time of year. They cover more kilometres than spectators. Attendances at lower league games in summer are never in 4 figures, some of them barely make it 3 figures. No club in the league has to play in Europe, so what are they playing in the holiday season for?


On a point of order, that happened once. In 2006, we came 11th in the Premier, but were deemed less worthy of a position the following season than Galway who finished 3rd in the first division, had a swish DVD and were seen as a model of sustainability run by, at the time, the world's most famous white collar criminal. Then the Shelegation saw us reprieved with a fortnight's notice for 2007.

We were deducted 8 points in 2005, and finished 11th. Waterford stayed up for 2006 as a result.


We've come up against some very strong promotion rivals - Dundalk after years down, Cork and Derry were always Premier Division-quality, now it's Limerick's (long overdue) turn to splash the cash.

Dundalk had to face the lower division for 6 years. Shels 5, Cork 2, Limerick for 10+. And the last two had to form new clubs over the years. If they can do it the hard way, so can Waterford.


on a personal note and being selfish, it would be great as I would get to a lot more games .................

.....and that is the whole argument here in a nutshell.

*I don't think they will. It's just the latest in a long line of "Waterford are going bust" claims made over the years. They're still here, and they will be next year.

[bluemovie]

We were deducted 8 points in 2005, and finished 11th. Waterford stayed up for 2006 as a result.

Again, check your facts! Waterford finished 8th out of 12 that season. If it hadn't been for Rovers' points deduction, Pats would've been in the play-off - although I'm sure they probably would have beaten Dublin City over two legs.

New teams will replace those who go bust? We've gone from 22 to 19 clubs in recent years and the newest entrants (Salthill and Mervue) are rumoured to be rethinking their position. If a seven team First Division gets the go-ahead, that would mean 12 home games per season. Either that or playing the Galway junior teams FIVE times each. There is no way that is sustainable for Waterford, Harps, Athlone, Longford or a relegated Dundalk. If you think Tralee, Cobh, Carlow, Fanad will replace them one-by-one, why have none of them been able to match the licensing criteria of even a Salthill or a Mervue yet?

[jinxy lilywhite]

Personally i think the 10 team league and a switch to 12 team then a switch back to 10 has been done to its death. with the amount of clubs remaining the only logical short term solution to a this problem is for a one division league for 3 season. In the interim the FAI, the clubs and supporters groups along with TV stakeholders thrash out the best possible course for the league to take for clubs to enter the league under licensing criteria, clubs forced to develop medium to long term viable strategy in areas of community development, ground developments, addressing debt issues and each club dedicated to improving the image of the league.

I find it laughable that some supporters are giving out about the likes of the lowers coming up and playing in the one division but i feel that actually in this day and age we all need each others support to survive. Some clubs claim they will lose gates, i disagree, i think that the current structure has saturated the market of dublin derby after dublin derby and i think if there are only 2 league one, it may infact increase those attended games. all clubs attendences are **** and anything diffferent would be more than welcome in my unqualified opinion but i think the likes of dundalk, pats, bohs, derry, cork, both rovers need the athlones, longfords, ucds, drogheda, harps, wexford and waterford as much as they need us

The magic bullet solution of course would be for all our county councils to develop our grounds and put us into untapped areas like rovers found themselves in.

[placid casual]

The magic bullet solution of course would be for all our county councils to develop our grounds and put us into untapped areas like rovers found themselves in.

congratulations on stumbling(no doubt accidentally) on the real reason why the league of ireland will never flourish.
Bitterness, Jealousy and me fein-ism.

god forbid anyone should see the bigger picture:nerd:

[El-Pietro]

personally I would love if we had a 16 or 18 team division. One home and away against every team? yes please! magnifies those games. Only one trip to Dalymount a year? suddenly becomes a huge game that I won't want to miss. As things stand if I miss one I only have to wait a couple of months for the next trip.

Same for Tallaght, Tolka, Inchicore, the Brandywell, not so much the Showgrounds as I always have a miserable time there...

plus the one thing i miss from the first division is the away trips to places like Longford and Athlone. While I have no interest in going to Salthill or Mervue ever again, I'd love an annual trip to Galway to play at Terryland, Ballybofey, I wouldn't even mind going back to Gortakeegan so long as its only once a season. We got sick of playing them in the league cup on top of two league trips.

When we were last in the Premier it was a ten team league and we played Drogheda and Sligo something like 15 times combined between league cup and Setanta. It was insane. You get sick and tired of seeing the same clubs every month and a half.


edit: saying that - a situation without relegation can't be allowed to develop. Not for more than few years. Clubs need something to play for.

[Macy]

I still think some people are completely missing the context of the current situation. The argument for a single division has been floating around for 5 or 6 years, and there were pros and cons to that argument. However, we currently faced with the prospect of a 7 team division, with arguably only 5 sustainable clubs (arguable from the pov that 5 might too high!). Yes, I'd love to be playing the big teams, and have plenty of handy (for me) away games, but that is genuinely a side issue. I would rather earn promotion than be parachuted in.

[Dodge]

I still think some people are completely missing the context of the current situation.

To be fair, its just a debating shop. The argument wanders from 12/7 v 10/9 v 19 in a broader sense. The idea that clubs could die is, in my opnion, completely seperate as that can happen regardless of structure. fair enough you think its more closely linked than I do, but that doesn't mean all aras can't be discussed


Not as good as teams like Sporting Fingal?

Another example of a team dying in the premier division. As Monaghan, Dublin City, Cork and Derry have shown. (Shut up Derry and Cork fans, we all kow what happened)

[peadar1987]

Just throwing this out there, can anyone think of a way to give mid- to lower-table clubs something to fight for in the absence of relegation, without compromising the sporting integrity of the league (playoffs and the like?)

One thing I was thinking of is the American culture of awarding cups and prizes for individual games, sort of like the Calcutta Cup. Perhaps even if Athlone and Longford were out of the title race towards the end of the season, they might still fancy the chance to win the El Classico aggregate trophy (catchier name needed).

Edit: I've just realised that with 19 teams, there are (19*18)/2 potential two-legged ties, or 171 head-to-head cups to compete for. Probably so many that they'd lose all meaning.

[Real ale Madrid]

The fundamental issue of how much teams play players is ignored on most debates surrounding the Loi.
We pay players too much for what is essentally supposed to be an amateur league.

Another thing that always amazed me was the notion that you make more money on 18 home games a season rather than 15. Ignoring the fact that the importance of the games determines attendance in most cases. Personally I think the following might be a little off the wall - but might be worth a try. (similar to a previous thread)

2 x 10 team leagues
2 rounds of fixtures - meaning just 9 home games, 18 league games in Total.

Then the end of season play-off's :

1. Teams 1-4 play in the premier playoff for the Title of league champions - round robin, home and away. (the 18 league games could be carried forward in some way - In belgium they half the total number of points and round upwards e.g 34.5 = 35)

2. Teams 5-8 play for a chance to win a Europa league spot - round robin, home and away. The winner of this round robin group play's the 3rd place team in the championship play-off for the last remaining europa cup spot. ( home and away )

3.The teams placed 9 and 10 in the Premier play the 1st and 2nd team in the First division - round robin, home and away. Top 2 in this mini league earn promotion / stay in the premier.

4.Teams placed 3-6 in the first division playoff for a place in the Setanta Cup - this could be given here to incentivise the end of season.

5.Teams placed 7-10 playoff - round robin, home and away - the bottom team is relegated from the league. (An obvious problem is finding a way to feed into this division)

The big advantage I see in the system is that every single game is of vital importance. Every last one. Marketed correctly I think that 12 home games where every game is vital has the potential to make more money than if you play 18 home games and the last 5 - 8 games are dead rubbers.

A preseason type league cup league format would be a way of increasing the number of guarenteed home games - add in expanded Setanta cup and a 1st divison trophy ( like the old shield) and the season wouldn't even be all that short really.

Not everyone will agree, traditionalists will cower at the prospect of playoffs. But I think everyone agrees something radical needs to be done and quick.

[Dodge]

For the record I'd very much pro-play offs.

[pineapple stu]

We pay players too much for what is essentally supposed to be an amateur league.
The LoI isn't supposed to be an amateur league.

I don't know what anyone proposing a play-off system thinks it'll achieve. It's easy to say that we're a Big Occasion sporting nation, but if everything's a Big Occasion, that kind of falls in on itself. The problems with clubs is idiots running them, budgeting on income without it being confirmed. That's what needs to change for clubs to stop going broke, not play-offs.

I think years of seemingly random format tinkering has shown there isn't a magic solution to the public interest issue.

[El-Pietro]

the team that comes 5th potentially has a much easier shot of getting into europe than the team in 4th - and thats my problem with this layout

Say we take this season as an example, we'll assume the top 4 remains as Sligo, Pats, Drogs and Shamrock.

5th to 8th ends up as Derry City, Shelbourne, Cork City and Bohemian F.C.

If we take the current points totals and extrapolate them to a full (30 games) season then we get the following

1. Sligo Rovers - 64
2. Drogheda United - 51
3. St. Patricks Athletic - 51
4. Shamrock Rovers - 51
------------------------------
5. Derry City - 39
6. Bohemian FC - 36
7. Shelbourne - 35
8. Cork City - 34

Now in theory you have two very interesting play off stages between two sets of evenly matched teams. But the LOI gets 3 Europa League spots, and one of those is currently awarded to the FAI Cup winners.
So you would end up with Sligo as Champions, and one from St. Pats, Drogheda and Shamrock taking one Europa league spot with a second on offer to the highest placed team from the second set. Now the lowest of the top 4 finished 12 points clear of the highest of the second 4 in our example.

If you were in Shamrocks position around now, wouldn't you be better served by trying to drop into the second 4 to have in theory a better chance of getting into Europe? Even if you take the Europa league spot from the cup and give it to the top 4 teams you still end up with one team missing out.

What happens in a season where say Derry City have a total much closer to Shamrocks. Say they end of 49 points instead of 39. In the last few weeks of the season you have two teams on similar points totals in a situation where losing a game or two gives them a much better chance of getting into Europe as they would be playing off against much weaker opponents.

Of course this playoff system would work better if there were enough European spots for the top 4 plus the winner of the playoff for the second 4 without devaluing the FAI cup.

Perhaps you could resolve this by replacing Europe with the Setanta cup but right now it would appear that the Setanta just doesn't have the appeal (read: prize money)

[Real ale Madrid]

The LoI isn't supposed to be an amateur league.
.

Should the first division not be an amateur league though ?



I don't know what anyone proposing a play-off system thinks it'll achieve. It's easy to say that we're a Big Occasion sporting nation, but if everything's a Big Occasion, that kind of falls in on itself. The problems with clubs is idiots running them, budgeting on income without it being confirmed. That's what needs to change for clubs to stop going broke, not play-offs.

I think years of seemingly random format tinkering has shown there isn't a magic solution to the public interest issue.

There has been tinkering with the numbers of clubs - but nothing else really. Tinkering isn't what's needed anyway - the play-off systems I propose above, added to the major reduction in games is a completely new format, which has never been tried here before ( the spliting of the league in the mid 90's is completly different imo )

I'm not saying it will achieve anything - just postulating that it MIGHT bring in more revenue and it MIGHT reinvigorate the league. I think something like this is certainly worth a try and would be no worse than bundling in all 19 teams into 1 league.

Not every clubs have idiots running them - changes should be proposed to benefit those who are making a proper go of it.

Another point I forgot to mention earlier is I think it is easier to sell season tickets if the amount of games are reduced. Might be a more attractive to people.

[marinobohs]

the team that comes 5th potentially has a much easier shot of getting into europe than the team in 4th - and thats my problem with this layout

Say we take this season as an example, we'll assume the top 4 remains as Sligo, Pats, Drogs and Shamrock.

5th to 8th ends up as Derry City, Shelbourne, Cork City and Bohemian F.C.

If we take the current points totals and extrapolate them to a full (30 games) season then we get the following

1. Sligo Rovers - 64
2. Drogheda United - 51
3. St. Patricks Athletic - 51
4. Shamrock Rovers - 51
------------------------------
5. Derry City - 39
6. Bohemian FC - 36
7. Shelbourne - 35
8. Cork City - 34

Now in theory you have two very interesting play off stages between two sets of evenly matched teams. But the LOI gets 3 Europa League spots, and one of those is currently awarded to the FAI Cup winners.
So you would end up with Sligo as Champions, and one from St. Pats, Drogheda and Shamrock taking one Europa league spot with a second on offer to the highest placed team from the second set. Now the lowest of the top 4 finished 12 points clear of the highest of the second 4 in our example.

If you were in Shamrocks position around now, wouldn't you be better served by trying to drop into the second 4 to have in theory a better chance of getting into Europe? Even if you take the Europa league spot from the cup and give it to the top 4 teams you still end up with one team missing out.

What happens in a season where say Derry City have a total much closer to Shamrocks. Say they end of 49 points instead of 39. In the last few weeks of the season you have two teams on similar points totals in a situation where losing a game or two gives them a much better chance of getting into Europe as they would be playing off against much weaker opponents.

Of course this playoff system would work better if there were enough European spots for the top 4 plus the winner of the playoff for the second 4 without devaluing the FAI cup.

Perhaps you could resolve this by replacing Europe with the Setanta cup but right now it would appear that the Setanta just doesn't have the appeal (read: prize money)



.......... yep, thats what we need to heighten public interest - make it so complicated no one can understand it :rolleyes:

Anyone remember the 5,4,3,2,1 points system one season ? Early 80's I think.

[Real ale Madrid]

the team that comes 5th potentially has a much easier shot of getting into europe than the team in 4th - and thats my problem with this layout

Say we take this season as an example, we'll assume the top 4 remains as Sligo, Pats, Drogs and Shamrock.

5th to 8th ends up as Derry City, Shelbourne, Cork City and Bohemian F.C.

If we take the current points totals and extrapolate them to a full (30 games) season then we get the following

1. Sligo Rovers - 64
2. Drogheda United - 51
3. St. Patricks Athletic - 51
4. Shamrock Rovers - 51
------------------------------
5. Derry City - 39
6. Bohemian FC - 36
7. Shelbourne - 35
8. Cork City - 34

Now in theory you have two very interesting play off stages between two sets of evenly matched teams. But the LOI gets 3 Europa League spots, and one of those is currently awarded to the FAI Cup winners.
So you would end up with Sligo as Champions, and one from St. Pats, Drogheda and Shamrock taking one Europa league spot with a second on offer to the highest placed team from the second set. Now the lowest of the top 4 finished 12 points clear of the highest of the second 4 in our example.

If you were in Shamrocks position around now, wouldn't you be better served by trying to drop into the second 4 to have in theory a better chance of getting into Europe? Even if you take the Europa league spot from the cup and give it to the top 4 teams you still end up with one team missing out.

What happens in a season where say Derry City have a total much closer to Shamrocks. Say they end of 49 points instead of 39. In the last few weeks of the season you have two teams on similar points totals in a situation where losing a game or two gives them a much better chance of getting into Europe as they would be playing off against much weaker opponents.
Of course this playoff system would work better if there were enough European spots for the top 4 plus the winner of the playoff for the second 4 without devaluing the FAI cup.

Perhaps you could resolve this by replacing Europe with the Setanta cup but right now it would appear that the Setanta just doesn't have the appeal (read: prize money)

The thing about the proposal above is the fact that there are only 18 league games in total which gives a lot less leeway for teams to open up big gaps on each other.

As for the notion that a team may wish to drop from 4th to 5th - well is it easier to finish 3rd in the top 4 playoff or win the 5 to 8 playoff - thats a matter of opinion - but I know which I'd rather have a crack off anyway.

Agreed about the euro spots but you could take the euro spot away from the FAI cup for example. There would be plenty of other tweaks as well id imagine.

[Real ale Madrid]

- Edit - I have seen how this type of system has been done here in Belgium, and it seems to have transformed interest in an otherwise dying league system, something similar was tried in Holland with varying degrees of sucess - I think its something the FAI should take a close look at.

[Charlie Darwin]

Edit: I've just realised that with 19 teams, there are (19*18)/2 potential two-legged ties, or 171 head-to-head cups to compete for.
What's the problem?


The thing about the proposal above is the fact that there are only 18 league games in total which gives a lot less leeway for teams to open up big gaps on each other.

As for the notion that a team may wish to drop from 4th to 5th - well is it easier to finish 3rd in the top 4 playoff or win the 5 to 8 playoff - thats a matter of opinion - but I know which I'd rather have a crack off anyway.

Agreed about the euro spots but you could take the euro spot away from the FAI cup for example. There would be plenty of other tweaks as well id imagine.
Would we be the only country in Europe not to send its cup winner into Europe? In fact, I have a hunch it's a UEFA requirement.

[Dodge]

Presumably other countries get around teams intentionaally tanking to get a better shot of Europe by paying decent prize money based on league finishing positions?

So 4th gets you a fair bit more than 5th, with Europa League money not being that big a carrot for them?

In our case, the financial rewards of Europe way, way outstrip the difference in prize money for 1/2 league positions, so that could be a stumbling block

Its a UEFA requirement that the Cup is a european qualifier. And even if it wasn't I'd hate to see that removed

[Macy]

Not everyone will agree, traditionalists will cower at the prospect of playoffs. But I think everyone agrees something radical needs to be done and quick.
Well I think something along those lines would be more beneficial.

The model I prefer is a two conference system - north/ south, with Dublin carved up as necessary, which would reduce travel and maintain most derbies, and hopefully make it more attractive for clubs to want to join the league. It would also remove some of the financial temptations off clubs trying earn promotion/ avoid relegation.

Home and Away within the conference, and then an interconference series of games which would be home or away on a seasonal rotation (like the 3rd series in a 12 team league). That'd give 13 or 14 regular season games. And then play off's for Championship (Top 2 from each Conference) and then whole way down for the "trophy" (3rd and 4th from each), "Shield" (5th and 6th from each), "Plate" (7th and 8th from each). One massive finals day in Lansdowne for all the cups. 9th and 10th could play off for relegation if that was an option, which it might be with a regionalised structure but more realistically missing out on the play offs, and having play offs down as far as 8th place would maintain the incentive.

Play the FAI Cup off early season with a view to June Bank Holiday weekend Final.

[Macy]

Its a UEFA requirement that the Cup is a european qualifier. And even if it wasn't I'd hate to see that removed
Cup Winners Cup always rated higher than the UEFA Cup (if a team qualified for both they went into the CWC), so only right too!

[marinobohs]

Well I think something along those lines would be more beneficial.

The model I prefer is a two conference system - north/ south, with Dublin carved up as necessary, which would reduce travel and maintain most derbies, and hopefully make it more attractive for clubs to want to join the league. It would also remove some of the financial temptations off clubs trying earn promotion/ avoid relegation.

Home and Away within the conference, and then an interconference series of games which would be home or away on a seasonal rotation (like the 3rd series in a 12 team league). That'd give 13 or 14 regular season games. And then play off's for Championship (Top 2 from aach Conference) and then whole way down for the "trophy" (3rd and 4th from each), "Sheild" (5th and 6th from each), "Plate" (7th and 8th from each). One massive finals day in Lansdowne for all the cups. 9th and 10th could play off for relegation if that was an option, which it might be with a regionalised structure but more realistically missing out on the play offs, and having play offs down as far as 8th place would maintain the incentive.

Play the FAI Cup off early season with a view to June Bank Holiday weekend Final.

Interesting model Macy, somewhat similar to American football/ baseball idea except conferences based on geography. Possibly worth consideration but I would like the FAI Cup to be an all Ireland cup (FAI context) to allow trips to opposite/different juristiction

Would cut down on travel costs and while I think longer term a single geographical entity preferable it might do on a temporary basis.

[Real ale Madrid]

Home and Away within the conference, and then an interconference series of games which would be home or away on a seasonal rotation (like the 3rd series in a 12 team league). That'd give 13 or 14 regular season games. And then play off's for Championship (Top 2 from each Conference) and then whole way down for the "trophy" (3rd and 4th from each), "Shield" (5th and 6th from each), "Plate" (7th and 8th from each). One massive finals day in Lansdowne for all the cups. 9th and 10th could play off for relegation if that was an option, which it might be with a regionalised structure but more realistically missing out on the play offs, and having play offs down as far as 8th place would maintain the incentive.


I like that idea too

- its great that the debate is becoming more radical in terms of thinking - rather than weighing up a 10 or 12 team premier. I can't think of anything worse than all 19/20 teams in the 1 league with no relegation - I can't for the life of me see how that would be benefical in the long run.

[peadar1987]

What's the problem?


It's just that's a lot of cups to introduce! People might see it as a bit of a gimmick, which I suppose it is!

I think it would add to the sense of occasion if games in the second half of the season had something riding on them other than the difference between 14th and 13th, the chance of Wexford wrestling back the Diagonal Classic Trophy from Finn Harps for the first time in five seasons or something, but would simply trying to attach meaning to something that's already sort of a thing really work? Maybe it could also be a way of getting some more minor sponsorship from local businesses, "The North-West Derby Shield, sponsored by Donegal Creameries".

Okay, so the bigger clubs wouldn't particularly care about winning their tie against Mervue, but they're not really who the idea is aimed at, because usually, by the end of the season, they'd be competing for titles and European places.

[pineapple stu]

Should the first division not be an amateur league though ?
Well, yeah, maybe the First alright. Thought you meant the LoI overall.



There has been tinkering with the numbers of clubs - but nothing else really. Tinkering isn't what's needed anyway - the play-off systems I propose above, added to the major reduction in games is a completely new format, which has never been tried here before ( the spliting of the league in the mid 90's is completly different imo )
This is not true, though. There's been 10-team and 12-team leagues. There's been a big division of 16 teams. Format-wise, there's been a top-half bottom-half split (not too far removed from the idea of play-offs). There's been a 4-3-2-1 points system, with bonuses for away results. The League Cup and First Division Shield have been used as season openers. There's been lots of tinkering. I don't see any reason to suggest your proposals would have any effect either. It's all along the same lines.


It's just that's a lot of cups to introduce! People might see it as a bit of a gimmick, which I suppose it is!
Obvious solution is to have each club competing for one trophy. So split the games -

Derry v Harps
Galway v Sligo
Cork v Limerick
Waterford v Wexford
Rovers v Bohs
UCD v Bray
Longford v Athlone
Dundalk v Drogheda

etc, etc.

You won't keep everyone happy of course, and yes, it is completely gimmicky.

[gormacha]

Does anyone know whether the FAI has ever commissioned a serious, heavyweight piece of research into the various league models that are operating in other countries? Contextualising those models in the specific cultural, demographic, economic, social etc environments in which they play?

[pineapple stu]

The Genesis Report.

Oh wait; you said "serious". Sorry.

[gormacha]

Yeah, Genesis. Not that.

I'd love to see de Montfort in Leicester or some organisation of that standing be commissioned.

[El-Pietro]

The thing about the proposal above is the fact that there are only 18 league games in total which gives a lot less leeway for teams to open up big gaps on each other.

As for the notion that a team may wish to drop from 4th to 5th - well is it easier to finish 3rd in the top 4 playoff or win the 5 to 8 playoff - thats a matter of opinion - but I know which I'd rather have a crack off anyway.

Agreed about the euro spots but you could take the euro spot away from the FAI cup for example. There would be plenty of other tweaks as well id imagine.
It might be easier to finish 3rd in the top 4 than win the second 4, but the top four would still only get one Europa League spot, unless you take a spot from the Cup which is insanity. You can't devalue the Cup like that. We already have one League cup. We don't need two.

What if theres a gap between second and third and its tight from 3rd to 5th for example? Especially if the points carry over. Second might have all but wrapped up a European spot and 3rd and 4th have almost nothing to play for while 5th -8th have a euro spot to play for.

I'm not entirely against the play off suggestion, I just think you need to take these things into consideration or you end up with a system that is wildly unfair in certain situations.

[peadar1987]

I like that idea too

- its great that the debate is becoming more radical in terms of thinking - rather than weighing up a 10 or 12 team premier. I can't think of anything worse than all 19/20 teams in the 1 league with no relegation - I can't for the life of me see how that would be benefical in the long run.

I don't think it would be for the long run, it would be until such time as Irish football had its house in order enough to host a second tier, without it being a graveyard with less than ten teams (In my opinion, ten teams is pretty much the critical mass for a decent competitive league). It's not ideal, but for me it's better than leaving clubs in that horrible basement.

I like the two-conference system as well, I think it tries to combine the best of both worlds, while still maintaining sporting integrity. A team that finishes second in their conference can still win the league overall, but the fact that they're playing in a group with teams from the other conference will have softened this somewhat.

However, I can't see the big clubs going along with the idea. Shams won't want to give up their games against Derry and Sligo and replace them with Waterford and Athlone, and I don't think the prospect of a big attendance at the end of the season for the potential playoffs will swing them back.

Another criticism (although it's one that could equally be levelled at the single-tier model) is that it makes it difficult for new teams to break into the league. You'd go straight from playing junior football to playing Sligo Rovers, with no intermediate divisions.

Just to play fantasy football for a moment, the two conferences would look like:

North:
Finn Harps
Derry
Sligo
Dundalk
Drogheda
Longford
Bohs
Shels
SD Galway
Mervue

South:
Cork
Waterford
Wexford
Shams
Limerick
UCD
Bray
St. Pat's
Athlone

Perhaps with a few additions in the future if clubs could be enticed by the lower cost.

[Real ale Madrid]

This is not true, though. There's been 10-team and 12-team leagues. There's been a big division of 16 teams. same lines.

This is just tinkering - rearranging the desk chairs on the titanic.



Format-wise, there's been a top-half bottom-half split (not too far removed from the idea of play-offs). There's been a 4-3-2-1 points system, with bonuses for away results. lines.

These were both a long time ago to be fair - and perhaps not relavant to the discussion of the modern game? I do conceed that there have been changes in the past but this is something completly new imo.
I think the proposal has to be looked at in conjuntion with the significant reduction in the number of games, which, in my opinion completely changes the dynamic of the league. Right from the get go teams have to hit the groud running, that is an essential difference from tinkering with games and formats to specifically changing the importance of each and every one of the matches played. Its a fundamental change - maybe for better, but maybe for worse - we change the competition from a marathon to a series of 100m sprints.

Sports change and evolve as time goes on - much to dismay and chargin of traditionalists - the last ten years have seen fundamental changes to lots of sports for a variety of reasons - backdoor's in GAA, 20Twenty cricket, 6 red snooker, the emergence of playoff's and bonus points in rugby.

Football is such a global sport, so what works in one place won't work in another - we don't have the big money of the Premiership - but other leagues adapt and look for ways to maximise and captivate the audience. We in the Loi will become irrelevant if we don't make ourselves and our games more relevant - its not a question of are we willing to change?, but surely when will we change and what will be become of the league and its people when we do change.

[peadar1987]

Obvious solution is to have each club competing for one trophy. So split the games -

Derry v Harps
Galway v Sligo
Cork v Limerick
Waterford v Wexford
Rovers v Bohs
UCD v Bray
Longford v Athlone
Dundalk v Drogheda

etc, etc.

You won't keep everyone happy of course, and yes, it is completely gimmicky.

It is the obvious solution, and is a nice idea, but would only increase the attendances for that particular game. Which is still much better than nothing, but doesn't solve the problem of Bray v Waterford for 11th place being essentially meaningless to most supporters and players.

[Mr A]

he problems with clubs is idiots running them, budgeting on income without it being confirmed. That's what needs to change for clubs to stop going broke, not play-offs.



I'd agree up to a point. But I think at this stage in division one that boards can get most things right and still find the club in trouble. Expenditure can only be cut so far via wage cuts- the fixed costs of being in the league are very high.

In fairness things are probably going in the same direction in the premier.

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't think it would be for the long run, it would be until such time as Irish football had its house in order enough to host a second tier, without it being a graveyard with less than ten teams (In my opinion, ten teams is pretty much the critical mass for a decent competitive league). It's not ideal, but for me it's better than leaving clubs in that horrible basement.

I like the two-conference system as well, I think it tries to combine the best of both worlds, while still maintaining sporting integrity. A team that finishes second in their conference can still win the league overall, but the fact that they're playing in a group with teams from the other conference will have softened this somewhat.

However, I can't see the big clubs going along with the idea. Shams won't want to give up their games against Derry and Sligo and replace them with Waterford and Athlone, and I don't think the prospect of a big attendance at the end of the season for the potential playoffs will swing them back.

Another criticism (although it's one that could equally be levelled at the single-tier model) is that it makes it difficult for new teams to break into the league. You'd go straight from playing junior football to playing Sligo Rovers, with no intermediate divisions.

Just to play fantasy football for a moment, the two conferences would look like:

North:
Finn Harps
Derry
Sligo
Dundalk
Drogheda
Longford
Bohs
Shels
SD Galway
Mervue

South:
Cork
Waterford
Wexford
Shams
Limerick
UCD
Bray
St. Pat's
Athlone

Perhaps with a few additions in the future if clubs could be enticed by the lower cost.
Why Shels in the north and Athlone in the south?

[peadar1987]

Why Shels in the north and Athlone in the south?

Because I've only been in England a year and already my memories of Ireland are already turning to mush. Shels should probably stay in the north, but the two Galway clubs would switch to the south.

To be honest, the best way of doing it would be a mathematical analysis of travel times, rather than a simple north-south split. I'd also be concerned over breaking up too many derbies. As it is, the proposal splits up Bohs and Shams, which the Gardaí would love, but the fans mightn't be too happy about.

[A N Mouse]

How about South America for inspiration; some kind of Apertura - Clausura (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apertura_and_Clausura) based system.

Play each other once (home and away), but for opening, closing and overall championships. Overall champion qualifies for cl.

Some combination of 6-8 teams play off for 2 el slots (going further down for setanta spots)

2nd and 3rd overall, and next 2 highest from opening and closing championships.

With similarly styled system for relegation, if there somewhere to be relegated to.