Clubs divided over future LOI format?

**cheifo** · 24/08/2012, 11:29 PM

Article following last weeks league meeting. Didn't see this anywhere else , please delete mods if it is.

This would have been hotly debated on here a few years back. Have we all become we all battle weary?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...322861559.html

whoops just found this debate craftily concealed under last weeks score updates.

**geezer** · 25/08/2012, 9:29 AM

Its a debate that supporters direct reps in Ireland should be involved in. With trusts becoming central in the running of many clubs in the last few years hopefully the supporters views will be in the middle of the table and discussed.

**Spudulika** · 25/08/2012, 10:29 AM

Well next season there would be 20 clubs if what geezer and others from GUST have worked for comes to fruition. 20 teams is a perfect number, especially with 1 division operating. Next step is for the FAI and Junior clubs to man up and create competition.

**oriel** · 25/08/2012, 7:59 PM

Originally Posted by cheifo

Article following last weeks league meeting. Didn't see this anywhere else , please delete mods if it is.

This would have been hotly debated on here a few years back. Have we all become we all battle weary?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...322861559.html

whoops just found this debate craftily concealed under last weeks score updates.

I missed this, thx for posting Chief !

With regard to next season (and this is not just because we are currently bottom), I really think a single division Super League is the way forward, 12 team PD is ok but home twice, away once is a joke (for eg, we are away to Rovers, Derry, Cork, Sligo & Drogs TWICE this year, leaving only one home gate v them this season, all of these games would have been decent crowd pullers, actually it couldnt have worked out worse.)

10 is far too small, so why not go and expand it out to the provinces and have previous league winners like Athlone, Waterford & Limerick back into proper football. This would give these football towns & cities a massive boost. Finn Harps too, and possibly Longford also.

The obvious problem will be who to exlude, as the 11 current PD sides will all be first picks, then who do you take from the FD. Limerick, (def) Longford (prob) Waterford (prob) and the teams mentioned above. Is this too big ? maybe not.

Who does that leave behind? Wexford, Mervue, Salthill (SD Galway), would they have the appetite for another season ?

Then we have the problem of relegation from the single (super) league, relegated to where ?

A lot of questions, a lot of work to be done, also I would like to see a combined (and united, no pun) Galway side in at some stage, and Cobh too were treated very harshly over such a small debt when they were banished a few years ago.

So in principle, I do think a single division is the way forward, how its formed, who takes part/left out/relegation issue are all the obvious hard talking points.

Last point, I would also look into making a slight change to the season, not exactly killing off summer football, but adjusting it, starting the season off in Oct 1, missing out all of Jan, then going Feb to end of June. This would eliminate the poorly attended months of July & Aug. Clubs would still be playing (June) when their first euro game takes place, as opposed to the winter season, of having last played at the start of May.

**Spudulika** · 25/08/2012, 8:22 PM

Maybe there could be no relegation for 2-3 seasons, it would give the FAI and clubs times to build up a feeder system. 4 down 4 up, 1 from each province. I know some provinces are stronger than others, though it could help. Teams could choose not to be promoted, however if the league is flying a club would be nuts not to. But 2-3 years with no relegation would allow clubs to invest properly. Oh wait, I'm dreaming again.

**mypost** · 25/08/2012, 9:09 PM

Originally Posted by oriel

Last point, I would also look into making a slight change to the season, not exactly killing off summer football, but adjusting it, starting the season off in Oct 1, missing out all of Jan, then going Feb to end of June. This would eliminate the poorly attended months of July & Aug. Clubs would still be playing (June) when their first euro game takes place, as opposed to the winter season, of having last played at the start of May.

Not much point in having summer football without playing in July and August. We have it to facilitate clubs in Europe, in mid-season. It defeats the purpose of it if they're going into it at the end of the season, and they would have no break at all if they get to the August play-offs and beyond.

Crowds will be poor in winter as they will be in summer, unless the clubs change their own ways of doing things, which few if any are willing to do.

**White Horse** · 27/08/2012, 9:10 AM

In the current economic climate, a single tier is the only way forward. Low budgets and amateur players are no longer an obstacle to doind well. One only has to look at Drogheda, being in second place on a miniscule budget.

There aren't enough teams for two divisions. A single tier would also be more of a national league.

**adamd164** · 27/08/2012, 9:27 AM

7 teams is clearly unviable for the First Division, particularly if (as seems to be suggested in the Irish Times article) Mervue and SD Galway are still knocking about. Something will have to be done to address that.

If the first division could be bulked up either by dropping a couple of PD clubs or allowing in the likes of Cobh and Tralee, then I'd stick with the two tier system. This also has the advantage of minimizing the meaningless midtable (or even lower table) games that a large league would bring.

If the likes of Mervue and SD Galway were planning on hanging around with no other changes, then I'd scrap the 7 team league, put Galway Utd, Limerick, Longford, Finn Harps, Athlone and Waterford along with all current PD clubs into a 17 team league. Possibly split it midway through the season into top and bottom halves.

**marinobohs** · 27/08/2012, 10:36 AM

Saw an article by Pat Dolan last week around this (possibly in the Star ?) and he rightly points out that meddling with the structure of the League is simply the football equivelent of rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

A one tier league (as current two tier setup) will do nothing to improve standards and similarly nothing to stop the evaporation of crowds we are currently seeing.

Unless linked to a serious rebranding of the league and improving the battered image the League currently "enjoys" then tinkering around will do nothing to halt our decline.

**bluewhitearmy** · 27/08/2012, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by marinobohs

Saw an article by Pat Dolan last week around this (possibly in the Star ?) and he rightly points out that meddling with the structure of the League is simply the football equivelent of rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

A one tier league (as current two tier setup) will do nothing to improve standards and similarly nothing to stop the evaporation of crowds we are currently seeing.

Unless linked to a serious rebranding of the league and improving the battered image the League currently "enjoys" then tinkering around will do nothing to halt our decline.

Exactly some seem to think that just changing it to one league and everything will be fine. Its ridiculous change to one league and the teams that are in trouble now will still be in the exact same trouble.

**mypost** · 27/08/2012, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by White Horse

In the current economic climate, a single tier is the only way forward. A single tier would also be more of a national league.

It's not about the current economic climate, it's about the long term future of LOI football.

We had a single tier league until 1985. Teams came and went, crowds were low for years, pitches were terrible, facilities were much worse than now, and European success was a mere dream. It's not the solution.

**Macy** · 27/08/2012, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by bluewhitearmy

Exactly some seem to think that just changing it to one league and everything will be fine. Its ridiculous change to one league and the teams that are in trouble now will still be in the exact same trouble.

Who's saying everything will be fine? There's simple no viable alternative at the moment - it's the least worst option. Keeping the 1st at 7 or 8 is effectively condemning those clubs anyway in my view. And those running the league, including the premier division clubs, who don't like the idea have helped create the situation by insisting on what little media coverage there is, is entirely focused on the premier.

Originally Posted by geezer

Its a debate that supporters direct reps in Ireland should be involved in. With trusts becoming central in the running of many clubs in the last few years hopefully the supporters views will be in the middle of the table and discussed.

There's no agreement amongst fans, as shown by numerous threads here. The fact that Rovers are pushing the 10 team league shows that supporter run clubs still put their own clubs interest first.

What we need is vision and leadership from the FAI. If there was a plan, or decision to expand the first division next year then it would probably take the heat out of the debate. Every season there's a vacuum around the structure and which clubs are in which division and whether new teams are going to join the league*. Last year there were teams looking to join, but were blocked - for reasons that were never properly explained.

*Not entirely down to the FAI. Whatever about the pros and cons of summer football, there's no doubt it's helped make the league an administrative mess. Licencing is delayed too near the start of the following season because of how the league fits in with the financial year.

**Dodge** · 27/08/2012, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by White Horse

In the current economic climate, a single tier is the only way forward. Low budgets and amateur players are no longer an obstacle to doind well. One only has to look at Drogheda, being in second place on a miniscule budget.

So you're using the success fo a team in the two tiered structure to say that the league needs to go to one division? I don't get how they're connected.

Any structure without relegation would be a joke IMO. Whats the incentive for teams ranked 7-16 to play the season out? It ain't prize money...

Where do first division clubs like Waterford think their extra money will come from? 2/3 gates against the likes of Rovers, Sligo or Cork? I've yet top see any argument made for a one division league other than "we're dying here". What makes you think you won't die in the single division league?

**Macy** · 27/08/2012, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

Where do first division clubs like Waterford think their extra money will come from? 2/3 gates against the likes of Rovers, Sligo or Cork? I've yet top see any argument made for a one division league other than "we're dying here". What makes you think you won't die in the single division league?

Compared to the first, the 3 or 4 extra gates would make a big difference for the first division clubs. The way things have gone in the premier the last few years there's effectively been teams playing out the season anyway, either through accepting their fate or being willing to take the chance on another club screwing up licencing.

Personally I'd only ever want a single division to be a short term option, and much prefer two divisions. However, a seperate first division simply isn't viable without more teams in the league.

**Charlie Darwin** · 27/08/2012, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

So you're using the success fo a team in the two tiered structure to say that the league needs to go to one division? I don't get how they're connected.

Any structure without relegation would be a joke IMO. Whats the incentive for teams ranked 7-16 to play the season out? It ain't prize money...

What's the incentive for most teams to play now? The top four in the PD is more or less set, and the FD has been a three-horse race for months. UCD or Dundalk might have to face a play-off, if no other teams go bust.

**Jofspring** · 27/08/2012, 11:45 AM

7 teams would be a disaster. At the moment the average attendance in the first division is approx 250(?). If it was 7 teams with any two out of Longford, limerick and Waterford gone you can drop that again. You could possibly be looking at average attendances of about 100 people at a push. That is not a viable league. Until more teams are allowed the time to get up to speed and ready themselves for LOI like Cobh, Tralee, Carlow, Fanad or whoever else then we need to go to one division till then.

The only other solution I can see is add Tralee, Carlow, Cobh etc... Next season And regionalise the first division to get the costs down for those clubs. A big drop in the cost of entering the first division needs to happen to help them too. Everything should be done to help them enter the league. Maybe then down the line if clubs are stable enough to continue we can look at making it into a non regionalised first division again.

**Dodge** · 27/08/2012, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

What's the incentive for most teams to play now? The top four in the PD is more or less set, and the FD has been a three-horse race for months. UCD or Dundalk might have to face a play-off, if no other teams go bust.

Well Monaghan going bust put a bit of a dampener on it but generally teams in top 4 and bottom 4 in premier and top 3/4 in first have something to play for (league/europe/relegation/promotion). Is 10th v 12th in the one league really going to help bring in a crowd?

Honestly if the league is being run on the basis of 2/3 away crowds (which aren't massive either) then fiddling about with structure won't help

**Charlie Darwin** · 27/08/2012, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

Well Monaghan going bust put a bit of a dampener on it but generally teams in top 4 and bottom 4 in premier and top 3/4 in first have something to play for (league/europe/relegation/promotion). Is 10th v 12th in the one league really going to help bring in a crowd?

People aren't exactly falling over themselves to see Bray play Bohs at it is. The question isn't whether a one-tier league would be a panacea - it wouldn't - but whether it could play a role in improving standards across the board.

I don't think dead rubber fixtures are as big an issue as you think. There are far more compelling reasons for people to stay at home on a Friday or Monday night, and people do.

**gufc2000** · 27/08/2012, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by adamd164

If the likes of Mervue and SD Galway were planning on hanging around with no other changes, then I'd scrap the 7 team league, put Galway Utd, Limerick, Longford, Finn Harps, Athlone and Waterford along with all current PD clubs into a 17 team league. Possibly split it midway through the season into top and bottom halves.

A split? In a league where there's no relegation?

Imagine the appeal of those games in the bottom half.

I know it's been people are blue in the face from saying it, but until the strucutres below the Senior Leagues are organised properly, and some kind of feeder system is in place, then fiddling with the National League is futile.

**Dodge** · 27/08/2012, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

People aren't exactly falling over themselves to see Bray play Bohs at it is. The question isn't whether a one-tier league would be a panacea - it wouldn't - but whether it could play a role in improving standards across the board.

First part accepted, but how would a one team division make any positive difference to that?

I don't think dead rubber fixtures are as big an issue as you think. There are far more compelling reasons for people to stay at home on a Friday or Monday night, and people do.

I wasn't talking about dead rubbers purely from a crowds num,ber point of view, I was talking more about the level of play in those games. Call it sporting integrity if you want to gove it a wanky title.

And to clarify, I'm not suggesting that 7 or 8 teams in a division is in any way a good thing.